The fallacy of great managers/coaches

Wobbie

The “genius” Bellichek not looking great with Mac Jones. “First ballot HOF’ers” Torre and LaRussa? Well, they had some good players and a bunch of steroid guys. Chip Kelly? Yeah, right.

none of these guys really matter. you can definitely fuck things up but when it comes down to it, it’s all about the players.

Tell me what coach/manager has really made a difference.

(other than maybe Bruce Bochy)

CROJAM95

Larry Brown comes to mind 
that was a scrappy Pistons team, but they had no superstars 

taking 76ers to finals

Other teams as well, college too

jwhjr17

Reg Dunlop

Johnny Abruzzo

Vince Lombardi drilled his players on the power sweep and nobody could stop it. Nowadays there would be people trying to ban it.

Reluctantly agree with you on Bochy - he managed every playoff game like it was Game 7, which is what you need to do. (is he still a manager?)

MayDay10

I think McDermott/Beane have made all the difference in Buffalo for the Bills.  

Josh Allen makes a huge difference, but even before him, the team missed the playoffs for 17 straight seasons and made it in their first season with Tyrod Taylor.  They completely re-vamped the culture of the organization and team on the field.  

IMO NHL coaches are bunk.  They are disposable.  GMs aren't that important either, IMO it is an exercise in getting the most assets and maximizing them, and not getting into foolish contracts.

MLB, I think the general managers/presidents are very important.  Lots of moving pieces there and building a successful team has become a lot more technical and numbers-based.  The fact that Cleveland can just keep churning out pitchers and trading them just before they fall off a cliff is surgical.  What Tampa does is impressive.  Houston has wisely built a juggernaut.  
Managers in baseball in mostly a joke.  They are bobbleheads who just refer to a binder of numbers and field questions after games and say nothing.  I'm going to miss Francona.  He was a throwback to managers who actually manage.



Belichick, I think when the Patriots were humming, with Ernie Adams had such an attention to detail and had the perfect QB for it as well.  They were able to blur the lines of what was legal and not (or what they would get caught/in trouble for) and got any edge they can.  It did help that they were in a division with the most unsophisticated teams in the era (Bills, Jets, Dolphins).  At this point, the game has passed Belichick by a bit.  All 32 teams cook with gas now, and Belichick tries to play 1956 football without Frank Gifford.  He is older and seems to be stuck in that elderly mentality of only having people around he is comfortable with (and who wont complain or threaten his job or methods).  When it is all said and done, he will be on the Mt Rushmore of football coaches.

If we are going back in time, Paul Brown and George Halas were revolutionaries, as was Lombardi.  IMO Belichick is/was in the same vein (and I hate the Patriots).

Earl Weaver for baseball was pretty incredible.  I think LaRussa is a bit overrated although he was decades at the forefront of a lot of the odds-based thinking and over-managing we see today.   I always loved terry Collins, an underrated high-class guy who always seems to get the most out of his teams wherever he goes.  Terry Francona, same thing, but not so far off the radar.

NHL, it is tough to argue with Scotty Bowman, although his teams were always stacked.   I think Barry Trotz is a very solid head coach who has gotten a lot out of not-great paper rosters.  

NBA, I dont know enough about it, but I think I saw Pat Riley has been involved in like 25% of the NBA finals in history of the league or something like that.  

Merkin Baller

I disagree. The first example that comes to mind is SB 49... Malcolm Butler may have been the player who intercepted Russell Wilson to clinch the game, but it was coaching & preparation that put him in the position to do that. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/malcolm-butler-super-bowl-interception-weeks-in-the-making/

I agree that great players can make up for some bad or mediocre coaching, but SO many things need to go right to be successful in pro sports, I don't think you can chock it up to athletic talent alone. 

Merkin Baller

MayDay10 said:

 I'm going to miss Francona.  He was a throwback to managers who actually manage.

Agreed. 

Poncier

jwhjr17 said:

Reg Dunlop

The man was a genius.
The way he could get inside someone's head..."Hanrahan..."

jwhjr17

Poncier said:

jwhjr17 said:

Reg Dunlop

The man was a genius.
The way he could get inside someone's head..."Hanrahan..."

tempo_n_groove

Disagree.  You need a clubhouse organizer to manage the team.  If it's a shitty atmosphere then you need to change that culture and the coaches, good ones, can do that.

I'll say Calipari, Dean Smith,  Coach K, Jackson and Riley are the best when it comes to basketball.

HesCalledDyer

Johnny Abruzzo said:

Vince Lombardi drilled his players on the power sweep and nobody could stop it. Nowadays there would be people trying to ban it.

Reluctantly agree with you on Bochy - he managed every playoff game like it was Game 7, which is what you need to do. (is he still a manager?)

He took a couple years off but was hired this season to manage the Rangers.

Johnny Abruzzo

HesCalledDyer said:

Johnny Abruzzo said:

Vince Lombardi drilled his players on the power sweep and nobody could stop it. Nowadays there would be people trying to ban it.

Reluctantly agree with you on Bochy - he managed every playoff game like it was Game 7, which is what you need to do. (is he still a manager?)

He took a couple years off but was hired this season to manage the Rangers.

Oh yeah - that very early April 3-game series that I banished from my memory. Somebody beat that team please.

Wobbie

good points, mayday….

BUT TLR, is completely overrated, IMO. where is he without steroid guys?

F Me In The Brain

TLR = lord of overrated