Odd time signatures, poly-rhythms and the like
Oh, Jimmy
Posts: 957
The drummer in my band is extremely influence by Danny Carey and honestly is one of the best drummers I have ever heard. He is a student of the instrument and I think he has a desire to pursue that musically. I want to let our drummers influence to shine through but, I have never written in odd time signatures, and was wondering if anyone knows of a place where I can get some recordings of different stuff. Or, maybe someone here can explain it to me better. Thanks in advance.
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If you go to 3/4 it's waltzlike. (Think Elderly woman in a small town) that's in 3/4
Peter Gabriel wrote in some different signatures: Solsbury Hill is in 7/4
If you listen to King Crimson stuff, it may make your head explode! Some of that stuff is amazingly complex.
I've seen them live with one drummer (Pat Masteletto) playing in 5, the other (Bill Bruford) in 7 or 9 beats, Robert Fripp and Adrian Belew in different signatures, Tony Levin in sync with one of the drummers. It's almost scary!
Frank Zappa did a lot of soloing in 5/4 , 7/4 , 9/4 time.
Try 5/4 first. Just get the rhythm by playing 1 2 3 4 5 over and over. Another way is think 1 2 1 2 3 over and over. For 7/4 think 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 until you get into the rhythm.
I used to play in some polyrhythmic bands and it's like anything else. It's hard at first, but then, suddenly, boink, you're thinking in 5.
It's actually fun to solo in 4/4 over another signature, because you to figure out when it repeats. If you're playing in 4/4 and the drummer is in 7/4 the whole thing repeats after 28 beats. (4 x 7)
Good luck!
Don't be mankind. ~Captain Beefheart
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Living in the past by Jethro Tull is in 5/4 for an example.
And one of the most favorite songs of all time:
The riff from "Money" by Pink Floyd.
Your first assignment is to listen and figure out what sig that's in!
Don't be mankind. ~Captain Beefheart
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Time sigs have never been my forte even though I've been playing guitar for 11 years.
Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
Every bar, every four bars I don't care as long as I know the sync points. But I'm not very technically astute when it comes to music, I depend on feel especially in singwriting.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
For the sake of simplicity, the top number in 7/4 time , for example, means how many beats here are per measure.
The 4 on the bottom means that a quarter note has one beat. For all most purposes , you won't be using that number much.
The Money riff repeats every 7 beats. If you listen to the song and count to 7 over and over, you get the feel. That's a good song to try it with because it's a very distinct 7 beat.
When you're playing rhythm to a drummer in something like 7/4 time, you have to get that feel.
If you're soloing, you should learn to solo to that 7/4, but , like surferdude says, there are a lot of places you can go from there. If you want something precise like Robert Fripp would play, you have to think in 7, or you can go the Frank Zappa route and let it rip with the 7 in the back of your mind, and try to find the end of the solo at the end.
If the drummer wants to play like that, have the drummer give you good cues like a hard beat every 7, or one two THREE four five six SEVEN, one two THREE four five six SEVEN, so that you can tell where you are in the mish mash of beats you'll be lost in!
Once it comes to you, it's a beautiful thing!
Don't be mankind. ~Captain Beefheart
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old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
As an example, if something needed to be played in 7/8 time, I first identify that it is a bar which has one less eighth note than 4/4 time. Then, instead of counting a regular 1 (+) 2 (+) 3 (+) 4 (+), the way I would count a bar of 7/8 time would be 1 (+) 2 (+) 3 (+) 4 / 1 (+) 2 (+) 3 (+) 4... just dropping the "and" off of the 4th beat and immediately going to the proceeding downbeat.
For something like 19/16 time (thanks Dream Theater!), it is the same as a 4/4 bar which has three extra sixteeth notes tacked on the end. So I would count it like 1 (+) 2 (+) 3 (+) 4 (+) 123/ 1 (+) 2 (+) 3 (+) 4 (+) 123... with the extra "1-2-3" counting as the added sixteenth notes.
For recordings, I'd recommend Dream Theater's Scenes From A Memory or Images and Words.
I miss you already, I miss you all day
Can someone explain that to me? If anyone finds the time, that is.
Other good bands do it, here's a list:
By Alice in Chains:
"Them Bones"- the verses are in 7/8
"Dam that River" and "Rain When I Die"- 6/4 I believe
Soundgarden has a lot:
Fell on Black Days is in 6/4, Spoonman is in 7/4, The Day I tried to live is in 15/4 or something along those lines
Radiohead has some interesting ones:
Sail to the Moon has alternating ones: the intro goes between 7/4, 6/4, 5/4, and 2/4, among others. Some of their other stuff has some different times, try that out.
Most of the songs on Lateralus by Tool are in odd signatures, there are also some songs by Queens of the Stone Age and Primus that are in weird times.
Also, listen to Yes, Zappa, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, Rush, and Led Zeppelin for some crazy time signature stuff.
http://www.freakkitchen.com
and
http://www.bumblefoot.com
both bands do alot of 11/16 and fun stuff like that=)
In a nutshell, the bottom number is pretty much what you'd tap your foot to. If you find that the song repeatedly goes back to the start of its repetitiveness every time you tap your feet 4 times, generally the song is in x/4 timing. That's a very, VERY crude way of looking at it. The top number is not quite as easy, and I have a hard time figuring it out a lot of times. Listen to "Money", the bassline in particular, and you'll see how it's in 7/4. Count along with it 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 repeat.
Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"