SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the United States)

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  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    Even as ridiculous I think thanking a god for a touchdown is, I honestly don't see an issue with this ruling. Now, if he's mandating all his players participate, then there is an issue. but if it's voluntary, I don't see the problem. 


    And when the players who pray get to start more games or get more passes thrown their way, is it a problem then? Everything about this court is pushing the envelope until it breaks, like it just did with Roe and guns. Once upon a time, we had a saying, separation of church and state. That’s no longer a saying.

    regarding your comment on retirement age/ term limits, I’d agree with you but that’s not in the constitution so it’s not a realistic talking point. But expanding the court is a constitutional option. And if they were to pass such a law, it’s the threat to the egos that I am interested more than constantly adding 2 or 3 judges every eight years. And THEN once it’s  law it could be used as leverage to get 37 states to agree to term limits. But right now, adding judges the only card in the deck.

    many are “comforted” by the set number of judges. I ask why? The number is not set in the constitution, so the party getting manipulated has every right to use every rule to its advantage.
    of course that would be an issue. but the court can't rule on hypotheticals. 

    no, it's not in the constitution. but in this case, what's not in it is as relevant as what is in it. it doesn't say there are limits. so that means, there are no limits. that means "lifetime" unless the judge retires. 
    This stuff discriminates against the non Christians and even different Christians

    my wife has some crazy stories about growing up in east Texas as a catholic when everyone else was southern Baptist. As a Christian she felt attacked. She wasn’t the right kind of Christian 

    prayer in school happens all the time. It’s not like this case was an isolated incident. I just don’t see why people can’t leave church at church 

    Anytime you are “the other” it’s not good 
    I agree that in schools, where a student doesn't have the option to leave, should not be allowed (I remember a classmate of my sister's had to stand outside in the hallway during the singing of Oh Canada and bible readings because of her/her parent's religion-I can't imagine how she must have felt).

    even when I was in grade six, and still a christian, and my battle ax of a teacher would read a bible lesson to us every day, I didn't understand how she was allowed to do that. 

    this was after a game. an unofficial, completely optional exercise. participate or don't. I agree, it probably isolates those that don't. But there's that element of life all over the place. Stick to your guns, and if it becomes an issue on the field (figuratively), then fight your fight. 
    I get more concerned with the incrementalism of this stuff getting into schools etc. 

    where does it end? That’s a real concern. It’s not stopping here 

    certain schools don’t teach Islam in history class anymore. It’s essential to world history.  Even in the context of history, it’s not allowed.  You also can’t separate Christianity from eoropean history.  That’s ok though 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 37,357
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 
    "Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk"
    -EV  8/14/93




  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    Fair point. 
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 9,881
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    Even as ridiculous I think thanking a god for a touchdown is, I honestly don't see an issue with this ruling. Now, if he's mandating all his players participate, then there is an issue. but if it's voluntary, I don't see the problem. 


    And when the players who pray get to start more games or get more passes thrown their way, is it a problem then? Everything about this court is pushing the envelope until it breaks, like it just did with Roe and guns. Once upon a time, we had a saying, separation of church and state. That’s no longer a saying.

    regarding your comment on retirement age/ term limits, I’d agree with you but that’s not in the constitution so it’s not a realistic talking point. But expanding the court is a constitutional option. And if they were to pass such a law, it’s the threat to the egos that I am interested more than constantly adding 2 or 3 judges every eight years. And THEN once it’s  law it could be used as leverage to get 37 states to agree to term limits. But right now, adding judges the only card in the deck.

    many are “comforted” by the set number of judges. I ask why? The number is not set in the constitution, so the party getting manipulated has every right to use every rule to its advantage.
    of course that would be an issue. but the court can't rule on hypotheticals. 

    no, it's not in the constitution. but in this case, what's not in it is as relevant as what is in it. it doesn't say there are limits. so that means, there are no limits. that means "lifetime" unless the judge retires. 
    This stuff discriminates against the non Christians and even different Christians

    my wife has some crazy stories about growing up in east Texas as a catholic when everyone else was southern Baptist. As a Christian she felt attacked. She wasn’t the right kind of Christian 

    prayer in school happens all the time. It’s not like this case was an isolated incident. I just don’t see why people can’t leave church at church 

