Acoustic amp?

Uncle Neil

I'm a guitar player, but not a technical nut...I don't know a whole lot about amps/pedals/effects etc. I've been told that you need an acoustic amp for an acoustic guitar, as an electric amp won't quite do it justice. I've got a Vox 30w modelling amp that my acoustic sounds decent out of, but I've plugged in to Fishmans and a Fender Acoustasonic and they sound amazing. However, I plugged in to a Marshall stack the other night at an open mic night and it sounded really great as well.

My question is whether or not it's necessary to have two different amps for acoustic and electric, or is there a way to play through the same amp (not necessarily my Vox, but maybe just a standard Marshall) and get a more pure acoustic sound with a pedal?

mccreadyisgod

Generally speaking, a proper acoustic amp will give better results for an acoustic guitar because an acoustic amp is essentially a small full-range PA, with a woofer and tweeter combo to produce the full range of an acoustic guitar. Electric guitar amps are much more limited in their frequency range, which produces the signature sound of an electric guitar (it's why they put a mic in front of the amp rather than use a signal line-out). Typically, electric guitar amps don't produce the clean, clear highs of an acoustic guitar because they lack a tweeter.

Many new bass combo amps have tweeters built in, and almost all keyboard amps do as well. These are often an affordable way to find an "acoustic" amp.

That said, if you are okay with how your acoustic sounds through an electric guitar amp, don't worry too much about it. You'll have better luck, typically, with solid-state amps (I actually like acoustics through a Roland Jazz Chorus, aka the JC-90 and JC-120). You can also help the tone by cranking up the treble on the amp when playing acoustic, and then turning back down for electric.

The last option, and what MOST people actually do, is to use a Direct Injection (DI) box for your acoustic into the PA system. You can get the little Rolls IMP2 DI for about $30, or a really nice LR Baggs DI for like $200. This only works if you have the PA system... but it's what almost every gigging acoustic musician does.

lucylespian

Technically, a dedicated acoustic amp should produce the best results, but as you have discovered, an electric amp can sound good enough.
Funnily, there are always new acoustic amps coming out, all claiming to be the final solution to the complex problem of amplifying an acoustic guitar.
Clearly none of them are perfect yet, so I would not be too worried about going that way.
A guy plugged his cheap acoustic into the clean channel of my Bad Cat recently, and was blown away by how good it sounded. The voicing is quite Vox like, so I would really be trying it out on your Vox, and would expect it to sound very very good.
Roland has a groovy amp which actually "rings out the room", by sending out pulses of sound, analying the return signal, and eq-ing out offending frequencies.
If I was looking for a dedicated acoutic amp, that's what I would be looking for.
Gimme a minute, and I'll dig up a link if I can.

lucylespian

Not sure if it is this one

http://www.roland.com/products/en/AC-60/specs.html

or this one

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=899&ParentId=57

Actually, I think it's both. It's the anti-feedback feature I think, the bane of acoustic players. I would have thought the pick-ups which occlude the sound-hole would reduce feedback a lot too, but I'm not sure.

Uncle Neil

Thanks a lot for the info, i will definitely look into it. Any other suggestions are totally welcome. I'd like to start maybe start gigging solo. I play a lot of open mic nights and always get a lot of compliments from friends and strangers alike, and have been invited up to play with bands at their gigs because they were impressed with me at the open mic nights and whatnot. People always ask me when I'm going to start gigging, so I've really been thinking about it. I even know some owners of bars that have heard me play and said they'd hire me any time. I'm not saying I'll be signing any record deals or anything like that, but I'm pretty sure I'm good enough to take it to the next step. I'm trying to find a setup (amp/PA/whatever else) that will allow me to play a bar and fill the room. I don't want to skimp and buy all the cheap crap, but my pockets aren't bottomless either, so I'm just trying to find kind of the best bang for the buck that will last me in the long run. I know I'm getting a little off topic, but I'm just trying to figure out what kind of setup most other people are using and also what to stay away from.

All the info thus far has really been helpful though, thanks again.

ledvedderman

I'm glad someone asked this question.

