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Dissident = Date Rape?

dontloseyourheatdontloseyourheat Posts: 483
edited March 2009 in Words and Music...Communication
From Twofeetthick.com

"He also gives a speech about 'Dissident' - saying that date rape is terrible and explaining that a woman's word is sacred and the no means no and that's what a "holy no" is."

http://www.twofeetthick.com/tft/cc1994.action (3/17/94)

I just stumbled across this and was a bit surprised as I had never heard this before.


Parts of it make sense but other lines seem contradictory.

She nursed him there, over a night
I wasn't so sure she wanted him to stay
What to say...what to say
But soon she was down, soon he was low
At a quarter past...a holy no...
She had to turn around
When she couldn't hold, oh...she folded...
A dissident is here
Escape is never, the safest path
A dissident, a dissident is here

On a date, went back to her house, she wanted him to leave but didn't know what to say. "Soon she was down" = passed out? He rapes her, she tries to fight but doesn't. "A dissident is here" = disagreement? "Escape is never, the safest path" means it's not a good idea to keep everything inside. She doesn't tell anyone what happened.

And to this day, she's glided on
Always home but so far away
Like a word misplaced
Nothing said, what a waste
When she had contact...with the conflict...
There was meaning, but she sold him to the state
She had to turn around
When she couldn't hold...she folded...
A dissident is here
Escape is never, the safest path
A dissident, a dissident is here

She continues to live but is empty inside. She never told the authorities about the rape. "There was meaning, but she sold him to the state" I am confused by this line as it seems to mean that she did turn him in, but that goes against the rest of the song. "She had to around" she continues to keep everything inside, never telling anyone. She tries to pretend it didn't happen but "Escape is never the safest path."

She gave him away when she couldn't hold...no...she folded...
A dissident is here
Escape is never, the safest path
A dissident, a dissident is here
Couldn't hold on...she couldn't hold...no...she folded...
A dissident is here
Escape is never the safest place
A dissident is here


If it is indeed about date rape, I am stumped by "she sold him to the state".
And I'm not really sure what " A dissident is here" means. Dissident can mean to disagree so perhaps it refers to the disagreement on the date. He wanted to sleep with her, she didn't want to? Or she it's an internal disagreement, she doesn't know what to do about what happened? Dissent also means to go against the authority. The guy dissented against the law when he committed the rape?

Who knows but it definitely seems to make sense in some aspects.



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"Don't lose your inner heat...ever" - EV 5/13/06
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • harmless_little_f***harmless_little_f*** Posts: 8,005
    Some good ideas, but it still seems like a bit of a stretch.

    My ex told me of a friend she had in hospital who was shunned by his family and told that he had brought shame on them because he had been in a car crash and was now paralysed from the neck down. The family had him put into lifelong care - 'sold him to the state' - and the song makes me think of him. The song seems to me to be about people who abandon people and mindlessly put them into care.
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  • JordyWordyJordyWordy Posts: 2,261
    dontloseyourheat wrote:
    When she had contact...with the conflict...
    There was meaning, but she sold him to the state
    She had to turn around
    When she couldn't hold...she folded...
    A dissident is here

    i always thought these lines meant she became pregnant after the one night stand, but gave the child up for adoption (or maybe had an abortion), although i never actually looked into that or examined the lyrics until now.

    makes sense in my head but that doesnt necessarily make it the actual intentional meaning of the song....
  • Flannel ShirtFlannel Shirt Posts: 1,021
    Nothing said when she had contact with the conflict. what a waste
    She had to turn around

    possibly about someone coming back to confront their abuser. The daughter coming back to confront the animals that she thought she left in her rearviewmirror. the first verse confuses me as its as if the abused is comforting the abuser in my theory.

    it kinda works because i know woman who have been abused and for gods knows what reason, they feel its still their fault and comfort their abuser and make the abuser feel better when they feel bad afterward about doing what they did. its sad, but true.

    i cant quite wrap my thoughts around this, buts thats the quick explain (probably lacking) of a complicated theory.
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  • Stone IronsStone Irons Posts: 430
    This is what Ed had to say about Dissident, from Allan Jones' Pearl Jam biography:

    In "Dissident", I'm actually talking about a woman who takes in someone who's being sought after by the authorities for political reasons. He's on the run, and she offers him a refuge. But she just can't handle the responsibility. She turns him in, then she has to live with the guilt and the realization that she's betrayed the one thing that gave her life meaning. It made her life difficult. It made her life hell. But it gave her a reason to be. But she couldn't hold on. She folded. That's the tragedy of the song.
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  • eoboeobo Posts: 102
    dontloseyourheat wrote:
    From Twofeetthick.com

    If it is indeed about date rape, I am stumped by "she sold him to the state".

    she got him arrested? dobbed him in? called the cops?
    heh, keep her lit.

