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how much music theory do you really need?

Meine liebeMeine liebe Posts: 203
edited July 2006 in Musicians and Gearheads
I have played guitar for about 5 years now and sometimes I get really frustrated when it comes to my songwriting. I know I am getting better the more I play but I sometimes wonder if learning music theory would help.

I never have taken the time to learn any theory. I have always relied on my ear and most of the time it gets the job done.....but i am starting to realize that I am no hendrix and I cant just play everything by ear. It is painful to jam with other musicians that know where you are trying to go with a song and figure it out before you do. So where do I start and what are the basics that i really need?
I used to do drugs. I still do, but I used to, too.

Mitch Hedberg
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  • harrisonmerwinharrisonmerwin Posts: 766
    Meine leibe wrote:
    I have played guitar for about 5 years now and sometimes I get really frustrated when it comes to my songwriting. I know I am getting better the more I play but I sometimes wonder if learning music theory would help.

    I never have taken the time to learn any theory. I have always relied on my ear and most of the time it gets the job done.....but i am starting to realize that I am no hendrix and I cant just play everything by ear. It is painful to jam with other musicians that know where you are trying to go with a song and figure it out before you do. So where do I start and what are the basics that i really need?

    People will suggest lessons, but youve probly played enough you just need refining. May i Suggest an amazing book, i learned guitar then theory,a nd this is the only book that made it all perfectly clear. Its "Fretboard logic" by Bill Edwards. ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0962477060/104-3401173-9703118?v=glance&n=283155 ) This book really shows the relationships between chords, barre chords, scales, keys, etc. This book honestly took me from a good player, to a great player in a couple of weeks. It is written in a very "matter of fact" way and is extremely easy to follow. Its different from regular books because it fits every style, and teaches you what you need to know. Any guitar player shoudl by it, and then "graduate" to book two. Once you learn all the scales, how chords are made and what not, its really easy to just pickup and find or create an interesting chord or solo progression

    now on the jimi hendrix note! he is a very mythological guitar player, and i think mythbusters (myself) should bring some light to the situation. Yes he could improv untill the cows came home, but he wasn't "tripping on acid and going nuts". He is infact a very skilled player, and knew the fretboard like many wish they could. Just watching hours of videos on him and whatnot, you can tell he knows exactly what he is playing, and technically too. You could never teach yourself that style of guitar "by ear" or by "tripping on drugs". Some of his methods did include mysterious techniques (colour hearing) but when it comes down to it, he had a very good theory method he worked off of. He's one of the best at playing chord progressions in a low octave, then between chord changes making lightning fast trills above the twelvth fret, then heading back to the next chord. His tactics liek that are increddible, and are way beyond the skill of even my playing, he just attacks the neck like he knows exactly where to play....because he does know exactly where to play. Dont let people walk all over Jimi and call him a drugged up guitar fluke, he was increddibly skilled and tactical in his playing.

    Harrison

    ps. Jimi is awesome
    2005.09.04
    2005.09.05

    "how many people did die from that?...did P.Diddy kill them?" - Eddie Vedder 2006.02.19
  • leethalleethal Posts: 134
    To the thread starter; i feel the same way as you do. Only ive been playing for 2 years not 5. Im ready to write more songs beyond just imitating songs and riffs i already know

    To the poster above i agree with what you said about jimi and ill check out that bill edwards book.

    Cheers
  • enharmonicenharmonic Posts: 1,917
    There's more than one school of thought when it comes to this. My particular opinion is that you have to know the rules before you can break them :)
    new music: http://www.myspace.com/blackbirdsymphonique

    old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
  • BinFrogBinFrog Posts: 7,309
    If you have the discipline, read tutorials online and buy books (the Karl Aranjo books are great), but if you can't read theory for more than 2 mins without getting distracted you should really look into taking lessons. I tried learning on my own for years, and after playing for around 10 years I finally bit the bullet and started taking lessons around a year and a half ago. Best thing I ever did.
    Bright eyed kid: "Wow Typo Man, you're the best!"
    Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
  • gobrowns19gobrowns19 Posts: 1,447
    1.)I'm sorta in the same boat as the original poster.