I've been playing guitar, uke, and piano together for about eight years now, and while I know how to play all three to a "t", however, when it comes to the setting for my amp, how to get a good sound, or what all the knobs mean on my amp---I'm at a complete loss. Does anyone know a website for idiots like myself?

lucylespian

ledvedderman wrote:

I'm glad someone asked this question.

I've been playing guitar, uke, and piano together for about eight years now, and while I know how to play all three to a "t", however, when it comes to the setting for my amp, how to get a good sound, or what all the knobs mean on my amp---I'm at a complete loss. Does anyone know a website for idiots like myself?

http://www.thegearpage.net , you can't go wrong.

mccreadyisgod

Uncle Neil wrote:

I'm trying to find a setup (amp/PA/whatever else) that will allow me to play a bar and fill the room. I don't want to skimp and buy all the cheap crap, but my pockets aren't bottomless either, so I'm just trying to find kind of the best bang for the buck that will last me in the long run. I know I'm getting a little off topic, but I'm just trying to figure out what kind of setup most other people are using and also what to stay away from.

If you're looking to play bars that don't have their own PA system, you'll need a couple of small PA speakers, a small mixer, a monitor, and amps for everything, plus the mic and cables. You can pretty easily spend over $1000 to do this, so it's not an easy investment.

I would recommend getting a pair of Mackie SRM350's for the PA, a Mackie SRM350 for your monitor, and a smaller Mackie or Soundcraft mixer with about 8 channels. The speakers are powered, so you wouldn't need separate amps. A Shure SM58 for vocals, a Whirlwind DI Box, and some cables, and you'd be set.


http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Mackie-SRM350-2Way-Active-PA-Speaker?sku=605268

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Mackie-1202VLZ3-Compact-Mixer-120V-?sku=630131V

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Shure-SM58-Mic?sku=270101

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Whirlwind-IMP-2-Standard-Direct-Box?sku=184302

Let's see... that's $40 for the DI, $100 for the mic, $250 for the mixer, $400 per speaker... $1600 total for a small PA. Plus figure about $100 for cables, and I'd get a mic stand and two speaker stands, figure $100 for those... $1800 total.

How about system 2? A Soundcraft GigRac powered PA head, a few passive speakers, some cable, mic and DI.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Soundcraft-GigRac-600-8Channel-Powered-Mixer?sku=630924

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Yamaha-BR12-12-2Way-Speaker-Cabinet?sku=601212

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Yamaha-BR12M-12-2Way-Monitor?sku=601214


$400 for the Soundcraft mixer, $220 for the PA speakers, $230 for the monitor, $100 mic, $40 DI, $100 in cables, $100 for stands. That's $1310.

Some stuff you can pick up used on Craig's List or eBay or pawn shops or music stores. And there are always budget-priced package PA systems for sale out there, although I don't like the quality of most of them. Some of the "acoustic" amps actually have inputs for both an acoustic guitar and a vocal mic, and that might work for you if you're playing very small venues (like 50 or so people).

But the big thing to figure out first, before you spend a bunch of money, is whether the places you are playing have their own PA systems. If they do, then just show up with your guitar and an instrument cable, and the PA should do the rest.

samquigley

lucylespian wrote:

I would have thought the pick-ups which occlude the sound-hole would reduce feedback a lot too, but I'm not sure.

Occlude? Nice one, luce. Well played, sir.

lucylespian

biffhardon wrote:

Occlude? Nice one, luce. Well played, sir.

OK, confused now. I'm referring to the type of acoustic pick-up that looks like a lid bunging the soundhole.


If there's a joke, I'm not in on it.

reaching hands

i've started plugging my tanglewood electro-acoustic into my laney vc30 tube amp and you can get some pretty nice sounds specially if you flick on the 'bright' switch on the clean channel you get the nice 'jeff buckley shimmer' sound' and its sound good with the spring reverb.

the reason i tried cos i've joined a band who's initial material is acoustic based but i play 99% electric...i tried playing it with the gain channel like i've seen jack white doing lately, and if you can negate the feedback it sounds pretty good because the acoustic sound still cuts through the fuzz, plus playing it with a boss dd6 or something similar...its a different world!

samquigley

lucylespian wrote:

OK, confused now. I'm referring to the type of acoustic pick-up that looks like a lid bunging the soundhole.


