The limits of blues: a controversial topic.

brianlux

Let me say at the outset, this is not meant to usurp our other fine blues thread.  That thread nicely covers the subject of the blues on a more broad level.  This one is more specific as a sub-topic.

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At the end of his mostly excellent book Jimi Hendrix and the Making of Are You Experienced, writer Sean Egan makes the following highly controversial statement, one for which he has been harshly criticized in various place:

"The 12-bar Red House" succeeds artistically precisely because it makes a mockery of the blues' limitations.  Blues is boring.  This opinion may outrage many , but a musical genre that relies for differentiation on new lyrics over an interchangeable musical format (many of which lyrics are permutations  of the same stock phrases) is so limited in its scope as to be farcical."

As a fan of the blues, I can totally understand why this statement would bring outrage from many music fans.  But let's delve into this a bit further.
First of all, I think at least some of Egan's premise is difficult to argue with- there are huge numbers of blues songs that follow a rather limited format and rely on many of the same oft relied on phrases.  But if we look further, there are plenty of good reasons to scrub off some of Egan's semi-legitimate complaints. 
One reason I would suggest is the limited exposure a lot of music fans have to the blues.  Some of the greatest blues artists that ever lived are not widely known.  Let me give a few examples:

J. B. Lenoir.  Lenoir wrote many blues songs that covered tropics that ranged far from the "my baby left me" cliches of the genre.  He wrote about oppression, war, and other social issues.  He also had a style of playing guitar that is quite amazing.

Johnny Shines:  Wow, Shines!  Here was a blues musician who had a vocal style that at times can send shivers up your spine.  He also had a distinctive style of guitar playing.  There was little about Shines that I would call generic.  One of my favorites.

Robert Lockwood: Another fine singer and a particularly impressive guitarist. 

Tommy Johnson:  An amazing singer/guitarist whose contributions to Mississippi blues is not nearly recognized widely enough.  Another distinctive voice in the world of the blues.

The blues is a guitar and vocal based music and this is one of the things that Egan fails to address in his book (a work I will defend as quite worthy despite all this- great stuff overall).  Though the format of blues songs is somewhat limited by nature, the number of distinctive guitarist and vocalists in this genre is huge.  I named just a few, the but list is long.

And none of this is meant to disparage the well know blues artists- Muddy Water, Lightnin' Hopkins, John Lee Hooker, Robert Johnson, Howlin' Wolf, et al.  Their legacy stands on their  own merits. 

If you tend to agree with Egan's premise, I would encourage you to explore the blues more deeply.  I suspect if Egan had done this, perhaps he would have dialed back his comments a bit further. 
And if you are a blues aficionado, tell us about some of your favorites and why you think they are unique- especially lesser known artists- but perhaps stick closer to fundamental blues artists.  Jimi played great blues as did, at times,The Rolling Stones, ZZ Top, Led Zeppelin, Eric Clapton, Rory Gallagher, Canned Heat, etc., but those are blues-rock bands and artists, not really more pure blues performers.

mickeyrat

so what sub-genre is he speaking of?

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

so what sub-genre is he speaking of?

He was talking about blues in general.   He seems to have what I would say is narrow view point of blues.  It's hard to argue against the notion that most of what we generally refer to as blues are 12-bar blues with an AAB pattern consisting of two repeating 4-bar patterns followed by one differing 4-bar pattern, and that many of these songs have little too distinguish them from a lot of others in blues music.  You know, like,

"My baby done left me and I'm so blue

Yeah my baby done left and I'm so blue

But now it's OK 'cause I got you"

But the problem I see with that is that there are a lot of blues songs that are not this generic (for example, going back to what I said about people like J. B. Lenoir who wrote very topical non-personal relationship type blues songs), and it also fails to address the rich variety of instrumental and vocal styles that give a lot of blues artists a very distinct flavor.  I'm guessing Egan finds the blues boring because he hasn't (or at least hadn't) explored the genre very deeply.

