Article on ticket prices

HoccapukHoccapuk Posts: 532
edited December 2019 in The Porch
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/why-concert-tickets-are-so-expensive-11577371024

Concert tickets are more expensive than ever and fans seem more than willing to pay the price.

The Rolling Stones had the highest-grossing tour across North America this year, raking in $177.8 million, according to trade magazine Pollstar. Though the British rock band played just 16 dates, a hefty price tag—tickets averaged $226.61 a pop—helped the group top the list.

Nine of the 10 highest-grossing concert tours this year had average ticket prices above $100, Pollstar reported. Over the past decade, the average ticket price for the top 100 North American tours has increased 55% to $94.83. The average gross per show more than doubled over the decade to $958,000.

The run-up comes as artists are relying more on touring for income, promoters have smartened up about pricing, and as ticketing companies are offering new technology to squeeze out scalpers and make more money the first time a ticket is sold. The high prices have caught the attention of the U.S. government, which has investigated concert promoter Live Nation Entertainment Inc. over its market power.

The boom in the live-events business fills a gap in many artists’ revenue streams. As piracy decimated recorded music sales starting in the early 2000s, artists began to rely on touring, ever more so in the past decade. Live shows account for some 75% of musicians’ income, compared with around 30% in the 1980s and 1990s, according to analysis by Alan Krueger, a Princeton University economist who died this year.

Among other things, artists and promoters are now more apt to sell their best seats for what the market will bear, something they avoided in the past either for fear of being perceived as taking advantage of loyal fans or because they didn’t know how much the public would be willing to pay.

“You have some artists who want to get the price for the ticket that consumers are willing to pay,” said David Goldberg, a former ticketing executive and now senior adviser to the growth-investing arm of private-equity firm TPG.

The shift in music consumption from physical and digital download sales to streaming has fueled the trend. Streaming—which now accounts for 80% of recorded-music consumption in the U.S., according to Nielsen Music—is helping artists reach more fans faster in markets around the world.

As artists have become more reliant on their live business, focus has turned to maximizing the income from concerts. Ticketing companies have introduced new technology to prevent scalpers from snapping up swaths of tickets and reselling them for a markup on sites like eBay Inc.’s StubHub, which recently was sold to Geneva-based Viagogo Entertainment Inc. for $4.05 billion. Such measures have helped artists capture some of the value that traditionally has flowed into the $10 billion resale market.

Airline-style dynamic pricing, offered by Live Nation subsidiary Ticketmaster and others, makes it possible to change the list prices at any time or automatically adjust them up or down based on demand.

Promoters, meanwhile, have been pricing seats higher—particularly the most desirable ones, such as those at the front of the house—and collecting more on VIP packages like meet-and-greets and merchandise that get tacked onto tickets. Taking another page from airlines’ playbooks, Live Nation has begun charging more for aisle seats at some shows—labeling them “premium aisle seats” and collecting as much as $30 more a piece.

The concert giant ended 2018 with $10.79 billion in revenue, up 11% from the prior year. Its Ticketmaster subsidiary holds an estimated 80% of the ticketing market, according to people in the concert industry.

Dynamic-pricing efforts, which Live Nation identifies as its Platinum program, put an additional $500 million in artists’ pockets in the 18 months that ended in June, Chief Executive Michael Rapino said on a conference call with Wall Street analysts. That was driven largely by an increase of more than 30% in front-of-house pricing at amphitheaters and arenas globally, added Live Nation President Joe Berchtold. The higher pricing of the best seats is often accompanied by lower prices farther from the stage.

On a subsequent analyst call, Mr. Rapino said concert tickets are still “very affordable.”

“We believe the ticket is completely still underpriced,” he said, pointing to the still-robust secondary market. “We’ll make progress with the artists to keep pricing it better.”

The Justice Department last week reached an agreement with Live Nation following allegations the company sought to strong-arm concert venues into using Ticketmaster. Live Nation denied the allegations, according to a court filing, but agreed to conditions requested by the Justice Department.

