F2F is OPEN

KJ228171

EH14457 said:

 I honestly wouldn't be shocked if this isn't even on their radar. Heck, the official company line is still that F2F tickets are non-transferrable even though we know that's not the case. I've started to lean more towards this just being lack of awareness for TM, and a clear lack of ROI/incentive to do anything about it even if they are aware.

They are well aware of the work around for non transferable tickets but you are right that they have no incentive until the hackers that reverse engineered the mobile barcode compromise something more sensitive. Right know I would guess they are waiting to see how the lawsuit AXS has against the hackers (https://www.404media.co/scalpers-are-working-with-hackers-to-liberate-non-transferable-tickets-from-ticketmasters-ecosystem ). Ticketmaster joining that lawsuit or filing their own would look like the them consolidation power which would be a bad...well worse...look in light of the monopoly power they already have. Best to let a smaller player be the front. In the mean time fans get screwed because F2F, instead of keeping priced down actually causes them to increase on the secondary market for in demand acts.Prices should normalize closer to show time but for people wanting to button up plans in advance it sucks.

One of my many issues is enforcement. I don't think I have ever heard of TM cancelling F2F resales...ever. They just put out a boiler plate statement and then look the other way. Maybe they have done it but not at any scale. The UK got it's first taste of dynamic pricing last fall with Oasis and it did not go well. TM claims they will cancel tens of thousands of tickets on the secondary market but have yet to that. They are counting on people to either forget or be resigned to their faith against a massive corporation. I'm about there. I'll check randomly for Raleigh N1 in the hopes of getting GA or close seats but except that I will take what I can get in the weeks or days before the show. If an obstinate SOB like myself is at that point, a normal person would have been their weeks ago.

Nothing stops them from segregated the various fan clubs for F2F. They don't even have do it for the general sale tickets. They just won't and as they take over running more fan clubs there are less and less people advocating for the fans. It's a "be happy with what you get and if you get nothing well sucks for you." And if this was how it's always been fine but for us that's not the case.

EH14457

They're definitely aware of the barcode hack. Are they aware of the approach that 3rd parties are using to snag F2F tickets quickly? Is it bots? Is it API access? Is it something else? TM's anti-bot strategy clearly paints with a broad brush (as many of us have been caught up in it), but F2F has a handful of other wrinkles... Unique IDs generated for ticket sales... are those discoverable? And unlike traditional sales, there's no such thing as a cart reservation, so checkout must be completed as quickly as possible. There are just a few differences... and with Ticketmaster (initially) thinking that these tickets were non-transferrable and therefore less desirable targets for scalpers, it may not have even been on their radar to try and prevent malicious activity on these event pages. I'm just saying that it's going to be really difficult to prove that TM is complicit in anything that's happening with these tickets. Ignorance is as likely an explanation as malice.

Re: enforcement by way of cancellations, it's good in theory... but all it would take is some chaos agent(s) listing a bunch of tickets they don't own and getting fans' tickets canceled. TM is clearly within their rights to cancel any tickets they want, but can you imagine if hundreds of users had their tickets canceled because some disgruntled broker just started listing tickets they don't even have on 3rd party marketplaces? As stupid as it sounds, it's not possible for TM to prove that ticket owners are responsible for listings on 3rd party sites... and that poses a problem.

Lerxst1992

given2flym said:

Chrrie said:

jsilsby said:

All that proves is botting and smpwallet/bar code spoofing is finding F2F very profitable. If TM isn’t going to figure out how to stop bar code spoofing, then it’s just time to blow up F2F as it currently exists and figure something else out.

I agree. To me it’s also a smoking gun that APIs are actually being used to purchase. Pitt being a sold out show that you can’t sit in and refresh between 1/2 tickets, but an API that has a 5 rps rate limit lol would have no problem there.  

Right, it is absolutely this. I’m in no way saying Ticketmaster is buying and reselling tickets themselves. That’s too on the nose, even for them. 

But the major issue, I think, is that Ticketmaster is clearly selling backend access for buying tickets to companies/brokers who are then able to easily beat real customers and circumvent fan to fan. While it’s not a direct kick back, they are benefiting from these licenses and sales. All while Ticketmaster and those select artists champion fan to fan face value ticketing which becomes less and less real. 

This also clearly didn’t exist in 2022, so it’s all fairly new. Sure looks like a way for Ticketmaster to monetize a portion of the market they had to keep their hands off of. In addition of the added benefit of making their own premium tickets look more scarce and more desirable. 

why can’t ten c tix appear in an exclusive fan club site on TM for resale for the first few days? 

