Go crazy, and buy a guitar from half way around the world that will kick a lot of ass for the money...much ass...more ass than an expensive Les Paul, that's for sure.
A regular old Heritage is way better than a regular old Gibson. Gibson has to pull together their experts to make a Heritage quality guitar!
That is just ridiculous!
There are only two people who make a Gibson better then Gibson, Max and Keebler. Do any of you have 30K for a historic? I didn't think so. Heriage guitars are nice, but there is a laundry list of inaccurate characteristics about the guitar compared to the real thing. Each one has an impact on tone.
If they were better in anyway, shape or form they would be selling for 5 or 6K just like the Gibson counterparts.
I always read about poor Gibson quality on message boards, and this just isn't the case 90% of the time. Just like every company that sells mass produced guitars, some are good and some aren't. Gibson made less then 1000 R9's this year, how many are "bad" guitars? Not too many from the sales figures I see, in fact they are just about all gone.
Take a look at 2003 BR R9 prices. These axes sold for 3-4K depending on the deal you got and they are now selling for almost 7K. Not too shabby for a modern axe. Will your heritage ever break the 1k mark?
In my opinion, people shit on Gibson because they charge so much from the get go. But, consumers don't realize MSRP doesn't mean that is the price you pay. My last axe had a list of $11,600, I paid less then 5400. It was apraised for 7500. I had 2 offers in that range yesterday.
Even old crappy 70's deluxes are up in the 2k range now.
If this were about Fender and thier custom shop it would be an whole different conversation, but Gibson knows exactly what they are doing.
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There are only two people who make a Gibson better then Gibson, Max and Keebler.
If you're talking exact copy of a Gibson, I would agree. There are however other builders making guitars that are Gibson-inspired which lay Gibsons to waste.
Heriage guitars are nice, but there is a laundry list of inaccurate characteristics about the guitar compared to the real thing. Each one has an impact on tone.
The body is thinner, and the pickups aren't right. That's about it. The headstock angle is the correct 17 degrees, and you can get aftermarket pickups that smoke anything Gibson is using. that's why the cats over at the LP forum switch out their PUP's for Timbuckers or other varieties.
If they were better in anyway, shape or form they would be selling for 5 or 6K just like the Gibson counterparts.
This observation is just foolish. At least 30% of that asking price is for the Gibson name. Anser this...why should you pay that much money for a guitar that is built to the correct Les Paul spec's? Why can't Gibson build Les Paul's with their fancy machines that hold the neck, headstock, and body dimensions of the originals? They can, but they can charge 5 or 6k and people are silly enough to spend that kind of money for the bragging rights. We could really split the atom and discuss the differences between old growth mahogany and the new stuff that they can't cure fast enough...but that's really splitting hairs.
I always read about poor Gibson quality on message boards, and this just isn't the case 90% of the time....Gibson made less then 1000 R9's this year, how many are "bad" guitars? Not too many from the sales figures I see, in fact they are just about all gone.
You sound like you know what you're talking about, so I am going to assume that you have run the racks at a Gibson Historic dealer and compared a bunch of R8's and R9's right down the line. At 6k a pop, they better be damned perfect. 75% is the number that I find to be more realistic. If you can live with some orange peel, occasional sloppy fretwork or binding, and tops that are called 5A, but are actually 4A or 3A, I'll give you that 90%.
Sales does not = quality. People will buy it for the name on the headstock...mostly dr's and lawyers trying to relive their youth playing guitars that are better than the ones they played in the 70s. That's what really makes me sick...those 70's LP's ging for thousands of dollars. Quality and workmanship sucked big balls at Gibson in the 70s...and it shows on every guitar I have played from that era (admittedly only about a dozen and a half)
Take a look at 2003 BR R9 prices. These axes sold for 3-4K depending on the deal you got and they are now selling for almost 7K. Not too shabby for a modern axe. Will your heritage ever break the 1k mark?
Again...misleading. What you pay for a guitar does not translate to a quality guitar. It translates to a lot of people who are willing to spend retarded amounts of money on an instrument which may or may not be good, but just so happens to have a Gibson headstock and a be a Les Paul. IMO, no Gibson made in the last 10 years is worth more than 3-4k new, and 2-3k used. The appreciation is not too shabby for an investment, but for an instrument that isn't even dry yet, it's retarded. Sure, the specs are right, but what are you really paying for?
People shit on Gibson because Gibson deserves to be shit on. They tried to stick it to a bunch of other builders because those builders are doing it better than Gibson can (quality wise), and cutting into their bottom line. They force their dealers to adhere to strick advertising rules, and make them pay lots of money to sell guitars that are built correctly. Their customer service is historically (pun intended) horrible as well. For 6k, if I have a question or problem with my instrument, you better be ready to do a few backflips for me. I spend half of that on hand-made instruments and get service that puts Gibson to complete shame.
They have the right to charge what the market will allow for their instruments. Heck, if they can get 10k for a new LP, more power to them. that doesn't mean a damned thing when it comes to quality, or bang for the buck...especially with guys like PRS, McInturff, Grosh, Gustavsson, Heatley, and McNaught out there building guitars that are right in line with the best that Gibson could ever hope to offer, and in many instances, running circles around them.
I love a good LP just as much as the next guy, but it is what it is. Gibson's business practices blow, and their product doesn't live up to the prices people pay. remember, most people aren't playing Historic's...they're playing off the rack Standards, which have even worse numbers on the quality meter. If I run the racks of 10 LP standards, 4 of them might cut the mustard on any given day. Gibson is counting on buyers who don't know what the fuck they're doing, or what to look for when they shell out 2300 for a Standard.
