When Does Inclusion Become Detrimental?

HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 19,201
Over the last few years, we've been noticing my oldest daughter never has homework. And we thought by this age she'd get some, at least periodically. She's (K) in grade 7. Our other daughter (S) is in grade 4. Her current grade 7 teacher tells us he has a tough time challenging her, which is fine, but I think we know why. 

When we go to parent teacher night, typically the teachers always tell us how awesome our daughters are, how studious they are, and such a pleasure to have in class, blah blah blah. I'm sure some of that is true, but honestly, teachers aren't really allowed to say anything bad about kids anymore, so who really knows. 

When K was in grade 5, her teacher was very frank with us. He told us that out of his 6 hour day of teaching, he is so busy "corralling the cats" (trying to get the disruptive kids to be engaged), he estimates that he teaches about 10-15 minutes out of every hour. He said K is one of the lucky ones, and she needs no attention and gets everything right away. But the other "average" kids suffer, because he simply has no time to give them any attention. And this is what infuriates me. 

Teachers are no longer allowed to discipline the kids (and no, I'm not talking about physically-I'm talking about detention, extra homework, etc). There are kids who literally throw chairs across the room. And all that is done is the teacher tells all the other kids to evacuate until the episode is over. Back in my day? that kid would be expelled. or at the very least suspended. Now? Let's take time away from all the other kids to let this kid blow off some steam. 

Back in the 80's when I was in elementary school, the disruptive kids were dealt with. If the school couldn't deal with it, the parents had to. Imagine that. The parents being responsible for their children. 

There's this new initiative, I don't know if it's just our province, or if it's seen in other provinces, where kids go at their own pace. There are no real deadlines. When you finish a unit, you get tested, and you move on to the next unit when you get over a certain percentage. The upside to it is if a kid is in grade 7 but at a grade 9 math level, they can do grade 9 math and actually remain engaged and challenged. The downside is, not all above-average kids have the discipline to want to stay engaged. I think that kids need structure in a working environment. During play, that is where it should unstructured to allow for exploration. 

The whole idea behind this is to make sure the struggling kids don't "fail". Failure is a foreign term these days. You don't fail, you keep trying until you pass. Which is great in concept, applicable in your personal goals, but not in professional ones. Ultimately school prepares you for the work force. That is not how the work force works. We are basically preparing kids to get fired. 

My wife went to an information session that was for the entire city to attend. School administrators, teachers, parents, etc. She was in shock at what she heard. It was supposed to start at 6pm. She got there in time, busting her ass from work and scarfing a disgusting McChicken on the way to get there on time. She gets there, sits down, and 6 comes and goes. The moderator comes to the mic and says "ok, we are going to start around 6:20, because some people are running late, because of traffic. Now, just remember, when they arrive, let's let them feel welcome, because after all, they aren't late, they are just later than us". My wife was waiting for the punchline. She was serious. And that set the tone for the evening. 

My wife asked about this new initiative, and how it prepares our kids for university/college and eventually the workforce, and if any research has been done to show this process is successful. The reply? the HOPE is that they will be fine. HOPE. The whole initiative is based on INCLUSION (a word that was parroted throughout the evening). And they wouldn't answer how this could be beneficial/detrimental to kids as they get older. So in essence, they are saying my kids are the research. And it could end up being severely detrimental to their skills as they get older. 

Later on, they moved the chairs to make 3 circles. The inner circle was for people if they wanted to speak into the microphone during a group discussion. But this was no ordinary microphone. Oh no. You were supposed to pretend you were speaking into an eagle feather, because apparently when you are speaking into an eagle feather, that means you are allowed to speak, but no one else is allowed a rebuttal, as this is a 'safe space'. My wife, again, was waiting for the punchline. 

The whole evening was just a big "safe space" meeting basically to ram it down everyone's throats that no matter who the kid is, what his abilities are, what his challenges are, how they affect his own learning, the teacher's ability to teach, and the other kids' ability to learn, are irrelevant. The most important factor in all of this is to cater to the emotional and social well being of the outliers. 

is this where society is going? I am all for giving a helping hand to those that need a hand. For example, S has a down syndrome girl in her class. She is super sweet and kind and does go at her own pace. But she doesn't disrupt the class. That's the type of inclusion I agree with. But when it's at the detriment of the entire group? This liberal concept has gone too far, in my opinion. 
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Comments

  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,480
    Regarding the meeting your wife attended- oh man, all that warm and fuzzy.  I'd be squirming in my seat and would probably would eventually stand up and say something like, "OK, can we cut the crap and get real now?"

