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Do Mike and Stone sound weak?

pjfan020pjfan020 Posts: 426
edited February 2006 in Musicians and Gearheads
Now I haven't heard too much of the 2005 bootlegs, but from what i've heard the guitars sound kind of thin. I heard a version of "blood" from Vancouver and it sounded really weak. Does anyone think that Mike and Stone aren't using enough distortion? Your thoughts please.
"Tonight we're just gonna play you some good old American Rock and Roll." tom petty-7-15-05
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Comments

  • ScubascottScubascott Posts: 815
    The north american bootlegs seem to sound weaker than the south american ones. It sounds like its the way they were mixed, rather than the way they were played. Mike was mixed way too low in the London bootleg I have. I had to fade the left channel up a bit to hear him properly.
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  • itsevolutionbabyitsevolutionbaby Posts: 144
    Scubascott wrote:
    The north american bootlegs seem to sound weaker than the south american ones. It sounds like its the way they were mixed, rather than the way they were played. Mike was mixed way too low in the London bootleg I have. I had to fade the left channel up a bit to hear him properly.

    unfortunately that is how it sounded at the show too. mike's sound for the 3 Canadian shows I went to was probably the worst I have ever heard. It was too clean on most songs for my taste. Not that I want him to run everything through a big muff, but it was really really clean. I hope they can get back to the Yield sound live for the next set of dates..
    What ain't a country I ever heard of. Do they speak English in what?
  • Oh, JimmyOh, Jimmy Posts: 957
    I liked their sound on the 2000 tour. Tons of humbucker equipped guitars. I though their sound was better too. When I seen them in 03 their wasnt meaty enough on some songs. On the VFC tour they seemed to mix it up fairly good with Mike's Les Paul Jr gettin some serious pt.
  • Dirty_FrankDirty_Frank Posts: 957
    I have a 1998 DVD where they're playing with less distortion than before and it's heavy as hell still. It rocks serious ass.

    They don't need to go out and start running JCM800s or anything, but a little more overdrive and crunch never hurt anyone.
  • Brisk.Brisk. Posts: 11,561
    ahhh, i know nothing about guitars, no difference here, sounded the same !!! which is still amazing!
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    Dirty_Frank wrote:
    I have a 1998 DVD where they're playing with less distortion than before and it's heavy as hell still. It rocks serious ass.

    They don't need to go out and start running JCM800s or anything, but a little more overdrive and crunch never hurt anyone.
    I find that every guitarist pretty much strives for a cleaner tone as they get older. One of the reasons that rock is for the young. That and they lose the swagger that allows them to record songs like "Say Hello To Heaven", a song as an excuse for extended guitar soloing. Bon Scott put it best "Hey mama, look at me". Every band seems to lose this attitude after a while.

    Clapton has managed to make himself almost unlistenable. At least Page didn't lose it until In Through The Out Door.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • DriftingByTheStormDriftingByTheStorm Posts: 8,684
    surferdude wrote:
    I find that every guitarist pretty much strives for a cleaner tone as they get older. One of the reasons that rock is for the young. That and they lose the swagger that allows them to record songs like "Say Hello To Heaven", a song as an excuse for extended guitar soloing. Bon Scott put it best "Hey mama, look at me". Every band seems to lose this attitude after a while.

    Clapton has managed to make himself almost unlistenable. At least Page didn't lose it until In Through The Out Door.

    That's pretty damning.

    I'm going to try and reserve my judgement (i do agree that their tone has become thinner, but nothing that made me want to stop listening) until the new album comes out ...

    ... hopefully, given that it is supposed to be their hardest record in years, this means that the tones they are choosing are thick and beefy.

    ... if that's the case, then here is hoping that this sound carries over in to their shows ... i know mike seems to be constantly changing his pedal board, and here's to wishing that he throws in some extra thick distortion again ...

    ... i don't want it to be 1992 again, but that huge marshall-esqe vibe they had going on with the all out stadium reverb was just great ...