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  • dharma69dharma69 Posts: 1,275
    For a good and current point of reference, if you've seen it, think "V For Vendetta". When I saw a particular scene in that movie, it was like a light bulb went on. What's even worse is the fact that I actually stared singing "Dissident" in my head during the movie.

    The scene is, after spending time with V and even comiserating a bit, where Evie is all dressed up like a schoolgirl to seduce the priest so that V could get to him. Evie went along with it as if she were on V's side, and she might have been for about 5 minutes. But as soon as she was alone with the priest, she turned on V. Started selling him out so that the cops could come and find him.

    That right there brought the song home for me.

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  • Bushleaguer28Bushleaguer28 Posts: 776
    i always thot it was about an unwanted pregnancy and the woman gave the baby up for adoption - could be wrong tho. that would explain the sold him to the state. it oculd still be about rape, i mean naturally that would be an unwanted pregnancy but i just never saw it that way
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  • WWSWWS Posts: 459
    Bushleaguer28 wrote:
    i always thot it was about an unwanted pregnancy and the woman gave the baby up for adoption - could be wrong tho. that would explain the sold him to the state. it oculd still be about rape, i mean naturally that would be an unwanted pregnancy but i just never saw it that way

    I could be both...a date rape causing a pregnancy.
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  • Ms. HaikuMs. Haiku Posts: 7,265
    I was like Winnie the Pooh on this one for many years Think Think Think. One day, in 2004 or 2005 on this forum, someone said it was actually about a dissident hiding, and the woman disclosed him. It was like a lightbulb went off. Let me see if I can find the original thread.

    Aha! Found it. Post 16

    http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=149339&page=2&highlight=dissident
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  • dontloseyourheatdontloseyourheat Posts: 483
    I always thought it was about either abortion or an actual political dissident too. It was until I listened to that boot were Ed mentioned date rape that I thought this could be a possible explanation. I guess it's just another one of those songs with multiple meanings depending on how you look at it.
    "Don't lose your inner heat...ever" - EV 5/13/06
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    definitely a bar scene in this song...

    and date rape seems on par


    what time is it?

    a quarter past...a holy, no.


    someone innocent being preyed upon...


    and the fact that the song is called dissident..and he screams... a disssidennnnt is herrrrrrrreeeeeee.............

    like trying to warn the people that are oblivious


    maybe also...the woman is having a fight with her husband and thats why shes at the bar alone... because she escaped from him... and than this guy ...is there who preys on these kind of people...


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  • slightofjeffslightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    It could be about date rape.

    Or it could be about exactly what ed said it was about. (ie, a dissident).

    But let's not let Ed's version get in the way of a good interpretation ;)
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  • SwitchSwitch Posts: 119
    It's gotta be political i reckon, 'cus it's says "She nursed him there". Like a political prisoner who was abused.

    But knowing Ed, it could be either political, or it could have something to do with abortion.
  • halszka123halszka123 Posts: 1,109
    Stone Irons wrote:
    This is what Ed had to say about Dissident, from Allan Jones' Pearl Jam biography:

    In "Dissident", I'm actually talking about a woman who takes in someone who's being sought after by the authorities for political reasons. He's on the run, and she offers him a refuge. But she just can't handle the responsibility. She turns him in, then she has to live with the guilt and the realization that she's betrayed the one thing that gave her life meaning. It made her life difficult. It made her life hell. But it gave her a reason to be. But she couldn't hold on. She folded. That's the tragedy of the song.

    Well, i must say that it's better for me that i don't know perfectly english, because i wouldn't even think about interpreting this lyric as about rape. For me that was really simple to think about it like U wrote above
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  • DiRtyFranK38DiRtyFranK38 Posts: 3,131
    i think the whole thing can be about abortion

    She nursed him there, over a night
    I wasn't so sure she wanted him to stay
    What to say...what to say
    But soon she was down, soon he was low
    At a quarter past...a holy no...
    She had to turn around
    When she couldn't hold, oh...she folded...
    A dissident is here
    Escape is never, the safest path
    A dissident, a dissident is here

    this can maybe be interpreted as her nursing the child overnight, wasn't sure if she wanted to keep him or not, but was distraught about it. soon she was down, and he was low,she couldn't hold on, she folded blah blah she gave in and had an abortion. the second verse can be how her life was so affected by it. there was meaning, but she sold him to the state. the child meant something to her, and was something special to charish, but she couldn't hold on and sold him to the state. ed was also involved in that whole pro-abortion thing at that time. this can be interpreted politically like ed said, or like this. i think ed kinda had both in mind.
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  • DissidentfeelingDissidentfeeling Posts: 78
    That's possible, and it's common for Pearl Jam to write songs that defy things like bad hospital insurance and limited gun control, making it somewhat possible that this song is about date rape. Very astute observations you have there, by the way.