    And the whole "no one fails'' thing is utter bullshit.  People do fail and if they can't or won't cut it academically, they should fail.  And we should recognize that not every one is the same.  A kid who shows promise in math and science should be encouraged to pursue those left brained attributes.  A kid who shows creative interests should be allowed to pursue the arts or something creative.  I'm reading Warren Zane's excellent Petty, a biography of Tom Petty.  He talks about how Petty was a really bright kid who got mostly D's and F's in school.  Thankfully, Petty had the initiative to pursue his creative interests.  And maybe when kids don't do well academically or artistically they could be guided into some kind of trade.  The main thing would be to recognize the differences and also recognizes that, unfortunately, there are always going to be kids who will fail in all ways miserably, especially if given too much rope.  If they are allowed to get away with shit like throwing a chair across a room, they could very possibly end up becoming a burden in the prison system. 

    As far as punishment and classroom behavior, the way I see it, we've gone the full arc from a time when teachers were given too much freedom to discipline harshly to not being allowed (or wanting to) use any discipline at all.  I  told the story elsewhere of my 5th grade teacher (in the '61/'62 school year) who knocked a kid out because he grabbed him by the shoulders and shook the kid so violently the kids head hit the concrete wall behind him.  The teacher was simply transferred to another school.  At the other end, you have kids like the one you mentioned (in 2019) being able to throw a chair across a room with zero consequences.  Both situations are total bullshit.

    We need to get real and recognize that all kids are not the same.  And we need to apply real, tough but humane discipline.  Not do so is a HUGE disfavor for kids growing up today.  There is so much dysfunction in the world today and the kind of thing you described above will only make it more so.
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  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 7,851
    Over the last few years, we've been noticing my oldest daughter never has homework. And we thought by this age she'd get some, at least periodically. She's (K) in grade 7. Our other daughter (S) is in grade 4. Her current grade 7 teacher tells us he has a tough time challenging her, which is fine, but I think we know why. 

    When we go to parent teacher night, typically the teachers always tell us how awesome our daughters are, how studious they are, and such a pleasure to have in class, blah blah blah. I'm sure some of that is true, but honestly, teachers aren't really allowed to say anything bad about kids anymore, so who really knows. 

    When K was in grade 5, her teacher was very frank with us. He told us that out of his 6 hour day of teaching, he is so busy "corralling the cats" (trying to get the disruptive kids to be engaged), he estimates that he teaches about 10-15 minutes out of every hour. He said K is one of the lucky ones, and she needs no attention and gets everything right away. But the other "average" kids suffer, because he simply has no time to give them any attention. And this is what infuriates me. 

    Teachers are no longer allowed to discipline the kids (and no, I'm not talking about physically-I'm talking about detention, extra homework, etc). There are kids who literally throw chairs across the room. And all that is done is the teacher tells all the other kids to evacuate until the episode is over. Back in my day? that kid would be expelled. or at the very least suspended. Now? Let's take time away from all the other kids to let this kid blow off some steam. 

    Back in the 80's when I was in elementary school, the disruptive kids were dealt with. If the school couldn't deal with it, the parents had to. Imagine that. The parents being responsible for their children. 

    There's this new initiative, I don't know if it's just our province, or if it's seen in other provinces, where kids go at their own pace. There are no real deadlines. When you finish a unit, you get tested, and you move on to the next unit when you get over a certain percentage. The upside to it is if a kid is in grade 7 but at a grade 9 math level, they can do grade 9 math and actually remain engaged and challenged. The downside is, not all above-average kids have the discipline to want to stay engaged. I think that kids need structure in a working environment. During play, that is where it should unstructured to allow for exploration. 

    The whole idea behind this is to make sure the struggling kids don't "fail". Failure is a foreign term these days. You don't fail, you keep trying until you pass. Which is great in concept, applicable in your personal goals, but not in professional ones. Ultimately school prepares you for the work force. That is not how the work force works. We are basically preparing kids to get fired. 

    My wife went to an information session that was for the entire city to attend. School administrators, teachers, parents, etc. She was in shock at what she heard. It was supposed to start at 6pm. She got there in time, busting her ass from work and scarfing a disgusting McChicken on the way to get there on time. She gets there, sits down, and 6 comes and goes. The moderator comes to the mic and says "ok, we are going to start around 6:20, because some people are running late, because of traffic. Now, just remember, when they arrive, let's let them feel welcome, because after all, they aren't late, they are just later than us". My wife was waiting for the punchline. She was serious. And that set the tone for the evening. 