    Anytime you are “the other” it’s not good 
    I agree that in schools, where a student doesn't have the option to leave, should not be allowed (I remember a classmate of my sister's had to stand outside in the hallway during the singing of Oh Canada and bible readings because of her/her parent's religion-I can't imagine how she must have felt).

    even when I was in grade six, and still a christian, and my battle ax of a teacher would read a bible lesson to us every day, I didn't understand how she was allowed to do that. 

    this was after a game. an unofficial, completely optional exercise. participate or don't. I agree, it probably isolates those that don't. But there's that element of life all over the place. Stick to your guns, and if it becomes an issue on the field (figuratively), then fight your fight. 
    It just becomes easier to identify and isolate those who don't participate, but this happens in all types of situations so what's one more reason? Maybe everyone's going to Buffalo Wild Wings after the big game, but you're vegetarian or everyone is hitting up happy hour after work, but you don't drink and on and on. We get stuck on religion, but there are microcosms of established clique activities already in place for many social activities. The main focus needs to be on eliminating bias if you don't fall in to that group. We want there to be acceptance of others and their views, but at the same time seem to expect them to hide these differences when they are around you (figurative you). Yeah, I get it, separation of church and state, but unless the coach mandates prayer or any other religious activity, it won't be an issue. 
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 37,357
    tbergs said:
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    Even as ridiculous I think thanking a god for a touchdown is, I honestly don't see an issue with this ruling. Now, if he's mandating all his players participate, then there is an issue. but if it's voluntary, I don't see the problem. 


    And when the players who pray get to start more games or get more passes thrown their way, is it a problem then? Everything about this court is pushing the envelope until it breaks, like it just did with Roe and guns. Once upon a time, we had a saying, separation of church and state. That’s no longer a saying.

    regarding your comment on retirement age/ term limits, I’d agree with you but that’s not in the constitution so it’s not a realistic talking point. But expanding the court is a constitutional option. And if they were to pass such a law, it’s the threat to the egos that I am interested more than constantly adding 2 or 3 judges every eight years. And THEN once it’s  law it could be used as leverage to get 37 states to agree to term limits. But right now, adding judges the only card in the deck.

    many are “comforted” by the set number of judges. I ask why? The number is not set in the constitution, so the party getting manipulated has every right to use every rule to its advantage.
    of course that would be an issue. but the court can't rule on hypotheticals. 

    no, it's not in the constitution. but in this case, what's not in it is as relevant as what is in it. it doesn't say there are limits. so that means, there are no limits. that means "lifetime" unless the judge retires. 
    This stuff discriminates against the non Christians and even different Christians

    my wife has some crazy stories about growing up in east Texas as a catholic when everyone else was southern Baptist. As a Christian she felt attacked. She wasn’t the right kind of Christian 

    prayer in school happens all the time. It’s not like this case was an isolated incident. I just don’t see why people can’t leave church at church 

    Anytime you are “the other” it’s not good 
    I agree that in schools, where a student doesn't have the option to leave, should not be allowed (I remember a classmate of my sister's had to stand outside in the hallway during the singing of Oh Canada and bible readings because of her/her parent's religion-I can't imagine how she must have felt).

    even when I was in grade six, and still a christian, and my battle ax of a teacher would read a bible lesson to us every day, I didn't understand how she was allowed to do that. 

    this was after a game. an unofficial, completely optional exercise. participate or don't. I agree, it probably isolates those that don't. But there's that element of life all over the place. Stick to your guns, and if it becomes an issue on the field (figuratively), then fight your fight. 
    It just becomes easier to identify and isolate those who don't participate, but this happens in all types of situations so what's one more reason? Maybe everyone's going to Buffalo Wild Wings after the big game, but you're vegetarian or everyone is hitting up happy hour after work, but you don't drink and on and on. We get stuck on religion, but there are microcosms of established clique activities already in place for many social activities. The main focus needs to be on eliminating bias if you don't fall in to that group. We want there to be acceptance of others and their views, but at the same time seem to expect them to hide these differences when they are around you (figurative you). Yeah, I get it, separation of church and state, but unless the coach mandates prayer or any other religious activity, it won't be an issue. 
    exactly
    "Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk"
    -EV  8/14/93




  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited June 2022
    tbergs said:
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    Even as ridiculous I think thanking a god for a touchdown is, I honestly don't see an issue with this ruling. Now, if he's mandating all his players participate, then there is an issue. but if it's voluntary, I don't see the problem. 