    ... when they busted out Why Go in DC for '03 I almost cried at how under-distorted it was. :(
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    DriftingByTheStorm wrote:
    That's pretty damning.

    I'm going to try and reserve my judgement (i do agree that their tone has become thinner, but nothing that made me want to stop listening) until the new album comes out ...

    ... hopefully, given that it is supposed to be their hardest record in years, this means that the tones they are choosing are thick and beefy.

    ... if that's the case, then here is hoping that this sound carries over in to their shows ... i know mike seems to be constantly changing his pedal board, and here's to wishing that he throws in some extra thick distortion again ...

    ... i don't want it to be 1992 again, but that huge marshall-esqe vibe they had going on with the all out stadium reverb was just great ...

    ... when they busted out Why Go in DC for '03 I almost cried at how under-distorted it was. :(
    It was a sweeping inditement. There are some guitarists who don't go cleaner as they age, but not many.

    But I still don't know a single guitarist who has that same swagger they had when they were younger.

    I still stand by what I said about Clapton. Have you heard his new album? To think there once was graffitti citing Clapton is God. I'd hate to think what the current graffitti about Clapton would say.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • dont_go_on_medont_go_on_me Posts: 877
    Stone's tone is much beefier now than it was in 03 or 04. Stone sounds great.

    As much as i hate to admit it, Mike's tone has gotten weaker when he plays his Strat. His LP still sounds pretty damn good (it's still a tad weaker though), but his strat sounds too damn thin for some of the songs when it shouldn't be so weak (Half Full, Even Flow). Then again, I do prefer the cleaner tone in some of the other songs so...
    "I'll do whatever the song dictates - if it doesn't need a real lead, then I won't do one. But if it does, then I'll fuckin' go off." - Mike

    "Japan is awesome; the fans there knew all the words to all the songs...at least phonetically." - Stone

    "I know this song so well, I can smoke a cigarette, have a drink, brush my teeth, take a shit, and mow the lawn while singing it. But I'll only be doing a couple of those things during this version." - EV
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    The amp choices have left a lot to be desired lately.

    I think they need to go back to the JMP's and Savages, and Matchless....

    Let's get some big bottle loud balls to the wall tone again. How about a boost pedal with that strat. Some balls.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • itsevolutionbabyitsevolutionbaby Posts: 144
    Pacomc79 wrote:
    The amp choices have left a lot to be desired lately.

    I think they need to go back to the JMP's and Savages, and Matchless....

    Let's get some big bottle loud balls to the tone again. How about a boost pedal with that strat. Some balls.
    I totally agree. Mike's solos were not nearly as powerful in 05. The clean tone is great for some songs, but some songs really need that beef. I wonder if they hear what we hear. It might sound great in front of the cabinets, and in their monitors. Stone's sound was good, but moreso when he was playing a LP. I find that at least one needs to be playing humbuckers if the other is playing a strat. Especially since Ed has switched to the fender amps, and the telecaster. just my 2c.
    What ain't a country I ever heard of. Do they speak English in what?
  • JofZJofZ Posts: 1,276
    I don't know that I agree with some of this. At the HOB show they sounded fantastic. Mike's tone was full and he had no problem cutting through the band on solos. Stone's tone has changed over the years, but it is still Stone. I think Stone would sound like Stone with a 5 dollar guitar, and I doubt it matters what amp he uses either.
    Jeff sounds better now then he has in years IMO.
    The band is different now, could that be what you are hearing?

    The mixing on the boots should not be used to judge their tone. Some of them sound pathetic and some sound amazing, consistancy is one tough job when you release every live show. Next time you see them live pay close attention and I am sure you wont be dissapointed.
    WHAT IS THAT NOISE?
    Hanging at www.TheGuitarHub.com
    The only Forum for players by players.......