If there's a joke, I'm not in on it.

Sounds like you're describing a Feedback Buster, but yes, there certainly are some pickups that fit across the soundhole. My comment, however, was referring to the word "occlude". And "bunging"? Impressive. Do you, like, write the dictionary?

who's_pearljam?

McCreadyisGod, you're a gentleman and a scholar for spending that much time putting those lists together and that's great advice!
I'm looking to help a friend set up a coffee shop system and that's exactly the thing. Thanks for your acoustic engineer advice again!

That Roland Chorus is a nice amp, Lucy. I was checking one out, but I didn't feel like carrying yet another amp around but if you're doing acoustic solo and singing, that's a great amp because it has a line for the guitar and for a mike, with phantom power for your Shure 57 or 58 which all guitarists are required to own.
If it's not enough power to play over the audience talking, do what a friend of mine does. He stops playing for a few seconds, even right in the middle of a song, and then says,,,, "Uhhhhm,,,, shut the F* up!" Then goes on playing.

If you end up occasionally playing with a band, you probably will need monitors and all, but if you ARE playing with a band, it's more likely there will be a PA involved and that DI Box McCready talked about is great and perhaps all you'll need.

That would be the Roland 60, a vocal mike Shure 58, cables and a DI Box and you're good to go.

If you can find a cheap used Roland Jazz Chorus, like MIG said, they're really great for that. You can EQ them to sing through them, too.

I used to tour with a guy who used one for his acoustic amp and his funky clean guitar sounds.

Check out the last seconds of this clip to see what produced the famous feedback on this genius song from a genius performer:

Edit, forgot to put the link in! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzEadbTCKDA

Acoustic guitar > Roland Jazz Chorus

If you don't have it, you might as well get the whole DVD!

lucylespian

biffhardon wrote:

Sounds like you're describing a Feedback Buster, but yes, there certainly are some pickups that fit across the soundhole. My comment, however, was referring to the word "occlude". And "bunging"? Impressive. Do you, like, write the dictionary?

Aaaaaaargggggghhhh, aye me hearties, I've been getting teased aboot using me big wordies since I were a lad before the mast.

But them big wordies took me from living in a tent to doctoring school, and I be calling em me friends.

ianvomsaal

lucylespian wrote:

Aaaaaaargggggghhhh, aye me hearties, I've been getting teased aboot using me big wordies since I were a lad before the mast.

But them big wordies took me from living in a tent to doctoring school, and I be calling em me friends.

Hmmm, weren’t you the one that ridiculed me for using words you didn't know (like truculent and fatuous) a few months ago.
Hypocrisy - Look who's under the scope now - a bit sanctimonious don't you think.

lucylespian

ianvomsaal wrote:

Hmmm, weren’t you the one that ridiculed me for using words you didn't know (like truculent and fatuous) a few months ago.
Hypocrisy - Look who's under the scope now - a bit sanctimonious don't you think.

Um, listen, twinks, I'm pretty sure you have the wrong guy here. I'm quite aware of what truculent and fatuous mean.
Having been teased for a lot of my younger life for using economical big words, rather than a bunch of inefficient little ones, I'm disinclined to baggingpeople out for that.

"Occlude" is hardly the most obscure word in the dictionary.

I did take a lump out of you for something, for which you called me an asshole and a dick though. Sometihng to do with spam I think, though just what the difference is betweemn a link in a sig and the topic in question. I'm not sure.

ianvomsaal

lucylespian wrote:

Um, listen, twinks, I'm pretty sure you have the wrong guy here. I'm quite aware of what truculent and fatuous mean.
Having been teased for a lot of my younger life for using economical big words, rather than a bunch of inefficient little ones, I'm disinclined to baggingpeople out for that.

"Occlude" is hardly the most obscure word in the dictionary.