On the other hand... lol... I would agree that its hard to argue against the idea that a lot of blues songs and some blues musicians sound rather generic.  But the same could be said about other forms of music, including almost all forms of rock music.  And I admit, at one time I made the same generalization about rap and hip hop-- until I listened a little more widely.  Still, not enough to grow enamored with that music, but at least enough to recognize that it has a more broad scope and variety than I had believed earlier on.  In other words, I would not describe hip hop as "it all sounds the same".

mickeyrat

tell ya, dude can fuck right off. NOTHING boring in these two examples. first studio then live for each....

https://youtu.be/HEuKbE4MXPE

https://youtu.be/i5sqJNFFwqc

https://youtu.be/sqgZmorU-G8

https://youtu.be/3c_8VUL5jks

now the second pair could arguably be called jazz straight up , but jazz itself is blues.....

tempo_n_groove

mickeyrat said:

tell ya, dude can fuck right off. NOTHING boring in these two examples. first studio then live for each....

https://youtu.be/HEuKbE4MXPE

https://youtu.be/i5sqJNFFwqc

https://youtu.be/sqgZmorU-G8

https://youtu.be/3c_8VUL5jks

now the second pair could arguably be called jazz straight up , but jazz itself is blues.....

I'll say that SRV was "bluesy" and not Blues.  I get what the guy is saying.  It's like Zydeco music.  It has a certain format.  Older Irish/Gaelic music, same thing, it has a format and there may be some differences but it's the same song structure and chords.

If you take blues at it's core and don't look at the blues styles then yes, it can be boring but it morphed into other things and he misses that.

I always think of the song "Hey Bo Diddly" and how many times that riff was redone and where Bo stole that from in early Blues, lol.

Cropduster-80

I like blues. Not my favourite but I like it.

to me blues is a sub genre of folk music so it’s hard to like one but not the other.  

Country music is far more repetitive to me. Lost my girlfriend, something about my truck, etc. that’s the vast majority of country themes (lyrically).  Musically I think jazz shows you there is a lot you can do with a repetitive basic musical pattern.  Blues may be a bit more simple but I don’t think a basic musical structure  is necessarily limiting 

brianlux

SRV certainly was a tremendous guitarist.  I think he is generally regarded as blues rock, but blues was certainly a big part of his music.

Cropduster-80 said:

I like blues. Not my favourite but I like it.

to me blues is a sub genre of folk music so it’s hard to like one but not the other.  

Country music is far more repetitive to me. Lost my girlfriend, something about my truck, etc. that’s the vast majority of country themes (lyrically).  Musically I think jazz shows you there is a lot you can do with a repetitive basic musical pattern.  Blues may be a bit more simple but I don’t think a basic musical structure  is necessarily limiting 

Interesting point.  There are musicians who sit right on the edge between blues and country music.  Josh White comes to mind. 

Hot weather sleep deprivation edit:  Josh White was on the border of folk and blues, not country and blues.   Egads.  More coffee, please!

Also, you brought up jazz.  Blues in jazz is something that has always befuddled me.  When I hear a number by, say, Coltrane or Ellington that is referred to as blues, it still sounds like jazz to me.  I'm not sure I could point out a blues number in jazz- rarely anyway.  There are some pieces that the World Saxophone Quartet have done that sound like blues, but they sometimes did renditions of well known tunes that are obviously blues and r&b.  But not being able to pick out a blues number by someone like Coltrane always feels like a flaw in my interest in music.  Oh well, gotta live with one's flaws, right?

dankind

Well, I woke up this mornin'
And this thread done done me wrong.
Well, I woke up this mornin'
And this thread done done me wrong.

And if you see this thread a-trending
Well, you hear me when I moan.

mickeyrat

brianlux said:

SRV certainly was a tremendous guitarist.  I think he is generally regarded as blues rock, but blues was certainly a big part of his music.

Cropduster-80 said:

I like blues. Not my favourite but I like it.

to me blues is a sub genre of folk music so it’s hard to like one but not the other.  

Country music is far more repetitive to me. Lost my girlfriend, something about my truck, etc. that’s the vast majority of country themes (lyrically).  Musically I think jazz shows you there is a lot you can do with a repetitive basic musical pattern.  Blues may be a bit more simple but I don’t think a basic musical structure  is necessarily limiting 

Interesting point.  There are musicians who sit right on the edge between blues and country music.  Josh White comes to mind. 

Hot weather sleep deprivation edit:  Josh White was on the border of folk and blues, not country and blues.   Egads.  More coffee, please!