Now that I'm done with my pointless critique of Gibson Les Paul's, I'd like to point out an instrument that Gibson makes which I love...one that can kick supreme amounts of ass in many genre's.
The beloved 335
For the money, you're not going to get a better instrument than this...and the VooDoo pickups are glorious.
If you're talking exact copy of a Gibson, I would agree. There are however other builders making guitars that are Gibson-inspired which lay Gibsons to waste.
The body is thinner, and the pickups aren't right. That's about it. The headstock angle is the correct 17 degrees, and you can get aftermarket pickups that smoke anything Gibson is using. that's why the cats over at the LP forum switch out their PUP's for Timbuckers or other varieties.
This observation is just foolish. At least 30% of that asking price is for the Gibson name. Anser this...why should you pay that much money for a guitar that is built to the correct Les Paul spec's? Why can't Gibson build Les Paul's with their fancy machines that hold the neck, headstock, and body dimensions of the originals? They can, but they can charge 5 or 6k and people are silly enough to spend that kind of money for the bragging rights. We could really split the atom and discuss the differences between old growth mahogany and the new stuff that they can't cure fast enough...but that's really splitting hairs.
You sound like you know what you're talking about, so I am going to assume that you have run the racks at a Gibson Historic dealer and compared a bunch of R8's and R9's right down the line. At 6k a pop, they better be damned perfect. 75% is the number that I find to be more realistic. If you can live with some orange peel, occasional sloppy fretwork or binding, and tops that are called 5A, but are actually 4A or 3A, I'll give you that 90%.
Sales does not = quality. People will buy it for the name on the headstock...mostly dr's and lawyers trying to relive their youth playing guitars that are better than the ones they played in the 70s. That's what really makes me sick...those 70's LP's ging for thousands of dollars. Quality and workmanship sucked big balls at Gibson in the 70s...and it shows on every guitar I have played from that era (admittedly only about a dozen and a half)
Take a look at 2003 BR R9 prices. These axes sold for 3-4K depending on the deal you got and they are now selling for almost 7K. Not too shabby for a modern axe. Will your heritage ever break the 1k mark?
Again...misleading. What you pay for a guitar does not translate to a quality guitar. It translates to a lot of people who are willing to spend retarded amounts of money on an instrument which may or may not be good, but just so happens to have a Gibson headstock and a be a Les Paul. IMO, no Gibson made in the last 10 years is worth more than 3-4k new, and 2-3k used. The appreciation is not too shabby for an investment, but for an instrument that isn't even dry yet, it's retarded. Sure, the specs are right, but what are you really paying for?
People shit on Gibson because Gibson deserves to be shit on. They tried to stick it to a bunch of other builders because those builders are doing it better than Gibson can (quality wise), and cutting into their bottom line. They force their dealers to adhere to strick advertising rules, and make them pay lots of money to sell guitars that are built correctly. Their customer service is historically (pun intended) horrible as well. For 6k, if I have a question or problem with my instrument, you better be ready to do a few backflips for me. I spend half of that on hand-made instruments and get service that puts Gibson to complete shame.
They have the right to charge what the market will allow for their instruments. Heck, if they can get 10k for a new LP, more power to them. that doesn't mean a damned thing when it comes to quality, or bang for the buck...especially with guys like PRS, McInturff, Grosh, Gustavsson, Heatley, and McNaught out there building guitars that are right in line with the best that Gibson could ever hope to offer, and in many instances, running circles around them.
I love a good LP just as much as the next guy, but it is what it is. Gibson's business practices blow, and their product doesn't live up to the prices people pay. remember, most people aren't playing Historic's...they're playing off the rack Standards, which have even worse numbers on the quality meter. If I run the racks of 10 LP standards, 4 of them might cut the mustard on any given day. Gibson is counting on buyers who don't know what the fuck they're doing, or what to look for when they shell out 2300 for a Standard.
Gibson, like anyone who owns a patent has every right to protect their product. Lets not confuse a bunch of issues.
Heritage guitars are not in any way shape or form even close to a proper LP spec, from the tailpiece and lack of ABR-1 bridge all the way to the electronics. Gibson has gone through many changes, some of them due to new ownership, some of them due to customer repsonse. The last major change to the historic line was in 2003 and these axes are the most accurate reproduction of a real 58,59 or 60 burst. Are there still some issues? Yes, like the truss rod condom, the lack of hide glue, etc, etc but all in all the last 3 years of Gibson LP's represent the best.
Lets take a look at the Heritage guitar and compare it to the real deal. I don't think any LP snob, including my self discounts it because of the headstock logo. It is because it isn't accurate. Does it mean it isn't a good guitar? Nope, but it isn't an LP.
So again I ask, is the issue a Copy/Fake VS. the Real Deal, or the pricing and business practices of a multi-million dollar company?
You mention the LPF forum, which is a place many LP snobs hang out, including my self. OUr quest is to get our axes to the most accurate specs possible-PERIOD! If that means swapping out crappy pups for Tims, so be it. Again, don't confuse the issue.
The Heritage axes are not accurate because:
1. No long neck tenon
2. Improper trebile horn
3. Lack of Stop tailpeice and ABR-1 bridge
4. Poor mahagony which dictates wieght. Most Heritatges are over 10lbs
5. Pick guard isn't even close
6. headstock is pretty terrible
Now I think it is great becasue for under 1500 bucks in many cases for a new one you get a well built axe with good tone. But it doesn't make it a LP, just an axe that looks similar.
You mention Gibson Inspired, well that doesn't cut it in my book. I want a true repro of a 59 Burst, down to oil and paper caps, a real tail peice, proper studs, true knobs, the right rings, switch tip, etc. Gibson inspired isn't a Les Paul and it will never be.
