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recommend me a good PA system

neenerbeanneenerbean Posts: 205
edited December 2003 in Musicians and Gearheads
for a 6-piece band (3 guitars) and two vocals.

I am new at this, so bear with me...it's for our practice space.

Money isn't a HUGE object, but I'd like to get the best deal.

This may get used for two, even three bands down the road (all my projects).

Also, any advice for a smaller PA setup for my house? Just so if we wanted to jam at my house I've got a few speakers and whatnot?

Thanks!
AMES
twitter >> powpowkitty
Post edited by Unknown User on

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    Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    You're probably going to want around a 16 or 24 channel mixer so you'll have plenty of room for mic'ing the drums. Allen and Heath seems to be the one for most folks on the board depending on your budget. I'd go with a seperate mixer and amp (amps) for the band. I like lots of speaker brands, Yamaha makes good ones for the money. I'd say you need 2 15"s with horns and 2 subs. JBL M series sound good. EV's are nice as well, The best are EAW's in my own (and Pearl Jam's) opinion. Slap a Compressor and a Sonic Maximiser on there too and you've got a great PA for a large band. Get good vocal mics (supercardioid) your favorite brand here for your vocals and Shure SM 57's or some similar brand for micing the guitar amps.

    http://www.carvin.com has some excellent PA packages for your home and band use as well. You can see how they put packages toegther then try http://www.musiciansfriend.com http://www.samash.com and several other websites you can find for the best deal.

    A good music gear related site with reviews is http://www.harmony-central.com

    good luck neener.

    McCready is God would be the one to PM about this stuff as he is an engineer.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
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    neenerbeanneenerbean Posts: 205
    Originally posted by Pacomc79
    McCready is God would be the one to PM about this stuff as he is an engineer.
    my fiance is an engineer too :)http://www.bombshelterchicago.com

    but wanted to get some pj fans opinions as well - thanks so much!!

    =ames=
    twitter >> powpowkitty
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    Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    Oh, cool so he definately knows how to make it sound good after you get it.

    Have fun choosing.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
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    mccreadyisgodmccreadyisgod Bumfuq, MT Posts: 6,395
    Originally posted by neenerbean
    my fiance is an engineer too :)

    Yeah, but I'm a LIVE SOUND engineer...

    This is a pretty wide-open question... Do all your guitars have amps, or do you have acoustics that need to go straight into the PA? For a practice space, you probably don't need mics on the drum set, bass amp, or guitar amps. So, any acoustics without amps and vocals are all you need. You probably want two regular PA speakers and two floor monitors for the vocalists. That means you would probably want a 6- or 8-channel powered PA head with some serious wattage. Someone in here had a Yamaha system that looked pretty good, and he was fairly pleased with. Wish I remembered who...

    Anyways, here's a good arrangement:

    6-channel mixer:
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=031123210231150131025216764481/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/630098/

    OR 8-channel mixer:
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=031123210231150131025216764481/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/630105/

    Regular PA Speakers (x2):
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=031123210231150131025216764481/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/608889/

    Floor Monitors (x2):
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=031123210231150131025216764481/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/600842/

    Give the singers the floor wedges, and get the rest of the band with the two PA speakers. I prefer the 12" midranges over the 15", they have much better clarity. Especially for vocals. This would probably be good enough for a small club show PA, too, but wouldn't be the best for a large room (600+ people). But for practices in a regular-sized room, it will be plenty loud and plenty clear even for death metal.

    If you want a PA for live shows and whatnot, you would need something along the lines of what Paco recommended (he tends to get excited at spending other people's money on PA gear) and I could recommend items for such a purchase if you were interested. I would agree with Paco on one thing... supercardiod mics for vocals. The Shure Beta 58A is a great mic for anyone. If you have the money, Audix OM5's and OM7's are great, too. But you probably have mics already. If you use a supercardiod mic, place the floor monitors at 30 degrees off axis to one side or the other for the best feedback rejection. You'll probably need a bit of EQ, too.

