fane speakers
MissYouAllDay
Posts: 939
There is currently an auction on a Hiwatt DC 40 with a ceramic FANE speaker. Would this increase the value of the amp alot in your opinion? Is a "ceramic FANE speaker" that big a deal?
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They are very nice warm speakers with smooth breakup. Fanes were used in all the early hiwatt cabinets and combos. Fairly essential to get the perfect Hiwatt sound. There are other good speakers but these were just the ones that Harry Joyce/Dave Reeves prefered.
It should increase the value slightly but not an insane amount.
How much is it going for?
Check it out its the only dc40 on there right now
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And if that hiwatt amp is an equal or better amp with a similar sound and features (in fact its features are better as far as versatility goes, has a 1/2 power switch) then I will invest in it.
see what I'm saying.
hey pac you going to boston?
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No, I'm not going, I can't really afford the airfare right now. I'm still saving for my guitar so I know the feeling. Pay off the computer this month, maybe get the guitar next month, hopefully climb out of the hole afterward.
The preamp is the primary difference as you know between the amps. The F-50 will do damn near anything you want it to distortion wise out of the box, but it's not as british or warm sounding as the Hiwatt. You'd have to create your lead tones the old fashioned way (driving the hell out of the preamp) But having a Hiwatt that almost no one else you'll ever run across has has got to be kind of cool, not to mention the inherent coolness that is Hiwatt.
It's a tough call between both of those amps, but it's a fun dilemma eh?
Can you explain it to me?
I guess I've never really understood overdriving the preamp. Fill me in
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the local shop here in STL has an F 50 used.
I will inquire on the price for you... they normally give a pretty good price on used items...
plus you would have no sales tax because you are outside of Missouri.
Well, there once was a time where amps had no master volumes. So to get the distorted sound they had to be cranked to the hilt.
Fortunately the DC 40 and the F 50 have master volumes.
The F 50 (and damn near all Mesa Boogie Amps) have preamps designed so that the gain is cascaded several times over. Creating this lovely rich distortion that's on almost every new band recording of the last 5 years or so.
Those of us who don't have arenas to play to have to play either with attenuators or with the master volume down lower and the gain to taste. In order to achive lovely rich distortion that we desire we use, gain boosting pedals (overdrive, fuzz, distortion, booster/sustainer etc) occasionally in succession in order to overdrive the preamp tubes causing that lovely crunch we all know and love. It should be noted however that the big full rich tone that comes out guitar amps cannot be fully appreciated at the lowest level, dialing down some of the fuzziness of the smaller pre-amp tubes (turning the gain a little lower) and turning up the master volume will help to provide the full rich tone tube amps are known for. I like to dial in a good clean tone then adjust my overdrive to give me a good crunch then I set my distortion pedal to taste depending on what I want to do.
The amps you are lusting for are quite loud, both have excellent clean tones. The tubes inside and the design of the amps determine the character. The F-50 is essentially a hot rod fender in the sense that it has a big full rich glassy clean with tons of headroom. The overdrive however is like taking an old fashioned muscle car strapping rocket boosters, superchargers and nitrous oxide along for the ride.
The Hiwatt, is a classic british amp making it warm and crisp with earlier breakup and a slightly warmer fat clean tone. The DC 40 has a bit more gain and is more modern I think than the other Bulldogs but it's still classic Hiwatt.
Either one will do you right and both really must be experienced to be appreciated.
J of Z ownes an F30 currently and I think he is pleased.
I'm essentially talking about the character of the amp. The mesa has more gain available already in it's preamp and relies mainly on the preamp tubes for it's distorted tone. It is a very powerful amp with lots of bass and treble on demand to cut through and a primarily scooped out mid section depending on how you set up the EQ.
The Hiwatt essentially is a bit lower in gain and relies more on it's power tubes to provide it's tone rather than the preamp tubes and it like all classic british amps is very warm in the midrange.
It depends on the player as to what they like better.
So pac I am still a little confused. You say amps used to have no volume control? So how did they control the volume? Just with the guitar volume? That cant be right...
What i don't understand is when you take either amp and turn the gain knob up does this actually overdrive the tubes? Or is it like a fake effect like on solid state practice amps.
The 2 channels offered in both amps are clean and over drive. IS the fundamental difference that the "overdrive" channel breaks up easier?
thanks for the help
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Ah, I am still to technical. I appologise.