There are 2 maybe 3 if you count Derring, Luthiers that have been able to reproduce the Les Paul and that is why their axes demand top, top dollar. Then there are people who copy someone elses work and pass it off as inspired, again it doesn't mean the tone isn't there, but I don't question a lawsuit.
There is no difference between axes of today and axes of the 50's in the sense that there were good ones and bad ones, but what is bad? what is good? That is subjective and up to the player. I can tell you all those bad axes of the 50s are being bought up left and right today and are considered tone monsters, so what gives?
If you want to talk marketing and business practices, I am all for it. Gibson and Henry are doing the right thing. Who cares if it pisses off the main stream player, are they the intended buyer? Probably not considering the average muscian makes around 30K a year.Gibson does offer an LP at every price point, so people must think the Historic LP's are worth 3-5K if not more, because they are buying them. Henry is building the Custom shop to build axes that his wealthy clientele want. True and accurate repros. The 09's will be amazing!!
My numbers are far from misleading, but then again you have to knnow what you are doing if you intend to come out smelling like a rose. Otherwise everyone would be doing it I don't buy historics to make money, but I do buy other vintage axes to make money and I prefer to play em while I own them, so I buy Gibsons. I just happen to have bought a couple historics that have appreciated considerably since I bought them.Luck? Nope, I knew what to buy.
My BR numbers are dead on accurate. NOS BR's that were passed on because they were bad are going for twice the recommended MSRP for 2003.
You failed to mention the 500 dollar price drop on R8s as well! Gibson isn't always trying to rape its customers.
It is important to point out that you can buy used if you are so pissed off at Gibson for what ever reason. There are some great dealers that have an impressive inventory of used Gibsons. The Super Dealers are not all evil and some of those that can't post photos will send them to you if you ask, but that would require having the intent to buy I guess
Laslty, you provided a fairly impressive list of alternative choices to a Gibson. Some of them are luithers who make a total of 200 axes a year. Some of them have 3 year waiting lists. SOme of them aren't shit compared to the next guy and still at the end of the day not a single one is a Les Paul!
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Good points in general. I offer a compromise . For the money, this is technically a real Les Paul, and at a good price if you need something to thrash around on in the local clubs without risking a 6k guitar
It's no Historic, but at 1/10 the price, it will cut the mustard
Consider that most of the cats (and kittens) on this forum probably can't crack out 5 or 6k for a Les Paul that is built correctly, regardless of aesthetics or correct parts.I remember about 10 years ago you could get a late 50's refin for about 8-10k, now, those same guitars are commanding top dollar.
I agree with you thatthere are good and bad in every batch/era. I've yet to play a bad McInturff though...and his short scale models (custom order only as far as I know), will go toe to toe with the best LP's I have ever played. Does it look like a LP? Not really. Is it wired like a LP? Nope...but it has the coil taps wired to a switch while I have always had to use push-pull's on my Les Pauls...those push pull pots crap out like nobody's business .
If I were going to sepnd 5-6k, I'd buy a Gustavsson. But like you said...the wait can be obscene.
Good points in general. I offer a compromise . For the money, this is technically a real Les Paul, and at a good price if you need something to thrash around on in the local clubs without risking a 6k guitar
It's no Historic, but at 1/10 the price, it will cut the mustard
Consider that most of the cats (and kittens) on this forum probably can't crack out 5 or 6k for a Les Paul that is built correctly, regardless of aesthetics or correct parts.I remember about 10 years ago you could get a late 50's refin for about 8-10k, now, those same guitars are commanding top dollar.
I agree with you thatthere are good and bad in every batch/era. I've yet to play a bad McInturff though...and his short scale models (custom order only as far as I know), will go toe to toe with the best LP's I have ever played. Does it look like a LP? Not really. Is it wired like a LP? Nope...but it has the coil taps wired to a switch while I have always had to use push-pull's on my Les Pauls...those push pull pots crap out like nobody's business .
If I were going to sepnd 5-6k, I'd buy a Gustavsson. But like you said...the wait can be obscene.
I totally agree with you that the tone is there and if "we" had to pick axes based on our ears and not our eyes, who knows what all of us would really be playing
My tech is Scroeder, he makes his own line of guitars that just blow me away. With that being said, I doubt I could justify his price when I could be a nice conversion or a real 50's GT for the same money.
The boutique Luthiers don't have it as easy as every one thinks, but the end result is what you would expect for both the time and money.
As for the parts, It has taken me over a year to find resources for pots that have values over 500k and less then 600k. I finally found a good consistant resource for NOS Sprauge BUmble Bees and they are all rated at either .022 400 or 600. Having good pots and caps are crucial to getting that woody tone. Then there are companies like Pigtail making exact duplicates of all the 50's parts. Are they cheap, not a chance, but the tone is just sillly compared to the crap Gibson uses as stock. Gibson isn't close to perfect, but as a business man I have no problem with the direction they are taking. I have found like with any product I buy, the difference in how you are treated after the sale comes from who you bought it through. For example, would GM react in a nano second to every call and warranty claim? Not a chance, but if you have a great relationship with your dealership, chances are your problems will be taken care of
I am glad Tokai and Heritage are around, it keeps the big OEMS on their toes! We all know a cheaper LP can be done, the question is whether or not Henry thinks he has a problem selling them at the current price structure.
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BJF powers my Pedal Board
Well, maybe not riDICulous, Heritages are nice guitars.
I didn’t mean to imply that they were a clone or to Gibson specs. They are what they are. A damn well built guitar that sounds great for not a lot of money.