    My wife asked about this new initiative, and how it prepares our kids for university/college and eventually the workforce, and if any research has been done to show this process is successful. The reply? the HOPE is that they will be fine. HOPE. The whole initiative is based on INCLUSION (a word that was parroted throughout the evening). And they wouldn't answer how this could be beneficial/detrimental to kids as they get older. So in essence, they are saying my kids are the research. And it could end up being severely detrimental to their skills as they get older. 

    Later on, they moved the chairs to make 3 circles. The inner circle was for people if they wanted to speak into the microphone during a group discussion. But this was no ordinary microphone. Oh no. You were supposed to pretend you were speaking into an eagle feather, because apparently when you are speaking into an eagle feather, that means you are allowed to speak, but no one else is allowed a rebuttal, as this is a 'safe space'. My wife, again, was waiting for the punchline. 

    The whole evening was just a big "safe space" meeting basically to ram it down everyone's throats that no matter who the kid is, what his abilities are, what his challenges are, how they affect his own learning, the teacher's ability to teach, and the other kids' ability to learn, are irrelevant. The most important factor in all of this is to cater to the emotional and social well being of the outliers. 

    is this where society is going? I am all for giving a helping hand to those that need a hand. For example, S has a down syndrome girl in her class. She is super sweet and kind and does go at her own pace. But she doesn't disrupt the class. That's the type of inclusion I agree with. But when it's at the detriment of the entire group? This liberal concept has gone too far, in my opinion. 
    I'm torn on a lot of this, but there are some portions of this that I absolutely agree about.

    1. Schools seem to be chickenshit about telling parents that their child is negatively impacting others' abilities to learn. This should be bluntly told to a parent. At that point, the parent has ample opportunities to lay down the law with their child and force a change. If the kid still doesn't listen - the kid should be punished through the obvious means like detention, suspension, expulsion. We have a family friend who told us they're no longer permitted to do detention after-hours because it could get in the way with extra-curriculars. Fuck that. Now you can have a fair punishment that actually resonates. Sucks for you that you'll have to miss hockey practice. Should've thought of that first.
    2. This 'go at your own pace' sounds incredibly flawed. You wrote about the upside and downside potential to a child, but what about the poor teacher? Teachers I know are largely 'reading up' on the next unit to remind themselves of the curriculum just before it. I can't imagine having to possess all of that knowledge for the entire year to accommodate differences in learning speed, and I certainly can't imagine being able to communicate it effectively.
    3. Our VP has a sarcastic expression that he uses from time to time that seems appropriate here - hope is not a plan. I'm shocked parents didn't go full-out mob against the moderator when she admitted that their own children are to be the guinea pigs for educational reform that's not based on any credible evidence. 
    4. Later than starting time = late. Again, I'm shocked this person wasn't booed off the stage.
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  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 19,201
    edited May 16
    benjs said:
    Over the last few years, we've been noticing my oldest daughter never has homework. And we thought by this age she'd get some, at least periodically. She's (K) in grade 7. Our other daughter (S) is in grade 4. Her current grade 7 teacher tells us he has a tough time challenging her, which is fine, but I think we know why. 

    When we go to parent teacher night, typically the teachers always tell us how awesome our daughters are, how studious they are, and such a pleasure to have in class, blah blah blah. I'm sure some of that is true, but honestly, teachers aren't really allowed to say anything bad about kids anymore, so who really knows. 

    When K was in grade 5, her teacher was very frank with us. He told us that out of his 6 hour day of teaching, he is so busy "corralling the cats" (trying to get the disruptive kids to be engaged), he estimates that he teaches about 10-15 minutes out of every hour. He said K is one of the lucky ones, and she needs no attention and gets everything right away. But the other "average" kids suffer, because he simply has no time to give them any attention. And this is what infuriates me. 

    Teachers are no longer allowed to discipline the kids (and no, I'm not talking about physically-I'm talking about detention, extra homework, etc). There are kids who literally throw chairs across the room. And all that is done is the teacher tells all the other kids to evacuate until the episode is over. Back in my day? that kid would be expelled. or at the very least suspended. Now? Let's take time away from all the other kids to let this kid blow off some steam. 

    Back in the 80's when I was in elementary school, the disruptive kids were dealt with. If the school couldn't deal with it, the parents had to. Imagine that. The parents being responsible for their children. 

    There's this new initiative, I don't know if it's just our province, or if it's seen in other provinces, where kids go at their own pace. There are no real deadlines. When you finish a unit, you get tested, and you move on to the next unit when you get over a certain percentage. The upside to it is if a kid is in grade 7 but at a grade 9 math level, they can do grade 9 math and actually remain engaged and challenged. The downside is, not all above-average kids have the discipline to want to stay engaged. I think that kids need structure in a working environment. During play, that is where it should unstructured to allow for exploration. 

