Are Democrats exhibiting epic fail on climate change?

Lerxst1992

brianlux said:

Lerxst1992 said:

brianlux said:

Just ran across this earlier today.  Yet another example of epic fail on the part of liberal democrat who talks the talk but doesn't walk it.  I most like Newsom, but this doesn't cut it for me.

https://biologicaldiversity.org/w/news/press-releases/new-permits-newsom-ramps-fracking-california-2020-07-06/

July 6, 2020

                                                             With New Permits, Newsom Ramps Up Fracking in California

360 New Fracking Events Approved So Far This Year

SACRAMENTO, Calif.— Gov. Gavin Newsom’s oil and gas regulatory agency has approved 12 new permits for Chevron to conduct hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, in the Lost Hills Oil Field in Kern County.

The authorizations — issued late Thursday afternoon, just before the holiday weekend — will allow Chevron to frack these wells 168 times.

“It’s outrageous that Gov. Newsom is handing out fracking permits during a pandemic that disproportionately harms polluted communities,” said Hollin Kretzmann, a senior attorney at the Center for Biological Diversity. “The governor needs to stop recklessly approving fracking and new oil and gas drilling. Instead of restarting fracking in areas already suffering from dirty air, Newsom should direct oil companies to start plugging these dangerous wells to create jobs and move us away from polluting fossil fuels.”

Unfortunately all the alternatives to fracking require much more energy to produce the gas and/or are dirtier. In cold climates, electric heat is much less efficient and oil is much dirtier to burn. Converting coal power plants to nat gas has actually reduced carbon emissions and companies have been making this investment recently because gas has been very cheap (due to abundant supply from fracking).

I have no doubt what you are saying is correct, but I don't understand the trade off which is short term economic gain for long term environmental collapse.  I don't know how that can be justified.

Forget the economics but consider  what is logistically possible for use by over a hundred million people in the next 20 years and what is the cleanest heating fuel that currently exists. Unfortunately it’s fracked nat gas. As a liberal who strongly supports environmental change, it is not fun to say that.

Geothermal has potential but to be deployed to tens of millions of households is not on the horizon just yet. Electric heat and pumps are fine where the temps stay above 32 year round but not for cold winter climates. Oil is dirtier and less efficient (means more needs to be used to get the same heat= terrible  for the environment). If we don’t frack gas we drill it in the Gulf of Mexico which is environmentally risky and would require more pipelines to the northeast, which is more bad environment policy. Or we import from overseas which requires shipping which is harmful to the earth and we have no control over the drilling methods. Which could mean we exchange fracking in PA for fracking overseas. Same earth .

Plus a big reason right now, if Biden moves against fracking he could easily lose PA, which strongly supports it. If Biden loses that state, his path to victory gets even more complicated. Considering trumps base and conservatives who don’t like trump just got energized with the terrible news this evening, democrats need to be careful about issues that will send moderate voters to trump, especially on state issues like fracking in PA.

brianlux

Lerxst1992 said:

brianlux said:

Lerxst1992 said:

brianlux said:

Just ran across this earlier today.  Yet another example of epic fail on the part of liberal democrat who talks the talk but doesn't walk it.  I most like Newsom, but this doesn't cut it for me.

https://biologicaldiversity.org/w/news/press-releases/new-permits-newsom-ramps-fracking-california-2020-07-06/

July 6, 2020

                                                             With New Permits, Newsom Ramps Up Fracking in California

360 New Fracking Events Approved So Far This Year

SACRAMENTO, Calif.— Gov. Gavin Newsom’s oil and gas regulatory agency has approved 12 new permits for Chevron to conduct hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, in the Lost Hills Oil Field in Kern County.

The authorizations — issued late Thursday afternoon, just before the holiday weekend — will allow Chevron to frack these wells 168 times.

“It’s outrageous that Gov. Newsom is handing out fracking permits during a pandemic that disproportionately harms polluted communities,” said Hollin Kretzmann, a senior attorney at the Center for Biological Diversity. “The governor needs to stop recklessly approving fracking and new oil and gas drilling. Instead of restarting fracking in areas already suffering from dirty air, Newsom should direct oil companies to start plugging these dangerous wells to create jobs and move us away from polluting fossil fuels.”

Unfortunately all the alternatives to fracking require much more energy to produce the gas and/or are dirtier. In cold climates, electric heat is much less efficient and oil is much dirtier to burn. Converting coal power plants to nat gas has actually reduced carbon emissions and companies have been making this investment recently because gas has been very cheap (due to abundant supply from fracking).

I have no doubt what you are saying is correct, but I don't understand the trade off which is short term economic gain for long term environmental collapse.  I don't know how that can be justified.