I can understand your appreciation for Les Pauls. I love them, too. I bought my 57 goldtop in 1965 after I saw Keith Richards on Ed Sullivan. I bought my 58 Burst the next year. They were just good guitars then, not “vintage”.
Not everybody can afford, or wants a $5000 + Paul, though. I’m just trying to come up with something good and affordable for someone who has a price limit.
A few days ago, as a matter of fact, I was at my friend’s music store in my town. We opened up 11 Heritages, 8 Les Pauls, one that was a Murphy and the rest were Standards. I swing by and do all the setups on his new stuff that comes in, in trade for him taking me to the wine store next door.
I like doing it because I get to examine them all and it keeps me in the game.
I think the Heritages are just as nice in quality as the new LP Standards new out of the box. Actually in the scheme of things probably equal but quite cheaper. They all varied somewhat, but that’s typical of all guitars all the time over the years. The Heritages came with Duncan 59's and nice Grover tuners as stock.
The Gibsons ARE getting better, but for a lot more money. Out of all the guitars, the one that had the best mojo for me was one of the Les Pauls, but a couple of Heritages were close behind.
We’re sending two of the Gibsons back. One because of rough fretwork, one because of finish flaws. I could fix the rough frets, but it's new and they should know that. These are guitars that list for $2500 - $3000+ and shouldn't arrive like that.
None of the Heritages had problems, except for tweaking the neck after a long drive.
If you want a Gibson for the mojo of the name and the history, you just have to play a bunch before you buy. You’ll find one that you like and it’ll cost more. Nothing wrong with that.
If you’re looking for something that plays well that you won’t be afraid to use, play out, and wear out a little, then a Les Paul, Heritage, or Hamer are fine guitars.
I would definitely play a bunch of any of them, too, before making a decision.
The Murphy is fantastic, man. Nice piece and workmanship. I sold my real 57 Goldtop and 58 Burst last year. I bought those suckers in the mid 60’s and had them all my life. Before the buyers came to get them, we had them set up against a bunch of the Gibson Reissues. In reality, I don’t think there was much difference in tone between my 58 burst and the reissues. My Goldtop had PAF’s in it, but they weren’t as good as the ones in the burst. I think there is more of a mystique about the “real” 57’s and 58’s. Some were amazing and some were average. I had one amazing one and one average. Got a good buck for them, too!
The only reason I sold them was to pay for the cancer treatment I did. I cried when they left!, but the treatment seems to have worked, so I guess it was a good trade off.
Ok, Dirty Frank,
10,000 words later, and Exhausted actually answered your question on his first post!
Good price for that Oxblood if you can check it out, first!
That Epi Elite that Enharmonic posted is a great piece, too, for $700.00 bucks.
Most Epi Les Pauls have thinner maple on top than the corresponding Gibson would. I’m not sure if the Elite does, too. I never checked. Less maple can darken the tone a bit, but the the Elites are nice.
Actually, I agree with Enharmonic in that right now, my favorite Les Paul is my 1982 ES-355!
I love that guitar and never did a thing to it. Never fiddled with pickups or anything. I used to love having that thing cranked up. It vibrates when it starts to feed back, and it seems like it's taking on a life of it's own!
Here's weird choice for you, too, Dirty Frank, if you want something offbeat but amazing. These are getting hard to find, but look for a Martin EM-18. It’s a 1980 solid maple dual humbucker with all kinds of coil splitting phase switching options. I have 2 of them, and they are like $600.00, if you can find them. Currently, that is the best made guitar and probably the best sounding dual humbucker guitar that I own.
Be kind, man
Don't be mankind. ~Captain Beefheart
__________________________________
Well, maybe not riDICulous, Heritages are nice guitars.
I didn’t mean to imply that they were a clone or to Gibson specs. They are what they are. A damn well built guitar that sounds great for not a lot of money.
I can understand your appreciation for Les Pauls. I love them, too. I bought my 57 goldtop in 1965 after I saw Keith Richards on Ed Sullivan. I bought my 58 Burst the next year. They were just good guitars then, not “vintage”.
Not everybody can afford, or wants a $5000 + Paul, though. I’m just trying to come up with something good and affordable for someone who has a price limit.
A few days ago, as a matter of fact, I was at my friend’s music store in my town. We opened up 11 Heritages, 8 Les Pauls, one that was a Murphy and the rest were Standards. I swing by and do all the setups on his new stuff that comes in, in trade for him taking me to the wine store next door.
I like doing it because I get to examine them all and it keeps me in the game.
I think the Heritages are just as nice in quality as the new LP Standards new out of the box. Actually in the scheme of things probably equal but quite cheaper. They all varied somewhat, but that’s typical of all guitars all the time over the years. The Heritages came with Duncan 59's and nice Grover tuners as stock.
The Gibsons ARE getting better, but for a lot more money. Out of all the guitars, the one that had the best mojo for me was one of the Les Pauls, but a couple of Heritages were close behind.
We’re sending two of the Gibsons back. One because of rough fretwork, one because of finish flaws. I could fix the rough frets, but it's new and they should know that. These are guitars that list for $2500 - $3000+ and shouldn't arrive like that.
None of the Heritages had problems, except for tweaking the neck after a long drive.
If you want a Gibson for the mojo of the name and the history, you just have to play a bunch before you buy. You’ll find one that you like and it’ll cost more. Nothing wrong with that.
If you’re looking for something that plays well that you won’t be afraid to use, play out, and wear out a little, then a Les Paul, Heritage, or Hamer are fine guitars.
I would definitely play a bunch of any of them, too, before making a decision.