    The whole idea behind this is to make sure the struggling kids don't "fail". Failure is a foreign term these days. You don't fail, you keep trying until you pass. Which is great in concept, applicable in your personal goals, but not in professional ones. Ultimately school prepares you for the work force. That is not how the work force works. We are basically preparing kids to get fired. 

    My wife went to an information session that was for the entire city to attend. School administrators, teachers, parents, etc. She was in shock at what she heard. It was supposed to start at 6pm. She got there in time, busting her ass from work and scarfing a disgusting McChicken on the way to get there on time. She gets there, sits down, and 6 comes and goes. The moderator comes to the mic and says "ok, we are going to start around 6:20, because some people are running late, because of traffic. Now, just remember, when they arrive, let's let them feel welcome, because after all, they aren't late, they are just later than us". My wife was waiting for the punchline. She was serious. And that set the tone for the evening. 

    My wife asked about this new initiative, and how it prepares our kids for university/college and eventually the workforce, and if any research has been done to show this process is successful. The reply? the HOPE is that they will be fine. HOPE. The whole initiative is based on INCLUSION (a word that was parroted throughout the evening). And they wouldn't answer how this could be beneficial/detrimental to kids as they get older. So in essence, they are saying my kids are the research. And it could end up being severely detrimental to their skills as they get older. 

    Later on, they moved the chairs to make 3 circles. The inner circle was for people if they wanted to speak into the microphone during a group discussion. But this was no ordinary microphone. Oh no. You were supposed to pretend you were speaking into an eagle feather, because apparently when you are speaking into an eagle feather, that means you are allowed to speak, but no one else is allowed a rebuttal, as this is a 'safe space'. My wife, again, was waiting for the punchline. 

    The whole evening was just a big "safe space" meeting basically to ram it down everyone's throats that no matter who the kid is, what his abilities are, what his challenges are, how they affect his own learning, the teacher's ability to teach, and the other kids' ability to learn, are irrelevant. The most important factor in all of this is to cater to the emotional and social well being of the outliers. 

    is this where society is going? I am all for giving a helping hand to those that need a hand. For example, S has a down syndrome girl in her class. She is super sweet and kind and does go at her own pace. But she doesn't disrupt the class. That's the type of inclusion I agree with. But when it's at the detriment of the entire group? This liberal concept has gone too far, in my opinion. 
    I'm torn on a lot of this, but there are some portions of this that I absolutely agree about.

    1. Schools seem to be chickenshit about telling parents that their child is negatively impacting others' abilities to learn. This should be bluntly told to a parent. At that point, the parent has ample opportunities to lay down the law with their child and force a change. If the kid still doesn't listen - the kid should be punished through the obvious means like detention, suspension, expulsion. We have a family friend who told us they're no longer permitted to do detention after-hours because it could get in the way with extra-curriculars. Fuck that. Now you can have a fair punishment that actually resonates. Sucks for you that you'll have to miss hockey practice. Should've thought of that first.
    2. This 'go at your own pace' sounds incredibly flawed. You wrote about the upside and downside potential to a child, but what about the poor teacher? Teachers I know are largely 'reading up' on the next unit to remind themselves of the curriculum just before it. I can't imagine having to possess all of that knowledge for the entire year to accommodate differences in learning speed, and I certainly can't imagine being able to communicate it effectively.
    3. Our VP has a sarcastic expression that he uses from time to time that seems appropriate here - hope is not a plan. I'm shocked parents didn't go full-out mob against the moderator when she admitted that their own children are to be the guinea pigs for educational reform that's not based on any credible evidence. 
    4. Later than starting time = late. Again, I'm shocked this person wasn't booed off the stage.
    1. a teacher friend of mine told me that her superintendent told them point blank they are not allowed to say anything negative about a child to their parents during parent teacher conferences. so she is forced to spin it in a way that seems positive, or ignore the challenges altogether. and then they turn around and blame the teacher if their child is struggling, which makes sense, since she just told them how awesome the child is. 
    2. agreed. I can't imagine being a teacher trying to keep track of all of that. 
    3. my wife told me this meeting was very school-employee-heavy, meaning mostly teachers and admin and not a ton of parents. she looked around during the odd points and actually saw most of the others nodding in agreement. 
    4. see #3. 

