Looping Pedals?

digster

Hello everyone. I'm pretty much tech illiterate, so I thought I'd post on here for suggestions and such. My tale is this; I'm in a band with myself playing guitar and vocals, and my friend playing drums. We've been on and off at this for a few years, and we've both commented on the fact that we have no low-end, and have talked about trying to find a bassist. Thing is, we're both terrible at asking others to form a band, and we also like the chemistry we've set up. Although we don't always like the music, we really like the creativity inherent in small bands like the White Stripes and Black Keys. So we were stuck in a rut a bit.

Luckily I saw Liam Finn a few nights ago, and I got re-inspired. By using a (presumably) bass pedal, he got bass sounds out of his Telecaster and then could loop them. This seemed like the perfect solution for our band; we could get a much more full sound but still keep it in house. So, first question is if anyone would suggest a quality bass pedal and a quality looping pedal. I think I'd be plenty happy with a pedal that could sustain four loops.

Now, my one problem is that we don't really build our songs piece by piece like Liam does, so what I'd have to do is play the bass parts before we began the song proper and then call them up for the proper moments in the song. Now (here's where it gets silly), presuming and hoping that we may ever actually build a fanbase who have interest and a stake in our songs, I don't want to show my hand about what song we're going to play beforehand by playing all the bass parts. So my other question is if there is such a looping pedal that has a headphone jack or something of that sort so I could play my bass parts only to myself, but still be able to hear them to know they're correct? If so, I could record my bass parts before each song to myself, so I'll know they sound correct but do not ruin any surprise for an audience.

These are some strange, dumb questions, and I hope I explained myself properly. Thanks for the help.

exhausted

for bass pedals, have a look at the electro-harmonix micro-pog, the boss OC-3 or PS-5. there are a few others as well. i like the micro-pog for accuracy.

as for the looping, i suppose it would simply be a matter of re-routing the output of the pedal from the PA (or amp) to a headphone amp or something. the pedal itself shouldn't need anything special. reroute to the headphone amp - record the part - reroute to amp - continue.

if you were using in-ear monitors (which I assume you're not) you could route the signal to a mixer channel that's turned down for the house but up in the monitors.

a lot of the loopers on the market allow you to store samples but i don't think you want to do that.

digster

exhausted wrote:

for bass pedals, have a look at the electro-harmonix micro-pog, the boss OC-3 or PS-5. there are a few others as well. i like the micro-pog for accuracy.

as for the looping, i suppose it would simply be a matter of re-routing the output of the pedal from the PA (or amp) to a headphone amp or something. the pedal itself shouldn't need anything special. reroute to the headphone amp - record the part - reroute to amp - continue.

if you were using in-ear monitors (which I assume you're not) you could route the signal to a mixer channel that's turned down for the house but up in the monitors.

a lot of the loopers on the market allow you to store samples but i don't think you want to do that.

Thank you very much for the tips.

If by "storing samples" you mean pre-recording bass parts and such and then bringing them up for the appropriate song, you're definetely right in that's not the way I want to go. I thought about this a bunch; I mean, pre-recorded bass parts would definetely help with the momentum (I have to find a way to get around stopping for over a minute or more between songs to record bass parts), but to my warped sense of live performance it would feel to me like I was cheating if any sound coming from the show was not being made "on the spot" so to speak.

I'll check out those bass pedals. Thanks.

Finally, in regards to looping. My Fender amp has a headphone jack like everyone, so at first I was thinking that I'd just plug and unplug the headphones as needed to create the bass parts silently. But it seems like a lot of time to be spent fiddling with the headphone jack to do the parts, and I'd be trying to keep the time between songs as short as possible. You're saying another amp might be the answer? As I said, I'm pretty tech illiterate, so I wasn't following exactly.

I'm lucky though, cause ever since I've had this idea I've been studying my songs, and although they never have shifts in tone, tempo etc they're mostly capable of riding one or two bass lines through the entirety of the song, which would make the time between songs easier to manage (better to make two bass lines on the spot than four or five).