    Playing Les Pauls, Teles, Hubers, Gustavssons, Kolls through a Mad Professor amp with a Bob Burt Cab.
    BJF powers my Pedal Board
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    JofZ wrote:
    I don't know that I agree with some of this. At the HOB show they sounded fantastic. Mike's tone was full and he had no problem cutting through the band on solos. Stone's tone has changed over the years, but it is still Stone. I think Stone would sound like Stone with a 5 dollar guitar, and I doubt it matters what amp he uses either.
    Jeff sounds better now then he has in years IMO.
    The band is different now, could that be what you are hearing?

    The mixing on the boots should not be used to judge their tone. Some of them sound pathetic and some sound amazing, consistancy is one tough job when you release every live show. Next time you see them live pay close attention and I am sure you wont be dissapointed.


    I wonder who is doing the mix lately and I wonder why it's been so inconsistant.

    I'd still like to see mike go with some kind of huge plexi. (Germino maybe) Damn the torpedos. Or hell, I'd love it if he came out with some tweed twins.

    My favorite stone sound came from the Blitz 50.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • enharmonicenharmonic Posts: 1,917
    When you're first starting out, it's a lot of fun to turn up and play with mad distortion. Distortion covers up the suck. As you get older, more experienced, technically better...the chord voicings you start going after might not sound as good with uber gain, or worse, might sound like crap without dialing back a bit.

    I know cats who stayed heavy as all get out, and cats who have pulled it back quite a bit. They all kick my ass, so I don't judge...lol.

    I play a Wizard Modern Classic. I can bury you with gain if I want to. Most of the time, I play right at the edge of breakup though, because that's where interesting things happen. That's where you are the performance, and not your amp. Listen to the anger in Pete Townsend's guitar, or the rudeness of Jimmy Page. Those guys knew what was up, and that's why 40 years on, we're still hearing their stuff up against the latest greatest uber distorted bullshit.
    new music: http://www.myspace.com/blackbirdsymphonique

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  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    JofZ wrote:
    I don't know that I agree with some of this. At the HOB show they sounded fantastic. Mike's tone was full and he had no problem cutting through the band on solos. Stone's tone has changed over the years, but it is still Stone. I think Stone would sound like Stone with a 5 dollar guitar, and I doubt it matters what amp he uses either.
    Jeff sounds better now then he has in years IMO.
    The band is different now, could that be what you are hearing?

    The mixing on the boots should not be used to judge their tone. Some of them sound pathetic and some sound amazing, consistancy is one tough job when you release every live show. Next time you see them live pay close attention and I am sure you wont be dissapointed.
    Mike was not loud enough in Ottawa during some of his solos. He was on fire and as a fan you should have to strain to hear it. FOH can easily add a couple of decibels at the required time.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    enharmonic wrote:
    Listen to the anger in Pete Townsend's guitar, or the rudeness of Jimmy Page. Those guys knew what was up, and that's why 40 years on, we're still hearing their stuff up against the latest greatest uber distorted bullshit.
    Agreed. I guess it's not so much about the distortion level but about the amount you dial it back as you get older. Luckily for us Pete and Jimmy haven't really dialed it back much.

    Okay, well I completely hate The Who's period when Pete pretty much refused to play electric guitar. I saw them twice that tour and it just about killed me to see a band I love so much pretty much made a mockery of.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    enharmonic wrote:
    When you're first starting out, it's a lot of fun to turn up and play with mad distortion. Distortion covers up the suck. As you get older, more experienced, technically better...the chord voicings you start going after might not sound as good with uber gain, or worse, might sound like crap without dialing back a bit.

    I know cats who stayed heavy as all get out, and cats who have pulled it back quite a bit. They all kick my ass, so I don't judge...lol.

