Eastern Europe shows just don't make sense...

Given to...

Am I alone in thinking that shows in Krakow, Vienna, Budapest and others should be cancelled?

The horrors to the people of Ukraine are weighing much more heavily on me than a few shows.   The cities are already being stressed beyond their current ability, human suffering and human services bulging to breaking points.

Lodging needs for refugees, increased travel difficulties, shortages of medical, social concerns...

Thoughts?

bootlegger10

If safety is not a concern than I think the shows should go on.  Mainly because I am sure tourism is a big part of the economy in these cities and employs a lot of people.  If tourism is still encouraged by these cities then I don’t see why PJ should cancel. We’ll have to see if these cities  stop hosting events.

1ThoughtKnown

I’m sure the band/promoters are monitoring the situation closely. The shows are months away yet and there is hope for an end to the conflict.
My take, it’s too early to cancel. 

gotthebottle

Given to... said:

Am I alone in thinking that shows in Krakow, Vienna, Budapest and others should be cancelled?

The horrors to the people of Ukraine are weighing much more heavily on me than a few shows.   The cities are already being stressed beyond their current ability, human suffering and human services bulging to breaking points.

Lodging needs for refugees, increased travel difficulties, shortages of medical, social concerns...

Thoughts?

The suffering is difficult to watch... they have no food, water, power, medicine.... no one coming to save them... not much we can do. 
Can't imagine shows going on .... esp since putin crazy enough to go further than Ukraine.

BlueLedbetter

Krakow especially I'm uncomfortable with. Poland has taken almost 2 million refugees already over 100k in Krakow alone and is struggling to cope. Hopefully the situation is much better soon but if not I can see that show at least being cancelled 

tino_11

For me, it’s more the thought or travelling to concerts for enjoyment whilst atrocities are taking place close by. But in reality that thought process shouldn’t be different if I see shows there or anywhere else in the world right now. 

Somebody has mentioned the impact on tourism and this is an important point. Having empty hotels, restaurants etc. is going to make things harder for local people. I’m sure promoters are in touch with local authorities to decide what needs to happen. The vast majority of us don’t know enough about the situation on the ground to be able to give a informed opinion. 

tino_11

Also wanted to add, I appreciate my perspectives are from somebody who is fortunate enough to travel around Europe seeing multiple shows. 

We also need to consider the thoughts of local fans who aren’t able to travel elsewhere (would this show provide some escapism/joy for them), as well as the local public (is it appropriate to host concerts there right now?). 

I don’t have any answers but just wanted to show it isn’t a decision to make lightly. 

PJNB

They are 4 months away. Difficult to watch what is happening right now in Ukraine but even today shows are happening in Krakow. 4 months is a long time. Hopefully they happen since if they do that means Ukraine is likely in
a better spot.

Cropduster-80

I think they should cancel entirely because of the refugee situation.  The big cities in Poland in particular  have taken in so many people according to their mayors they are full to the point that the city can’t function normally. I would suspect refugees are being put in whatever available bed the city has. 

If the conflict ends in the next few months I highly doubt the refugees will return home to a Russian occupied Ukraine. The fighting may end but the occupation will not. The number of people fleeing is probably going to continue/increase once it’s safer to leave. 

The direct “support” to the tourism industry that a concert  provides isn’t worth the extra bodies in the cities. Plus they will get access to the money in direct aid that western countries are providing. Part of that will have to go to providing funds to these cities to address the refugee situation out of the  billions of dollars.

RatherStarved

It is so sad.  There are no words.

droptheleash9

What is going on in Ukraine is obviously horrible and I can't imagine what it must feel like to be in the shoes of a Ukrainian citizen. With that said, you can call me coldhearted but I don't think Pearl Jam cancelling shows in those cities moves the needle one way or another in terms of impacting the situation. If there are legitimate safety concerns (which I'm sure the promoters/band are monitoring closely), then by all means cancel the shows (much like they did in March 2020). But my opinion is that axing shows in nearby countries doesn't buy the band any goodwill in terms of their fanbase or the international community and does little to impact what's going on over there.

David.Narwhal

People need music as a release from the current situation. The revenue earned from putting on a show helps the local economy which is being strained even with the best support efforts. And if an event can help re-energize people to keep fighting the good fight for freedom and democracy, it's going to a Pearl Jam show. From my view, and a couple relatives in Poland, this is huge for Polish and Ukrainian people alike.