The original Guitar amplifiers, had only Volume, and later Tone controls.
Well, Ol Pete Townsend and the like really liked the way the amps that Jim Marshall built sounded when they turned them up all the way.
Well, the problem is this is way to fucking loud for most places even the old early JTM 45's
Solution. One volume control (gain) and a Master Volume. to control the over all level.
The more gain, the more distorted the signal becomes.
raising the Master Volume increases or decreases the level.
Master Volume ( in theory it dosen't quite work perfectly) allows one to achieve the distorted sound with a much lower volume level.
You'll find out later that due to a few scientific principals, turning the master volume up to the nominal level and adjusting the gain to taste will probably give you the best tone and then we can talk about things like attenuators. don't even worry about that yet, that's another ballpark.
Guitar amps are built with preamp and power amp sections. Preamp sections take the signal from the guitar, turn it up or down with gain controls, color the sound with tone controls (bass, middle, treble, or just a basic "tone" knob), and also adds effects (onboard reverb, other effects [modeling amps, etc], and the effects loop). The signal is then transferred to a power amplifier that converts this instrument-level signal into a powerful signal that can drive a speaker(s).
Two-channel amps, effects pedals, and amps with Master Volume controls all rely on preamp distortion or overdrive, which distorts the instrument-level signal. This is a cheap, easy way to get overdrive or distortion at reasonable levels out of the speaker. Older amps with only one channel and no separate Master Volume had one single Volume or Gain control that affected both the preamp and power amp volumes, so if you wanted preamp distortion, you got lots of sound out of the speakers at the same time.
Separating the gain for the preamp and power amp sections (adding a Master Volume) was the easiest way to fix this problem. However, when people got these amps and tried to get the sound of a cranked single-channel non-master volume amp, they lost what is known as power-tube saturation. This occurs when the power tubes are overdriven. The signal is not necessarily distorted in the power tubes (the distortion/overdrive still happened in the preamp), but driving the power tubes makes the signal get compressed, adding a fatness and warmth to the sound that is very desirable. So, we can get overdrive at lower volumes, but if you want that fat tone, you still gotta crank it.
This led to the popularity of small tube amps, attenuators, and the decision to make solid-state amplifiers.
Small tube amps have much less power, so if you crank it into preamp distortion and power amp saturation, it's not quite as loud. Keep in mind that sound volume is logarithmic, not algebraic, so you need to divide the power by 10 to divide the volume in half. (A 5-watt amp is half as loud as a 50-watt amp.) This factor is also affected by the number of speakers, the type of cabinet (sealed, ported, or open-back), and any number of small electronic variables, but is still a general rule of thumb.
Attenuators act like dummy speakers, taking the speaker-level signal and sending some proportion of it into thin air (most often as either heat-dispersion or a dummy speaker coil). This allows you to have preamp distortion, power-amp saturation, and still maintain a reasonable volume out of the speaker. There are some discussions on how this affects the tone, life of the amp, etc., but that's the idea behind it.
Solid-state amps were the answer to this inconsistency in sound over the gain spectrum. Amps without tubes are much more consistent, not to mention reliable. This means that a solid state amp will sound pretty similar, whether it's on 2 or 10. They just lack the inherent sound qualities and characteristics that we love about tubes.
One last reflection on guitar distortion: speaker overdrive. Many older amps were built with speakers that could only handle 15-20 watts. These speakers, when driven with 30-50 watts apiece, began to distort. They were built strong enough that they could withstand this abuse (at least for a while) but they couldn't stay clean. Some people still prefer Celestion Greenbacks (25 watts) because they "break up easy" (distort). I personally prefer to get good preamp overdrive, good power amp saturation, and send them to a speaker rated for more power than I give it, so the speaker stays clean and tight but the amp signal is overdriven.
*pauses for breath*
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Well that is very interesting. The to continue my education here is my next question.