    And when the players who pray get to start more games or get more passes thrown their way, is it a problem then? Everything about this court is pushing the envelope until it breaks, like it just did with Roe and guns. Once upon a time, we had a saying, separation of church and state. That’s no longer a saying.

    regarding your comment on retirement age/ term limits, I’d agree with you but that’s not in the constitution so it’s not a realistic talking point. But expanding the court is a constitutional option. And if they were to pass such a law, it’s the threat to the egos that I am interested more than constantly adding 2 or 3 judges every eight years. And THEN once it’s  law it could be used as leverage to get 37 states to agree to term limits. But right now, adding judges the only card in the deck.

    many are “comforted” by the set number of judges. I ask why? The number is not set in the constitution, so the party getting manipulated has every right to use every rule to its advantage.
    of course that would be an issue. but the court can't rule on hypotheticals. 

    no, it's not in the constitution. but in this case, what's not in it is as relevant as what is in it. it doesn't say there are limits. so that means, there are no limits. that means "lifetime" unless the judge retires. 
    This stuff discriminates against the non Christians and even different Christians

    my wife has some crazy stories about growing up in east Texas as a catholic when everyone else was southern Baptist. As a Christian she felt attacked. She wasn’t the right kind of Christian 

    prayer in school happens all the time. It’s not like this case was an isolated incident. I just don’t see why people can’t leave church at church 

    Anytime you are “the other” it’s not good 
    I agree that in schools, where a student doesn't have the option to leave, should not be allowed (I remember a classmate of my sister's had to stand outside in the hallway during the singing of Oh Canada and bible readings because of her/her parent's religion-I can't imagine how she must have felt).

    even when I was in grade six, and still a christian, and my battle ax of a teacher would read a bible lesson to us every day, I didn't understand how she was allowed to do that. 

    this was after a game. an unofficial, completely optional exercise. participate or don't. I agree, it probably isolates those that don't. But there's that element of life all over the place. Stick to your guns, and if it becomes an issue on the field (figuratively), then fight your fight. 
    It just becomes easier to identify and isolate those who don't participate, but this happens in all types of situations so what's one more reason? Maybe everyone's going to Buffalo Wild Wings after the big game, but you're vegetarian or everyone is hitting up happy hour after work, but you don't drink and on and on. We get stuck on religion, but there are microcosms of established clique activities already in place for many social activities. The main focus needs to be on eliminating bias if you don't fall in to that group. We want there to be acceptance of others and their views, but at the same time seem to expect them to hide these differences when they are around you (figurative you). Yeah, I get it, separation of church and state, but unless the coach mandates prayer or any other religious activity, it won't be an issue. 
    Ha

    i can’t send my kids to school with peanut butter and birthday treats must include vegan/ gluten free options.  Or anything that doesn’t exclude a kid.

    no idea what happens if one kid is a Jehovah’s Witness who can’t celebrate birthdays.  I presume you can’t bring anything 

    it does drive me crazy.  So I get the resistance to having to accommodate everyone. 



  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,486
    edited June 2022
    the court ruled today that a public school official has the right to lead students or student athletes in prayer on public school grounds.

    seriously. what the fuck are we doing here?
    I haven’t followed this that closely, but from what I’ve heard I see nothing wrong with it. Sounds like the coach would kneel and pray after a game and offered students to join, wasn’t mandatory.
    School officials were worried that students would feel pressured into participated in this optional prayer, so they shut it down.
    But I don’t see how you can keep someone from praying by themselves. Which is what they were trying to do.
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,486
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    Even as ridiculous I think thanking a god for a touchdown is, I honestly don't see an issue with this ruling. Now, if he's mandating all his players participate, then there is an issue. but if it's voluntary, I don't see the problem. 