Cropduster-80

DH23119 said:

People need music as a release from the current situation. The revenue earned from putting on a show helps the local economy which is being strained even with the best support efforts. And if an event can help re-energize people to keep fighting the good fight for freedom and democracy, it's going to a Pearl Jam show. From my view, and a couple relatives in Poland, this is huge for Polish and Ukrainian people alike.

I don’t entirely disagree. A concert is a great thing. For the people who are there already. 

 Thousands of people travelling there filling an already full city further is more is where I disagree. To me it’s two different things.  If PJ put on a show entirely for these cities and no one else traveled there that would be great. That isn’t practical though. 

JimmyV

Let's see where we are in a few months and hope for the best. 

gotthebottle

PJNB said:

They are 4 months away. Difficult to watch what is happening right now in Ukraine but even today shows are happening in Krakow. 4 months is a long time. Hopefully they happen since if they do that means Ukraine is likely in
a better spot.

Given to... said:

Am I alone in thinking that shows in Krakow, Vienna, Budapest and others should be cancelled?

The horrors to the people of Ukraine are weighing much more heavily on me than a few shows.   The cities are already being stressed beyond their current ability, human suffering and human services bulging to breaking points.

Lodging needs for refugees, increased travel difficulties, shortages of medical, social concerns...

Thoughts?

War doesn't go away in 4 months... it's not a long time

Cropduster-80

To put it in perspective.  Seattle and Krakow have similar populations.  Seattle has 14,000 hotel rooms. Larger king county has 40,000 hotel rooms.  If a minimum of 100,000 plus refugees entered Seattle already with no end in sight how would the city house them? I don’t think we would be having the same conversation at that point. 

The scale of this is immense when you look at the numbers these cities are dealing with.  That’s a small number of the total refugees but on a city by city basis and doing the math of where to put them is unsustainable 

PJNB

Cropduster-80 said:

To put it in perspective.  Seattle and Krakow have similar populations.  Seattle has 14,000 hotel rooms. Larger king county has 40,000 hotel rooms.  If a minimum of 100,000 plus refugees entered Seattle already with no end in sight how would the city house them? I don’t think we would be having the same conversation at that point. 

The scale of this is immense when you look at the numbers these cities are dealing with.  That’s a small number of the total refugees but on a city by city basis and doing the math of where to put them it is unsustainable 

This will be decided on a government level. If these cities are shutting down tourism all summer then yes they do not play. Pearl Jam even with a travelling fanbase puts a very small dent in the big picture for these cities.


Also there is reports today of a real ceasefire coming in the next couple of days. If the reports are true then this is huge news for the Ukraine people. 

2-feign-reluctance

gotthebottle said:

PJNB said:

They are 4 months away. Difficult to watch what is happening right now in Ukraine but even today shows are happening in Krakow. 4 months is a long time. Hopefully they happen since if they do that means Ukraine is likely in
a better spot.

Given to... said:

Am I alone in thinking that shows in Krakow, Vienna, Budapest and others should be cancelled?

The horrors to the people of Ukraine are weighing much more heavily on me than a few shows.   The cities are already being stressed beyond their current ability, human suffering and human services bulging to breaking points.

Lodging needs for refugees, increased travel difficulties, shortages of medical, social concerns...

Thoughts?

War doesn't go away in 4 months... it's not a long time

Exactly. Putin’s track record over the last 30 years says this goes on for years. I really fucking hate the world right now. 

David.Narwhal

Cropduster-80 said:

DH23119 said:

People need music as a release from the current situation. The revenue earned from putting on a show helps the local economy which is being strained even with the best support efforts. And if an event can help re-energize people to keep fighting the good fight for freedom and democracy, it's going to a Pearl Jam show. From my view, and a couple relatives in Poland, this is huge for Polish and Ukrainian people alike.

I don’t entirely disagree. A concert is a great thing. For the people who are there already. 

 Thousands of people travelling there filling an already full city further is more is where I disagree. To me it’s two different things.  If PJ put on a show entirely for these cities and no one else traveled there that would be great. That isn’t practical though. 

I understand where you are coming from with this.  There is sort of this double edged sword with folks traveling in for the show itself, and we know this will absolutely happen.  My hope would be travelers figuring out how to minimize their impact or consider alternatives to attending the show altogether.  Maybe let the folks in these regions have this one or others? (Assuming we're not just talking about Krakow)

Provided the show will happen, I feel like this would be an epic event for the band to have, and as a result, the Vitalogy Foundation could possibly to do some great work in support of the people that need it much like the Home & Away shows did a few years back.