I currently only own solid state amps. maybe that is one reason I am so in the dark about this. Here is the panel layout of my marshall practice amp:
_CLEAN_____OVERDRIVE_
Volume____Gain___Volume
--( )
( )
( )
I have a select switch to switch from overdrive to clean. So i only know gain as a distortion level control not as a volume (although obviously db increase when i turn up the gain knob)
So in this diagram the volume (clean) is the "master volume" and I assume a combination of the other 2 knobs are the "preamp volume"? I have a feeling your guys explanation might not quite fit my amp cause its a solid state. But what confuses me is that there are essentially 3 volume knobs. You guys made it sound liek there should be 2 (and one may be labled overdrive or gain which would be the preamp one) but as you can see I have: Volume(clean) Volume(overdrive) and Gain (overdrive).
There is something fundamental missing in my understanding here but hopefully you can fill in the gap.
This is making an interesting day guys thanks for all the info!!!
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Gain and volume are virtually the exact same, but they have come to mean different things in schemantics. Gain is increasing (or decreasing) the amplitude of a sound wave. Volume is sound pressure of a sound wave. These two are related, and both basically refer to things being "louder" and "softer" sounds.
Gain has come to mean the signal strength, and Volume has come to refer to output sound (how loud out of the amp).
Overdrive/distortion occurs when you increase the strength of a signal past the capabilities of the medium. At this point, the extremes of the signal wave get 'clipped'; that is, the signal passes a point where the machine can't process that amplitude. This creates little squared-off wave corners that sound fuzzy and distorted. This is true of a guitar amp, a mixing board's mic preamps, an analog-to-digital converter, a digital mixer or recorder.
Tubes overdrive and distort in a way that is very musical, dealing with subsequent compression and harmonics. This makes for great tone. Solid-state amps don't usually sound very musical, and digital clipping is horrible. Distortion pedals use solid-state technology (unless specifically referred to as tube gear).
By increasing the Gain knob of your Distortion channel, you increase the signal strength to a point where it overdrives. You can then adjust the output volume of this distorted signal with the Distortion channel's Volume knob. In this way, your Distortion channel is a Master Volume arrangement, and your clean channel (meant to keep from distorting) is like a single-volume amp. You'll notice that if you turned the Volume knob of your Clean channel all the way up, it would start to distort, too, but it wouldn't sound as good (because it's not designed for that). You have two separate preamps (clean and distortion) sharing one power amp, so you essentially have controls for two separate amplifiers and switch between the two.
There are many tube amps out there that do the same thing. The Mesa-Boogie is a perfect example (and I have a two-channel Marshall that fits this bill). It has two channels, one voiced to stay clean and one voiced for heavy distortion. This is done mostly with different electronics (capacitors, resistors) and also by the tube chains. Usually, a clean channel has a single tube for preamp gain, and it's optomized so that it doesn't distort. The distortion channel, however, usually has two tubes. One is a clean boost (to get the signal strength up) and the other is a tube specifically meant to distort. Some of these tube amps even use the same kind of electronic chip that solid-state amps use to help get lots of distortion (although I think the Mesa Boogies have escaped that practice). But remember: this is just preamp distortion, you still need to push the power amp tubes to get that saturation.
Tube amps rated for 50 watts will sound louder than a solid-state amp rated for 50 watts. Amplifier technology is universally rated by watts before distortion. In other words, they pass a signal through the electronics, and at the point where total distortion exceeds a certain limit, that's the output wattage it's rated at. Tube amps can put out a hell of a lot more watts after distortion begins, so a 50 watt tube amp can probably put out a total of 80 watts maxed out (depending on the amp). A solid-state amp, however, is usually measured on the clean channel, which is designed to not distort at all. You can turn a clean solid-state amp up to 90% total consumption before it will start to distort, so their ratings are more reflective of their total possible output. A 50 watt solid-state amp might be able to put out 60 watts maxed out.
Impedance load from the speakers and the number of speakers will also affect percieved loudness. Two speakers receiving 50 total watts will sound louder (not twice as loud, but certainly louder) than a single speaker receiving 50 watts. A sealed enclosure will sound louder than a open-backed enclosure, a ported enclosure will sound the loudest (but suffer in tone) and a speaker that isn't mounted will sound the weakest. A horn-loaded speaker will be able to project the sound better, or focus the sound better, but a front-loaded speaker (i.e. most guitar amps) will sound better and fuller up close.
pity we aren't measuring the SPL's off of each. It'd be a lot easier to explain. Wish I had a meter lying around.
http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm
Did you guys know it has a half power switch? And it is a true half power switch(well I guess not true) that compensates for the fact that db and watts increase logarithmically. Pretty sweet sweet eh!
