Help with Tone

HeavyMetalNyge

I'm getting really frustrated trying to find a tone that I like. I'm wondering if anyone can help out. I'm really not looking to copy anyone's tone, just trying to find a sound that stands out to me. Obviously I love PJ tones, as well as STP, Candlebox, and AIC, just for reference.
I play through a Rivera Clubster 45. It's a 112 combo with an American clean and a British dirty channel, class A, el34's, etc. The distortion seems really bassy, or maybe loose, not sure how to describe it. Would getting an eq pedal help?
I'd also like to be able to get a little more gain out of it. I've tried using a Boss SD-1 in front of it, but I'm not all that excited about that tone either. Can anyone suggest another pedal or another way to crank this thing a little more.
Also, would playing this through a 412 with maybe some greenbacks help the sound at all?
Finally, I'm looking for a new delay and a new chorus pedal. I'm really sick of my visual sound liquid chorus/echo. How are the boss pedals for these effects?
I know finding "the" tone is like searching for the holy grail, but any insight would help.
Thanks

MLC2006

I know what you mean as I am always changing things around and trying to find the best sound. and believe me, I'm not tone master. I have a fender blues deluxe amp, I know there are a lot of people that don't like mids in the eq, but I personally think it sounds best for me to have the mid higher than the treble and the bass lower. this produces a good clean sound on the clean channel. on the drive channel, I have the volume turned damn near all the way up and the drive knob turned down to about 3 and then adjust the guitar's volume to whatever. for an Alice in Chains type sound, like a heavier darker sound, I use the the middle position of the les paul's pickups and I have the treble volume and tone higher than the rhythm volume and tone knobs. I play most of their songs on the amp's drive channel and use a Boss OS2. for PJ type songs, I will often use the bridge pickup or sometimes the middle position and use a Tubescreamer. sometimes I just use the amp's drive channel for verse/chorus and then use the TS9 to boost the volume and drive for the lead parts. the tubescreamer is much less metal sounding than the OS2. I used to have the same SD1 too at the same time that I had a blues driver, and I personally didn't like either of them as much as the OS2. though the SD1 was somewhat similar to the OS2, but the OS2 was a little more versatile to me. I used to have a Boss Chorus pedal and I thought it was not bad, but it's been so long ago I can't even remember what happened to it. sorry, I know this post probably helped you none at all

one more note: I know with a lot of distortion pedals, it's recommended to get your amp set on the distortion channel where it's just at the edge of distortion, but none too dirty, and then use the pedal on top of that for the best result. that's why use my amp's volume up loud and have the drive set around 3....it's on the edge of distortion, but not quit there yet. so then the pedal sounds good with it.

IDgotI

Greetings. There are four main ingredients for tone. Guitar, Pickups, Amp, Speakers. For the purposes of conversation I'd say each adds up to about 20% of your sound with the remaining 20% coming from things like the room you are in, Pedals, cables and probably half a dozen other things.

Would trying out a 4x12 with greenbacks change the tone? It would change 20% of your sound for sure. If you aren't feeling the tone right now, you might also consider checking out a few other amps. If you aren't in love with with your el34 amp try out a 6v6 or 6l6 amp at a music store and see what you think. There are also el84 tube amps. El34 and el84 are related the same way as the 6l6 and 6v6 tubes. One is the low power version of the other. They do / can sound different, but if you already aren't feeling the el34 you should try one of the "yang" 6 tubes to it's yin.

Preamps can also make a difference and something like a sansamp psa1 might be a good fit to shift your tone, although I find it's more like a distortion / incredibly powerful eq when used with an amp.

A new speaker and amp will give you a much more radical overall shift in the foundation of your tone. A preamp will certainly give you many many *more* shades than a new amp and speaker... but they will all be shades of the amp you play thru. So for quantity of new sounds a preamp is something to try. To completely and fundamentally reinvent your sound a different amp and speaker might be a better way to go.