    "Dissident" is such a chill song but sometimes the issue that a track's lyrics deal with is unclear.
  • DriftingByTheStormDriftingByTheStorm Posts: 8,684
    Stone Irons wrote:
    This is what Ed had to say about Dissident, from Allan Jones' Pearl Jam biography:

    In "Dissident", I'm actually talking about a woman who takes in someone who's being sought after by the authorities for political reasons. He's on the run, and she offers him a refuge. But she just can't handle the responsibility. She turns him in, then she has to live with the guilt and the realization that she's betrayed the one thing that gave her life meaning. It made her life difficult. It made her life hell. But it gave her a reason to be. But she couldn't hold on. She folded. That's the tragedy of the song.

    Well.
    I've never seen that quote form Eddie, himself.
    But that is always what i thought the song was about.
    It is the obvious meaning.

    HOWEVER

    The i like the whole date rape\abortion angle, and i think this is a GREAT case of, well actualy, TWO things:

    1. of how Ed always says (and of videos particularly) how he doesn't like to explain the song, because he wants the audience to have their own personal meanings\interpretations & appreciations for songs

    2. how somethings can be deliberately written about one thing, but mean something else by either coincience or clever intent

    "Go" is also like this.
    Although with Go i think the meaning infered most generaly by the audience -- the whole angsty\abuse\loss thing -- was intended, even though Eddie says it was written abou his pickup truck. Lol.

    :D:D:D

    short statement: Yeah. I had never heard or thought of the dater rape\abortion angle, but i really like it.
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  • FahkaFahka Posts: 3,187
    dontloseyourheat wrote:
    From Twofeetthick.com

    "He also gives a speech about 'Dissident' - saying that date rape is terrible and explaining that a woman's word is sacred and the no means no and that's what a "holy no" is."

    http://www.twofeetthick.com/tft/cc1994.action (3/17/94)

    I just stumbled across this and was a bit surprised as I had never heard this before.


    Parts of it make sense but other lines seem contradictory.

    She nursed him there, over a night
    I wasn't so sure she wanted him to stay
    What to say...what to say
    But soon she was down, soon he was low
    At a quarter past...a holy no...
    She had to turn around
    When she couldn't hold, oh...she folded...
    A dissident is here
    Escape is never, the safest path
    A dissident, a dissident is here

    On a date, went back to her house, she wanted him to leave but didn't know what to say. "Soon she was down" = passed out? He rapes her, she tries to fight but doesn't. "A dissident is here" = disagreement? "Escape is never, the safest path" means it's not a good idea to keep everything inside. She doesn't tell anyone what happened.

    And to this day, she's glided on
    Always home but so far away
    Like a word misplaced
    Nothing said, what a waste
    When she had contact...with the conflict...
    There was meaning, but she sold him to the state
    She had to turn around
    When she couldn't hold...she folded...
    A dissident is here
    Escape is never, the safest path
    A dissident, a dissident is here

    She continues to live but is empty inside. She never told the authorities about the rape. "There was meaning, but she sold him to the state" I am confused by this line as it seems to mean that she did turn him in, but that goes against the rest of the song. "She had to around" she continues to keep everything inside, never telling anyone. She tries to pretend it didn't happen but "Escape is never the safest path."

    She gave him away when she couldn't hold...no...she folded...
    A dissident is here
    Escape is never, the safest path
    A dissident, a dissident is here
    Couldn't hold on...she couldn't hold...no...she folded...
    A dissident is here
    Escape is never the safest place
    A dissident is here


    If it is indeed about date rape, I am stumped by "she sold him to the state".
    And I'm not really sure what " A dissident is here" means. Dissident can mean to disagree so perhaps it refers to the disagreement on the date. He wanted to sleep with her, she didn't want to? Or she it's an internal disagreement, she doesn't know what to do about what happened? Dissent also means to go against the authority. The guy dissented against the law when he committed the rape?

    Who knows but it definitely seems to make sense in some aspects.



