Help with Ledbetter Solo

StickmanJam

So in my lessons, we've started with Solos. SO i went off on my own to tackle the Ledbetter solo after Eddies "make me cry".

I have the whole thing pretty much down except one spot at about the 2:43 mark into Ledbetter. where the tab reads

---

11*13r11p9---

It lists the *=Pre-bend

I excluded everything else because I have it down, so, what's a pre-bend? I can seem to get this part down.

gobrowns19

A Pre-Bend is where you have the note bent, in this case, to the pitch of the 13th fret but being on the 11th fret, then hitting the string and letting it slowly go back to it's note..........did any of that make sense?

StickmanJam

gobrowns19 wrote:

A Pre-Bend is where you have the note bent, in this case, to the pitch of the 13th fret but being on the 11th fret, then hitting the string and letting it slowly go back to it's note..........did any of that make sense?

so...I hit the the note on the 11th fret first as a single note? Or just automatically go into the bend at that part.

I understand the theory of bending a particular note up to that pitch

gobrowns19

You bend the string, but you don't strike it with your pic or finger, you bend it, then hit it, then let it go so the tone starts higher than goes lower, like you were pushing down on a whammy bar.

StickmanJam

gobrowns19 wrote:

You bend the string, but you don't strike it with your pic or finger, you bend it, then hit it, then let it go so the tone starts higher than goes lower, like you were pushing down on a whammy bar.

ok, I understand now. thanks for that.

still having trouble with this part though, its so fast that I can't figure out the rhythm, just gotta keep listening I guess.

gobrowns19

No problem, I wish I could help you more on the part, but it's really just practice. I've learned solos note for note before, but I've found more enjoyment out of taking just parts of those solos and doing my own thing in between, but hey, there's no right and no wrong. good luck

Pearl Jam and toast

gobrowns19 wrote:

No problem, I wish I could help you more on the part, but it's really just practice. I've learned solos note for note before, but I've found more enjoyment out of taking just parts of those solos and doing my own thing in between, but hey, there's no right and no wrong. good luck

Hell yeah :cool:

Little moves like pre-bends become second nature to you once you start getting the hang of it. No worries

Pappas

yep the guy above explained it perfectly
1 - bend the note already
2 - strike it
3 - release the bend

that part of the tab is hard, you dont have to be spot on with it coz its so fast no-one would realise its off, just play around that part of the scale real fast for a few notes and you will be fine

lucylespian

Pappas wrote:

yep the guy above explained it perfectly
1 - bend the note already
2 - strike it
3 - release the bend

that part of the tab is hard, you dont have to be spot on with it coz its so fast no-one would realise its off, just play around that part of the scale real fast for a few notes and you will be fine

On the other hand, you could take the approach that to learn to play precisely and accutrately is a good thing.

I've always thought that not learing things properly is a cop-put and will limit you in teh long run much more than putting in the hard yards.

You can bet that Mike learnt his Hendrix solos perfectly, and that Hendrix learnt his Howlin' Wolf and Littel Richard backing parts PERFECTLY, no excuses !!!

StickmanJam

lucylespian wrote:

On the other hand, you could take the approach that to learn to play precisely and accutrately is a good thing.

I've always thought that not learing things properly is a cop-put and will limit you in teh long run much more than putting in the hard yards.

You can bet that Mike learnt his Hendrix solos perfectly, and that Hendrix learnt his Howlin' Wolf and Littel Richard backing parts PERFECTLY, no excuses !!!

Yea, I'm working on it. I've only had formal lessons for about 3 1/2 months now, so I'm still not real fast yet, but I'm getting there. The rest of the solo sounds real good though, but still workin on getting that part to sound right.

Pearl Jam and toast

lucylespian wrote:

On the other hand, you could take the approach that to learn to play precisely and accutrately is a good thing.

I've always thought that not learing things properly is a cop-put and will limit you in teh long run much more than putting in the hard yards.