As for guitar and pick ups, that's probably fairly straight forward. If you like humbuckers go with them, otherwise single coils. I'm guessing since you didn't mention your guitar you are already happy with it... which is good. Of course, if you are digging the feel of the instument, but still aren't happy with the tone, you can always consider swapping the pickups. Seymour Duncan and EMG are two famous pick up makers, and there are dozens of others. Again pick ups can make up 20% of your tone ... if you'll forgive my simplistic scale... so changing them could make a big difference.

Try playing other guitars thru the amp you have to see if any other instruments help get a tone you like thru your current setup. If you find another guitar with the same general pickup and body *type* that inspires you more than your current instrument, consider finding out what specific pick ups are in that guitar and try getting a set for yourself.

Hope that helps. Good tone is *Definately* worth the search. When you get sounds that "fit" you... it can take your playing, and your enjoyment of it, to a completely different level.

Good luck!

exhausted

IDgotI wrote:

Greetings. There are four main ingredients for tone. Guitar, Pickups, Amp, Speakers. For the purposes of conversation I'd say each adds up to about 20% of your sound with the remaining 20% coming from things like the room you are in, Pedals, cables and probably half a dozen other things.

five ingredients. don't forget the hands.

i agree with the less bass, more mids approach.

and, not that i'm a high gain type of person so take this with a grain of salt, i've never like amps with drive channels. they always seem to lose something and generally sound synthetic to me.

i've had much better luck turning up the clean channel and using pedals (with low gain, high volume output) to push it further when needed.

now of course, turning up isn't always easy which is why i use a power attenuator.

IDgotI

exhausted wrote:

five ingredients. don't forget the hands.

Exhausted is right. You should also consider investing in another pair of hands if you aren't already happy with the one's you have. Just as with trying other guitars thru your amp, see if you can get other players to play thru your current gear. If one of them sounds better with the same gear, then you might want to consider getting that player to let you have his or her hands.

Just as EMG and Seymour Duncan are good pick up makers, Sloan Kettering and Mount Sinai are great hospitals for transplant surgery.



(For the record, let me qualify what I wrote by saying appart from the talent and technique of the player, there are four main ingredients to tone.)

ianvomsaal

HeavyMetalNyge wrote:

I'm getting really frustrated trying to find a tone that I like. I'm wondering if anyone can help out. I'm really not looking to copy anyone's tone, just trying to find a sound that stands out to me. Obviously I love PJ tones, as well as STP, Candlebox, and AIC, just for reference.
I play through a Rivera Clubster 45. It's a 112 combo with an American clean and a British dirty channel, class A, el34's, etc. The distortion seems really bassy, or maybe loose, not sure how to describe it. Would getting an eq pedal help?
I'd also like to be able to get a little more gain out of it. I've tried using a Boss SD-1 in front of it, but I'm not all that excited about that tone either. Can anyone suggest another pedal or another way to crank this thing a little more.
Also, would playing this through a 412 with maybe some greenbacks help the sound at all?
Finally, I'm looking for a new delay and a new chorus pedal. I'm really sick of my visual sound liquid chorus/echo. How are the boss pedals for these effects?
I know finding "the" tone is like searching for the holy grail, but any insight would help.
Thanks

** 1st off - personally, I feel an EQ pedal is the last thing to try.
I would try using the amps EQ 1st.
Try turning down your BASS a little [4 or 5], and up your MIDS [6] and TREB [6]).
After all, the guitar is a MID frequency instrument).
Don't scoop it, just try to level it off for a smoother more articulate sound.
Riveras are great amps, and the EQ works kind of sequentially within itself (I have a Fandango, and like it a lot).

** Yes - more speakers add more air, thus change the sound of your amp.
You can go 4X12 - I prefer 4X10 because they're a little tighter sounding - but 1st try a 2X12 or 2X10 cab.
Open back and closed back also makes a difference.