MonsterOfTheMidway

I am a big looper. I have a bunch of loop pedals and such like the Digitech Jam Man and a Boss DD-20 Delay. But the best one I've used by far is the Line 6 DL-4. It's a delay pedal but has a loop sampler function that so easy to use. The only thing is that you can't save the loops, but it's a great pedal.

xtremehardy388

If you're looking for a short loop, the DD6 and Digitech Digidelay are the way to go. The DD7 and Nova delay are great for long (as well as the DL4, which has been said). For bass, the OC2 IMO is better than the OC3. However, the pog/micro pog is the best bet. I used the Digitech Digidelay and OC2 for bass parts during the solos on Immortality, Army Reserve, Evenflow, and RVM.

digster

When you say you cannot "save the loops", what exactly does that mean? Does it mean you cannot store them? I mean, what I would need is about four "channels" for lack of a better word, where I would (for example) record the bass parts for my song's verse, chorus and bridge and then punch them in at the appropriate moments for the songs. Then I could maybe record my guitar part in the fourth channel and loop it so I could solo or something. Is that what you mean when you say I cannot save loops?

Sorry, I know I'm probably not explaining this as well as I could. I hope I'm getting my questions across. Thanks again to everyone.

MonsterOfTheMidway

digster wrote:

When you say you cannot "save the loops", what exactly does that mean? Does it mean you cannot store them? I mean, what I would need is about four "channels" for lack of a better word, where I would (for example) record the bass parts for my song's verse, chorus and bridge and then punch them in at the appropriate moments for the songs. Then I could maybe record my guitar part in the fourth channel and loop it so I could solo or something. Is that what you mean when you say I cannot save loops?

Sorry, I know I'm probably not explaining this as well as I could. I hope I'm getting my questions across. Thanks again to everyone.

Yeah, you can't store the loops on the DL-4. Maybe try the Boss Loop Station? DL-4 is just for live loops, but it's so easy and so awesome. I love that pedal and I'm thinking about buying a second one for my keyboard.

exhausted

digster wrote:

When you say you cannot "save the loops", what exactly does that mean? Does it mean you cannot store them? I mean, what I would need is about four "channels" for lack of a better word, where I would (for example) record the bass parts for my song's verse, chorus and bridge and then punch them in at the appropriate moments for the songs. Then I could maybe record my guitar part in the fourth channel and loop it so I could solo or something. Is that what you mean when you say I cannot save loops?

Sorry, I know I'm probably not explaining this as well as I could. I hope I'm getting my questions across. Thanks again to everyone.

you're getting into boss RC-50 territory there and, honestly, trying to do that many loops live, before a song starts, by yourself is not going to be feasible. from an audience standpoint, i think it would kill all momentum.

i can totally understand not wanting to go pre-recorded but trying to do multiple parts on the fly is a large mountain to climb.

you'll need a looper with save capability if you go this route so you're looking at the boss RC-2, RC-20XL or RC-50, the digitech jamman etc.

all the others mentioned will only store one loop at a time. for instance, the DL4 loses it's loop as soon as you go to record a new one. no way to do three separate loops for call-up.

digster

exhausted wrote:

you're getting into boss RC-50 territory there and, honestly, trying to do that many loops live, before a song starts, by yourself is not going to be feasible. from an audience standpoint, i think it would kill all momentum.

i can totally understand not wanting to go pre-recorded but trying to do multiple parts on the fly is a large mountain to climb.

It's definetely a good point, and it's something I've been considering. I think it's possible if I limit it to one or two lines beforehand; I mean, if I only record two measures and put that in a loop, that'll probably take a total of 20 seconds to set that up. It might fall flat on its face, but I think it's possible. I'm just going to have to be precise with my footwork, which has never been a strength of mine.

ianvomsaal

And the RC-50 has some serious firmware problems - notorious for loops slowing down and changing pitch.
Roland/Boss are fully aware of this problem, but the latency issues, tempo changes, and sync problems with
midi still haven't been resolved yet - I suggest you get yourself an RC-20 or JamMan instead.