    If you have any other questions, ask away. More than happy to help.
    ...and if you don't like it, you can suck on an egg.
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    mccreadyisgodmccreadyisgod Bumfuq, MT Posts: 6,395
    Oh, for your house... I'd just watch for a used cheapie Peavey PA. If you want new gear, you could get a pair of these:
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=031123210231150131025216764481/g=home/search/detail/base_pid/600202/

    and a little mixer like this:
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=031123210231150131025216764481/g=live/s=mixers/search/detail/base_pid/631238/

    Generally, I hate Behringer, but for the price that's a great little mixer. You can use the Eons without a mixer, too, just plug a mic into the back. You'll need special cords to hook the mixer to the speakers, just a male 1/4" TRS to male XLR.

    These little Fenders are okay for small stuff:
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=031123210231150131025216764481/g=live/s=mixers/search/detail/base_pid/480634/

    Here's a grab-bag of small stuff:
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=031123210231150131025216764481/g=live/s=mixers/search/so=asc/sc=price/c=5335/so=asc/sc=price
    ...and if you don't like it, you can suck on an egg.
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    neenerbeanneenerbean Posts: 205
    Originally posted by mccreadyisgod
    If you have any other questions, ask away. More than happy to help.
    thanks so much dude!! I printed this thread and I'll use it when considering my options.

    :) amy
    twitter >> powpowkitty
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    Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    Originally posted by mccreadyisgod
    Yeah, but I'm a LIVE SOUND engineer...

    This is a pretty wide-open question... Do all your guitars have amps, or do you have acoustics that need to go straight into the PA? For a practice space, you probably don't need mics on the drum set, bass amp, or guitar amps. So, any acoustics without amps and vocals are all you need. You probably want two regular PA speakers and two floor monitors for the vocalists. That means you would probably want a 6- or 8-channel powered PA head with some serious wattage. Someone in here had a Yamaha system that looked pretty good, and he was fairly pleased with. Wish I remembered who...

    Anyways, here's a good arrangement:

    6-channel mixer:
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=031123210231150131025216764481/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/630098/

    OR 8-channel mixer:
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=031123210231150131025216764481/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/630105/

    Regular PA Speakers (x2):
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=031123210231150131025216764481/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/608889/

    Floor Monitors (x2):
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=031123210231150131025216764481/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/600842/

    Give the singers the floor wedges, and get the rest of the band with the two PA speakers. I prefer the 12" midranges over the 15", they have much better clarity. Especially for vocals. This would probably be good enough for a small club show PA, too, but wouldn't be the best for a large room (600+ people). But for practices in a regular-sized room, it will be plenty loud and plenty clear even for death metal.

    If you want a PA for live shows and whatnot, you would need something along the lines of what Paco recommended (he tends to get excited at spending other people's money on PA gear) and I could recommend items for such a purchase if you were interested. I would agree with Paco on one thing... supercardiod mics for vocals. The Shure Beta 58A is a great mic for anyone. If you have the money, Audix OM5's and OM7's are great, too. But you probably have mics already. If you use a supercardiod mic, place the floor monitors at 30 degrees off axis to one side or the other for the best feedback rejection. You'll probably need a bit of EQ, too.

    If you have any other questions, ask away. More than happy to help.

    Thus the reason I give you the nod. I prefer 12's too For the clarity but you need subs for the bottom end when you run 12''s. I was probably just over thinking. Anyway you are what I wish I was a live sound engineer.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
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    mccreadyisgodmccreadyisgod Bumfuq, MT Posts: 6,395
    Well, if you're playing a concert in a bar or club or theater, sure, you would mic some drums, some amps, and get some beefy mains and subs. But for a practice space? Who in their right mind would have subs in a practice space? Watch SVT, they don't have subs in the PJ space. Come on down, Paco... we miss you back here on earth...
    ...and if you don't like it, you can suck on an egg.
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    Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    Originally posted by mccreadyisgod
    Well, if you're playing a concert in a bar or club or theater, sure, you would mic some drums, some amps, and get some beefy mains and subs. But for a practice space? Who in their right mind would have subs in a practice space? Watch SVT, they don't have subs in the PJ space. Come on down, Paco... we miss you back here on earth...


    well she said price was not too much of an option, so I figured I'd throw EAW out there for shits and giggles. Sure my car costs less than one array but you know..... :)
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
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    mccreadyisgodmccreadyisgod Bumfuq, MT Posts: 6,395
    Originally posted by Pacomc79
    well she said price was not too much of an option, so I figured I'd throw EAW out there for shits and giggles. Sure my car costs less than one array but you know..... :)

    Your car likely costs less than two boxes. The EAW 850's go for $3000 apiece.