    PS. Didn't there used to be a lot more pages in this forum?



    very cool analysis i enjoyed reading it .. i wouldn't even know where to begin to start to peg this one down but i think you are off to a good start
  • mj284440mj284440 Posts: 1
    think about the theme of almost all the songs on the "vs" album - law enforcement - guns, police brutality, etc. most of the songs are about escaping the police ["once you were in my rearview mirror"], many times for good reason since cops have been known to take advantage in situations by improperly using excessive force when use of any force at all is unwarranted [in Go, "never acted up before, don't go on me now" and in WMA: "do no wrong, so clean cut, dirty his hands it comes right off policeman"]. so, i think dissident is most likely about cooperating with the state and obeying the law "escape is never the safest path...." maybe, it's called dissident because it's different than all the other songs on the album...so, although date rape is a very serious, heinous criminal act, i think it is more likely that the theme in dissident is about "the people vs. the criminal" and not the ramifications of pregnancy or rape.
    marissa
  • megatronmegatron Posts: 3,420
    im all for different meanings. thats what i love about these guys. everyone gets a different feel and reaction to the same music
    i always thought it was about a one night stand that lead to giving up the kid to adoption.
    i really get that date rape thoughts though. makes complete sense
  • FahkaFahka Posts: 3,187
    CC279494 wrote:
    im all for different meanings. thats what i love about these guys. everyone gets a different feel and reaction to the same music
    i always thought it was about a one night stand that lead to giving up the kid to adoption.
    i really get that date rape thoughts though. makes complete sense


    wow! see i love reading all the different interps.. and yep, that's what separates pearl jam from the bunch! I've noticed that everyone in the band who writes lyrics kind of writes in a way that it doesn't just spell everything out . To be honest i never even thought about Dissident's meaning (which is weird because i do with pretty much every other song) I just always enjoyed the guitar work, and the general composure of the songs.


    i just remember how it made me feel , specially the Tb2k version :o
  • mrshock13mrshock13 Posts: 472
    dharma69 wrote:

    I really need to listen to a little less Pearl Jam.

    TAKE THAT BACK!!! You, and we all, know you don't mean it.

    On a related note, a poster higher up explained about the lady who took in a young man on the run, took care of him, and turned him in because he was too hard to take care of. That's the meaning of the song, that's what Ed said about the song.
  • stevehomeairstevehomeair Posts: 318
    About a girl who cannot afford a child and leaves him at the hospital..But can't sleep and goes back the next day to pick him up...His name was Eddie Cuthbertson born in sarnia Canada almost 4 and 1/2 years ago my nephew
  • InsideJobTodayOldInsideJobTodayOld Posts: 4
    That's interesting, i've never thought of the song having a meaning this way. You mentioning rape as a possible reference to this song, however, makes me think of a Dateline documentary i saw about a month ago. Basically a girl at UVA back in the early 80's got raped at a fraternity party. At the time she reported him to the school, but nothing was done. She ended up leaving the university. 21 years later her attacker contacted her via email to appologize for the incident. She emailed him back saying he ruined her life. After several emails back and forth, she ended up turning him into the police. He was then prosecuted and sent to jail...i'm not sure eddie had this type of meaning from the song, but it definately has some similarities to this story and other rape stories im sure....very interesting. Here's an article i dug up on the story im referring to.

    http://www.readthehook.com/Stories/2006 ... s12St.html
  • Elbereth84Elbereth84 Posts: 253
    After all your rape/abortion interpretations (which makes absolute sense imo) I'll throw in a new idea ... cause I always thought the song is about medically assisted suicide:

    She nursed him there, over a night
    I wasn't so sure she wanted him to stay
    What to say...what to say
    But soon she was down, soon he was low
    At a quarter past...a holy no...
    She had to turn around
    When she couldn't hold, oh...she folded...
    A dissident is here
    Escape is never, the safest path
    A dissident, a dissident is here

    As simply as it sounds: She nursed a deathly sick person. By this time she still wasn't sure, if it's the right thing to keep him alive, cause his life isn't worth living anymore. She decided to end his life, but in the last minute she got a bad concience, the "holy no". Her heart said it would be the right thing to "help" him, but in her mind she wasn't sure. She wasn't strong enough to do it, she gave in.

    And to this day, she's glided on
    Always home but so far away
    Like a word misplaced
    Nothing said, what a waste
    When she had contact...with the conflict...
    There was meaning, but she sold him to the state
    She had to turn around
    When she couldn't hold...she folded...
    A dissident is here
    Escape is never, the safest path
    A dissident, a dissident is here

    Since that day her life changed. She thought about this whole weird situation ever and ever again, her inner conflict. She sold him to the state = cause helping to end someones life would mean violating the law. Instead of doing a supposedly "right thing", she caved in. This way she was on the safe side ... although her inner conflict was her constant conflict from this day on.

    For me a dissident is just someone, who thinks different (although the didn't go by her own thoughts/instinct).
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