I did take a lump out of you for something, for which you called me an asshole and a dick though. Sometihng to do with spam I think, though just what the difference is betweemn a link in a sig and the topic in question. I'm not sure.

Sorry, my recollection was wrong, it was StuffnJunk - and I was poking fun in jest.
You're still an asshole (turning this into a fight and calling me a fag).
Read your signature about "internet fights . . . retard."

Uncle Neil

Some really great info here, thanks for all of the input.

who's_pearljam?

Uncle Neil wrote:

Some really great info here, thanks for all of the input.

Cheers! Good luck playing, Uncle Neil!

Neil is one of my musical heroes. (If that's the same Neil you're talking about! )

Sorry that your thread on a musician's board turned sour so fast with insults towards others, and also bringing derogatory terms for gay people and mentally challenged as insults.
That's not the way I operate in life.That's not how I was raised. I was raised in an atmosphere of tolerance and have tried my very best to live my life that way. I've been here since the end of 2003 and this has been a place where people could freely ask questions without fear of ridicule. I've learned a lot here from some knowledgeable people and maybe passed on some of my knowledge.

Peace!

FinsburyParkCarrots

Apart from the nonsense on this thread, I've found it very useful. I used to have a blonde Westfield amp, with built-in stereo chorus. It was supposed to be acoustic, anyway. Man, I overdrove that sucker. It caught fire in the end! Hahaha.

who's_pearljam?

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Apart from the nonsense on this thread, I've found it very useful. I used to have a blonde Westfield amp, with built-in stereo chorus. It was supposed to be acoustic, anyway. Man, I overdrove that sucker. It caught fire in the end! Hahaha.

Fins! Now THAT'S rock and roll when you smoke an acoustic amp! Cheers to that!

FinsburyParkCarrots

who's_pearljam? wrote:

Fins! Now THAT'S rock and roll when you smoke an acoustic amp! Cheers to that!

I did have my twelve string soundhole pickup plugged into a Vox Wah, Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face,BOSS Heavy Metal pedal (I think it was BOSS), Marshall Guv'nor Boost pedal, Guyatone TZ-The Fuzz, DOD phaser, DOD envelope filter, flanger (I forget the make) and my old Yamaha delay at the time, so maybe that didn't help too much.

ianvomsaal

- Anyhow . . . generally speaking acoustic guitars typically sound best through some type of PA beacuse of their flat response, which is why most acoustic amps handle vocals fine. Most acoustic amps have a preamp in them geared towards the guitar which allow for a richer more controllable guitar tone than just a PA.

- That said, most PA's handle acoustic guitars very very well - I've only used acoustic amps a few times because there was just no need for them (and especially if there's a decent preamp available - or if your guitar doesn't have a pre-amp you like - This one is actually nice (and used by many pros): http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/LR-Baggs-Para-Acoustic-DI?sku=307160.

- If you're looking to get a nice sounding acoustic amp at a fairly "easy on the pocket" price, this one sounds great for the $$$ - a lot of bigger venues in San Diego and LA actually run these into a PA with the optional extension cab as a monitor: https://www.carvinguitars.com/products/single.php?product=AG100D

- I've also used these acoustic amps with great success (however, the prices typically start at almost double the AG100D):
Rivera Sedona, SWR California Blonde, Fender Acoustasonic SFX, L.R. Baggs Core 1.
Again, you can get away with plugging into a PA with similar results (minus the specific guitar related controls like a notch, phase, ground, presence).

FinsburyParkCarrots

ianvomsaal wrote:

- Anyhow . . . generally speaking acoustic guitars typically sound best through some type of PA beacuse of their flat response, which is why most acoustic amps handle vocals fine. Most acoustic amps have a preamp in them geared towards the guitar which allow for a richer more controllable guitar tone than just a PA.

- That said, most PA's handle acoustic guitars very very well - I've only used acoustic amps a few times because there was just no need for them (and especially if there's a decent preamp available - or if your guitar doesn't have a pre-amp you like - This one is actually nice (used by many pros): http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/LR-Baggs-Para-Acoustic-DI?sku=307160).