** Try a Boss BD-2 (Blues Driver) and an Ibanez TS-9 (Tube Screamer)
Personally I prefer the Blues Driver because it's transparent and doesn't really change my guitars tone.
Many people say to get both of them (BD-2 & TS-9) Keeley Modified - which may do the trick for you.
Keeley seems to think the BD-2 Blues Driver is better than the TS9 (I agree).
His own website says:
- The BD-2 Phat Mod is Transparent Overdrive with Full Range sound
- For tone-purists, this is it!
- It's not simply a distortion pedal but rather a tone tool that adds to your guitar tone,
supplying really nice lows, crystal clear high frequency, great picking response and detail.
- For those wanting to set their amp on fire but not change the tone of their system, this is the pedal.
- The BD-2 is not the same as a TS9 pedal. It has a more FULL-RANGE sound and is much more TRANSPARENT.
- When cranked it offers a grittier/more-edgy tone.
***After our mods it’s a remarkable tube-amp enhancer/simulator!***
- The BD-2 is very DYNAMIC and works wonders with the volume control on your guitar.
- You can control all the drive you want by setting the BD-2 Gain high and using your volume control to instantly dial in the rest


** Lastly - I really like the Boss pedals (I love my Boss CE-5 Chorus Ensemble).
I've used the CE-5 Chorus Ensemble almost exclusively since 1996.
Every now and then I use an Electro Harm Chorus, but I usually stick with the Boss CE-5.
http://www.myspace.com/ianvomsaal
You can hear my CE-5 in action on my MySpace site above - 2nd track (Mine of Mike's of Miles')


Cheers . . .

- Ian C.T. vom Saal

HeavyMetalNyge

Wow, you guys are quick at responding. Wasn't expecting anything for a couple of days. That's why I like this forum.
Anyways, I think I'm going to look into this new hands idea. Could help with more than just guitar playing. Anyone ever heard of "the stranger"?
I've tried the "turn down the bass, turn up the mids idea". In my opinion, there has to be a certain amount of bass. I don't need much. This isn't a metal amp. Settings are Bass:4-5, Mids: 5, Treble: 7. I'm going to try turning down the preamp and cranking the volume like MFC suggested. I'll also try the Boss OS2, and blues driver as suggested. My guitars are OK. I have a nice American Deluxe Fat Strat. I also have kind of a crappy Squier Les Paul style that I replace all the hardware (tuners, wiring, volume pots, etc) and added a SD JB in the bridge and a SD Jazz in the neck. Not the best, but decent. I really want to get an ESP style Les Paul. Those are amazing. I've also been using a Carvin 212 open back cab that I like better than the 112 on the rivera. So I'm hoping that a 412 with 75 watt celestions would sound even better. Always been a fan of a british voiced amp thru celestions.
Thanks for the suggestions. They are much appreciated.

ianvomsaal

Yeah, as I said don't scoop your tone (bass/mids) - your not going for a metal tone.
You just have to tweak them a bit to get a full articulate sound.
I run my Rivera Fandango with the mids around 6 and the bass/treble around 5.

- Ian

Pearl Jam and toast

exhausted wrote:

five ingredients. don't forget the hands.

i agree with the less bass, more mids approach.

and, not that i'm a high gain type of person so take this with a grain of salt, i've never like amps with drive channels. they always seem to lose something and generally sound synthetic to me.

i've had much better luck turning up the clean channel and using pedals (with low gain, high volume output) to push it further when needed.

now of course, turning up isn't always easy which is why i use a power attenuator.

I have a solid-state Fender amp with a couple of drive channels on it.. I think they sound terrible. The main problem being that the sound gets WAY over compressed. Literally, no change in the volume no matter how hard I hit the strings. I gotta agree based on my experience that a lot of amp drive channels sound like shit. The only time I can bear to use my drive channel is when I've got it on 1 or 2 and bulking my sound with pedals.

Note: Since I bought a tubescreamer I haven't once used the drive channel on my amp. Tubescreamer for tone and subtlety, greedtone for crunch, fender blender for all around nastiness and bad-assery.