help with guitar solos

Betterman77

Ok When I solo, I just play it by ear, for example with writing my own songs with our band, I'll improvise through a solo and alot of times the rest of the guys will say your solo sounded good at first but you were going off key after, now good guitar players will do solos, moving from middle of the neck to top, to bottom playing lead all in the right key, now is there any tips or tricks to knowing where to go on the neck while playing solos, im getting frustrated by going off key at times with my solos cause i really don't know where to always go on the neck to keep it in the right key when soloing. so I need some help please.

Thumbing My Way

Betterman77 wrote:

Ok When I solo, I just play it by ear, for example with writing my own songs with our band, I'll improvise through a solo and alot of times the rest of the guys will say your solo sounded good at first but you were going off key after, now good guitar players will do solos, moving from middle of the neck to top, to bottom playing lead all in the right key, now is there any tips or tricks to knowing where to go on the neck while playing solos, im getting frustrated by going off key at times with my solos cause i really don't know where to always go on the neck to keep it in the right key when soloing. so I need some help please.

I was wondering the exact same thing yesterday actually, and mentioned it to my friend.....we were talking about it for a bit too.

That's crazy!!

He had no idea though, so some help would be great for both of us.

HailHailVitalogy

yeah its hard....keep going by ear, it will keep developing thats what I do, if it doesnt sound right for that second i hit the note..ill bend it higher

Betterman77

Yeah it is hard, I have had people tell me that learning all the scales and shit will make you a good soloist, but damn thats alot of stuff to memorize, I have seen some amazing guitar players that say they don't know the names of keys or scales but can play lead guitar really good, and stay in key and find the right places on the fretboard.

Thumbing My Way

I find it so hard to solo on frets 2 3 4 5...but I love the sound!!!!

It's really tough to bend those strings....

HeavyMetalNyge

I think I can give a somewhat easy answer to this hard question. If you're talking about doing crazy 80's solos using different modes and all that, this is not for you. I'm talking about doing solos similar to what Mike's known for using the major and minor pentatonic scales. There are 5 patterns you need to memorize. One book that I've found that really helps explain them and helps you learn the order of these patterns is called Blues You Can Use by John Ganapes. So either look for info on the pentatonic scales on the internet, or look into getting that book or any other one that explains this concept.

harrisonmerwin

I suggest The fretboard logic series, im locally renowned now, lol

HM

moster78

As long as you're playing notes in a scale of the key you're playing in it should be OK.

BinFrog

If the chords you are soloing over are all in the same key, you can always just try the minor pentatonic scale off of the 2nd, 3rd or 6th note of the scale.

For instance:

C Dm Em F G Am Bdim

That is the C major scale. If you are jamming to C, F, G try playing the Dm pentatonic scale or the Am pentatonic scale. In this case, try the Am:

e 5 8
B 5 8
G 5 7
D 5 7
A 5 7
E 5 8

If that sounds good to your ears but you want some more notes to tool around with, figure out what notes you are playing there, and then figure out what notes inside and outside of that pattern are in the C major scale that you are not playing in the minor pentatonic scale. As in:

Am Pent scale has these notes: A, C, D, E, G. So missing from that scale is B and F from the C major scale. See if you can throw those in from time to time while playing the Am pent scale. Maybe just use them as accents (throwing in the F for instance on the B string on the 6th fret every once in a while, and then pulling off to E, then to D and C on the G string is very Allman Bros-esque).

Betterman77

Am Pent scale has these notes: A, C, D, E, G. So missing from that scale is B and F from the C major scale. See if you can throw those in from time to time while playing the Am pent scale. Maybe just use them as accents (throwing in the F for instance on the B string on the 6th fret every once in a while, and then pulling off to E, then to D and C on the G string is very Allman Bros-esque).[/quote]


Ok lets see if I get this, I went to a web site that had some good info, lets see if i understand it, I saw a G Pentatonic Major scale and it had patterns titled C scale, A scale, G scale, E scale, D scale patterns, now it showed tab fingerings playing a example pattern on various places on the fret board, now my question is, by playing anything in these 5 scale patterns (CAGED) am I always playing a solo in the key of G, will I always be in the right key if I play in these places on the fretboard?

BinFrog

CAGED doesn't quite work like that. It has to do with scale patterns based around major chord shapes. You need to know what your root chord is to figure out how to used the CAGED system.

This might help:

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/scales/scale_shapes_in_caged_system.html

HeavyMetalNyge

I really think that as a beginner, memorizing shapes such as in the CAGED system or the 5 pentatonic box shapes as described in the book I listed above. You really can't be expected to figure out all of the notes in the scale and instantaneously transpose that to the fretboard in the middle of a face melting solo, at least I know I couldn't do that and I've been playing guitar for 7 years and I play live gigs 1-3 times per week. That's why I rely on shapes on the fretboard, as well as my ear. You get up there and because you know the shapes, you already have a picture in your mind where the basic notes are and you can just feel the rhythm of the song and at least play something that you know will be in the right key. All you have to know is what key the song is in, whether you want to use the major or minor scale, and the order of the 5 boxes I mentioned relative to each other. I find that to be the easiest way to make it sound like you know what you're doing. People tend to stress music theory too much. You don't initially need to know all that technical stuff starting out. You'll pick that up as you go.

prytocorduroy

I play bass and like to venture off the verse/chorus to spice up the song a bit (nothing big, best example would be something along the lines of Mike Dirnt or Cliff Burton (I'm NOWHERE near as good as them) where they keep the groove of the song but outbreak with little stuff here and there).