You can bet that Mike learnt his Hendrix solos perfectly, and that Hendrix learnt his Howlin' Wolf and Littel Richard backing parts PERFECTLY, no excuses !!!

It's not about not learning songs properly, it's about not worrying over every single precise note in a fucking improv solo! IMPROV! SOUL~!

lucylespian

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

It's not about not learning songs properly, it's about not worrying over every single precise note in a fucking improv solo! IMPROV! SOUL~!

Yes, it is about learning songs and the instrument properly. It was an improv for Hendrix, not for Stickman. For Stickman, it is a piece to learn, no different from a classical piece for a violin or piano student, just more contemporary and meaningful to him.

Ya can't improv meanigfully until you learn to put your fingers exactly where you want them, when you want them there.

All the master improvisors spent time learning other people's stuff perfectly. I'm not trying to suck the fun out of stuff by any means. After all, the guitar is the instrument of anarchy, the only one where you can play without any formal training, or knowledge of music theory, or any sense of pitch.
BUT, sooner or later, to be really good, you do have to apply yourself really closely to the task. I'm doing that now at 43 after playing since I was 16, never had the resources to do it properly before, and never had a teacher who was prepared to teach me to play stuff correctly, always just wanted me to "improv"over the scales.
I really wish I had done it the other way.
It's like stomping your own grapes though, you probably aren't going to get fine wine, more like grotty grape juice.
When someone asks, "how do I play xyz correctly ?", the only good answer is the one that helps them achieve that.
Telling people to just do their own thing just sucks !!
Congrats, STickman for having the jiz to do the hard yards, instead of just having fun.
But, have fun too !!
And it is fun to learn a piece correctly, I refuse to believe that it sucks the life or fun out of it, and when someone says, what can you play, they recognise it and respect that.

StickmanJam

lucylespian wrote:

Yes, it is about learning songs and the instrument properly. It was an improv for Hendrix, not for Stickman. For Stickman, it is a piece to learn, no different from a classical piece for a violin or piano student, just more contemporary and meaningful to him.

Ya can't improv meanigfully until you learn to put your fingers exactly where you want them, when you want them there.

All the master improvisors spent time learning other people's stuff perfectly. I'm not trying to suck the fun out of stuff by any means. After all, the guitar is the instrument of anarchy, the only one where you can play without any formal training, or knowledge of music theory, or any sense of pitch.
BUT, sooner or later, to be really good, you do have to apply yourself really closely to the task. I'm doing that now at 43 after playing since I was 16, never had the resources to do it properly before, and never had a teacher who was prepared to teach me to play stuff correctly, always just wanted me to "improv"over the scales.
I really wish I had done it the other way.
It's like stomping your own grapes though, you probably aren't going to get fine wine, more like grotty grape juice.
When someone asks, "how do I play xyz correctly ?", the only good answer is the one that helps them achieve that.
Telling people to just do their own thing just sucks !!
Congrats, STickman for having the jiz to do the hard yards, instead of just having fun.
But, have fun too !!
And it is fun to learn a piece correctly, I refuse to believe that it sucks the life or fun out of it, and when someone says, what can you play, they recognise it and respect that.

good stuff. I've been running through that part for the past week and I'm getting fairly good at it. Had another lesson today, and we've been running through the Alive solo note for note (I did Ledbetter on my own)

I'm having a lot of fun either way. thanks for the time

Novawind

Funny, I just started trying to tackle the ledbetter solo myself today. I opened the file in Quicktime, then played it at half-speed so I could make sure I get all the notes correct. Maybe tomorrow I'll try playing it at full speed.

lucylespian

Yeah, I have one of those Tascam CD trainers. It is jsut really easy to pick out a loop, and slow it down to what you need, then speed it up in increments of about 8% at a time.

I've been looking for a teacher who can help me with PJ solos, but no luck yet. I did have one guy, but he lives 2 hrs away, so I haven't been for a while. I am gonna try one other guy who lives closer, but if he does not work out, I will start making the schlep to the one good guy I have found.
I can work stuff out muyself, but it takes ten times longer than if I have a teacher to help me.