    I was absolutely dumbfounded the entire time she was telling me about this. 

    there was one older gentleman there, who preceded his comments with all the letters behind his name, and his view is that teaching should be administered in the same manner as going to the dentist or a lawyer: one on one. 300 kids in a school? 300 teachers. he should have been laughed out of the building. 
    Post edited by HughFreakingDillon on
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  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 19,201
    brianlux said:
    Regarding the meeting your wife attended- oh man, all that warm and fuzzy.  I'd be squirming in my seat and would probably would eventually stand up and say something like, "OK, can we cut the crap and get real now?"

    And the whole "no one fails'' thing is utter bullshit.  People do fail and if they can't or won't cut it academically, they should fail.  And we should recognize that not every one is the same.  A kid who shows promise in math and science should be encouraged to pursue those left brained attributes.  A kid who shows creative interests should be allowed to pursue the arts or something creative.  I'm reading Warren Zane's excellent Petty, a biography of Tom Petty.  He talks about how Petty was a really bright kid who got mostly D's and F's in school.  Thankfully, Petty had the initiative to pursue his creative interests.  And maybe when kids don't do well academically or artistically they could be guided into some kind of trade.  The main thing would be to recognize the differences and also recognizes that, unfortunately, there are always going to be kids who will fail in all ways miserably, especially if given too much rope.  If they are allowed to get away with shit like throwing a chair across a room, they could very possibly end up becoming a burden in the prison system. 

    As far as punishment and classroom behavior, the way I see it, we've gone the full arc from a time when teachers were given too much freedom to discipline harshly to not being allowed (or wanting to) use any discipline at all.  I  told the story elsewhere of my 5th grade teacher (in the '61/'62 school year) who knocked a kid out because he grabbed him by the shoulders and shook the kid so violently the kids head hit the concrete wall behind him.  The teacher was simply transferred to another school.  At the other end, you have kids like the one you mentioned (in 2019) being able to throw a chair across a room with zero consequences.  Both situations are total bullshit.

    We need to get real and recognize that all kids are not the same.  And we need to apply real, tough but humane discipline.  Not do so is a HUGE disfavor for kids growing up today.  There is so much dysfunction in the world today and the kind of thing you described above will only make it more so.
    exactly the same thing I said to my wife last night: we are not all equal. there are folks much smarter than me, and folks I'm a lot smarter than. I accept that. society should too. we are all created equal in the eyes of the law, but not when it comes to ability. that's just nonsense. 
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  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 7,260
    I worked for 25 years for the school board.  Not as a teacher, but teachers talk and like to air their grievances...these problems being mentioned really start with the government...teachers just follow the orders.  I remember a particular teacher I am friends with, he gave a student 0 for the year because the student only attended a dozen or so classes...the administration told him to change the grade to 40% so the student had the option of attending summer school...If I knew not attending classes from September-June and only had to attend summer school for 6 weeks and still my credit...lol...to me that's fucked up.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 19,201
    I worked for 25 years for the school board.  Not as a teacher, but teachers talk and like to air their grievances...these problems being mentioned really start with the government...teachers just follow the orders.  I remember a particular teacher I am friends with, he gave a student 0 for the year because the student only attended a dozen or so classes...the administration told him to change the grade to 40% so the student had the option of attending summer school...If I knew not attending classes from September-June and only had to attend summer school for 6 weeks and still my credit...lol...to me that's fucked up.
    I did mention to my wife that these policies most likely start from the education minister, yes, but for some reason (from my wife's perception from last night of all the nodding heads) was that most of them agree with these policies. but the ones I've spoken to in person don't. so I'm not sure if there is a consensus either way or not. 
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  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 9,734
    1st thing i got out of the OP's comments was the meeting starting late.  that is my biggest pet peeve. I have very low tolerance for lateness. I get sometimes life gets in the way, but in general lateness should be unacceptable.  Maybe not everyone can achieve the same but everyone can show up on time except in extreme cases where something gets in the way.

    secondly how can you appreciate success if you've never failed?  yes struggling sucks especially at a young age but it teaches so many great lessons to struggle/get knocked down and to get back up and achieve.  I can't imagine going through life being passed along and never being told something negative. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 19,201
    pjhawks said:
    1st thing i got out of the OP's comments was the meeting starting late.  that is my biggest pet peeve. I have very low tolerance for lateness. I get sometimes life gets in the way, but in general lateness should be unacceptable.  Maybe not everyone can achieve the same but everyone can show up on time except in extreme cases where something gets in the way.