    PJ DOES have some nice Rat boxes in their practice space, though...
    ...and if you don't like it, you can suck on an egg.
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    low_lightlow_light Posts: 251
    i pretty much have the setup Mike M recommended. the 12's sound great and the yamaha pa is fucking great. its all on sale for like 100 bucks less than normal now so go for it if you have th cash, Neener.

    -low
    www.myspace.com/eotoband
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    mccreadyisgodmccreadyisgod Bumfuq, MT Posts: 6,395
    That's right, it was low_light...

    Duh.
    ...and if you don't like it, you can suck on an egg.
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    Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    Originally posted by mccreadyisgod
    Your car likely costs less than two boxes. The EAW 850's go for $3000 apiece.

    PJ DOES have some nice Rat boxes in their practice space, though...

    well you know we can't all be rock stars.

    I like that rig that Low bought too.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
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    mccreadyisgodmccreadyisgod Bumfuq, MT Posts: 6,395
    I use a little Peavey powered PA head, with two cabinets and a single floor wedge for practices. It's a great combo for a power trio (main vox and backup vox). That Yamaha is five times the PA that I have... but with six people, it's a great system, and you could use it easily for smaller gigs.

    I love EAW speakers, and their monitors are amazing as well. Too bad we can't all be rock stars...

    At least I get to use a pretty nice JBL system at work. ;)
    ...and if you don't like it, you can suck on an egg.
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    Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    yeah. I wish I had some money. We used an old Peavy PA at school. Those PA speakers were tough as nails and loud too but I doubt they sounded very good. I'd love to have a tiny 200 watt PA with a little monitor and 2 12's with a horn. I could get by with much smaller as it's really just me, but when I play with a band or a larger group I'll want more. O well. Thats going to have to wait untill I find a bigger house. Meaning I have no Idea when. I'm still trying to get a delay pedal
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
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    mccreadyisgodmccreadyisgod Bumfuq, MT Posts: 6,395
    Get a DD-6 and get over yourself already...

    Those little Kustom PA's are supposed to be pretty good... should look at one of those.
    ...and if you don't like it, you can suck on an egg.
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    69charger69charger Posts: 1,045
    I am in a three piece band and we use 10 of 16 channels on a regular basis.

    Vocal 1, Vocal 2, Guitar, Bass, Kick, Floor, Tom 1, Tom 2, Snare/HiHat, Cymbals.

    I do recommend Behringer mixers. It's awesome for the price and deadly quiet. The effects can be noisy, but effects will probably always introduce some unwanted noise. We've used the 2442FX for over a year without a single problem.

    As far as signal processing, we just run the vocals through a Beringer compressor and then the entire mix goes to the EQ then a Sonic Maximizer. Remember K.I.S.S. :-)

    We all have 12" monitors with horns.

    Our mains are two Yamaha's each with a 15" and a horn. The subs are Powered Mackie SWA1501's. I can't speak highly enough of these little subs. They'll cost ya a bit but they are worth far more than what you will pay for them.

    For practice we just mic the vocals and the kick and put it through the Mackie sub and the two Yamaha cabs. As a bass player I find it far easier to practice with the kick going through the sub. I can just "feel" instead of having to listen.

    Hope this has helped in some way...
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    mccreadyisgodmccreadyisgod Bumfuq, MT Posts: 6,395
    Originally posted by 69charger
    The subs are Powered Mackie SWA1501's. I can't speak highly enough of these little subs. They'll cost ya a bit but they are worth far more than what you will pay for them.

    For practice we just mic the vocals and the kick and put it through the Mackie sub and the two Yamaha cabs. As a bass player I find it far easier to practice with the kick going through the sub. I can just "feel" instead of having to listen.