But no, we are not allowed to ask, nor question our leaders.

KJ228171

EH14457 said:

Re: enforcement by way of cancellations, it's good in theory... but all it would take is some chaos agent(s) listing a bunch of tickets they don't own and getting fans' tickets canceled. TM is clearly within their rights to cancel any tickets they want, but can you imagine if hundreds of users had their tickets canceled because some disgruntled broker just started listing tickets they don't even have on 3rd party marketplaces? As stupid as it sounds, it's not possible for TM to prove that ticket owners are responsible for listings on 3rd party sites... and that poses a problem.

Well the work around that is have a 2FA when people scan tickets. Again just for fan club tickets not the general sale. I'll concede the general sale and premium to the universe but 10C tickets should be for 10C members. It won't matter if the barcode is reverse engineered because the second factor can't be.

EH14457

KJ228171 said:

EH14457 said:

Re: enforcement by way of cancellations, it's good in theory... but all it would take is some chaos agent(s) listing a bunch of tickets they don't own and getting fans' tickets canceled. TM is clearly within their rights to cancel any tickets they want, but can you imagine if hundreds of users had their tickets canceled because some disgruntled broker just started listing tickets they don't even have on 3rd party marketplaces? As stupid as it sounds, it's not possible for TM to prove that ticket owners are responsible for listings on 3rd party sites... and that poses a problem.

Well the work around that is have a 2FA when people scan tickets. Again just for fan club tickets not the general sale. I'll concede the general sale and premium to the universe but 10C tickets should be for 10C members. It won't matter if the barcode is reverse engineered because the second factor can't be.

I actually really like that idea. Logistical issues to overcome at ticket kiosks (imagine MFA delays for network, signal, etc…). But it’s a good idea. Of course if resellers are buying right out of the gate from TM they can just automate fwding of the MFA. But it would at least cut them out as a middleman. 

EH14457

Lerxst1992 said:

why can’t ten c tix appear in an exclusive fan club site on TM for resale for the first few days? 

But no, we are not allowed to ask, nor question our leaders.

Scalpers are 100% inside 10c as well. This might cut out some resellers but it wouldn’t solve the problem. 

ally12

How would the 2FA work if you are doing trades with other members? Or even selling your tickets if your plans change?

julieooliern

EH14457 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

why can’t ten c tix appear in an exclusive fan club site on TM for resale for the first few days? 

But no, we are not allowed to ask, nor question our leaders.

Scalpers are 100% inside 10c as well. This might cut out some resellers but it wouldn’t solve the problem. 

This hurts my altruistic sensibilities. 😑

KJ228171

EH14457 said:

KJ228171 said:

EH14457 said:

Re: enforcement by way of cancellations, it's good in theory... but all it would take is some chaos agent(s) listing a bunch of tickets they don't own and getting fans' tickets canceled. TM is clearly within their rights to cancel any tickets they want, but can you imagine if hundreds of users had their tickets canceled because some disgruntled broker just started listing tickets they don't even have on 3rd party marketplaces? As stupid as it sounds, it's not possible for TM to prove that ticket owners are responsible for listings on 3rd party sites... and that poses a problem.

Well the work around that is have a 2FA when people scan tickets. Again just for fan club tickets not the general sale. I'll concede the general sale and premium to the universe but 10C tickets should be for 10C members. It won't matter if the barcode is reverse engineered because the second factor can't be.

I actually really like that idea. Logistical issues to overcome at ticket kiosks (imagine MFA delays for network, signal, etc…). But it’s a good idea. Of course if resellers are buying right out of the gate from TM they can just automate fwding of the MFA. But it would at least cut them out as a middleman. 

Agreed it will add friction and make the logistics a little harder but it would be for what a quarter maybe a third of the crowd. I don't know the percentage 10C gets per venue. It would probably be quicker that when Zack Bryant was checking the ticket buyer IDs a couple of years ago. That was an AXS tour not Ticketmaster.

ally12 said:

How would the 2FA work if you are doing trades with other members? Or even selling your tickets if your plans change?

If it's all in the 10C family it wouldn't be an issue. It would if the tickets went outside of that which this system is trying to prevent anyway. It's all a hypocritical pipe dream. Realistically I doubt the band will be touring in their seventies so that given us roughly a decade. After this run that's three maybe fours tours? I can't seen them changing it now. I hope I'm wrong on both fronts.

Zod

I think 2FA would cause too many problems that the venue doesn't want to deal with.