The department believes Live Nation’s conduct has violated the terms under which the government allowed the top concert promoter to merge with the dominant ticket seller in 2010. That agreement, known as a consent decree, forbid Live Nation from forcing venues that want to book the concert promoter’s tours to use Ticketmaster for those shows, and from retaliating when venues choose to use a ticketing competitor instead—conditions designed to keep consumer prices in check by preserving competition in the live-event market.

As ticket prices have risen, critics have questioned whether the settlement has worked as intended.

The new agreement will extend those conditions through 2025, and make it easier for the government to investigate and punish Live Nation for violations.


Post edited by Hoccapuk on

Comments

  • JBC7913JBC7913 Posts: 385
    Need a subscription to read it fully. 
  • Cliff notes: Greed



  • HoccapukHoccapuk Posts: 532
    Posted the text
  • JBC7913JBC7913 Posts: 385
    Hoccapuk said:
    Posted the text
    Thanks
  • JBC7913JBC7913 Posts: 385
    We as the consumer and I am the first to admit, I’d pay what I want to pay to see something I want to see. We the consumers are the ones driving the markets. No different than why MTV Unplugged PJ, is/was sold at prices it was. Alas, we’ll pay and they know it.

    Thanks for the read. 
  • PB11041PB11041 Posts: 2,805
    I know it is apples and hand grenades, but it is amazing to me that in April of 2002 I paid I believe $10 is the ticket price to see Wilco play at a tiny Chapel at Union College in Schenectady NY.  $10, there were maybe a few 100 people there, it was arguably at the cresting of their apex of awareness.  Less than 2 years later I would see them close out the year at Madison Square Garden.

    Ten.  Dollars.  

    The cash machine, is blue and green.
    His eminence has yet to show. 
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  • darthvedderdarthvedder Posts: 2,555
    Ironic this is posted to the forum of the band that has toured less and less in recent years.
  • Thanks for sharing.
    Back in 2000, paying 30€ to see Radiohead was a hard pill to swallow as most bands charged around 20€ ... 20 years later I’m nervous about not being able to secure 150€ tickets ... I am definitively part of the problem.
    2012 : Amsterdam 2
    2014 : Amsterdam 1&2, Milan, Berlin, Werchter
    2018 : Amsterdam 1&2, Pinkpop, London 1, Berlin, Werchter, London 2
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  • eboweddieeboweddie Posts: 1,004

    Ultimate VIP Package

    €1085.85

    • Standing ticket in Golden Circle with VIP riser access•Go behind the scenes & ask a select member of the GN'R crew what it takes to put an elaborate production together•Early entry into golden circle before standard ticketholders•Exclusive access to elevated VIP riser on the field with unobstructed views. Riser includes complimentary bar with beers & wine*No band members included in on-stage group photo For full package contents click here http://vipnation.eu/gunsnroses

    GNR in Dublin 2020

    i wish i wish i wish i wish, i guess it never stops
  • ZodZod Posts: 10,527
    I've definitely slowed down on my concerts.   I'm lucky enough to have seen most of my favourite bands, and my really favourite bands, I've seen them a number of times.  With ticket prices skyrocketing, it's becoming harder and harder for me to justify the ticket prices.  $150 doesn't even seem bad now.  I paid 250usd in 2016 to get pit tickets (face value, non vip) for GNR.  Paid 400usd to get side stage tix for the stones this year.   That's bucket list money right there.  Not prices I would tend to repeat.

    Given that I have to travel for shows and pay a lot for tickets.  It's very much become.. is it a saturday show so I don't need to burn vacation days? no.   fuck it, why bother.   Younger me would of been all over it.   PJ is the only band that I break that with.   They also don't charge 250 to 400usd for decent tickets.