K so you have to gimme a yes or no here to make sure I undertstand the basics of the this huge amount of info.
Hiwatt DC 40, 2 channels
clean channel:
Master Volume- controls output volume and maxed can produce distortion in the power tubes.
Gain- increases signal and distortion in the preamp tubes and creates distortion easily but much less so on this clean channel.
Overdrive Channel:
Master Volume- same as above
Gain- same as above but breaks up way easier in the preamp tubes because its designed that way with multiple tubes and such.
So do I have it about right?
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However, no need to max the Master volume to get power tube overdrive. You can get power tube overdrive by adjusting the gain and the master volume to the nominal level. Usually that's about 5 or halfway on the volume knob.
Keep in mind because tube amps are rated at the nominal level or clipping point, they are providing you full power at about half way. above half with the preamp (gain) at say 3 and you are actually overdriving the power tubes causing the lovely saturation that we all know and love.
Trial and error though man. Just have fun with it and adjust to taste. The half power switch is a blessing though when you're playing clean I'll bet you prefer full power. You can use your big muff for distortion and it'll be damn near heaven.
The Mesa clean and bright are fantastic and I am sure I would have the same issues with just about every amp out there but the nano, or with an air brake. I refuse to spend $400 on an attenuator for a $799 amp. Going to a 15 watt isn't going to solve my problems either, so maybe I should move
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This is because the contour channel takes out much of the mids in the signal while boosting the higs and lows. This tone cuts very well and is good for solos but it's a more modern tone type preferred by these nu metal kids that like to scoop out the mids to get heavy lows and piercing treble. Tubescreamers provide a rather pronounced midrange (read fat/warm) boost a more vintage flavor.
J, check out ol Ted Weber's site. He can help you with your dilemma. (MASS)
http://www.webervst.com
The weber MASS is a great attenuator at a great price... check it out as Pac suggests.
Yep, you are right the inbetween channel is much better for crunch without total distortion.
I am a bit concerned about adding any sort of air brake. I hear different things from different people. The easiest solution is to just turn it down and suffer tone loss. I wonder if Mesa will void the warranty if an airbrake is used?
The weber mod looks interesting, but I will have to do more research.
I like what Bjorn did on his amp, but he has no plans to offer it as a mod or box. I am sure it wouldn't be cheap either.
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You connect it, via speaker cable inbetween the amp and the speaker. There should be a quarter inch jack that the speaker plugs in to. Nothing there should cause a void in the warranty. Besides Mesa Boogie are the Arlen Ness of Amp Mods in the guitar world.
You could always give them a call.
My Mini Mass cost 50 bucks.
You lose a bit of high end but it does allow you to run the amp as high as you want while harmlessly dumping that extra volume you don't need.
I of course prefer it without but the neighbors insist I use it.
I got ya, and for 50 bucks I guess you can't go wrong. The sound still comes from the cab, right? What would happen if the motor were to fail while plugged in? Laslty, how hard do you think I will be able to push it with the motor? I can't really go above 25% now without shaking windows.
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BJF powers my Pedal Board
I don't think you understand. It's a linear motor. (a speaker magnet and voice coil no speaker, the amp can't tell the difference between that and the actual speaker) You can push it as hard as you want. you adjust with the volume pot on top just make sure you order the proper Ohm version for your amp (I think it's 8 ohms)
The signal goes first into the MASS. The signal from the mass goes into your speaker and to your ears. Output volume is controlled by the pot on the box.
Amp---MiniMASS----Speaker.
Thanks again for the help
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BJF powers my Pedal Board
Well, it's a 30 watt amp. I'd get the 30 so it attenuates your amp properly. I ordered a custom 15 watt 16 Ohm for my little Orange. Works great I just wish the leeds were longer because my connections are way up inside the amp but you should be fine since yours are on the back.
you can sit the attenuator on top it's about perfect for that.
yeah, they only have a 25 listed, then it jumps to a 50. They will make a custom 30?
I still think the nano would have been the way to go if I had to do it again. Something to be said for simple.
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yeah could be. Just E-mail Ted and tell him what you want he can do it.
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Playing Les Pauls, Teles, Hubers, Gustavssons, Kolls through a Mad Professor amp with a Bob Burt Cab.
BJF powers my Pedal Board