I'd prefer a nuclear approach.  Go back to 2018 and limit resales of tickets all together.   As a 10c'er its sad how many tickets get discarded back onto fan2fan.   It pushes everyone further back.  2018 you couldn't only transfer 1 ticket.  You couldn't ditch pairs.  It makes you really think. Am I going to use those tickets I put in for in the lottery?

Either way fan2fan is now an epic fail.  It's a way for scalper/bots to scrape face value tickets and make money

driventofly39

On the upside - F2F is an excellent way to build credit, earn rewards points, and get cashback.

danlee1095

Would be great if they sprinkled in a few Fan Club only shows again each tour at smaller venues. No tickets go to bots and place is packed with almost all die hards. Makes for a better show (i.e., crowd), likely a better user experience in trying to get tickets, and a better barter / trading market for the community in the months leading up to the show (which can be fun / rewarding). This whole thread would be people helping each other out and feeling good, versus just massive frustration with TM and attempts to help friends / fans being thwarted. Hard Rock could have been this but I get that it's a lot more work for 10 Club (who I still obviously really love / appreciate!), so clearly easier to outsource it from a resource perspective.  At the end of the day, happy to be here, grateful for what we still have and 4/24 can't come soon enough!

runstaples

Which show was it recently that they released more 10c tickets and gave us a code to unlock? Was that 2 years ago?

given2flym

runstaples said:

Which show was it recently that they released more 10c tickets and gave us a code to unlock? Was that 2 years ago?

I believe Vancouver was one of those? Maybe?

And one of the MSG years I think released a very small amount on a second lottery. 

SHZA

Was the first leg last year. Most or all shows 

ally12

danlee1095 said:

Would be great if they sprinkled in a few Fan Club only shows again each tour at smaller venues. No tickets go to bots and place is packed with almost all die hards. Makes for a better show (i.e., crowd), likely a better user experience in trying to get tickets, and a better barter / trading market for the community in the months leading up to the show (which can be fun / rewarding). This whole thread would be people helping each other out and feeling good, versus just massive frustration with TM and attempts to help friends / fans being thwarted. Hard Rock could have been this but I get that it's a lot more work for 10 Club (who I still obviously really love / appreciate!), so clearly easier to outsource it from a resource perspective.  At the end of the day, happy to be here, grateful for what we still have and 4/24 can't come soon enough!

It wouldn’t solve the issue, their fan club is massive and not everyone will get a ticket. Members will get more angrier and the entitlement will show even more than it does now 

Chrrie

runstaples said:

Which show was it recently that they released more 10c tickets and gave us a code to unlock? Was that 2 years ago?

Missoula had this too because of an issue with the way the lottery was run 

Get_Right

ally12 said:

danlee1095 said:

Would be great if they sprinkled in a few Fan Club only shows again each tour at smaller venues. No tickets go to bots and place is packed with almost all die hards. Makes for a better show (i.e., crowd), likely a better user experience in trying to get tickets, and a better barter / trading market for the community in the months leading up to the show (which can be fun / rewarding). This whole thread would be people helping each other out and feeling good, versus just massive frustration with TM and attempts to help friends / fans being thwarted. Hard Rock could have been this but I get that it's a lot more work for 10 Club (who I still obviously really love / appreciate!), so clearly easier to outsource it from a resource perspective.  At the end of the day, happy to be here, grateful for what we still have and 4/24 can't come soon enough!

It wouldn’t solve the issue, their fan club is massive and not everyone will get a ticket. Members will get more angrier and the entitlement will show even more than it does now 

That is not the issue and I do not think fans would be angry at missing out on an intimate show. We all know how hard those tickets were to get. TM would make less money on a 10C only show, so they likely would not allow it to happen without a trade off. The band could make it happen, but have not done so in a long time. When TM is in charge of administering the tickets, the consumer gets screwed. It would not surprise me if TM is gobbling up any tickets posted on F2F before a real fan has a chance.

KJ228171

runstaples said:

Which show was it recently that they released more 10c tickets and gave us a code to unlock? Was that 2 years ago?

Back in 2022 they added extra GA tickets to every show except Louisville after the production was finished. Not sure how likely it will be for this leg because they have the 2024 tour under their belt so they know the step up. Crossing fingers.

craigraether

KJ228171 said:

runstaples said:

Which show was it recently that they released more 10c tickets and gave us a code to unlock? Was that 2 years ago?

Back in 2022 they added extra GA tickets to every show except Louisville after the production was finished. Not sure how likely it will be for this leg because they have the 2024 tour under their belt so they know the step up. Crossing fingers.

that was because certain Covid restrictions were lifted. Something like 600 tickets were sold in the lottery and added 150-200 after covid was starting to diminish.