The Murphy is fantastic, man. Nice piece and workmanship. I sold my real 57 Goldtop and 58 Burst last year. I bought those suckers in the mid 60’s and had them all my life. Before the buyers came to get them, we had them set up against a bunch of the Gibson Reissues. In reality, I don’t think there was much difference in tone between my 58 burst and the reissues. My Goldtop had PAF’s in it, but they weren’t as good as the ones in the burst. I think there is more of a mystique about the “real” 57’s and 58’s. Some were amazing and some were average. I had one amazing one and one average. Got a good buck for them, too!
The only reason I sold them was to pay for the cancer treatment I did. I cried when they left!, but the treatment seems to have worked, so I guess it was a good trade off.
Ok, Dirty Frank,
10,000 words later, and Exhausted actually answered your question on his first post!
Good price for that Oxblood if you can check it out, first!
That Epi Elite that Enharmonic posted is a great piece, too, for $700.00 bucks.
Most Epi Les Pauls have thinner maple on top than the corresponding Gibson would. I’m not sure if the Elite does, too. I never checked. Less maple can darken the tone a bit, but the the Elites are nice.
Actually, I agree with Enharmonic in that right now, my favorite Les Paul is my 1982 ES-355!
I love that guitar and never did a thing to it. Never fiddled with pickups or anything. I used to love having that thing cranked up. It vibrates when it starts to feed back, and it seems like it's taking on a life of it's own!
Here's weird choice for you, too, Dirty Frank, if you want something offbeat but amazing. These are getting hard to find, but look for a Martin EM-18. It’s a 1980 solid maple dual humbucker with all kinds of coil splitting phase switching options. I have 2 of them, and they are like $600.00, if you can find them. Currently, that is the best made guitar and probably the best sounding dual humbucker guitar that I own.
I think this topic could be or maybe should be a thread all to itself
But, because I enjoy it so much I want to continue the discussion.
In your opening paragraph you state, "I didn’t mean to imply that they were a clone or to Gibson specs. They are what they are" But you did imply they were a clone simply by offering it as an alternative. Just like Heritage does by allowing people to read between the lines. Alter the treible horn, alter the head stock, make the body a little different. At the end of the day you do have a guitar that "resembles" one of the most recognizable guitars and American Pop culture artifacts.In fact, other then the Strat the LP is recognized by name by most people in the general population. None of whom are musicians. So tell me, is it an accident Heritage chose the design?
If I were Gibson I would sue everyone who infringed on my property as well.
None of this has to do with the quality of the instrument, it has to do with the creativity behind it.
I perfect example are all the boutique builders, many build look a likes and most are built better then the real deal. How many have taken what was done and made it their own? Not to many which is why Gibson and Fender continue to sell. Come to think of it, Koll might be the only one really doinig something unique and getting the attention of the studio musician. He also can deliver an axe for less then 2K.
Next subject:
Gibson Quality VS. Anyone else:
It is a known fact Gibson has problems. It is also a known fact that they are finally doing something to fix it. They just bought a PLEK machine for the factory. This is a monster step forward for them.
I have to say no matter what axe I am looking to buy, I have to go through dozens until I find one that speaks to me. It makes no difference if it a strat, a Les Paul, a Falcon, a Tele. Part of being a guitar player is recognizing what you want out of your instrument. Part of being a guitar player is also realizing that an axe, is just an axe and your tone is in your hands. There is always a better playing axe out there, but can you play with what you got?
With that being said, the Murphys are the first batch of axes I have played that were all pretty much equal. I am fortunate enough to be able to afford one, and I am thrilled with them. I am also expecting this from the top department of Gibson. Now, how much of this is because Tom hand selects every axe? How much of it is because an extra set of eyes and hands go over it before I get it? Probably a lot.
Old wood Vs. New:
I am not going to go there. Only because people who are much more qualified already have. The LPF is loaded with clips and what not with real 59s and Historics. The results are pretty close, but the nod goes to old wood every time.
I would love to see some pics of your old axes. I think the 58-60 Bursts are more then just guitars, they are the foundation of good tone. The holy grail, the one thing the average man will never get to taste. You were very lucky in many ways. One you got to own and play them and two, they saved your life. Not to many people can say that about a hunk of wood
While my axes might not be the real deal, one of them is pretty close. Outside of real PAFS, I have almost all real hardware on it. Anytime you want she is yours to play
For Dirty Frank, talking about these are one thing. Get out there and play em till one speaks to you. It is about being inspired to play. If a LP makes you play longer and harder, get an LP. If it is a EPI, so be it!!
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Playing Les Pauls, Teles, Hubers, Gustavssons, Kolls through a Mad Professor amp with a Bob Burt Cab.
BJF powers my Pedal Board
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Hey man... watch it! That is the same LP I just posted.
Like we've noticed before... We both have good taste in guitars. lol
ha, that's crazy, I didn't even notice.
how could one part with that thing? It's 9lbs. Looks like heaven. Brazilian board. Most definately tone for days...
I am thinking a Green Bullet into either a pro jr. or blues jr.
for the keys I am torn between the Clavia Nord or a less expensive yamaha...
we should start a new thread for that.
http://www.12fret.com/used/index.html#SOLIDBODY
OR
Go crazy, and buy a guitar from half way around the world that will kick a lot of ass for the money...much ass...more ass than an expensive Les Paul, that's for sure.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Maton-MS2000-Mastersound-Electric-Guitar-Exc-Cond_W0QQitemZ7365297743QQcategoryZ2384QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
Something like this?:
http://cgi.ebay.com/HERITAGE-H-150-CLASSIC-GUITAR-Les-Paul-model_W0QQitemZ7365249077QQcategoryZ2384QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
A regular old Heritage is way better than a regular old Gibson. Gibson has to pull together their experts to make a Heritage quality guitar!