    secondly how can you appreciate success if you've never failed?  yes struggling sucks especially at a young age but it teaches so many great lessons to struggle/get knocked down and to get back up and achieve.  I can't imagine going through life being passed along and never being told something negative. 
    absolutely. on a smaller level, when my kids were in baseball and soccer, at the end of the season everyone got medals or trophies. I found that odd. it made them think they won something, when they didn't. if it's non-competitive, where they don't even keep score to spare everyone's feelings, why give everyone the impression that they won? it's a confusing message to give to kids. I remember my youngest even asking me how we know we won the trophy if they don't keep score? kids are smarter and more in-tune that many adults give them credit for. are there going to be kids that are sad they lost? of course. just like we're sad/frustrated as adults when we lose. but not teaching them this at a young age will not help them as they get older and have to go through those emotions as an adult and not knowing how to deal with them in a mature and appropriate way. 

    not everyone is a winner. not by a long shot. I'm glad I didn't grow up thinking i was athlete of the year. I would have been devastated to find out the truth as a young adult. 
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  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 9,734
    pjhawks said:
    1st thing i got out of the OP's comments was the meeting starting late.  that is my biggest pet peeve. I have very low tolerance for lateness. I get sometimes life gets in the way, but in general lateness should be unacceptable.  Maybe not everyone can achieve the same but everyone can show up on time except in extreme cases where something gets in the way.

    secondly how can you appreciate success if you've never failed?  yes struggling sucks especially at a young age but it teaches so many great lessons to struggle/get knocked down and to get back up and achieve.  I can't imagine going through life being passed along and never being told something negative. 
    absolutely. on a smaller level, when my kids were in baseball and soccer, at the end of the season everyone got medals or trophies. I found that odd. it made them think they won something, when they didn't. if it's non-competitive, where they don't even keep score to spare everyone's feelings, why give everyone the impression that they won? it's a confusing message to give to kids. I remember my youngest even asking me how we know we won the trophy if they don't keep score? kids are smarter and more in-tune that many adults give them credit for. are there going to be kids that are sad they lost? of course. just like we're sad/frustrated as adults when we lose. but not teaching them this at a young age will not help them as they get older and have to go through those emotions as an adult and not knowing how to deal with them in a mature and appropriate way. 

    not everyone is a winner. not by a long shot. I'm glad I didn't grow up thinking i was athlete of the year. I would have been devastated to find out the truth as a young adult. 
    as someone big into sports the whole 'everyone gets a trophy' thing has always baffled and annoyed me. Agree on the kids being more in tune than the parents. kids know who won. kids know who the smart kids are.  we don't give kids enough credit.  kids are (mostly) resilient and can adjust and move on more quickly than the parents. i've seen parents brood over a kid losing a game far more than most kids do.

    as the OP stated as well. we are not preparing kids for the work force by allowing them to move on without achieving or thinking bad work is acceptable.


  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 7,851
    pjhawks said:
    pjhawks said:
    1st thing i got out of the OP's comments was the meeting starting late.  that is my biggest pet peeve. I have very low tolerance for lateness. I get sometimes life gets in the way, but in general lateness should be unacceptable.  Maybe not everyone can achieve the same but everyone can show up on time except in extreme cases where something gets in the way.

    secondly how can you appreciate success if you've never failed?  yes struggling sucks especially at a young age but it teaches so many great lessons to struggle/get knocked down and to get back up and achieve.  I can't imagine going through life being passed along and never being told something negative. 
    absolutely. on a smaller level, when my kids were in baseball and soccer, at the end of the season everyone got medals or trophies. I found that odd. it made them think they won something, when they didn't. if it's non-competitive, where they don't even keep score to spare everyone's feelings, why give everyone the impression that they won? it's a confusing message to give to kids. I remember my youngest even asking me how we know we won the trophy if they don't keep score? kids are smarter and more in-tune that many adults give them credit for. are there going to be kids that are sad they lost? of course. just like we're sad/frustrated as adults when we lose. but not teaching them this at a young age will not help them as they get older and have to go through those emotions as an adult and not knowing how to deal with them in a mature and appropriate way. 

    not everyone is a winner. not by a long shot. I'm glad I didn't grow up thinking i was athlete of the year. I would have been devastated to find out the truth as a young adult. 
    as someone big into sports the whole 'everyone gets a trophy' thing has always baffled and annoyed me. Agree on the kids being more in tune than the parents. kids know who won. kids know who the smart kids are.  we don't give kids enough credit.  kids are (mostly) resilient and can adjust and move on more quickly than the parents. i've seen parents brood over a kid losing a game far more than most kids do.

    as the OP stated as well. we are not preparing kids for the work force by allowing them to move on without achieving or thinking bad work is acceptable.