The biggest problem is that you want to save all these pre-recorded loops, and unfortunately you'll run into
issues of input level and volume output levels not meshing up well from venue to venue - at some places you'll
need to be louder, some you'll need to be quieter - and unfortunately the levels on pre-recorded tracks can't
be changed easily without it effecting the overall volume of everything else - all the volumes will need to be
adjusted to compensate for the changes made to the output or input - the levels are basically interactive.
Also, the precise timing needed to sync everything up can be a real problem for some people - it takes some
work to get right without sounding off, and adding multiple recorded tracks on that just multiplies the room
for error of everything falling short or completely collapsing.

The easiest thing to do is either:
1). Audition a bassist - simple, just place an add in craigslist (or wherever) with exactly what you're looking
for, have them come out for an audition - and you don't have to call anyone back that doesn't mesh well.
2). Get yourself something similar to a Moog Taurus Bass Pedal (and learn to use it). Alex Lifeson used one
of those Moog's before he switched to a Korg MIDI pedal in the 80's (used as a trigger for a ton of stuff).
3). Kind of simplify things by just learning to record on the fly with an RC-20 or JamMan (takes practice).
4). I'm sure someone will come up with another option (like do without).

digster

Thanks for the responses. We might end up bringing in a bassist, it's just that me and the drummer have grown in our musical relationship over a period of four years. We're also both control freaks who can argue for hours about whether a bridge should go a half-second longer, so we don't know if we're ready yet to bring in another voice. We'll probably get there but in the meantime I thought this might be a creative way to approach the lack of low end.

Now, to bring it full circle, since Liam Finn inspired me in this regard...

http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=300057

According to that thread it sounds like Liam has the Line 6 DL4 looping pedal, which others mentioned in this thread. Liam would have the ability to create every sound onstage, and then silence those sounds when necessary and bring them back into the song when necessary. i.e. during the song Second Chance, he starts with guitar, uses his loop pedal to add bass and accompanying guitar parts, and then returns to guitar and just can bring back the other parts at a moment's notice. Why, then, would it be impossible to record those parts before the song so I can insert them when needed? There's no loop pedal that would allow me to make one bass line, store it, make a second bass line and then switch between them when the song requires it? I thought that's what Liam was capable of doing, but perhaps I'm wrong.

I keep saying it, but thanks again everyone. I'm sure I'm somewhat talking in circles.

xtremehardy388

digster wrote:

Thanks for the responses. We might end up bringing in a bassist, it's just that me and the drummer have grown in our musical relationship over a period of four years. We're also both control freaks who can argue for hours about whether a bridge should go a half-second longer, so we don't know if we're ready yet to bring in another voice. We'll probably get there but in the meantime I thought this might be a creative way to approach the lack of low end.

Now, to bring it full circle, since Liam Finn inspired me in this regard...

http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=300057

According to that thread it sounds like Liam has the Line 6 DL4 looping pedal, which others mentioned in this thread. Liam would have the ability to create every sound onstage, and then silence those sounds when necessary and bring them back into the song when necessary. i.e. during the song Second Chance, he starts with guitar, uses his loop pedal to add bass and accompanying guitar parts, and then returns to guitar and just can bring back the other parts at a moment's notice. Why, then, would it be impossible to record those parts before the song so I can insert them when needed? There's no loop pedal that would allow me to make one bass line, store it, make a second bass line and then switch between them when the song requires it? I thought that's what Liam was capable of doing, but perhaps I'm wrong.

I keep saying it, but thanks again everyone. I'm sure I'm somewhat talking in circles.