    I play a Wizard Modern Classic. I can bury you with gain if I want to. Most of the time, I play right at the edge of breakup though, because that's where interesting things happen. That's where you are the performance, and not your amp. Listen to the anger in Pete Townsend's guitar, or the rudeness of Jimmy Page. Those guys knew what was up, and that's why 40 years on, we're still hearing their stuff up against the latest greatest uber distorted bullshit.


    wow that's very dead on. The feeling and expression can't be heard in uber distorted stuff. Townsend hammered his guitar. The acoustic stuff is just as powerful as any of the electric riffs.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • DriftingByTheStormDriftingByTheStorm Posts: 8,684
    surferdude wrote:
    Mike was not loud enough in Ottawa during some of his solos. He was on fire and as a fan you should have to strain to hear it. FOH can easily add a couple of decibels at the required time.


    i totally agree and am not sure what the deal is on this issue.
    The only recent show I have seen (and i'm talking all the way back to 2003 leg 1) where I felt Mike was even close to at the right volume for solos was in Halifax ...

    I mean, i understand the solo should still be "in the mix" ... but c'mon ... it's a fucking SOLO ... if stone is gonna play some rythm during mikes free time in evenflow ... for fucks sake you should be able to hear mikey play over the rythm !!!

    This is definately a sound board problem, and I don't get it ... I know it sounds different depending on where you are ... but for a few shows I have been AGAINST MIKES SPEAKERS and i still can't hear the bastard.

    :( :( :(
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • Oh, JimmyOh, Jimmy Posts: 957
    surferdude wrote:
    Agreed. I guess it's not so much about the distortion level but about the amount you dial it back as you get older. Luckily for us Pete and Jimmy haven't really dialed it back much.

    Okay, well I completely hate The Who's period when Pete pretty much refused to play electric guitar. I saw them twice that tour and it just about killed me to see a band I love so much pretty much made a mockery of.

    From the more recent tours that Page has been on, it seems like he has added more gain. The older stuff used to be dialed in cleaner than what alotta people think.
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    Oh, Jimmy wrote:
    From the more recent tours that Page has been on, it seems like he has added more gain. The older stuff used to be dialed in cleaner than what alotta people think.
    You're right. Page in the studio was surprisingly clean and relied on guitar layering to achieve his sound. But live he has always seemed to rely on added distortion to muscle his way through the heavily layered parts, i.e Sick Again.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • Oh, JimmyOh, Jimmy Posts: 957
    surferdude wrote:
    You're right. Page in the studio was surprisingly clean and relied on guitar layering to achieve his sound. But live he has always seemed to rely on added distortion to muscle his way through the heavily layered parts, i.e Sick Again.

    Of course, but I was mostly referring to Page's modern tone. I think he is one of the few older players that actually dirtied their tone as they got older.
  • JofZJofZ Posts: 1,276
    Pacomc79 wrote:
    I wonder who is doing the mix lately and I wonder why it's been so inconsistant.

    I'd still like to see mike go with some kind of huge plexi. (Germino maybe) Damn the torpedos. Or hell, I'd love it if he came out with some tweed twins.

    My favorite stone sound came from the Blitz 50.


    He should use the Germino Mont. and Stone should use the 99 Matchless JJ30.

    I think Mike uses a ton of pedals that suffer from tone suck as well. He could toss out many of his mass produced boxes and improve his tone by 10. These guys are using some of the nicest guitars I have seen a gigging band play with, so we know it has to be further down the chain :)
    WHAT IS THAT NOISE?
    Hanging at www.TheGuitarHub.com
    The only Forum for players by players.......

    Playing Les Pauls, Teles, Hubers, Gustavssons, Kolls through a Mad Professor amp with a Bob Burt Cab.
    BJF powers my Pedal Board
  • exhaustedexhausted Posts: 6,638
    mike's board from the UFO tribute thing was pretty much a perfect balance. i don't know how different his pj board is right now.

    stone's pj board is silly big unless he's got bypass boxes somewhere on it.
  • DriftingByTheStormDriftingByTheStorm Posts: 8,684
    exhausted wrote:
    mike's board from the UFO tribute thing was pretty much a perfect balance. i don't know how different his pj board is right now.

    stone's pj board is silly big unless he's got bypass boxes somewhere on it.


    i don't think i ever saw a bypass box in stones flow diagrams, but i do know he uses the crap out of those pedals ...

    half the time he just balances his guitar on his lap while kneeling down to fuck with pedals ... like in RVM ... i've seen him do it countless time ... just creating swells and feedback and weird noises ... it's fucking awesome!