Also, you brought up jazz.  Blues in jazz is something that has always befuddled me.  When I hear a number by, say, Coltrane or Ellington that is referred to as blues, it still sounds like jazz to me.  I'm not sure I could point out a blues number in jazz- rarely anyway.  There are some pieces that the World Saxophone Quartet have done that sound like blues, but they sometimes did renditions of well known tunes that are obviously blues and r&b.  But not being able to pick out a blues number by someone like Coltrane always feels like a flaw in my interest in music.  Oh well, gotta live with one's flaws, right?

that would be because you appear to be framing jazz as by the same narrow definition as that writer.

heres a different take , at least in regards to an evolution in blues and jazz.

https://cincyblues.org/education/difference-between-blues-and-jazz/

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

brianlux said:

SRV certainly was a tremendous guitarist.  I think he is generally regarded as blues rock, but blues was certainly a big part of his music.

Cropduster-80 said:

I like blues. Not my favourite but I like it.

to me blues is a sub genre of folk music so it’s hard to like one but not the other.  

Country music is far more repetitive to me. Lost my girlfriend, something about my truck, etc. that’s the vast majority of country themes (lyrically).  Musically I think jazz shows you there is a lot you can do with a repetitive basic musical pattern.  Blues may be a bit more simple but I don’t think a basic musical structure  is necessarily limiting 

Interesting point.  There are musicians who sit right on the edge between blues and country music.  Josh White comes to mind. 

Hot weather sleep deprivation edit:  Josh White was on the border of folk and blues, not country and blues.   Egads.  More coffee, please!

Also, you brought up jazz.  Blues in jazz is something that has always befuddled me.  When I hear a number by, say, Coltrane or Ellington that is referred to as blues, it still sounds like jazz to me.  I'm not sure I could point out a blues number in jazz- rarely anyway.  There are some pieces that the World Saxophone Quartet have done that sound like blues, but they sometimes did renditions of well known tunes that are obviously blues and r&b.  But not being able to pick out a blues number by someone like Coltrane always feels like a flaw in my interest in music.  Oh well, gotta live with one's flaws, right?

that would be because you appear to be framing jazz as by the same narrow definition as that writer.

heres a different take , at least in regards to an evolution in blues and jazz.

https://cincyblues.org/education/difference-between-blues-and-jazz/

Not sure why you would say that, M.  I have a good sized jazz collection that includes dixieland, big band/ swing, bebop, hard bop, modal, free jazz, avante guard, Latin jazz, and fusion and if you play an example of any of them I can tell you what they are.  And I took a class at S.F. State taught by alto sax player John Handy that covered the history of jazz.  But I still can't tell you if a certain piece by Coltrane or Oliver Nelson or whomever is a blues piece or not.  Like I said, I'm flawed!

mickeyrat

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

brianlux said:

SRV certainly was a tremendous guitarist.  I think he is generally regarded as blues rock, but blues was certainly a big part of his music.

Cropduster-80 said:

I like blues. Not my favourite but I like it.

to me blues is a sub genre of folk music so it’s hard to like one but not the other.  

Country music is far more repetitive to me. Lost my girlfriend, something about my truck, etc. that’s the vast majority of country themes (lyrically).  Musically I think jazz shows you there is a lot you can do with a repetitive basic musical pattern.  Blues may be a bit more simple but I don’t think a basic musical structure  is necessarily limiting 

Interesting point.  There are musicians who sit right on the edge between blues and country music.  Josh White comes to mind. 

Hot weather sleep deprivation edit:  Josh White was on the border of folk and blues, not country and blues.   Egads.  More coffee, please!

Also, you brought up jazz.  Blues in jazz is something that has always befuddled me.  When I hear a number by, say, Coltrane or Ellington that is referred to as blues, it still sounds like jazz to me.  I'm not sure I could point out a blues number in jazz- rarely anyway.  There are some pieces that the World Saxophone Quartet have done that sound like blues, but they sometimes did renditions of well known tunes that are obviously blues and r&b.  But not being able to pick out a blues number by someone like Coltrane always feels like a flaw in my interest in music.  Oh well, gotta live with one's flaws, right?

that would be because you appear to be framing jazz as by the same narrow definition as that writer.

heres a different take , at least in regards to an evolution in blues and jazz.

https://cincyblues.org/education/difference-between-blues-and-jazz/

Not sure why you would say that, M.  I have a good sized jazz collection that includes dixieland, big band/ swing, bebop, hard bop, modal, free jazz, avante guard, Latin jazz, and fusion and if you play an example of any of them I can tell you what they are.  And I took a class at S.F. State taught by alto sax player John Handy that covered the history of jazz.  But I still can't tell you if a certain piece by Coltrane or Oliver Nelson or whomever is a blues piece or not.  Like I said, I'm flawed!

meant to say framing the blues by the same 12 bar aab definition.