    Also, this everyone's a winner - it's not even something the losers believe! I was that kid who failed at t-ball (the end of my short-lived sports career), so when I got a participation trophy, I knew damn well what that meant.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 12,230
    pjhawks said:
    pjhawks said:
    1st thing i got out of the OP's comments was the meeting starting late.  that is my biggest pet peeve. I have very low tolerance for lateness. I get sometimes life gets in the way, but in general lateness should be unacceptable.  Maybe not everyone can achieve the same but everyone can show up on time except in extreme cases where something gets in the way.

    secondly how can you appreciate success if you've never failed?  yes struggling sucks especially at a young age but it teaches so many great lessons to struggle/get knocked down and to get back up and achieve.  I can't imagine going through life being passed along and never being told something negative. 
    absolutely. on a smaller level, when my kids were in baseball and soccer, at the end of the season everyone got medals or trophies. I found that odd. it made them think they won something, when they didn't. if it's non-competitive, where they don't even keep score to spare everyone's feelings, why give everyone the impression that they won? it's a confusing message to give to kids. I remember my youngest even asking me how we know we won the trophy if they don't keep score? kids are smarter and more in-tune that many adults give them credit for. are there going to be kids that are sad they lost? of course. just like we're sad/frustrated as adults when we lose. but not teaching them this at a young age will not help them as they get older and have to go through those emotions as an adult and not knowing how to deal with them in a mature and appropriate way. 

    not everyone is a winner. not by a long shot. I'm glad I didn't grow up thinking i was athlete of the year. I would have been devastated to find out the truth as a young adult. 
    as someone big into sports the whole 'everyone gets a trophy' thing has always baffled and annoyed me. Agree on the kids being more in tune than the parents. kids know who won. kids know who the smart kids are.  we don't give kids enough credit.  kids are (mostly) resilient and can adjust and move on more quickly than the parents. i've seen parents brood over a kid losing a game far more than most kids do.

    as the OP stated as well. we are not preparing kids for the work force by allowing them to move on without achieving or thinking bad work is acceptable.


    Is that really what we should be aspiring to, though? 
    I think the course correction has gone off the rails completely, but we don't want to return to the "produce docile factory-puppets" mentality that education had for so long, do we?
    There is a middle ground there, we just slipped past it a few years ago.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 9,734
    rgambs said:
    pjhawks said:
    pjhawks said:
    1st thing i got out of the OP's comments was the meeting starting late.  that is my biggest pet peeve. I have very low tolerance for lateness. I get sometimes life gets in the way, but in general lateness should be unacceptable.  Maybe not everyone can achieve the same but everyone can show up on time except in extreme cases where something gets in the way.

    secondly how can you appreciate success if you've never failed?  yes struggling sucks especially at a young age but it teaches so many great lessons to struggle/get knocked down and to get back up and achieve.  I can't imagine going through life being passed along and never being told something negative. 
    absolutely. on a smaller level, when my kids were in baseball and soccer, at the end of the season everyone got medals or trophies. I found that odd. it made them think they won something, when they didn't. if it's non-competitive, where they don't even keep score to spare everyone's feelings, why give everyone the impression that they won? it's a confusing message to give to kids. I remember my youngest even asking me how we know we won the trophy if they don't keep score? kids are smarter and more in-tune that many adults give them credit for. are there going to be kids that are sad they lost? of course. just like we're sad/frustrated as adults when we lose. but not teaching them this at a young age will not help them as they get older and have to go through those emotions as an adult and not knowing how to deal with them in a mature and appropriate way. 

    not everyone is a winner. not by a long shot. I'm glad I didn't grow up thinking i was athlete of the year. I would have been devastated to find out the truth as a young adult. 
    as someone big into sports the whole 'everyone gets a trophy' thing has always baffled and annoyed me. Agree on the kids being more in tune than the parents. kids know who won. kids know who the smart kids are.  we don't give kids enough credit.  kids are (mostly) resilient and can adjust and move on more quickly than the parents. i've seen parents brood over a kid losing a game far more than most kids do.

    as the OP stated as well. we are not preparing kids for the work force by allowing them to move on without achieving or thinking bad work is acceptable.