On the DL4 you can preset delays but not looped tracks. Now, on both of my delay pedals, I can record something and turn the level off and then turn it up when I want that (but I'm sure Liam doesn't do that). Liam uses the DL4 but I think you can store delays in the BOSS Loop station. I'm not sure, you'd have to ask someone else on this.

exhausted

digster wrote:

According to that thread it sounds like Liam has the Line 6 DL4 looping pedal, which others mentioned in this thread. Liam would have the ability to create every sound onstage, and then silence those sounds when necessary and bring them back into the song when necessary. i.e. during the song Second Chance, he starts with guitar, uses his loop pedal to add bass and accompanying guitar parts, and then returns to guitar and just can bring back the other parts at a moment's notice. Why, then, would it be impossible to record those parts before the song so I can insert them when needed? There's no loop pedal that would allow me to make one bass line, store it, make a second bass line and then switch between them when the song requires it? I thought that's what Liam was capable of doing, but perhaps I'm wrong.

.

the DL4 only allows one loop to exist at a time. you can overdub many layers but it's still the same loop.

the boss RC series will allow you to do want you want. it's just that recording all these loops, storing them before the song starts, calling them up when needed with precision and accuracy (remembering which patch is which etc in the heat of performance), is more trouble that it's worth to me.

liam finn is using one loop at a time and building on that one loop. if he needs another loop, the last one is gone. he can start and stop one loop all he likes but if he goes to record a new one, the old one is lost. (this is when i saw him, he had a DL4, perhaps he's upgraded since then).


at best, i'd say, if you're going to try this live, use the looper to provide rhythm for a solo break, or start to write songs around a constant chord progression that will only require one loop.

digster

exhausted wrote:

the DL4 only allows one loop to exist at a time. you can overdub many layers but it's still the same loop.

the boss RC series will allow you to do want you want. it's just that recording all these loops, storing them before the song starts, calling them up when needed with precision and accuracy (remembering which patch is which etc in the heat of performance), is more trouble that it's worth to me.

liam finn is using one loop at a time and building on that one loop. if he needs another loop, the last one is gone. he can start and stop one loop all he likes but if he goes to record a new one, the old one is lost. (this is when i saw him, he had a DL4, perhaps he's upgraded since then).


at best, i'd say, if you're going to try this live, use the looper to provide rhythm for a solo break, or start to write songs around a constant chord progression that will only require one loop.

Actually, that was extremely informative, thanks alot. I now understand the differentiation between what Liam was doing and what I had in mind. I'm just surprised that there's not a more simple way to do what I was thinking about trying to do. I'll just have to re-evaluate what I have in mind. So when Liam builds loop upon loop, those guitar parts he creates do not exist in separate 'channels' so to speak...it's all one part that could be called up at random.

It's possible I could focus on the songs that could sustain one bass loop throughout the whole song. I was just trying to find a middle ground, because I do think we need some bass in our songs but I like the dichotomy we set up in our musical 'relationship' (for lack of a better term).

Edit: One question though about the Boss RC series; how does it work, i.e. how do you pull up different loops and set them to work at different times? It seems to me like the simplest option would be to have 4 buttons, one to turn each loop on and pressing it again turns it off, but it doesn't look like there's that many buttons, i.e. it has a singular pedal same as an overdrive, tuner, etc. So how the hell would that work? How do you pull up loops quickly if need be, or is the whole point that you can't?

If that's the case, if I did look for a loop pedal I'd probably have to find one where different pedals correspond to the different loops (like, with 4 loops available, have 4 foot pedals). We'll see. Thanks again.

edit again: I've been checking youtube tutorials, trying to get a feel for the different pedals, and here's one I found for the Boss RC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFQJwPpTco4&feature=related . Judging from that, that doesn't seem to be what I'm looking for. It looks like, to switch from one loop to another (i.e. not building one on top of another, but switching among them), you'd need to bend down to switch the toggle by hand. That won't do; I would need one where it could all be operated by foot. The best option would be a simple (but large) thing with four pedals. You step on one pedal, it starts recording, and when you press again it stops, but when you step on it a third time it plays what you previously recorded. You then could do this with four tracks...but then I'm realizing that to switch bass lines, you'd need to turn off one bass line and then turn on another and if a split-second change is needed that won't do, unless that imaginary four-footpedal I spoke of had a function where one track playing would immediately turn off if you turned on a second track. Whew, sorry guys, I'm confusing myself; I just don't know if something like that exists.