Don't be mankind. ~Captain Beefheart
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I wouldn't go that far, but the Heritage is easily as well made if not more so, and costs half as much.
Same with the American Hamer stuff...great guitars for the money
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
That is just ridiculous!
There are only two people who make a Gibson better then Gibson, Max and Keebler. Do any of you have 30K for a historic? I didn't think so. Heriage guitars are nice, but there is a laundry list of inaccurate characteristics about the guitar compared to the real thing. Each one has an impact on tone.
If they were better in anyway, shape or form they would be selling for 5 or 6K just like the Gibson counterparts.
I always read about poor Gibson quality on message boards, and this just isn't the case 90% of the time. Just like every company that sells mass produced guitars, some are good and some aren't. Gibson made less then 1000 R9's this year, how many are "bad" guitars? Not too many from the sales figures I see, in fact they are just about all gone.
Take a look at 2003 BR R9 prices. These axes sold for 3-4K depending on the deal you got and they are now selling for almost 7K. Not too shabby for a modern axe. Will your heritage ever break the 1k mark?
In my opinion, people shit on Gibson because they charge so much from the get go. But, consumers don't realize MSRP doesn't mean that is the price you pay. My last axe had a list of $11,600, I paid less then 5400. It was apraised for 7500. I had 2 offers in that range yesterday.
Even old crappy 70's deluxes are up in the 2k range now.
If this were about Fender and thier custom shop it would be an whole different conversation, but Gibson knows exactly what they are doing.
Hanging at www.TheGuitarHub.com
The only Forum for players by players.......
Playing Les Pauls, Teles, Hubers, Gustavssons, Kolls through a Mad Professor amp with a Bob Burt Cab.
BJF powers my Pedal Board
If you're talking exact copy of a Gibson, I would agree. There are however other builders making guitars that are Gibson-inspired which lay Gibsons to waste.
The body is thinner, and the pickups aren't right. That's about it. The headstock angle is the correct 17 degrees, and you can get aftermarket pickups that smoke anything Gibson is using. that's why the cats over at the LP forum switch out their PUP's for Timbuckers or other varieties.
This observation is just foolish. At least 30% of that asking price is for the Gibson name. Anser this...why should you pay that much money for a guitar that is built to the correct Les Paul spec's? Why can't Gibson build Les Paul's with their fancy machines that hold the neck, headstock, and body dimensions of the originals? They can, but they can charge 5 or 6k and people are silly enough to spend that kind of money for the bragging rights. We could really split the atom and discuss the differences between old growth mahogany and the new stuff that they can't cure fast enough...but that's really splitting hairs.
You sound like you know what you're talking about, so I am going to assume that you have run the racks at a Gibson Historic dealer and compared a bunch of R8's and R9's right down the line. At 6k a pop, they better be damned perfect. 75% is the number that I find to be more realistic. If you can live with some orange peel, occasional sloppy fretwork or binding, and tops that are called 5A, but are actually 4A or 3A, I'll give you that 90%.
Sales does not = quality. People will buy it for the name on the headstock...mostly dr's and lawyers trying to relive their youth playing guitars that are better than the ones they played in the 70s. That's what really makes me sick...those 70's LP's ging for thousands of dollars. Quality and workmanship sucked big balls at Gibson in the 70s...and it shows on every guitar I have played from that era (admittedly only about a dozen and a half)
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
The beloved 335
For the money, you're not going to get a better instrument than this...and the VooDoo pickups are glorious.
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=113027
Not mine, but had this been for sale last week, I would have jumped on it in a minute.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
Gibson, like anyone who owns a patent has every right to protect their product. Lets not confuse a bunch of issues.
Heritage guitars are not in any way shape or form even close to a proper LP spec, from the tailpiece and lack of ABR-1 bridge all the way to the electronics. Gibson has gone through many changes, some of them due to new ownership, some of them due to customer repsonse. The last major change to the historic line was in 2003 and these axes are the most accurate reproduction of a real 58,59 or 60 burst. Are there still some issues? Yes, like the truss rod condom, the lack of hide glue, etc, etc but all in all the last 3 years of Gibson LP's represent the best.
Lets take a look at the Heritage guitar and compare it to the real deal. I don't think any LP snob, including my self discounts it because of the headstock logo. It is because it isn't accurate. Does it mean it isn't a good guitar? Nope, but it isn't an LP.
So again I ask, is the issue a Copy/Fake VS. the Real Deal, or the pricing and business practices of a multi-million dollar company?
You mention the LPF forum, which is a place many LP snobs hang out, including my self. OUr quest is to get our axes to the most accurate specs possible-PERIOD! If that means swapping out crappy pups for Tims, so be it. Again, don't confuse the issue.
The Heritage axes are not accurate because:
1. No long neck tenon
2. Improper trebile horn
3. Lack of Stop tailpeice and ABR-1 bridge
4. Poor mahagony which dictates wieght. Most Heritatges are over 10lbs
5. Pick guard isn't even close
6. headstock is pretty terrible
Now I think it is great becasue for under 1500 bucks in many cases for a new one you get a well built axe with good tone. But it doesn't make it a LP, just an axe that looks similar.
You mention Gibson Inspired, well that doesn't cut it in my book. I want a true repro of a 59 Burst, down to oil and paper caps, a real tail peice, proper studs, true knobs, the right rings, switch tip, etc. Gibson inspired isn't a Les Paul and it will never be.