    And when the players who pray get to start more games or get more passes thrown their way, is it a problem then? Everything about this court is pushing the envelope until it breaks, like it just did with Roe and guns. Once upon a time, we had a saying, separation of church and state. That’s no longer a saying.

    regarding your comment on retirement age/ term limits, I’d agree with you but that’s not in the constitution so it’s not a realistic talking point. But expanding the court is a constitutional option. And if they were to pass such a law, it’s the threat to the egos that I am interested more than constantly adding 2 or 3 judges every eight years. And THEN once it’s  law it could be used as leverage to get 37 states to agree to term limits. But right now, adding judges the only card in the deck.

    many are “comforted” by the set number of judges. I ask why? The number is not set in the constitution, so the party getting manipulated has every right to use every rule to its advantage.

    If you want to ban that because maybe some kids might feel pressured, how is that different than banning LGBT clubs when a kid says he feels pressured to participate or be labeled homophobic?
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited June 2022
    Essentially it’s a free speech issue according to the court and  less of a direct ruling on  separation of church and state. His prayer amounted to private speech, he isn’t forcing anyone to do it.

    flag burning is also free speech. If he decided to burn a flag before every game i doubt  the people cheering this ruling would have the same opinion of that.  If he kneeled before the anthem again, free (private) speech 

    if it’s free speech, then  look at speech you find offensive and then if you can support that then ok support this .  Most of these people would want him fired if it was anything but a prayer 

    there are plenty of schools who will kick a student off the team for kneeling the anthem 


    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • cutzcutz Posts: 11,908
    the court ruled today that a public school official has the right to lead students or student athletes in prayer on public school grounds.

    seriously. what the fuck are we doing here?
    WOW!
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    It’s always the Cristian prayer cases. 

     I would have preferred a Muslim coach doing Muslim prayers before games and getting fired after the parents freak out and assume he is improperly using his influence to convert Christian kids to Islam and that going to the supreme court. 

    they are protecting Christian prayer, not prayer generally as it doesn’t work out that way in practice unless you are a Christian 
    if im an opposing coach i am going to have my players say allahu akbar and see if anything happens to me.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,836
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    It’s always the Cristian prayer cases. 

     I would have preferred a Muslim coach doing Muslim prayers before games and getting fired after the parents freak out and assume he is improperly using his influence to convert Christian kids to Islam and that going to the supreme court. 

    they are protecting Christian prayer, not prayer generally as it doesn’t work out that way in practice unless you are a Christian 
    if im an opposing coach i am going to have my players say allahu akbar and see if anything happens to me.
    Well remember, he didn't force anyone.  It wasn't a condition of anything.  But it would be very interesting if we did have a Muslim or Jewish coach in a sport facilitate a similar prayer.  I'm good with the ruling, but cynically think that it won't be enforced equally under the law.  
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited June 2022
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    It’s always the Cristian prayer cases. 

     I would have preferred a Muslim coach doing Muslim prayers before games and getting fired after the parents freak out and assume he is improperly using his influence to convert Christian kids to Islam and that going to the supreme court. 

    they are protecting Christian prayer, not prayer generally as it doesn’t work out that way in practice unless you are a Christian 
    if im an opposing coach i am going to have my players say allahu akbar and see if anything happens to me.
    Just bring a prayer mat and pray in front of everyone. Tell the players they are welcome to join

    it’s pretty much a guarantee you will get booed especially in a conservative area. You may get fired 

    the fact it would create a visceral reaction from the crowd proves everything.  No one is booing a Christian prayer. If they do some guy in the crowd will take care of that real quick, physically. That also goes to show the unequal footing different religions are on to begin with and the lack of respect they are shown 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Mar-A-Lago Posts: 20,677
    mrussel1 said:
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    It’s always the Cristian prayer cases. 

     I would have preferred a Muslim coach doing Muslim prayers before games and getting fired after the parents freak out and assume he is improperly using his influence to convert Christian kids to Islam and that going to the supreme court. 

    they are protecting Christian prayer, not prayer generally as it doesn’t work out that way in practice unless you are a Christian 
    if im an opposing coach i am going to have my players say allahu akbar and see if anything happens to me.
    Well remember, he didn't force anyone.  It wasn't a condition of anything.  But it would be very interesting if we did have a Muslim or Jewish coach in a sport facilitate a similar prayer.  I'm good with the ruling, but cynically think that it won't be enforced equally under the law.  
    How about a satan worshiper?  That was always the argument that I thought back to when this issue came up. If we let a coach lead a prayer for jesus we should be ready for satan to pop up at some point.
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
    The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,486
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    It’s always the Cristian prayer cases. 