    I do question the digital/streaming vs ticket prices.   That damage from digital happened a long time ago (15+ years ago).   Tickets already jumped up quite a bit in that area.    I think it's bands always maximizing their cash flow.  With so little rock bands (or arena/stadium calibre acts for any genres) that bands that can fill these venues know their worth.    Now getting all the revenues that were going to scalpers.
  • There should be more dynamic pricing for concert tickets.  That goes both ways, though.  If front-row seats go for four or five times the listed amount, the seats in the upper deck in the back should be sold at prices under the listed amount.  Price those at half (or less) depending on the act.
    Target Center - Jun 30, 1998
    Allstate Arena - Oct 09, 2000
    Xcel Energy Center - Jun 16, 2003
    United Center - Jun 18, 2003
    Fort William Garden - Sep 09, 2005
    Xcel Energy Center - Jun 27, 2006
    United Center - Aug 23, 2009
    Xcel Energy Center - Oct 19, 2014
    Xcel Energy Center - August 31, 2023
    Xcel Energy Center - September 2, 2023
  • ZodZod Posts: 10,527
    There should be more dynamic pricing for concert tickets.  That goes both ways, though.  If front-row seats go for four or five times the listed amount, the seats in the upper deck in the back should be sold at prices under the listed amount.  Price those at half (or less) depending on the act.
    That usually does happen.  PJ seems to be more of a rarity these days charging the same price for the whole venue.   Most other big shows I've been going too charge more for closer seats and they get cheaper the further away from the stage you are.
  • foodboyfoodboy Posts: 988
    their algorithms have figured out what the people are will to pay by monitoring after market sales sites. they have now taken those prices and charged accordingly as per each artist. as well if you ever pay attention to on sales they even raise the prices from an artist pre sale to the public sale. i have seen this numerous times. as well if a show isn't selling as well as they thought they even drop ticket prices a few days before a show. it really has become more of a monopoly than ever before. there really are only 2 major promoters today. live nation and aeg. to get great seats today you have to be extremely lucky or be reamed with vip ticket packages etc. to see you favorite band up close.  lucky i went to all the shows i did many years ago at the prices they were. was able to see so many. today i have to make choices.  bruce springsteen 1984 price 14.50  . in thirty five years peoples incomes haven't gone up 10 or 20 times or more for various concerts. something is wrong here. bands like radiohead and pearl jam are still about their fans and their art.  there are the few of a very greedy crowd.  
  • disilluziondisilluzion Posts: 1,015
    I pick and choose my shows very carefully these days. Not that long ago, I would go to any show that came to town, even if I had never heard of the band. That used to be a good way of discovering new music, but way too expensive now.
  • foodboyfoodboy Posts: 988
    used to do the same, thats how i went to hundreds of shows. not any more.
  • ZodZod Posts: 10,527
    edited December 2019
    foodboy said:
    their algorithms have figured out what the people are will to pay by monitoring after market sales sites. they have now taken those prices and charged accordingly as per each artist. as well if you ever pay attention to on sales they even raise the prices from an artist pre sale to the public sale. i have seen this numerous times. as well if a show isn't selling as well as they thought they even drop ticket prices a few days before a show. it really has become more of a monopoly than ever before. there really are only 2 major promoters today. live nation and aeg. to get great seats today you have to be extremely lucky or be reamed with vip ticket packages etc. to see you favorite band up close.  lucky i went to all the shows i did many years ago at the prices they were. was able to see so many. today i have to make choices.  bruce springsteen 1984 price 14.50  . in thirty five years peoples incomes haven't gone up 10 or 20 times or more for various concerts. something is wrong here. bands like radiohead and pearl jam are still about their fans and their art.  there are the few of a very greedy crowd.  
    I guess.  I don't think it's all from monopoly.   Scalpers/Brokers have been cashing in on bands for decades upon decades.   It used to be harder.  In the old days that meant paying people to stand in line to buy tickets.   Then you resold them for higher prices.    Then it evolved.  You have promoters selling blocks of tickets to scalpers at above face to make more money to pay bands higher guarantees.  You've also got brokers using technology (bots) to scoop up what goes to regular sale.