- If you're looking to get a nice sounding acoustic amp at a fairly "easy on the pocket" price, this one sounds great for the $$$ - a lot of bigger venues in San Diego and LA actually run these into a PA with the optional extension cab as a monitor: https://www.carvinguitars.com/products/single.php?product=AG100D

- I've also used these acoustic amps with great success (however, the prices typically start at almost double the AG100D):
Rivera Sedona, SWR California Blonde, Fender Acoustasonic SFX, L.R. Baggs Core 1.
Again, you can get away with plugging into a PA with similar results (minus the specific guitar related controls like a notch, phase, ground, presence).

However, it has to be asked, what about acoustic guitars going through effects pedals, and out through DI to the sound desk? I've heard odd stories about PA systems bypassing effects and losing volume and tone: that loss happened at the flip of a switch on the desk. And I'm talking about nationally-gigging but fairly unknown acoustic artists, playing venues across the UK. Your guess is as good as mine as to what might have killed the sound, if the pedals and guitar were okay. I've not had that happen to me, but I have thought, sometimes, that a good acoustic backline is a safeguard against weird fuckups or incompetence by soundpeople who are supposed to know what they're doing.

ianvomsaal

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

However, it has to be asked, what about acoustic guitars going through effects pedals, and out through DI to the sound desk? I've heard odd stories about PA systems bypassing effects and losing volume and tone: that loss happened at the flip of a switch on the desk. And I'm talking about nationally-gigging but fairly unknown acoustic artists, playing venues across the UK. Your guess is as good as mine as to what might have killed the sound, if the pedals and guitar were okay. I've not had that happen to me, but I have thought, sometimes, that a good acoustic backline is a safeguard against weird fuckups or incompetence by soundpeople who are supposed to know what they're doing.

Hmm, let me think. Well one thing that might help this would be a good DI/Preamp like the LR Baggs EQ I mentioned - I can't think of what would have killed their signal except for unskilled soundguys, improper routing, impedance mismatches of the PA inputs and the guitar pickup(s), bad cables, a bad DI, or a dead battery. I've shared large stages with national acts playing my 814CE Taylor (with the older onboard Fishman blender), and I've never had any dropout problems - and I almost always run Boss pedals (TU-2, CE-5, DD-6, and sometimes a TS-9 and RC-20) through a good DI (for long signal lengths) to the board - maybe the DI they were using didn't handle effects well - I always try to carry a good DI with me for this reason since a lot of sound guys only have cheap DI's, and sometimes those DI's don't match with your equipment well - I mean why play through a crappy DI - it's your sound, if it's important to you make sure you're sending a good signal.
I was talking with Dave Matthews a few years ago about feedback problems and such on big stages (since he plays on huge stages all the time) - He runs wireless all the time - first and foremost he's got great sound guys (said he drives his stage monitor tech nuts because he's always moving around) - His signal runs through a great pre-amp, EQ, harmonizer, and into an audio splitter, one side goes through more processors before the PA, and the other side goes to a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe or Matchless DC-30 (which is Mic'd in an isolation cabinet). I don't remember him saying he had any problems with dropouts - I'm sure he would have said if he had had any dropout issues since I asked about any other problems (other than feedback issues with so many instruments on stage).

mccreadyisgod

If we're recommending good acoustic amps now, I would throw my support behind Fishman's Loudbox amps, as well as the Genz Benz Shenandoah stuff.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/navigation?q=Fishman+Loudbox&st=

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/navigation?q=Genz+Benz+Shenandoah+&st=

lucylespian

I just want to be quite clear that "twinks" is not a reference to sexuality in any way. A Twinky is a lightweight snack with no substance.

I didn't really appreciate being falsely accused of something I did not do, and being repeatedly insulted by Mr Ian vom Saal. Ian didn't like it when I took issue with him raging against a PJ tribute band promoting their concerts here, so he's looking for a chance to get me back.
Truth is, the link in his sig is as much spam as anything. I don't really have a problem with that, it's no big deal.


Anyone else here OK with having false accusations made against them, and words put in their posts they did not say ???

No, didn't think so !!

Over and out !!