Novawind

I can actually feel myself getting better as I work with this solo. Was that the case for anyone else (at least beginners?).

lucylespian

Novawind wrote:

I can actually feel myself getting better as I work with this solo. Was that the case for anyone else (at least beginners?).

No surprises there, that's the point of practise, you get better.
John Petrucci says......

"practise does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect"...............

so, whether you want to be a shredder or a "feel" player, perfect practice lets you go wherever you want to go.

Pearl Jam and toast

lucylespian wrote:

Yes, it is about learning songs and the instrument properly. It was an improv for Hendrix, not for Stickman. For Stickman, it is a piece to learn, no different from a classical piece for a violin or piano student, just more contemporary and meaningful to him.

Ya can't improv meanigfully until you learn to put your fingers exactly where you want them, when you want them there.

All the master improvisors spent time learning other people's stuff perfectly. I'm not trying to suck the fun out of stuff by any means. After all, the guitar is the instrument of anarchy, the only one where you can play without any formal training, or knowledge of music theory, or any sense of pitch.
BUT, sooner or later, to be really good, you do have to apply yourself really closely to the task. I'm doing that now at 43 after playing since I was 16, never had the resources to do it properly before, and never had a teacher who was prepared to teach me to play stuff correctly, always just wanted me to "improv"over the scales.
I really wish I had done it the other way.
It's like stomping your own grapes though, you probably aren't going to get fine wine, more like grotty grape juice.
When someone asks, "how do I play xyz correctly ?", the only good answer is the one that helps them achieve that.
Telling people to just do their own thing just sucks !!
Congrats, STickman for having the jiz to do the hard yards, instead of just having fun.
But, have fun too !!
And it is fun to learn a piece correctly, I refuse to believe that it sucks the life or fun out of it, and when someone says, what can you play, they recognise it and respect that.

I agree but also disagree with you.. Once you've got a good idea of what to do with lead work improv is 9/10 times the way to go - esp. with a straight improv solo like Ledbetter. X.Y.Z. doesn't have a solo in it really, so of course you'd want to learn it properly . There's a lot to being a really good technical player but also a lot to abandoning that at a certain point.

Example:

Satriani (or however you spell it) - GREAT guitar player but jesus christ is his music soulless. I'm sure he's had countless lessons and practice time doing the perfection thing.

Neil Young - One of the best, most unique guitar players out there. Certainly not one for note-for-note playing which makes every solo he plays alive and unpredictable. This is a guy who can play over the same chord progression for 15 minutes and not bore me. He's said himself that his policy is to learn as much as you need then go out on your own and he's a perfect example of the benefits of doing so.

But neither approach is going to work with everyone, so just do whichever is best for you.

Edit: What I agree with you on is that note-for-note playing is a terrific way to become a great improv player, esp. if you're just starting. First solos I ever played were Lake Of Fire (nirvana/meatpuppets unplugged) and Daughter note for note and it was a great launching pad.

StickmanJam

Novawind wrote:

I can actually feel myself getting better as I work with this solo. Was that the case for anyone else (at least beginners?).

Yea definitely. The solo incorporates all four fingers, bends and pre-bends, so it's been very helpful to me.

It also sounds great, so it makes learning it so much better

lucylespian

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

I agree but also disagree with you.. Once you've got a good idea of what to do with lead work improv is 9/10 times the way to go - esp. with a straight improv solo like Ledbetter. X.Y.Z. doesn't have a solo in it really, so of course you'd want to learn it properly . There's a lot to being a really good technical player but also a lot to abandoning that at a certain point.

Example:

Satriani (or however you spell it) - GREAT guitar player but jesus christ is his music soulless. I'm sure he's had countless lessons and practice time doing the perfection thing.

Neil Young - One of the best, most unique guitar players out there. Certainly not one for note-for-note playing which makes every solo he plays alive and unpredictable. This is a guy who can play over the same chord progression for 15 minutes and not bore me. He's said himself that his policy is to learn as much as you need then go out on your own and he's a perfect example of the benefits of doing so.