Thanks for the constructive discussion on this; I appreciate being able to absorb different perspectives on this.

Gravey1975

droptheleash9 said:

What is going on in Ukraine is obviously horrible and I can't imagine what it must feel like to be in the shoes of a Ukrainian citizen. With that said, you can call me coldhearted but I don't think Pearl Jam cancelling shows in those cities moves the needle one way or another in terms of impacting the situation. If there are legitimate safety concerns (which I'm sure the promoters/band are monitoring closely), then by all means cancel the shows (much like they did in March 2020). But my opinion is that axing shows in nearby countries doesn't buy the band any goodwill in terms of their fanbase or the international community and does little to impact what's going on over there.

That's pretty much how I feel. I've yet to hear of any bands pulling European tours as a result of this horror show, and unless Russia decides to start invading nations beyond Ukraine, I wouldn't expect cancellations to happen in the future either. 

Call me a pessimist, but I think this war is going to drag on for years and years. Russia will topple Kyiv, install a puppet govt and will be battling insurgency for many years. Hope I'm wrong tho. 

HailHailVitalogy

I have tickets for: Berlin, Zurich, Frankfurt, Krakow, Budapest, Vienna, and Prague

I might be only comfortable with the first 3. Original plan was to go to Portugal for 2 weeks in between Frankfurt and Krakow, and go to Warsaw before Krakow. Krakow 2018 was one of my top 3 or 5 shows ever out of 39 PJ shows

bootlegger10

Hopefully not, but I wonder if those countries shut down tourism, events, etc... if that would create resentment to the refugees.  Terrible situation caused by ONE person.  Insanity.  

mrussel1

Cropduster-80 said:

To put it in perspective.  Seattle and Krakow have similar populations.  Seattle has 14,000 hotel rooms. Larger king county has 40,000 hotel rooms.  If a minimum of 100,000 plus refugees entered Seattle already with no end in sight how would the city house them? I don’t think we would be having the same conversation at that point. 

The scale of this is immense when you look at the numbers these cities are dealing with.  That’s a small number of the total refugees but on a city by city basis and doing the math of where to put them is unsustainable 

Are you sure that hotels are taking in the majority of these refugees? I only have one data point but I have extended family in Eastern Poland and they have taken in a family as have several of their neighbors. 

mrussel1

I was against the Budapest show prior to the invasion because I think Orban is trying to be a mini Putin.  However I am softened a bit because Hungary has condemned Russia and joined EU in all sanctions. He is someone to watch over the next decade. He could easily go hard authoritarian. 

RatherStarved

Anyone know how the situation is in Budapest right now?

drfox

The shows have no risk of cancellation unless the conflict extends to other countries. And if that happens the World has more to worry about than concerts, and generally everything would be cancelled - gigs, football, holidays etc. 

I sort of think PJ will be keener than ever to play those Eastern European countries and could help raise awareness and funding for the refugees. 

Cropduster-80

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

To put it in perspective.  Seattle and Krakow have similar populations.  Seattle has 14,000 hotel rooms. Larger king county has 40,000 hotel rooms.  If a minimum of 100,000 plus refugees entered Seattle already with no end in sight how would the city house them? I don’t think we would be having the same conversation at that point. 

The scale of this is immense when you look at the numbers these cities are dealing with.  That’s a small number of the total refugees but on a city by city basis and doing the math of where to put them is unsustainable 

Are you sure that hotels are taking in the majority of these refugees? I only have one data point but I have extended family in Eastern Poland and they have taken in a family as have several of their neighbors. 

All I am saying is increasing a city’s population by 15-20 percent overnight presents a lot of challenges. Housing them is one. Hotels or families opening their homes are probably all happening. Consumable resources, and infrastructure designed for a smaller city having to adapt overnight is also a pretty big challenge. 

I know where I live any hint of a hurricane and store shelves go bare overnight it takes a few weeks to go back to normal. Sustaining that spike in demand indefinitely requires more truck drivers, more production and  logistics that take time. 

I have no idea if this is an issue or not but consider stuff like mobile data networks. Could those even handle hundreds of thousands of additional phones accessing them? Bandwidth etc.  it’s a lot of strain on infrastructure that is designed to meet current demand and grow organically over time as population naturally grows vs all of a sudden 

drfox

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

To put it in perspective.  Seattle and Krakow have similar populations.  Seattle has 14,000 hotel rooms. Larger king county has 40,000 hotel rooms.  If a minimum of 100,000 plus refugees entered Seattle already with no end in sight how would the city house them? I don’t think we would be having the same conversation at that point. 