    2.) A big thank you to Harrison for his vast knowledge. I am now going to pick that book up. :)
    Happiness is only real when shared
  • harrisonmerwinharrisonmerwin Posts: 766
    gobrowns19 wrote:
    1.)I'm sorta in the same boat as the original poster.

    2.) A big thank you to Harrison for his vast knowledge. I am now going to pick that book up. :)

    "vast knowledge"....i just say what i think woudl best work for you guys, cause in a lot of cases i have used it myself, and just know how most of it compliments a player.
    2005.09.04
    2005.09.05

    "how many people did die from that?...did P.Diddy kill them?" - Eddie Vedder 2006.02.19
  • NovawindNovawind Posts: 836
    My lessons are half music theory and half technique so far.
    If idle hands are the devil's workshop, he must not be very productive.

    7/9/06 LA 1
    7/10/06 LA 2
    10/21/06 Bridge 1
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    Neither SRV or Hendrix knew any theory. Theory helps, but it all comes down to feel IMO.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • exhaustedexhausted Posts: 6,638
    i think i'll check out that book. i'm in the rut too.

    i think feel takes you from playing like a robot to something artistic. ie. pure shredding sucks.

    but you still have to know where to go and how.
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    exhausted wrote:
    i think i'll check out that book. i'm in the rut too.

    i think feel takes you from playing like a robot to something artistic. ie. pure shredding sucks.

    but you still have to know where to go and how.

    I think it is harder to play slow than to play fast...
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • exhaustedexhausted Posts: 6,638
    i certainly enjoy listening to slower, melodic solos more than the fast runs.

    the fast runs are never a good thing. bad with a guitar too.
  • LikeLukinLikeLukin Posts: 29
    leethal wrote:
    To the thread starter; i feel the same way as you do. Only ive been playing for 2 years not 5. Im ready to write more songs beyond just imitating songs and riffs i already know

    To the poster above i agree with what you said about jimi and ill check out that bill edwards book.

    Cheers

    haha, i feel the same way and I've been playing for 14 years. I'm just too lazy to learn new stuff, i just wanna dive straight into writing songs, which isn't the best idea.
  • J.D.J.D. Posts: 73
    SRV and Jimi may have not know theory in the traditional sense, but they sure knew their scales, note to chord relationships and how to play within the contex of music theory. For example, I'm sure you could have said to either one, "slow blues in B" and everything would have shaken out just fine.

    I can't read music to save my life, but without some bits of musical theory we would all be lunatics with picks.

    I also don't have anything against a little fast run here and there. The aforementioned SRV knew how to add them with a touch I'll be searching for forever.
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    J.D. wrote:
    SRV and Jimi may have not know theory in the traditional sense, but they sure knew their scales, note to chord relationships and how to play within the contex of music theory. For example, I'm sure you could have said to either one, "slow blues in B" and everything would have shaken out just fine.

    I can't read music to save my life, but without some bits of musical theory we would all be lunatics with picks.

    I also don't have anything against a little fast run here and there. The aforementioned SRV knew how to add them with a touch I'll be searching for forever.

    I thought he meant theory as in reading music. In the case of patterns, they knew what they were doing.. And yes, SRV had the magic touch.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • deadnotedeadnote Posts: 1,678
    i have this book at home i should learn because as a guitar strummer ive written a good twenty songs and i dont know what key therye in or what the heck im doin

    not sure i even replied as i have no answer to your postion
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  • J.D.J.D. Posts: 73
    keeponrockin wrote:
    I thought he meant theory as in reading music. In the case of patterns, they knew what they were doing.. And yes, SRV had the magic touch.