But neither approach is going to work with everyone, so just do whichever is best for you.

Edit: What I agree with you on is that note-for-note playing is a terrific way to become a great improv player, esp. if you're just starting. First solos I ever played were Lake Of Fire (nirvana/meatpuppets unplugged) and Daughter note for note and it was a great launching pad.

Sure, at a CERTAIN POINT, but the original poster is certainly nowhere that point. Nor am I, though I am getting close.
I'm not advocating technicality over "style" or "soul" or "feel" by any means, but you have to have technique.
Everyone always comes back to Neil Young, but look back thrugh the guys catalogue and it's easy to hear that he has chops to burn, and he can improv like crazy now for several reasons.
The first and main one is that the guy has been a professional musician for several decades, and if he doesn't know his way around the fretboard by now, he must be seriously brain-damaged.
Further, he is a naturally talented musician, in a way that most of us aren't. It's not fair or sensible to expect the average guy to have the same musical sensibilities as one of the handful of gods we worship, esp the ones with perfect pitch !!!!!
Those gods of course, tend to have a bag of lick they fall back on, which are learnt patterns, not divine inspirations. Some palyers are worse than others for falling back there all teh tiem, Clapton comes to mind.

And ironically, STickman sems to be enjoying the note-for-note approach. I'm sure at some stage he'll feel inclined to add something of his own to it, and when he does, he'll be able to. Expecting him to come up with something now is just crazy !!
Funny thing about solos, they always seem to be going out of fashion, then coming back in again. I don't think they ever really go too far, just that there isn't always someone there with something fresh to say, cos that's really hard. So, if you can't solo, ya just say, "solos aren't cool".

Pappas

i find that the best approach is to do a little of both, improv and learning note for note

learning licks note for note helps you in your improv beacuse you mix and match them, copy parts of them that you have learnt. thats what ive found after learning and trying to copy many mike solos, ive learnt some of the licks etc he likes to play, and incorporate them into my own improv playing and it has improved heaps

ive been playing about 1.5 years never had a lesson in my life but can accuraltely play solos fmo i am mine, ledbedder, glorified gun, etc etc etc. some ard hard though, ive always thought alive solo is hard, firstly cause some parts of it are real fast and also cause its so damn long. evenflow is another one, not cause its hard but cause its so fast.

Pearl Jam and toast

lucylespian wrote:

Sure, at a CERTAIN POINT, but the original poster is certainly nowhere that point. Nor am I, though I am getting close.
I'm not advocating technicality over "style" or "soul" or "feel" by any means, but you have to have technique.
Everyone always comes back to Neil Young, but look back thrugh the guys catalogue and it's easy to hear that he has chops to burn, and he can improv like crazy now for several reasons.
The first and main one is that the guy has been a professional musician for several decades, and if he doesn't know his way around the fretboard by now, he must be seriously brain-damaged.
Further, he is a naturally talented musician, in a way that most of us aren't. It's not fair or sensible to expect the average guy to have the same musical sensibilities as one of the handful of gods we worship, esp the ones with perfect pitch !!!!!
Those gods of course, tend to have a bag of lick they fall back on, which are learnt patterns, not divine inspirations. Some palyers are worse than others for falling back there all teh tiem, Clapton comes to mind.

And ironically, STickman sems to be enjoying the note-for-note approach. I'm sure at some stage he'll feel inclined to add something of his own to it, and when he does, he'll be able to. Expecting him to come up with something now is just crazy !!
Funny thing about solos, they always seem to be going out of fashion, then coming back in again. I don't think they ever really go too far, just that there isn't always someone there with something fresh to say, cos that's really hard. So, if you can't solo, ya just say, "solos aren't cool".

lols. A bunch of arrogant punk rockers who can't play lead worth a shit say that maybe? Those people always make me laugh.

I agree with what you said too, I think we're saying essentially the same thing just in different words.