    The big thing is the brokers were making all that money from promoters/bands not charging market value.  New technology is letting promoters/bands maximize revenue by charging what the tickets are actually worth (or close to it).   It's great because the bands get bigger gaurantee's and it makes it harder for scalpers/brokers to do their thing.   The downside is all of us who were pretty good at getting good tickets at face value.  Now there's almost no way to get close tickets at a cheaper price :(

    I feel if there were other promoters and other ticket companies this would all still be an issue.  If you had TM offering up this technology that has licked the demand/price problem and can earn you a whole bunch more for every show you play.  Aren't going to take it?  If you've got a promoter using variable prices models offering you a $1 million guarantee instead of $600k, wouldn't you use that promoter?  I think bands were afraid to look band in the past, making ticket prices too high (hence the selling of them behind the scenes to scalpers for more than face).   I think now that it's become the norm, bands aren't afraid to ask what they're worth.

    Most bands seem to want to maximize their revenue for playing a show.   I think these sky high prices are them doing just that.   Maybe they turn a blind eye to how the promoter offers a high guarantee, but they're definitely condoning it.

    That's my thoughts.   I also feel lucky I've spent the last 20+ years going to shows.    It's always felt like prices were expensive when going to shows, but in hindsight we did amazing well (probably because my income was lower back then).   You go through my stub binders and there's so many shows from the 90s/00's in the first 10 rows, GA pits, side stage at what now seems like bargain prices.  I can only imagine what it was like in the 80s.

    My last thought, is many of the biggest selling tours (aside from a few pop acts) are old school rock acts.   Will we see a paradigm shift when the rock bands have all retired.   Will Millenial's and Gen Z feel the same way about their music to keep the whole thing going?

    Post edited by Zod on
  • eboweddieeboweddie Posts: 1,004
    I think a big reason gigs are so expensive is the days of selling 10m.cds are over so that income is gone. And has be be made up other ways. I know artists make some money from streaming etc but it's a drop.in the ocean to what they once earned from physical sales

    i wish i wish i wish i wish, i guess it never stops
  • disilluziondisilluzion Posts: 1,015
    (Most) artists have never made money from CD sales.
  • Get_RightGet_Right Posts: 12,816
    Nothing new there. 
  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 16,680
    edited December 2019
    (Most) artists have never made money from CD sales.
    Not in the last 20-25 years, but prior to that artists made the bulk of their money from record contracts/album sales and toured to break even and promote said albums to increase sales.

    For example:
    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-08-25-mn-37596-story.html
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • ZodZod Posts: 10,527
    edited December 2019
    Poncier said:
    (Most) artists have never made money from CD sales.
    Not in the last 20-25 years, but prior to that artists made the bulk of their money from record contracts/album sales and toured to break even and promote said albums to increase sales.

    For example:
    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-08-25-mn-37596-story.html
    I think bands underestimated the importance of touring back in the day.   Probably because bands made all the money from touring, and labels made money from the albums.   Labels probably pushed them to tour, to try and sell more albums.  Over the years the artists figured out where the real money is.    Especially with so few big rock bands left.   If you're stadium level band.  50000 tickets at an average of $100/pop.  Plus all the merch those 50000 people buy.    That's way more than most bands got paid on albums.    The rumour used to be a band would get about $1 for every album sold.   Now they can make that playing a few live shows.

    I think that REM deal is unique.   It's a band completing a contract while still near the top of it's game.   That gives you serious leverage.   I don't think PJ every got anything like that because by the time the Epic deal ran out, the bottom had fallen out on record sales.   Most bands didn't make nearly as much for their first 5+ albums.

    I'm kind of curious as to that REM deal worked out.   My appreciate of REM's music ends around the Monster album which came out in '95?  I don't remember much that came out after.   Did the label lose on this one?
    Post edited by Zod on
  • BK35942BK35942 Posts: 22
    There was a time when we killed our entertainers (Roman Gladiators), now we kill our selves for a $12 beer and nose bleed seats to watch millionaires play in the houses built by billionaires that we the public subsidizes.  That said...great to see a bunch of kids work hard and get paid for their music and their dreams come true---happy to go see them any time.  
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