Forget the economics but consider  what is logistically possible for use by over a hundred million people in the next 20 years and what is the cleanest heating fuel that currently exists. Unfortunately it’s fracked nat gas. As a liberal who strongly supports environmental change, it is not fun to say that.

Geothermal has potential but to be deployed to tens of millions of households is not on the horizon just yet. Electric heat and pumps are fine where the temps stay above 32 year round but not for cold winter climates. Oil is dirtier and less efficient (means more needs to be used to get the same heat= terrible  for the environment). If we don’t frack gas we drill it in the Gulf of Mexico which is environmentally risky and would require more pipelines to the northeast, which is more bad environment policy. Or we import from overseas which requires shipping which is harmful to the earth and we have no control over the drilling methods. Which could mean we exchange fracking in PA for fracking overseas. Same earth .

Plus a big reason right now, if Biden moves against fracking he could easily lose PA, which strongly supports it. If Biden loses that state, his path to victory gets even more complicated. Considering trumps base and conservatives who don’t like trump just got energized with the terrible news this evening, democrats need to be careful about issues that will send moderate voters to trump, especially on state issues like fracking in PA.

I don't know any more, man.  Twenty more years in the direction we are going what's that going to look like?  Easy more me to say- I'll either be dead to too old to matter.  But the coming year still matter a lot to me.  My nephews and grandnephews and grandnieces, my godchildren, friends kids, kids of a lot of folks who post here- they will be here and have to deal with what we've created. The rest of life on earth which has great value, some would say equal in many ways.  It will still be here- some of it anyway. 

So yeah, I don't know.  I just fucking don't know anymore.   Where's a miracle when you need it?

Lerxst1992

There’s a lot we can continue to do. Solar, windmills, electric vehicles, etc. It’s an ironic truth that fracking is believed to be one of the few factors where humanity has been able to have some success reducing greenhouse gasses, because it’s led to a reduction in coal. 

Meltdown99

Isn’t California a Democratic state?  Isn’t the California  economy one of the worlds largest (top 10)?  And California is failing miserably on the environment?  How can this be?

could it be the Democrats just pay lip service to the cause.

in  Canada 🇨🇦 our Liberal Prime Minister just pays lip service to the cause.  Our PM is spendings 10 + billion on a pipeline through the Rockies to tide water in populated are in which people who live there don’t want???  He also promised Greta 2 billion trees being planted by 2030...none have been planted to date.  The 2030 Paris targets will never be hit.

Good luck.  

brianlux

Meltdown99 said:

Isn’t California a Democratic state?  Isn’t the California  economy one of the worlds largest (top 10)?  And California is failing miserably on the environment?  How can this be?

could it be the Democrats just pay lip service to the cause.

in  Canada 🇨🇦 our Liberal Prime Minister just pays lip service to the cause.  Our PM is spendings 10 + billion on a pipeline through the Rockies to tide water in populated are in which people who live there don’t want???  He also promised Greta 2 billion trees being planted by 2030...none have been planted to date.  The 2030 Paris targets will never be hit.

Good luck.  

California is a very misunderstood state.  There is a lot of rust under the green surface. 

hedonist

Meltdown99 said:

Isn’t California a Democratic state?  Isn’t the California  economy one of the worlds largest (top 10)?  And California is failing miserably on the environment?  How can this be?

could it be the Democrats just pay lip service to the cause.

in  Canada 🇨🇦 our Liberal Prime Minister just pays lip service to the cause.  Our PM is spendings 10 + billion on a pipeline through the Rockies to tide water in populated are in which people who live there don’t want???  He also promised Greta 2 billion trees being planted by 2030...none have been planted to date.  The 2030 Paris targets will never be hit.

Good luck.  

Many of ours are bought. And sold. I have little to no confidence in our governor, mayor, council members, etc. 

It’s sad and angering, and enough to make a cynic out of this native Angeleno. 

brianlux

hedonist said:

Meltdown99 said:

Isn’t California a Democratic state?  Isn’t the California  economy one of the worlds largest (top 10)?  And California is failing miserably on the environment?  How can this be?

could it be the Democrats just pay lip service to the cause.

in  Canada 🇨🇦 our Liberal Prime Minister just pays lip service to the cause.  Our PM is spendings 10 + billion on a pipeline through the Rockies to tide water in populated are in which people who live there don’t want???  He also promised Greta 2 billion trees being planted by 2030...none have been planted to date.  The 2030 Paris targets will never be hit.

Good luck.  

Many of ours are bought. And sold. I have little to no confidence in our governor, mayor, council members, etc. 

It’s sad and angering, and enough to make a cynic out of this native Angeleno. 