Thanks again for all the help.

exhausted

you can get an extension pedal to use with the RC that let's you toggle back and forth through saved loops. The RC-50 may allow one button per loop. I haven't looked at it in detail.

exhausted

line 6 also has a new looper to compete with the RC20. Check it out too. The JM4.

digster

The main sticking point is I think I would need a looper that has separate pedals for each loop. I don't need many loops, and I don't pretend to be that good a guitar player. I'm not too worried about the time between songs, since for the songs that require bass parts pre-made I can just do two measures and it would repeat ad nauseam. Probably take thirty seconds tops. But I need to immediately be able to switch between one bass line and another. If I can't do that, I don't think it'll work.

I'll probably head to a guitar center, not to buy, but just to be able to check with someone, get some hands on experience and what not. And then I'll go from there. My options, as I want to pursue them, are either...

1) Find a pedal like the one I described (if it exists) and go with that, also getting a bass pedal.
2) Adjust my songs if need be so that they either can survive and thrive with one bass line throughout the song and/or adjust them so they'd work better with something like the Line DL4 where I can build the songs one loop on top of the other without having to switch between channels.
3) Find a bassist, or find another guitarist and get a bass pedal to handle bass parts myself when necessary.

So many options, don't really know which one to follow. Nos 2 and 3 would properly grant me the most freedom, but I'm definetely a subscriber of the idea that you force yourself into creativity through limitation. So I'm still a bit wary of adding another bass player.

Of course, my drummer and I need to be in the same city again, which hasn't been for a few months. So unfortunately these points may soon be moot.

Novawind

For what it's worth, the RC-20XL is awesome. (And you can use an external FS-6 pedal to select between pre-saved loops (you can have up to 11).

ianvomsaal

I don't know that you'll be able to do what you're wanting to do, at least not without multiple loopers (and maybe a pan pedal so you can pan between each pedal in the middle of a song, but again syncing them up can be a real issue). Unfortunately you'll probably be tap-dancing like a fiend to much to easily be able to turn one off and the other on while playing a song, not to mention having them sync'd up so that they actually start at the correct time (timing with all these pedals is everything, so if something is slightly off everything is off). And I think you'd probably be tap dancing way to much to be able to focus on the performance, not to mention being able to start each bass loop part within the song at the appropriate time without a lag somewhere (which will throw everything else off). If you're to late or to early with the loop it can be disastrous to timing (especially playing with a drummer). And I'll reiterate the volume sync issues that can occur with pre-recorded loops. Sure you can pre-record loops (no big deal). You can also switch between loops in a song via a footswitch (you will have to scroll back and forth), but syncing them is a problem. And as I said, the other big issue is that you need to record the loop at the same volume that you play it live - then not mess with the volume on anything or there's inconsistencies with volume from guitar to amp, or pedal to amp, or both (meaning the levels won't equal - something will be to loud). Anyhow, some things to think about.

digster

ianvomsaal wrote:

I don't know that you'll be able to do what you're wanting to do, at least not without multiple loopers (and maybe a pan pedal so you can pan between each pedal in the middle of a song, but again syncing them up can be a real issue). Unfortunately you'll probably be tap-dancing like a fiend to much to easily be able to turn one off and the other on while playing a song, not to mention having them sync'd up so that they actually start at the correct time (timing with all these pedals is everything, so if something is slightly off everything is off).