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

brianlux said:

SRV certainly was a tremendous guitarist.  I think he is generally regarded as blues rock, but blues was certainly a big part of his music.

Cropduster-80 said:

I like blues. Not my favourite but I like it.

to me blues is a sub genre of folk music so it’s hard to like one but not the other.  

Country music is far more repetitive to me. Lost my girlfriend, something about my truck, etc. that’s the vast majority of country themes (lyrically).  Musically I think jazz shows you there is a lot you can do with a repetitive basic musical pattern.  Blues may be a bit more simple but I don’t think a basic musical structure  is necessarily limiting 

Interesting point.  There are musicians who sit right on the edge between blues and country music.  Josh White comes to mind. 

Hot weather sleep deprivation edit:  Josh White was on the border of folk and blues, not country and blues.   Egads.  More coffee, please!

Also, you brought up jazz.  Blues in jazz is something that has always befuddled me.  When I hear a number by, say, Coltrane or Ellington that is referred to as blues, it still sounds like jazz to me.  I'm not sure I could point out a blues number in jazz- rarely anyway.  There are some pieces that the World Saxophone Quartet have done that sound like blues, but they sometimes did renditions of well known tunes that are obviously blues and r&b.  But not being able to pick out a blues number by someone like Coltrane always feels like a flaw in my interest in music.  Oh well, gotta live with one's flaws, right?

that would be because you appear to be framing jazz as by the same narrow definition as that writer.

heres a different take , at least in regards to an evolution in blues and jazz.

https://cincyblues.org/education/difference-between-blues-and-jazz/

Not sure why you would say that, M.  I have a good sized jazz collection that includes dixieland, big band/ swing, bebop, hard bop, modal, free jazz, avante guard, Latin jazz, and fusion and if you play an example of any of them I can tell you what they are.  And I took a class at S.F. State taught by alto sax player John Handy that covered the history of jazz.  But I still can't tell you if a certain piece by Coltrane or Oliver Nelson or whomever is a blues piece or not.  Like I said, I'm flawed!

meant to say framing the blues by the same 12 bar aab definition.

Got it!  Yeah, not all blues are 12 bar. Maybe be that's not something Egan was aware of or, more likely, maybe he actually meant to be specifically referring to 12 bar blues which is what we generally refer to as "blues".

In any case, for the purpose of this discussion, let's refer to 12-bar blues, otherwise it's going to get really convoluted (and will probably die on the vine soon enough anyway, lol.)

mickeyrat

have you seen rumble? music doc....

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

have you seen rumble? music doc....

Yes!  Jimi, Link Wray, Buffy St. Marie, Robbie Roberson, and others... Indians that rock!  Fantastic! 

For those who haven't seen it, here the trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni7fAqjA0BE

mickeyrat

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

have you seen rumble? music doc....

Yes!  Jimi, Link Wray, Buffy St. Marie, Robbie Roberson, and others... Indians that rock!  Fantastic! 

For those who haven't seen it, here the trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni7fAqjA0BE

I bring it up because of the influence native music had on blues etc from the beginning.....

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

have you seen rumble? music doc....

Yes!  Jimi, Link Wray, Buffy St. Marie, Robbie Roberson, and others... Indians that rock!  Fantastic! 

For those who haven't seen it, here the trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni7fAqjA0BE

I bring it up because of the influence native music had on blues etc from the beginning.....

Good point, M!  And in country music too. Waylon Jennings talked about that a little in his autobiography, Waylon, and Willie Nelson as well, of course, in some of his books. And Johnny Cash went deep into the subject with this great record:

This is worth checking out as well:

pjpjpaul

Blues is not boring and whatever limitations there may be, many artists have pushed its sonic boundaries throughout the years which has in turn has helped create new types of music like jazz, r&b, and rock. 

brianlux

pjpjpaul said:

Blues is not boring and whatever limitations there may be, many artists have pushed its sonic boundaries throughout the years which has in turn has helped create new types of music like jazz, r&b, and rock. 

Ha!  Proof yet again that often the most concise answers that the best.