     I would have preferred a Muslim coach doing Muslim prayers before games and getting fired after the parents freak out and assume he is improperly using his influence to convert Christian kids to Islam and that going to the supreme court. 

    they are protecting Christian prayer, not prayer generally as it doesn’t work out that way in practice unless you are a Christian 
    I doubt the school would have kicked up the fuss to begin with for a Muslim prayer.
    Is there a single case against a Muslim prayer, or wearing a hijab or anything?
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited June 2022
    mace1229 said:
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    It’s always the Cristian prayer cases. 

     I would have preferred a Muslim coach doing Muslim prayers before games and getting fired after the parents freak out and assume he is improperly using his influence to convert Christian kids to Islam and that going to the supreme court. 

    they are protecting Christian prayer, not prayer generally as it doesn’t work out that way in practice unless you are a Christian 
    I doubt the school would have kicked up the fuss to begin with for a Muslim prayer.
    Is there a single case against a Muslim prayer, or wearing a hijab or anything?
    At the Supreme Court not that I know of,  that doesn’t mean a case wasn’t decided at a lower level and the Supreme Court declined to hear it, letting a lower court case stand 

    I don’t think anyone other than Christians are this forward though pushing their expression of religion onto others especially in public schools and especially authority figures (teachers/coaches) It’s also actually physically dangerous to a Muslim  if they do

    i don’t think the fact there isn’t a case necessarily means it’s an apples to apples comparison 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,486
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    It’s always the Cristian prayer cases. 

     I would have preferred a Muslim coach doing Muslim prayers before games and getting fired after the parents freak out and assume he is improperly using his influence to convert Christian kids to Islam and that going to the supreme court. 

    they are protecting Christian prayer, not prayer generally as it doesn’t work out that way in practice unless you are a Christian 
    if im an opposing coach i am going to have my players say allahu akbar and see if anything happens to me.
    You don’t see the difference between having a private prayer and offering students to join vs asking them to shout out “allah akbar” as a team?
    No one asked the kids to join the prayer.
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Mar-A-Lago Posts: 20,677
    mace1229 said:
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    It’s always the Cristian prayer cases. 

     I would have preferred a Muslim coach doing Muslim prayers before games and getting fired after the parents freak out and assume he is improperly using his influence to convert Christian kids to Islam and that going to the supreme court. 

    they are protecting Christian prayer, not prayer generally as it doesn’t work out that way in practice unless you are a Christian 
    if im an opposing coach i am going to have my players say allahu akbar and see if anything happens to me.
    You don’t see the difference between having a private prayer and offering students to join vs asking them to shout out “allah akbar” as a team?
    No one asked the kids to join the prayer.
    I do not see a difference.

    No one asked the kids to join but the appearance of favoritism would be obvious no matter how blatant or non blatant
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
    The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited June 2022
    mace1229 said:
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    It’s always the Cristian prayer cases. 

     I would have preferred a Muslim coach doing Muslim prayers before games and getting fired after the parents freak out and assume he is improperly using his influence to convert Christian kids to Islam and that going to the supreme court. 

    they are protecting Christian prayer, not prayer generally as it doesn’t work out that way in practice unless you are a Christian 
    if im an opposing coach i am going to have my players say allahu akbar and see if anything happens to me.
    You don’t see the difference between having a private prayer and offering students to join vs asking them to shout out “allah akbar” as a team?
    No one asked the kids to join the prayer.
    I do not see a difference.

    No one asked the kids to join but the appearance of favoritism would be obvious no matter how blatant or non blatant
    even seeing a muslim praying upsets a lot of evangelicals, never mind the fact their kids are “forced to watch it” too.  I can’t understand why seeing a Christian pray can’t also be seen as offensive.  It should be the same no matter who is doing it.  Either always acceptable or never, not one or the other 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 9,881
    edited June 2022
    mace1229 said:
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    It’s always the Cristian prayer cases. 