    Yeah, maybe I misunderstood his question. I don't think that being able to read music off a page will help you be a better songwriter.

    I often come with a riff or progression I think is cool and then I'm lost. That's when it's good to have someone else around to kinda bring some fresh angles to what you already have. Otherwise , I let it sit, and come back to it when I'm ready.

    I have about 12 tracks with the title 'Idea-X' in my Cakewalk folder.
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    J.D. wrote:
    Yeah, maybe I misunderstood his question. I don't think that being able to read music off a page will help you be a better songwriter.

    I often come with a riff or progression I think is cool and then I'm lost. That's when it's good to have someone else around to kinda bring some fresh angles to what you already have. Otherwise , I let it sit, and come back to it when I'm ready.

    I have about 12 tracks with the title 'Idea-X' in my Cakewalk folder.

    I need to learn more theory as in like the notes on the fretboard, I'm sorta 'Boxed in' right now.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • J.D.J.D. Posts: 73
    keeponrockin wrote:
    I need to learn more theory as in like the notes on the fretboard, I'm sorta 'Boxed in' right now.

    I was stuck in the 1st position minor pentatonic box for years. It got sickening. I made up a little track in the key of A to practice with. Next I wrote up big pages with all of the scale forms and used one of the forms while soloing over that track. After a while, things came together.

    I've now got all the forms of the full major scale up listed with the mode they correspond to. I just need to come up with a better backing to get more use out of the extra notes.

    It's seems learing how to play is never ending. I think it's what keeps my drive going after playing all these years.
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    J.D. wrote:
    I was stuck in the 1st position minor pentatonic box for years. It got sickening. I made up a little track in the key of A to practice with. Next I wrote up big pages with all of the scale forms and used one of the forms while soloing over that track. After a while, things came together.

    I've now got all the forms of the full major scale up listed with the mode they correspond to. I just need to come up with a better backing to get more use out of the extra notes.

    It's seems learing how to play is never ending. I think it's what keeps my drive going after playing all these years.

    I move it up and down, it's just not coming together yet... I love to play, so I'm not giving up, it just gets frusturating. Basically, if I'm in E, I play in about 4 different positions, but what I really need is new licks.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • MichaelMcKevinMichaelMcKevin Posts: 1,161
    keeponrockin wrote:
    I think it is harder to play slow than to play fast...

    In a sense i agree with that. It's much harder to write a solo that's slow and fits the song (ie. Come Back and I Am Mine) than it is to just wail away (ie. Evenflow)...


    That's why i appreciate those drummers out there who just lay it down with a little style rather than assholes like Travis Barker who play so fast and loud for songs that need nothing of the sort.
    Camden I '06, Camden II '06, Bonnaroo '08, Camden I '08, Camden II '08, Philly Spectrum II/III/IV '09, MSG I '10, MSG II '10, Made In America '12, Wrigley '13, Brooklyn II '13, Philly I '13, Philly II '13, ...
  • harrisonmerwinharrisonmerwin Posts: 766
    just a note...

    this books does not teach you how to play yoru instrument, it shows the dynamics of how and why the fretboard is the way it is, and it allows you to link together the peices of how and why chords are made, and the different solo keys and modes. It does show the basics, and the layout of the book is nice how once you understand one page, you flip it, and the next page builds nice, this is a beautiful book to build your theory foundation on (it has nothing to do with sheet music and notation, its guitar specific) and any level can find the page where they think they are at, then move forward from there. Most stores has this series of books, and i even think he has a DVD now for them. PLEASE get the book, you will love it.
    2005.09.04
    2005.09.05

    "how many people did die from that?...did P.Diddy kill them?" - Eddie Vedder 2006.02.19
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    harrisonmerwin wrote:
    just a note...

    this books does not teach you how to play yoru instrument, it shows the dynamics of how and why the fretboard is the way it is, and it allows you to link together the peices of how and why chords are made, and the different solo keys and modes. It does show the basics, and the layout of the book is nice how once you understand one page, you flip it, and the next page builds nice, this is a beautiful book to build your theory foundation on (it has nothing to do with sheet music and notation, its guitar specific) and any level can find the page where they think they are at, then move forward from there. Most stores has this series of books, and i even think he has a DVD now for them. PLEASE get the book, you will love it.