    I love Mackie's active speakers. They are truly phenomenal, reliable, and they sound so good. I use the SRM450 mid-hi speakers all the time where I work, and they do everything and do it well. They aren't good as vocal monitors (feedback) but they're the best for about anything else. They do cost some money, but we've gotten our use times ten out of them, and never had a problem with a single one. I've heard the subs (we actually use a pair of JBL active 15" subs, they suck) and they are great. They work especially well with the SRM450's (that's how they were designed). The sound quality is unbelievable.

    I can definitely appreciate having a sub in the practice space for a kick drum... my old band used to mic the kick for practices, too. No sub, but it still helped keep the locomotive going, eh?

    Glad to hear you've had good luck with the Behringer boards. I've never cared for them, but I've been spoiled by twice-the-price Mackies (and their phenomenal preamps) and other higher-end gear.

    For live gigs, you want to have as many channels as possible... but then you need quite a bit of PA to reproduce it without getting muddy. Remember, every thing you add to the mix takes the overall clarity and reproduction down a notch...

    For a standard guitar-bass-drums trio with 2 vocals, I would use the following for a concert set-up:

    1. Kick drum - Beta 52
    2. Snare - SM57
    3. Hi Hats - SM81
    4. Rack Tom 1 - D2
    5. Rack Tom 2 - D2
    6. Floor Tom - Beta 58
    7. Overhead-ride side - SM81
    8. Overhead-hats side - SM81
    9. Bass DI - Countryman
    10. Bass Mic - Beta 52
    11. Guitar mic 1 - Beta 52
    12. Guitar mic 2 - SM57
    13. Vox 1 - Beta 58
    14. Vox 2 - Beta 58

    Gate/comp on the Kick Drum. Comp on the Bass DI. Comp on both vocals. A touch of vocal reverb. A mess of snare reverb.

    Of course, that's something like $2200 in just microphones... you could go without the hi-hat mic, one of the overheads, one of the Bass inputs, the Beta 52 on the guitar... that cuts $800-900...

    OR...

    1. Kick Drum - RE20
    2. Kick Drum - Beta 91
    3. Snare Top - SM57
    4. Snare Bottom - KM184
    5. Hi Hats - KM184
    6. Ride - SM81
    7. Tom 1 - Beta 98
    8. Tom 2 - Beta 98
    9. Floor Tom - MD421
    10. Overhead Left - 414 ULS
    11. Overhead Right - 414 ULS
    12. Bass DI - Avalon Tube
    13. Bass Mic - M88
    14. Guitar Mic 1 - MD421
    15. Guitar Mic 2 - KSM32
    16. Vox 1 - OM7
    17. Vox 2 - OM7

    You could use an SM86, M88, or KMS105 microphone for the vocals... depending on the voice...

    SO LONG AS I DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR IT!!!
    ...and if you don't like it, you can suck on an egg.
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    alobaralobar Posts: 310
    I'm also in a band who's actively looking for a PA, so I thought I'd give this a little bump to page 1.
    "I wanna believe in the mercy of the world again."

    WAR + MAGIC BEANS = PEACE
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    mccreadyisgodmccreadyisgod Bumfuq, MT Posts: 6,395
    I just realized that the pimped-out mic collection I posted in my last post there has a street value of just under $7,000. It leads me to believe that Pearl Jam's mic value on the stage for a show is around $10,000. Makes you think, eh?
    ...and if you don't like it, you can suck on an egg.
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    Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    Originally posted by mccreadyisgod
    I just realized that the pimped-out mic collection I posted in my last post there has a street value of just under $7,000. It leads me to believe that Pearl Jam's mic value on the stage for a show is around $10,000. Makes you think, eh?

    think about the inherent value on stage of all the equipment at the largest arena they play. Not to mention the wealth of technical knowledge of their crew.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
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    mccreadyisgodmccreadyisgod Bumfuq, MT Posts: 6,395
    Originally posted by Pacomc79
    think about the inherent value on stage of all the equipment at the largest arena they play. Not to mention the wealth of technical knowledge of their crew.

    The EAW line array they used for the last tour was top-notch. I don't know if there's a better line array in existance today.
    ...and if you don't like it, you can suck on an egg.
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