There are 2 maybe 3 if you count Derring, Luthiers that have been able to reproduce the Les Paul and that is why their axes demand top, top dollar. Then there are people who copy someone elses work and pass it off as inspired, again it doesn't mean the tone isn't there, but I don't question a lawsuit.
There is no difference between axes of today and axes of the 50's in the sense that there were good ones and bad ones, but what is bad? what is good? That is subjective and up to the player. I can tell you all those bad axes of the 50s are being bought up left and right today and are considered tone monsters, so what gives?
If you want to talk marketing and business practices, I am all for it. Gibson and Henry are doing the right thing. Who cares if it pisses off the main stream player, are they the intended buyer? Probably not considering the average muscian makes around 30K a year.Gibson does offer an LP at every price point, so people must think the Historic LP's are worth 3-5K if not more, because they are buying them. Henry is building the Custom shop to build axes that his wealthy clientele want. True and accurate repros. The 09's will be amazing!!
My numbers are far from misleading, but then again you have to knnow what you are doing if you intend to come out smelling like a rose. Otherwise everyone would be doing it
My BR numbers are dead on accurate. NOS BR's that were passed on because they were bad are going for twice the recommended MSRP for 2003.
You failed to mention the 500 dollar price drop on R8s as well! Gibson isn't always trying to rape its customers.
It is important to point out that you can buy used if you are so pissed off at Gibson for what ever reason. There are some great dealers that have an impressive inventory of used Gibsons. The Super Dealers are not all evil and some of those that can't post photos will send them to you if you ask, but that would require having the intent to buy I guess
Laslty, you provided a fairly impressive list of alternative choices to a Gibson. Some of them are luithers who make a total of 200 axes a year. Some of them have 3 year waiting lists. SOme of them aren't shit compared to the next guy and still at the end of the day not a single one is a Les Paul!
Hanging at www.TheGuitarHub.com
The only Forum for players by players.......
Playing Les Pauls, Teles, Hubers, Gustavssons, Kolls through a Mad Professor amp with a Bob Burt Cab.
BJF powers my Pedal Board
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=clearance/search/detail/base_pid/518405/
It's no Historic, but at 1/10 the price, it will cut the mustard
Consider that most of the cats (and kittens) on this forum probably can't crack out 5 or 6k for a Les Paul that is built correctly, regardless of aesthetics or correct parts.I remember about 10 years ago you could get a late 50's refin for about 8-10k, now, those same guitars are commanding top dollar.
I agree with you thatthere are good and bad in every batch/era. I've yet to play a bad McInturff though...and his short scale models (custom order only as far as I know), will go toe to toe with the best LP's I have ever played. Does it look like a LP? Not really. Is it wired like a LP? Nope...but it has the coil taps wired to a switch while I have always had to use push-pull's on my Les Pauls...those push pull pots crap out like nobody's business
If I were going to sepnd 5-6k, I'd buy a Gustavsson. But like you said...the wait can be obscene.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
I totally agree with you that the tone is there and if "we" had to pick axes based on our ears and not our eyes, who knows what all of us would really be playing
My tech is Scroeder, he makes his own line of guitars that just blow me away. With that being said, I doubt I could justify his price when I could be a nice conversion or a real 50's GT for the same money.
The boutique Luthiers don't have it as easy as every one thinks, but the end result is what you would expect for both the time and money.
As for the parts, It has taken me over a year to find resources for pots that have values over 500k and less then 600k. I finally found a good consistant resource for NOS Sprauge BUmble Bees and they are all rated at either .022 400 or 600. Having good pots and caps are crucial to getting that woody tone. Then there are companies like Pigtail making exact duplicates of all the 50's parts. Are they cheap, not a chance, but the tone is just sillly compared to the crap Gibson uses as stock. Gibson isn't close to perfect, but as a business man I have no problem with the direction they are taking. I have found like with any product I buy, the difference in how you are treated after the sale comes from who you bought it through. For example, would GM react in a nano second to every call and warranty claim? Not a chance, but if you have a great relationship with your dealership, chances are your problems will be taken care of
I am glad Tokai and Heritage are around, it keeps the big OEMS on their toes! We all know a cheaper LP can be done, the question is whether or not Henry thinks he has a problem selling them at the current price structure.
Hanging at www.TheGuitarHub.com
The only Forum for players by players.......
Playing Les Pauls, Teles, Hubers, Gustavssons, Kolls through a Mad Professor amp with a Bob Burt Cab.
BJF powers my Pedal Board
Well, maybe not riDICulous, Heritages are nice guitars.
I didn’t mean to imply that they were a clone or to Gibson specs. They are what they are. A damn well built guitar that sounds great for not a lot of money.
I can understand your appreciation for Les Pauls. I love them, too. I bought my 57 goldtop in 1965 after I saw Keith Richards on Ed Sullivan. I bought my 58 Burst the next year. They were just good guitars then, not “vintage”.
Not everybody can afford, or wants a $5000 + Paul, though. I’m just trying to come up with something good and affordable for someone who has a price limit.
A few days ago, as a matter of fact, I was at my friend’s music store in my town. We opened up 11 Heritages, 8 Les Pauls, one that was a Murphy and the rest were Standards. I swing by and do all the setups on his new stuff that comes in, in trade for him taking me to the wine store next door.
I like doing it because I get to examine them all and it keeps me in the game.
I think the Heritages are just as nice in quality as the new LP Standards new out of the box. Actually in the scheme of things probably equal but quite cheaper. They all varied somewhat, but that’s typical of all guitars all the time over the years. The Heritages came with Duncan 59's and nice Grover tuners as stock.