    I think I'll pick it up. Thanks for the tip Harrison!
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • Paulo DinizPaulo Diniz Posts: 22
    I Think like this:
    You can play very well without theory but with it you can reach easier to places thar you can't never reach without theory. The same for speed... you don't have to play very quick like malmsteen & Co.... but if you can do it, better for your playing.
    _____________________
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    Marseille, 09/09/06
    Paris, 09/11/06
  • mca47mca47 Posts: 13,282
    harrisonmerwin wrote:
    just a note...

    this books does not teach you how to play yoru instrument, it shows the dynamics of how and why the fretboard is the way it is, and it allows you to link together the peices of how and why chords are made, and the different solo keys and modes. It does show the basics, and the layout of the book is nice how once you understand one page, you flip it, and the next page builds nice, this is a beautiful book to build your theory foundation on (it has nothing to do with sheet music and notation, its guitar specific) and any level can find the page where they think they are at, then move forward from there. Most stores has this series of books, and i even think he has a DVD now for them. PLEASE get the book, you will love it.

    I ordered it yesterday. I read a lot of user reviews and almost everyone seems to love it. I'm kinda "stuck" right now in my guitar progression so I'm looking forward to learning some new stuff.
    Thanks for the tip Harrison!
  • mca47mca47 Posts: 13,282
    harrisonmerwin wrote:
    just a note...

    this books does not teach you how to play yoru instrument, it shows the dynamics of how and why the fretboard is the way it is, and it allows you to link together the peices of how and why chords are made, and the different solo keys and modes. It does show the basics, and the layout of the book is nice how once you understand one page, you flip it, and the next page builds nice, this is a beautiful book to build your theory foundation on (it has nothing to do with sheet music and notation, its guitar specific) and any level can find the page where they think they are at, then move forward from there. Most stores has this series of books, and i even think he has a DVD now for them. PLEASE get the book, you will love it.


    i got this book a couple days ago and i'm really impressed.
    i'm only a dozen or so pages in and i've already learned so much.
    for as many books as i've read and all the theories i've heard and tried to learn...this is brilliant.
    i can't wait to read the rest!!! :)
  • suffragettesuffragette Posts: 253
    In another medium, it has been said: if you want to write, write.

    About theory: I think you do need to know how to get where you want to go. Eddie Van Halen has a theory background, if that means anything to anyone. There are logical progressions.

    About Jimi: I just remember seeing that footage of Townshend/Clapton etc watching him with their mouths open. Lessons help, but sometimes the instrument makes its way into the right hands. I think there's a lot to be said for intuitive, emotional playing. You can have skill, but if you don't have soul...
  • the unseenthe unseen Posts: 372
    mca47 wrote:
    i got this book a couple days ago and i'm really impressed.
    i'm only a dozen or so pages in and i've already learned so much.
    for as many books as i've read and all the theories i've heard and tried to learn...this is brilliant.
    i can't wait to read the rest!!! :)



    i wonder if the guy that suggested this book is getting a commision from this thread.....

    if he isnt,he should be.

    i picked it up after reading this thread when it was first started,and it has helped make some sort of sense of the fretboard in ways other books werent doing for me.
  • MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
    1. learn the major scale. learn what notes the chords are made up of and then improv from the major scale over the chords that are being played.

    2. learn the minor pentatonic.

    3. go to www. soloonguitar.com and learn the rules of relative majors and minors to give you a few different options when soloing.


    none of the above is going to turn you into Hendrix or SRV, but it'll give you a little to go on until you reach the next plateau that you're looking for.
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