     I would have preferred a Muslim coach doing Muslim prayers before games and getting fired after the parents freak out and assume he is improperly using his influence to convert Christian kids to Islam and that going to the supreme court. 

    they are protecting Christian prayer, not prayer generally as it doesn’t work out that way in practice unless you are a Christian 
    if im an opposing coach i am going to have my players say allahu akbar and see if anything happens to me.
    You don’t see the difference between having a private prayer and offering students to join vs asking them to shout out “allah akbar” as a team?
    No one asked the kids to join the prayer.
    I do not see a difference.

    No one asked the kids to join but the appearance of favoritism would be obvious no matter how blatant or non blatant
    Telling vs. asking is the difference. Another coach can raise a pumpkin above his head and ask if anyone wants to join him in honoring the great pumpkin. They are protecting private speech. I agree that it will not be enforced similarly or accepted, but this precedent would protect an anthem kneeler, a devil worshiper and a muslim the same. The social out cry would definitely be different though.

    Edit: I'll also add that if the star player is atheist I doubt his playing time is affected. Could the coach harbor favoritism to the middle of the road players, possibly, but let's be real, most of these coaches would sell their soul for a winning HS football team. They are usually trying to bend every rule they can to get the best players on the field at all times. I doubt their religion will make a difference in playing time unless they play for St. Mary's Holy Angels and say fuck Jesus before the game.
    Post edited by tbergs on
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Mar-A-Lago Posts: 20,677
    mace1229 said:
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    It’s always the Cristian prayer cases. 

     I would have preferred a Muslim coach doing Muslim prayers before games and getting fired after the parents freak out and assume he is improperly using his influence to convert Christian kids to Islam and that going to the supreme court. 

    they are protecting Christian prayer, not prayer generally as it doesn’t work out that way in practice unless you are a Christian 
    if im an opposing coach i am going to have my players say allahu akbar and see if anything happens to me.
    You don’t see the difference between having a private prayer and offering students to join vs asking them to shout out “allah akbar” as a team?
    No one asked the kids to join the prayer.
    I do not see a difference.

    No one asked the kids to join but the appearance of favoritism would be obvious no matter how blatant or non blatant
    even seeing a muslim praying upsets a lot of evangelicals, never mind the fact their kids are “forced to watch it” too.  I can’t understand why seeing a Christian pray can’t also be seen as offensive.  It should be the same no matter who is doing it.  Either always acceptable or never, not one or the other 
    agreed...there are too many derivations of christianity for me to be comfortable having a fucking coach influence any of my kids. Fuck that


    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
    The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,836
    mace1229 said:
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    It’s always the Cristian prayer cases. 

     I would have preferred a Muslim coach doing Muslim prayers before games and getting fired after the parents freak out and assume he is improperly using his influence to convert Christian kids to Islam and that going to the supreme court. 

    they are protecting Christian prayer, not prayer generally as it doesn’t work out that way in practice unless you are a Christian 
    if im an opposing coach i am going to have my players say allahu akbar and see if anything happens to me.
    You don’t see the difference between having a private prayer and offering students to join vs asking them to shout out “allah akbar” as a team?
    No one asked the kids to join the prayer.
    I do not see a difference.

    No one asked the kids to join but the appearance of favoritism would be obvious no matter how blatant or non blatant
    I think the appearance of favoritism is a secondary concern compared to the violation of a free speech right.  It's a difficult decision that fundamentally comes down to whether an individual's right supersedes a perceived interest of society.  I don't think it's insane to protect individual rights first and foremost.  That is a basis of our Constitution.  
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited June 2022
    mace1229 said:
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    It’s always the Cristian prayer cases. 

     I would have preferred a Muslim coach doing Muslim prayers before games and getting fired after the parents freak out and assume he is improperly using his influence to convert Christian kids to Islam and that going to the supreme court. 

    they are protecting Christian prayer, not prayer generally as it doesn’t work out that way in practice unless you are a Christian 
    if im an opposing coach i am going to have my players say allahu akbar and see if anything happens to me.
    You don’t see the difference between having a private prayer and offering students to join vs asking them to shout out “allah akbar” as a team?
    No one asked the kids to join the prayer.
    I do not see a difference.