The Gibsons ARE getting better, but for a lot more money. Out of all the guitars, the one that had the best mojo for me was one of the Les Pauls, but a couple of Heritages were close behind.
We’re sending two of the Gibsons back. One because of rough fretwork, one because of finish flaws. I could fix the rough frets, but it's new and they should know that. These are guitars that list for $2500 - $3000+ and shouldn't arrive like that.
None of the Heritages had problems, except for tweaking the neck after a long drive.
If you want a Gibson for the mojo of the name and the history, you just have to play a bunch before you buy. You’ll find one that you like and it’ll cost more. Nothing wrong with that.
If you’re looking for something that plays well that you won’t be afraid to use, play out, and wear out a little, then a Les Paul, Heritage, or Hamer are fine guitars.
I would definitely play a bunch of any of them, too, before making a decision.
The Murphy is fantastic, man. Nice piece and workmanship. I sold my real 57 Goldtop and 58 Burst last year. I bought those suckers in the mid 60’s and had them all my life. Before the buyers came to get them, we had them set up against a bunch of the Gibson Reissues. In reality, I don’t think there was much difference in tone between my 58 burst and the reissues. My Goldtop had PAF’s in it, but they weren’t as good as the ones in the burst. I think there is more of a mystique about the “real” 57’s and 58’s. Some were amazing and some were average. I had one amazing one and one average. Got a good buck for them, too!
The only reason I sold them was to pay for the cancer treatment I did. I cried when they left!, but the treatment seems to have worked, so I guess it was a good trade off.
Ok, Dirty Frank,
10,000 words later, and Exhausted actually answered your question on his first post!
Good price for that Oxblood if you can check it out, first!
That Epi Elite that Enharmonic posted is a great piece, too, for $700.00 bucks.
Most Epi Les Pauls have thinner maple on top than the corresponding Gibson would. I’m not sure if the Elite does, too. I never checked. Less maple can darken the tone a bit, but the the Elites are nice.
Actually, I agree with Enharmonic in that right now, my favorite Les Paul is my 1982 ES-355!
I love that guitar and never did a thing to it. Never fiddled with pickups or anything. I used to love having that thing cranked up. It vibrates when it starts to feed back, and it seems like it's taking on a life of it's own!
Here's weird choice for you, too, Dirty Frank, if you want something offbeat but amazing. These are getting hard to find, but look for a Martin EM-18. It’s a 1980 solid maple dual humbucker with all kinds of coil splitting phase switching options. I have 2 of them, and they are like $600.00, if you can find them. Currently, that is the best made guitar and probably the best sounding dual humbucker guitar that I own.
Don't be mankind. ~Captain Beefheart
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I think this topic could be or maybe should be a thread all to itself
But, because I enjoy it so much I want to continue the discussion.
In your opening paragraph you state, "I didn’t mean to imply that they were a clone or to Gibson specs. They are what they are" But you did imply they were a clone simply by offering it as an alternative. Just like Heritage does by allowing people to read between the lines. Alter the treible horn, alter the head stock, make the body a little different. At the end of the day you do have a guitar that "resembles" one of the most recognizable guitars and American Pop culture artifacts.In fact, other then the Strat the LP is recognized by name by most people in the general population. None of whom are musicians. So tell me, is it an accident Heritage chose the design?
If I were Gibson I would sue everyone who infringed on my property as well.
None of this has to do with the quality of the instrument, it has to do with the creativity behind it.
I perfect example are all the boutique builders, many build look a likes and most are built better then the real deal. How many have taken what was done and made it their own? Not to many which is why Gibson and Fender continue to sell. Come to think of it, Koll might be the only one really doinig something unique and getting the attention of the studio musician. He also can deliver an axe for less then 2K.
Next subject:
Gibson Quality VS. Anyone else:
It is a known fact Gibson has problems. It is also a known fact that they are finally doing something to fix it. They just bought a PLEK machine for the factory. This is a monster step forward for them.
I have to say no matter what axe I am looking to buy, I have to go through dozens until I find one that speaks to me. It makes no difference if it a strat, a Les Paul, a Falcon, a Tele. Part of being a guitar player is recognizing what you want out of your instrument. Part of being a guitar player is also realizing that an axe, is just an axe and your tone is in your hands. There is always a better playing axe out there, but can you play with what you got?
With that being said, the Murphys are the first batch of axes I have played that were all pretty much equal. I am fortunate enough to be able to afford one, and I am thrilled with them. I am also expecting this from the top department of Gibson. Now, how much of this is because Tom hand selects every axe? How much of it is because an extra set of eyes and hands go over it before I get it? Probably a lot.
Old wood Vs. New:
I am not going to go there. Only because people who are much more qualified already have. The LPF is loaded with clips and what not with real 59s and Historics. The results are pretty close, but the nod goes to old wood every time.
I would love to see some pics of your old axes. I think the 58-60 Bursts are more then just guitars, they are the foundation of good tone. The holy grail, the one thing the average man will never get to taste. You were very lucky in many ways. One you got to own and play them and two, they saved your life. Not to many people can say that about a hunk of wood
While my axes might not be the real deal, one of them is pretty close. Outside of real PAFS, I have almost all real hardware on it. Anytime you want she is yours to play
For Dirty Frank, talking about these are one thing. Get out there and play em till one speaks to you. It is about being inspired to play. If a LP makes you play longer and harder, get an LP. If it is a EPI, so be it!!
Hanging at www.TheGuitarHub.com
The only Forum for players by players.......
Playing Les Pauls, Teles, Hubers, Gustavssons, Kolls through a Mad Professor amp with a Bob Burt Cab.
BJF powers my Pedal Board