Doubt this'll help a guitarist but what works best for me is working with octaves (high and low), playing chords out in indivdual notes (like playing E B e instead of an E power chord all at once) and their compliments, and open notes to fill. It doesn't hurt to know a few scales because you can fall back into it if you get stuck on not knowing what to do next. And hammer on/pull offs can save you easily. If you hear a sour note, slide to the nearest good note.

Doubt this is useful for guitar but it works wonders for bass!

Betterman77

BinFrog wrote:

CAGED doesn't quite work like that. It has to do with scale patterns based around major chord shapes. You need to know what your root chord is to figure out how to used the CAGED system.

This might help:

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/scales/scale_shapes_in_caged_system.html

Well still seems all confusing to me, lol, im not bad at lead at all I mean like with speed and all or comming up with a catchy lead or whatever, its just not knowing where to go on the fretboard is whats frustrating, I wanna get to the point where I'll have total control over the fret board and be able to jame with others and if they say here is a song in the key of D, that i'll be able to throw lead all over it and keep it in key.

WindNoSail

HeavyMetalNyge wrote:

I think I can give a somewhat easy answer to this hard question. If you're talking about doing crazy 80's solos using different modes and all that, this is not for you. I'm talking about doing solos similar to what Mike's known for using the major and minor pentatonic scales. There are 5 patterns you need to memorize. One book that I've found that really helps explain them and helps you learn the order of these patterns is called Blues You Can Use by John Ganapes. So either look for info on the pentatonic scales on the internet, or look into getting that book or any other one that explains this concept.

harrisonmerwin wrote:

I suggest The fretboard logic series, im locally renowned now, lol

HM

I agree wholeheartedly...I am not a soloist but knowing the scales/patterns is the key to the key. Ionian, Phrygian, Dorian, and the others that I can't remember the names of plus he major and minor pentatonic will make your understanding grow. Just a pattern, applied to the right position will keep you in key. Once you get it, you won't forget it.

BinFrog

Betterman77 wrote:

Well still seems all confusing to me, lol, im not bad at lead at all I mean like with speed and all or comming up with a catchy lead or whatever, its just not knowing where to go on the fretboard is whats frustrating, I wanna get to the point where I'll have total control over the fret board and be able to jame with others and if they say here is a song in the key of D, that i'll be able to throw lead all over it and keep it in key.

I suggest learning some major scale patterns. Get 2-3 of them down comfortably. Then figure our how the pentatonic scales work with the major scales: as in what notes are taken out of the scale for form a pentatonic scale? If someone says they are in the key of D, you have many, many choices as to what scale(s) to play. Obviously just playing the Dmaj scale would work but it might sound a little forced. So you could try the Em, F#m or Bm pentatonic scales, or if it is more of an upbeat song you would always try the A mixolydian scale. You need to listen to what kind of mood the chords are going for. Being "in the key of D" just tells you what notes are acceptable, not which are going to fit the song. A lot of it has to do with just listening to the song. You need to be able to hear, while you are soloing, which notes need emphasis and which are just passing notes.

BinFrog

WindNoSail wrote:

I agree wholeheartedly...I am not a soloist but knowing the scales/patterns is the key to the key. Ionian, Phrygian, Dorian, and the others that I can't remember the names of plus he major and minor pentatonic will make your understanding grow. Just a pattern, applied to the right position will keep you in key. Once you get it, you won't forget it.

I Ionian (Maj, Maj7)
II Dorian (Min)
III Phrygian (Min)
IV Lydian (Maj, Maj7)
V Mixolydian (Maj, 7th)
VI Aeolian (Min)
VII Locrian (Dim)

letempo

Ben playing for a loong time.


One great approach is to play along to backing tracks. You can make your own if you have a tape player. keep it in one key, one chord, your favourite PJ song , or a jazz turnaround, whatever works for you).

Then play some sequences over the top. one note, two notes, any notes, anywhere on the neck, whatever you want. Imagine talking - you use words and phrases. Make up some new words and sentences, and repeat em over and over ;-)

Just play and repeat the same phrase, using different accents, dynamics (get louder or softer or vary the dynamics), bends, slides. once you've exhausted one, rewind the tape and do another. Keep in mind what you feel and hear when you play the patterns.

Then go back and work out what you played in the context of the key... you'll be surprised how many "outside" notes you'll have played

If youre going to study anything, learn your pentatonics (major and minor). They are a real lazy way of understanding the neck. Importantly, learn what the notes outside the shapes do in a key. They're the ones that will really add emotion and movement to your playing.

If you want to make your own voice, understand all the intervals in a key and how each one makes you feel... in improvisation, that's the key thing - if it makes you feel something then you can bet your arse that it will affect other people in a similar way.