    No one asked the kids to join but the appearance of favoritism would be obvious no matter how blatant or non blatant
    even seeing a muslim praying upsets a lot of evangelicals, never mind the fact their kids are “forced to watch it” too.  I can’t understand why seeing a Christian pray can’t also be seen as offensive.  It should be the same no matter who is doing it.  Either always acceptable or never, not one or the other 
    agreed...there are too many derivations of christianity for me to be comfortable having a fucking coach influence any of my kids. Fuck that


    I would be more open sending my kids to a private catholic school then a public school infested with evangelical politics/religion as it’s very much combined. Your more liberal catholic schools tend to avoid a lot of the hot button topics. 

    At least I can control the kind of religion I want being openly discussed 

    seems odd to consider a religious school to avoid religion.  It’s not far off though 

    if you want a truly secular education the choices are limited 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 9,881
    mace1229 said:
    i guess it is ok to kneel on a football field to pray, but not in silent protest.
    It’s always the Cristian prayer cases. 

     I would have preferred a Muslim coach doing Muslim prayers before games and getting fired after the parents freak out and assume he is improperly using his influence to convert Christian kids to Islam and that going to the supreme court. 

    they are protecting Christian prayer, not prayer generally as it doesn’t work out that way in practice unless you are a Christian 
    if im an opposing coach i am going to have my players say allahu akbar and see if anything happens to me.
    You don’t see the difference between having a private prayer and offering students to join vs asking them to shout out “allah akbar” as a team?
    No one asked the kids to join the prayer.
    I do not see a difference.

    No one asked the kids to join but the appearance of favoritism would be obvious no matter how blatant or non blatant
    even seeing a muslim praying upsets a lot of evangelicals, never mind the fact their kids are “forced to watch it” too.  I can’t understand why seeing a Christian pray can’t also be seen as offensive.  It should be the same no matter who is doing it.  Either always acceptable or never, not one or the other 
    agreed...there are too many derivations of christianity for me to be comfortable having a fucking coach influence any of my kids. Fuck that


    Influence? If that is the fear, have a conversation about religion with your kid. They have much worse influences every day just by going to school. If you are really concerned, reach out to the coach and have a conversation about your concerns and what his intentions are. Just seems like we want to make this in to more than it needs to be because we know most conservatives would flip their shit if prayer rugs were laid out at the 50 yard line at the end of the game.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,761
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited June 2022
    if I thought it was an isolated incident I’d be fine with it 

    -Prayer in school 
    -intelligent design/creationism in science class (that’s been going on a while) certain cities in my home state takes take kids in public school to a creationism museum for a field trip… one of the ones where humans and dinosaurs live together. The earth is only 6000 years old obviously 
    -climate change isn’t happening in science classes 
    -Abstinence only sex education 
    -american exceptionalism in history class
    -true impacts of racism is illegal to teach 
    -can’t discuss sexuality 

    some schools actually teach traditional gender roles. Women belong at home etc 

    All of it starts with normalising religion, especially politicised religion in places it doesn’t belong 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,761
    Actually Hugh, incrementalism is exactly why the school moved against Coach Kennedy, because his religious rituals were expanding,

     Kennedy began his prayer ritual soon after he was hired in 2008, but the school district grew concerned when Kennedy's short, quiet prayers grew in 2015 as players began joining him on the field all while the crowd was still in the stands.”
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,761
    if I thought it was an isolated incident I’d be fine with it 

    -Prayer in school 
    -intelligent design/creationism in science class (that’s been going on a while) certain cities in my home state takes take kids in public school to a creationism museum for a field trip… one of the ones where humans and dinosaurs live together. The earth is only 6000 years old obviously 
    -climate change isn’t happening in science classes 
    -Abstinence only sex education 
    -american exceptionalism in history class
    -true impacts of racism is illegal to teach 
    -can’t discuss sexuality 

    some schools actually teach traditional gender roles. Women belong at home etc 

    All of it starts with normalising religion, especially politicised religion in places it doesn’t belong 


    And It’s far worse than normalizing religion. The coach is a community leader and this court is allowing a public prayer ritual to be performed on public property with leaders being paid for by the public

    “He insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    Is there anything more offensive? Kids who don’t want to participate in a public ritual are literally being called worse people, AND SCOTUS IS OK WITH THAT. I think the incrementalism argument just flew the coop.

    #addjudgesnow


  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,836
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,761
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
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