I agree entirely, and I'm definitely one for ease of use. Multiple loopers would be a possibility, but I think I need a loop pedal that has an individual pedal for each loop. For example, if there was a pedal (or actually I guess a pedalboard) that I stored a verse bass line in pedal 1 and a chorus bass line in pedal 2, the pedal would need to be designed so if pedal 1's bass line was playing, I wouldn't have to turn off pedal 1 and then turn on pedal 2, because that's unsyncable for a verse that goes directly into a chorus. What could possibly work is if by turning on the chorus bass line of pedal 2, it automatically turned off the bass line of pedal 1. But then that would mean that I would only be using one loop at a time.

ianvomsaal

Laptop with a midi foot controller . . . then just being able to sync the start and stop between
the chorus and verse. There's small latency issues with all of it (loop pedals and computers).
This is what I mean about syncing everything up - starting everything exactly is the issue.
Get a bassist & all these issues magically go away . . . or get the Moog Taurus I mentioned.

digster

ianvomsaal wrote:

Laptop with a midi foot controller . . . then just being able to sync the start and stop between
the chorus and verse. There's small latency issues with all of it (loop pedals and computers).
This is what I mean about syncing everything up - starting everything exactly is the issue.
Get a bassist & all these issues magically go away . . . or get the Moog Taurus I mentioned.

Considering how rare those Moog Tauruses seem to be, I can imagine that one of those is probably way out of my price range. I'm not even quite sure how it works. If I do go with anything, it'll probably be a bass pedal and maybe a Boss RC pedal or even more possibly a Line DL4. Basically rip off Liam Finn and get started. I'm sure we'll eventually start a band, but we're still trying to establish our own sound, and this kind of work will make us a little more unique than the average band (hopefully). I'm thinking hopefully that the majority of my songs would be able to work with one bass line which would be so much easier to work with. I'm just gonna have to go try everything out.

xtremehardy388

digster wrote:

Considering how rare those Moog Tauruses seem to be, I can imagine that one of those is probably way out of my price range. I'm not even quite sure how it works. If I do go with anything, it'll probably be a bass pedal and maybe a Boss RC pedal or even more possibly a Line DL4. Basically rip off Liam Finn and get started. I'm sure we'll eventually start a band, but we're still trying to establish our own sound, and this kind of work will make us a little more unique than the average band (hopefully). I'm thinking hopefully that the majority of my songs would be able to work with one bass line which would be so much easier to work with. I'm just gonna have to go try everything out.

If it's a Moog, it'll cost more than your house.

ianvomsaal

xtremehardy388 wrote:

If it's a Moog, it'll cost more than your house.

I originally said something similar to the Taurus.
Roland does make a PK-5A midi-controller very similar to this.
Then just get a Sampler and some bass samples and you're set.
Fatar also makes MIDI Bass Pedal Board (MP113 & MP117).
Anything like this will give you the ability to play bass sounds with your feet.
Or as I said, you can program bass loops into a computer & trigger it via a midi pedal.

BinFrog

xtremehardy388 wrote:

If it's a Moog, it'll cost more than your house.

But I do love my MoogerFooger pedals

xtremehardy388

BinFrog wrote:

But I do love my MoogerFooger pedals

How jealous I am that you have a few. Which ones do you have?

BinFrog

xtremehardy388 wrote:

How jealous I am that you have a few. Which ones do you have?

http://www.dreamt.org/spinfrog/guitars/Pedalboard.jpg

Tooooooooooooooys

digster

Pedal boards are so cool. I don't understand them for the life of me, but they are so cool.

xtremehardy388

BinFrog wrote:

http://www.dreamt.org/spinfrog/guitars/Pedalboard.jpg

Tooooooooooooooys

Oh yeah, that's you...the one with an awesome board, haha. What moogs are those?

Novawind

Ring mod makes some funky sounds (mostly dissonant sounds). Mike Einziger from Incubus uses one on a few songs.

Low-Pass filter is essentially an envelope filter or "auto-wah" pedal.

xtremehardy388

Novawind wrote:

Ring mod makes some funky sounds (mostly dissonant sounds). Mike Einziger from Incubus uses one on a few songs.

Low-Pass filter is essentially an envelope filter or "auto-wah" pedal.

Mike Einziger used them a LOT on Morning View, Make Yourself, and Crow Left of the Murder. I think PJ and Incubus are the biggest influences on my music.