What can we feel confident in anymore?  Surely there are some civic leaders who are on the level? Please tell me- I'm feeling desperate that way and way too prone to despair. 

hedonist

brianlux said:

hedonist said:

Meltdown99 said:

Isn’t California a Democratic state?  Isn’t the California  economy one of the worlds largest (top 10)?  And California is failing miserably on the environment?  How can this be?

could it be the Democrats just pay lip service to the cause.

in  Canada 🇨🇦 our Liberal Prime Minister just pays lip service to the cause.  Our PM is spendings 10 + billion on a pipeline through the Rockies to tide water in populated are in which people who live there don’t want???  He also promised Greta 2 billion trees being planted by 2030...none have been planted to date.  The 2030 Paris targets will never be hit.

Good luck.  

Many of ours are bought. And sold. I have little to no confidence in our governor, mayor, council members, etc. 

It’s sad and angering, and enough to make a cynic out of this native Angeleno. 

What can we feel confident in anymore?  Surely there are some civic leaders who are on the level? Please tell me- I'm feeling desperate that way and way too prone to despair. 

Don’t look to me for that!

Years ago, I attended the funeral of a close friend’s mother. Lili Tomlin and some other notables there. So was the councilmember of that district. Right after introductions were made, he hit us up for donations.

That takes some real class...someone I sure want as a leader 🙄

brianlux

hedonist said:

brianlux said:

hedonist said:

Meltdown99 said:

Isn’t California a Democratic state?  Isn’t the California  economy one of the worlds largest (top 10)?  And California is failing miserably on the environment?  How can this be?

could it be the Democrats just pay lip service to the cause.

in  Canada 🇨🇦 our Liberal Prime Minister just pays lip service to the cause.  Our PM is spendings 10 + billion on a pipeline through the Rockies to tide water in populated are in which people who live there don’t want???  He also promised Greta 2 billion trees being planted by 2030...none have been planted to date.  The 2030 Paris targets will never be hit.

Good luck.  

Many of ours are bought. And sold. I have little to no confidence in our governor, mayor, council members, etc. 

It’s sad and angering, and enough to make a cynic out of this native Angeleno. 

What can we feel confident in anymore?  Surely there are some civic leaders who are on the level? Please tell me- I'm feeling desperate that way and way too prone to despair. 

Don’t look to me for that!

Years ago, I attended the funeral of a close friend’s mother. Lili Tomlin and some other notables there. So was the councilmember of that district. Right after introductions were made, he hit us up for donations.

That takes some real class...someone I sure want as a leader 🙄

What a bummer to have some politician do that.  I would be pissed as well.

Meltdown99

It sounds like par for the course...one side is clear they don't care and the Dems tell you they care...but their inaction says it all.  

As far as I'm concerned as long as the US continues to bloat its population then global warming wins.

More people going to California will just make matters worse, much worse.

HughFreakingDillon

how do you balance the economy with the environment when a large chunk the population is fixed to lose their homes if liberals do what is necessary but don't transition properly? and how can you transition properly with only 4 years to plan and implement? that's why these elections keep going back and forth in both countries. liberals make promises they can't afford (but are necessary changes) and the conservatives hold that over their heads ("they just tax and spend!") and people vote for next time around. and nothing changes except the bank accounts of those that support them. 

the population at large is too stupid and/or too greedy to listen to science. if it means they have to give shit up, whether it's money or their oil-guzzling vehicle, the science somehow isn't sound. if it appears that too much money has been spent and not enough results then people switch back to voting con. 

if only we collectively looked up to those that are highly educated and intelligent instead of voting for the cult of personality every time. 

brianlux

HughFreakingDillon said:

how do you balance the economy with the environment when a large chunk the population is fixed to lose their homes if liberals do what is necessary but don't transition properly? and how can you transition properly with only 4 years to plan and implement? that's why these elections keep going back and forth in both countries. liberals make promises they can't afford (but are necessary changes) and the conservatives hold that over their heads ("they just tax and spend!") and people vote for next time around. and nothing changes except the bank accounts of those that support them. 

the population at large is too stupid and/or too greedy to listen to science. if it means they have to give shit up, whether it's money or their oil-guzzling vehicle, the science somehow isn't sound. if it appears that too much money has been spent and not enough results then people switch back to voting con. 

if only we collectively looked up to those that are highly educated and intelligent instead of voting for the cult of personality every time. 

Honestly, bud, it feels like a losing battle these day (although I'm too stubborn to give up or give in to defeat).  I think the best we can hope for is for people to somehow see that scaling back our lifestyles and consuming less of the earth is best for everyone in the long run.  I'm not sure that legislation can do enough because there are too many people who will shout "no!" because their anti-science idiotic so-called "leaders" tell them to say "no".   And I think anyone who does understand the fragile state we are putting ours and others species in needs to somehow encourage others to see the sense in what we know is scientifically true.  If we can improve education that will help.  Every little bit we can do, no matter how small, makes some kind of positive difference.