Ok, so I have a kinda zen approach to learning the guitar, but it works ;-)


Andy

ps anyone whose interested PM me for explanations / lessons...

letempo

Oh yeah, I meant to say, the modes that the other guys mention are really great technical ways of understanding structure and form...

However, if you consider a car - do you want to learn how to drive it well or do you want to understand how the combustion engine works?

If you want to understand the nitty gritty of what modes are then do that (I have done that over the years & know all me modes off pat) but if you want to get a reaction from people and move people and to have your own voice, you need to first find the feel then later understand *why* it made you feel....


Andy

(the ole hippy)

BinFrog

letempo wrote:

Oh yeah, I meant to say, the modes that the other guys mention are really great technical ways of understanding structure and form...

However, if you consider a car - do you want to learn how to drive it well or do you want to understand how the combustion engine works?

If you want to understand the nitty gritty of what modes are then do that (I have done that over the years & know all me modes off pat) but if you want to get a reaction from people and move people and to have your own voice, you need to first find the feel then later understand *why* it made you feel....


Andy

(the ole hippy)

Ah, but the same can be said for going the other way. I've been playing for about 11 years, and taking lessong since October of 2004. Now that my fingers know where to go (a lot more than they used to at least) I can really open up and let my feeling pour out through the guitar. Sure I am still tentative and still think about where I want to go, but I have a lot more confidence to try things. I can hear things in my head and actually play them...often in realtime which is something I could never do previously.

Betterman77

Ok well Thanks to all you guys who have given input and time to this thread, it has helped me out. Its just been getting to the point for me that I don't want to feel limited to what I can currently do with a guitar, Just gotta keep working to get to the point where I can comfortably do what I want when I want. Want to control the guitar not have it control me, but once again thanks for all your input. "Keep On Rockin In The Free World"

BinFrog

Just bite off small chunks at a time. It's easy to get overwhelmed.

Pearl-Fighter

Learn the Pent scale. You can move that around, and its pretty basic...its all pretty much been said I guess.

Manstis1604

Its all practice. If you don't know scales and don't want to learn them, just play a lot. Get to understand how to craft the melody thats in your head. When you're soloing, you need to think about what you want the solo to sound like. When you're listening to what the band is playing, just think to yourself, "what is the best possible thing I could play right here?" Not the flashiest thing, the thing that sounds the best with the song. Practice playing certain intervals, get to understand what a half-step sounds like, a whole-step, 4 frets, 6 frets, octaves, etc.. That way, when you hear that in your head, you can apply it to your fingers in the split second without thinking about it. That's the secret to being a great guitarist, just knowing what you want and being able to do it all at the same time. Its tough, but doable. I've been playing for almost 6 years now, and I've gotten to that point where I can almost do whatever I want on the guitar. Of course, that's with a tiny bit of theory and knowing the major and minor scales in all keys. Depending on what you want to play, you really don't need to know much more than that. I would recommend learning all major and minor scales, one "off" scale like the harmonic minor or some jazz scale to throw yourself in a different space, pentatonic minor, and some basic music theory, just knowing intervals like 5ths, 7ths, 6ths, 3rds, etc. The scales sound a lot tougher to learn than they are, they're all moveable, like the pattern for the E minor scale is the same as the A minor scale, you just move the starting place. If you have the money, just take lessons, you'll learn everything you need because they'll teach you anything that you want them to.

Betterman77

Yeah I do try to play leads that fit the song. I mean sometimes a song will call for a off the wall lead, but sometimes just sweet simple a few single notes here and there are amazing to, I know what you mean with that. For example look at the solo for World Wide Suicide, so damn easy basic but fits that song perfectly. Thats why I think Mike McCready is a guitar God, theres so many guitarists out there who kinda keep thier solo's sorta the same style all the time which defineatly gets boring, Mike does all kinds of stuff so many different varieties. As soon as I can keep in KEy 100% of the time, then I know I'll be good player. Other players tell me I got the speed down, the groove and all that, just tend to freeze at times or go off the path once in a while, LOL

Pearl Jam and toast

HailHailVitalogy wrote:

yeah its hard....keep going by ear, it will keep developing thats what I do, if it doesnt sound right for that second i hit the note..ill bend it higher

it is NOT hard!

just practice and become more familiar with the neck!

PRACTICE!

that's the best answer to 99% of questions on here

Manstis1604

A good way of practicing improv soloing is just to sit down and start soloing in a key, and if you mess up repeat your mistakes and see what you can make of them. Jimmy Page and Robby Krieger both did this a lot, repeating mistakes until they fit. Its not all about melody either, if you play a phrase that sounds "off", mess with the tempo and those kinds of things. That way, you find new avenues to express yourself. A lot of the time a note that sounds wrong can sound great if its resolved properly. Just remember this: if you hit a bad note, the right one is just a half step away.

Manstis1604

Oh yeah, one more thing haha. Relative scales are a huge part of soloing. For example, if the key is major, you can play a certain minor key that has the same notes, and vice versa.

G major = E minor
C major = A minor
D major = B minor
E major = C# minor
A major = F# minor
F major = D minor