    :D

    some one posted a picture over on the porch a few days ago claiming it was mikes board ... it couldn't have been recent ... at least i hope ... because it looked pretty shitty ... but maybe i'm blind ...
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • JofZJofZ Posts: 1,276
    exhausted wrote:
    mike's board from the UFO tribute thing was pretty much a perfect balance. i don't know how different his pj board is right now.

    stone's pj board is silly big unless he's got bypass boxes somewhere on it.

    you don't see anyroom for improvment here:
    Mikes UFO board:
    1. Dunlop Crybaby (possibly 535q)
    2. Hughes & Kettner Rotosphere
    3. Ibanez TS-9
    4. Fulltone Distortion Pro
    5. Boss DM-2 Delay
    6. Line6 DL4
    7. Line6 MM4


    My Mike Board:
    1. Teese RMC3
    2. BJF MGMV
    3. ProAnalog Vibrato
    4. BJF LGW
    5. BJF DRD
    6. BJF HB
    7. Proanalog Dual Drive
    8. Diamond memory lane
    9. Echozar with angelbaby and expression pedal
    9.Since the MM4 is a full digital modulator, we will need to add 4-5 real boxes to cover this.
    9a. CAF
    9b. PPF
    9c. Analogman Clone Chorus
    9d. Sweet mojo vibe
    9e. Red Witch Moon Pasher

    All of the above will greatly improve Mike's tone.
    WHAT IS THAT NOISE?
    Hanging at www.TheGuitarHub.com
    The only Forum for players by players.......

    Playing Les Pauls, Teles, Hubers, Gustavssons, Kolls through a Mad Professor amp with a Bob Burt Cab.
    BJF powers my Pedal Board
  • exhaustedexhausted Posts: 6,638
    i was focusing more on the size of the board with my statement.

    certainly there are changes that could be made but i just don't have the frame of reference to make qualified suggestions.
  • Dirty_FrankDirty_Frank Posts: 957
    When Stone was using the Savage I think he sounded best. I don't expect them to go all out back to 1992 high gain tonality, but with songs like SOLAT and Once, it needs it to give a bit more ooomph.

    I understand that as players get older and more experienced that they drop the gain substantially. I used to play uber distorted scoop sounds, but now I rarely turn it up past half way and rely more on overdriven tones. I still have the ability however to give er' shit when it's needed.
  • StuffnJunkStuffnJunk Posts: 896
    i was listening to do the evolution from 2 shows i was at:

    jones beach 2000 (distorted les paul)

    st johns 2005 (clean strat)

    a world of difference, if anything 2000 was too thick and distorted......i noticed the clean strat sound is closer to the sound of the studio version of DTE

    when i started playing i would crank the distortion full blast when i played any type of PJ/nirvana type song......what i slowly started to realize is they never used that much distortion, not even on the loudest, heaviest songs (maybe kurt did)..........too much distortion turns things to mush, less distortion gives a clearer crunchy sound
    "I'll tell you what: If all I had was Pearl Jam, and I didn't have another band in the world, I would not be worried. Because in there is the essence of making great music. You don't have to use it all at once, but it's there." - Neil Young
  • pjfan020pjfan020 Posts: 426
    enharmonic wrote:
    Listen to the anger in Pete Townsend's guitar, or the rudeness of Jimmy Page. Those guys knew what was up, and that's why 40 years on, we're still hearing their stuff up against the latest greatest uber distorted bullshit.

    Actually, I just bought the who live at albert's hall in '01 and Townshend uses some mad distortion. With anything he used more distortion on that album than any live stuff i've heard or seen from the 70's. I'm not saying mike has to load on distortion, but when you play a song a certain way like even flow, if you take away too much distortion I think it takes away from the song.
    "Tonight we're just gonna play you some good old American Rock and Roll." tom petty-7-15-05
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