The scale of this is immense when you look at the numbers these cities are dealing with.  That’s a small number of the total refugees but on a city by city basis and doing the math of where to put them is unsustainable 

Are you sure that hotels are taking in the majority of these refugees? I only have one data point but I have extended family in Eastern Poland and they have taken in a family as have several of their neighbors. 

All I am saying is increasing a city’s population by 15-20 percent overnight presents a lot of challenges. Housing them is one. Hotels or families opening their homes are probably all happening. Consumable resources, and infrastructure designed for a smaller city having to adapt overnight is also a pretty big challenge. 

I know where I live any hint of a hurricane and store shelves go bare overnight it takes a few weeks to go back to normal. Sustaining that spike in demand indefinitely requires more truck drivers, more production and  logistics that take time. 

I have no idea if this is an issue or not but consider stuff like mobile data networks. Could those even handle hundreds of thousands of additional phones accessing them? Bandwidth etc.  it’s a lot of strain on infrastructure that is designed to meet current demand and grow organically over time as population naturally grows vs all of a sudden 

By June/July time many of the refugees will be spread throughout Europe. They are only in Poland at the moment as it’s next to Ukraine and it’s the easiest way of escaping the country. Here in the U.K. we are going to give incentives for people to house refugees (£350 per refugee per month) and other places like France, Germany etc are planning to do similar initiatives. 

Cropduster-80

drfox said:

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

To put it in perspective.  Seattle and Krakow have similar populations.  Seattle has 14,000 hotel rooms. Larger king county has 40,000 hotel rooms.  If a minimum of 100,000 plus refugees entered Seattle already with no end in sight how would the city house them? I don’t think we would be having the same conversation at that point. 

The scale of this is immense when you look at the numbers these cities are dealing with.  That’s a small number of the total refugees but on a city by city basis and doing the math of where to put them is unsustainable 

Are you sure that hotels are taking in the majority of these refugees? I only have one data point but I have extended family in Eastern Poland and they have taken in a family as have several of their neighbors. 

All I am saying is increasing a city’s population by 15-20 percent overnight presents a lot of challenges. Housing them is one. Hotels or families opening their homes are probably all happening. Consumable resources, and infrastructure designed for a smaller city having to adapt overnight is also a pretty big challenge. 

I know where I live any hint of a hurricane and store shelves go bare overnight it takes a few weeks to go back to normal. Sustaining that spike in demand indefinitely requires more truck drivers, more production and  logistics that take time. 

I have no idea if this is an issue or not but consider stuff like mobile data networks. Could those even handle hundreds of thousands of additional phones accessing them? Bandwidth etc.  it’s a lot of strain on infrastructure that is designed to meet current demand and grow organically over time as population naturally grows vs all of a sudden 

By June/July time many of the refugees will be spread throughout Europe. They are only in Poland at the moment as it’s next to Ukraine and it’s the easiest way of escaping the country. Here in the U.K. we are going to give incentives for people to house refugees (£350 per refugee per month) and other places like France, Germany etc are planning to do similar initiatives. 

I hope that happens. I think the image of massive tent cities full of refugees fleeing a war is something that cannot be allowed to happen in Europe.

Shouldn’t  happen anywhere but many other conflict zones around the world that’s exactly what happens 

Gravey1975

drfox said:

The shows have no risk of cancellation unless the conflict extends to other countries. And if that happens the World has more to worry about than concerts, and generally everything would be cancelled - gigs, football, holidays etc. 

I sort of think PJ will be keener than ever to play those Eastern European countries and could help raise awareness and funding for the refugees. 

This 100%

Weston1283

drfox said:

The shows have no risk of cancellation unless the conflict extends to other countries. And if that happens the World has more to worry about than concerts, and generally everything would be cancelled - gigs, football, holidays etc. 

I sort of think PJ will be keener than ever to play those Eastern European countries and could help raise awareness and funding for the refugees. 

I agree about them being keener than ever to play those shows and raising awareness.

Why not even go as far as to Livestream Krakow and Budapest shows for $20 a show, and do it on some platform like Twitch that is setup for donations.  Bring PJ fans together from around the world and give all livestream proceeds to local humanitarian efforts