    Is that really what we should be aspiring to, though? 
    I think the course correction has gone off the rails completely, but we don't want to return to the "produce docile factory-puppets" mentality that education had for so long, do we?
    There is a middle ground there, we just slipped past it a few years ago.
    yes.  the job of education is to give people knowledge and skills to survive and thrive in an adult society. giving people passing grades for failure to do work and/or showing up on time teaches zero life skills. not every day is sunshine and roses. seems like we want every child to have sunshine and roses every day these days. it doesn't work that way. life can kick you in the ass and you need to learn the skills to get back up when it does.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 19,201
    rgambs said:
    pjhawks said:
    pjhawks said:
    1st thing i got out of the OP's comments was the meeting starting late.  that is my biggest pet peeve. I have very low tolerance for lateness. I get sometimes life gets in the way, but in general lateness should be unacceptable.  Maybe not everyone can achieve the same but everyone can show up on time except in extreme cases where something gets in the way.

    secondly how can you appreciate success if you've never failed?  yes struggling sucks especially at a young age but it teaches so many great lessons to struggle/get knocked down and to get back up and achieve.  I can't imagine going through life being passed along and never being told something negative. 
    absolutely. on a smaller level, when my kids were in baseball and soccer, at the end of the season everyone got medals or trophies. I found that odd. it made them think they won something, when they didn't. if it's non-competitive, where they don't even keep score to spare everyone's feelings, why give everyone the impression that they won? it's a confusing message to give to kids. I remember my youngest even asking me how we know we won the trophy if they don't keep score? kids are smarter and more in-tune that many adults give them credit for. are there going to be kids that are sad they lost? of course. just like we're sad/frustrated as adults when we lose. but not teaching them this at a young age will not help them as they get older and have to go through those emotions as an adult and not knowing how to deal with them in a mature and appropriate way. 

    not everyone is a winner. not by a long shot. I'm glad I didn't grow up thinking i was athlete of the year. I would have been devastated to find out the truth as a young adult. 
    as someone big into sports the whole 'everyone gets a trophy' thing has always baffled and annoyed me. Agree on the kids being more in tune than the parents. kids know who won. kids know who the smart kids are.  we don't give kids enough credit.  kids are (mostly) resilient and can adjust and move on more quickly than the parents. i've seen parents brood over a kid losing a game far more than most kids do.

    as the OP stated as well. we are not preparing kids for the work force by allowing them to move on without achieving or thinking bad work is acceptable.


    Is that really what we should be aspiring to, though? 
    I think the course correction has gone off the rails completely, but we don't want to return to the "produce docile factory-puppets" mentality that education had for so long, do we?
    There is a middle ground there, we just slipped past it a few years ago.
    we're not returning to producing docile factory puppets. it's about teaching them the skills to do whatever they want in life. but the way this is going, it's teaching them nothing but entitlement. my boss won't allow me to hand in a report whenever my ability allows me to. I send out reports to the entire corp every week and if I don't get it done by the deadline, the executive team is barking at my door. literally no job works like that. and this is what we're doing, to preserve their precious feelings. 
    Headstones and Watchmen Fan Boy
  • riotgrlriotgrl LOUISVILLEPosts: 1,872
    I agree with much of what you said but as a teacher, I can tell you that many of our students have suffered an immense amount of trauma.  Many of them go home to unsafe neighborhoods with little or no support at home and probably suffer some level of abuse on many nights.  A lot of those kids are the ones causing the problems and they need more attention than what I can give.  We need to build additional schools and create smaller classrooms that incorporate job skill training and intensive mental health counseling and anything else that will help break the cycle of poverty, drug/alcohol abuse, and poor/broken families.  But this requires government funding which will never happen because we (in the US) cannot have one policy and one funding mechanism for the nation as a whole.  The US is lagging behind in so many ways, in part, because there is no cohesiveness amongst the nation, meaning the states have to much say over policy which means we see widely divergent outcomes regarding education, sex ed., income levels, etc.

    Second, I have a lot of 'good' kids from 'good' families that are also significant problems.  They are enabled by their parents to continue their disruptive behavior because "their kid would never act like that".  The reality is many parents refuse to see their child the way they really are and many have checked out and pretend to not know what their kids are doing. The number of kids doing drugs is mind-blowing.  These are good kids, smart kids, who have loving, caring families.  They are high every day while at school.  We can't catch them anymore because they use DAB pens to smoke weed and it produces no smell.  Unless we can get drug-sniffing dogs into the building it's next to impossible to prove.  Hell, I've got a kid who is high most of the time and we have been honest with his mom and she doesn't care because SHE GETS HIGH WITH HIM.  

    Not sure the answer to some of this but I would say having REALISTIC policies that help kids would be a start.  Abstinence-only education doesn't work.  Free access to birth control would help.  Being honest with kids about drugs, social media, sex is necessary BUT we can't do that because many parents believe that teachers are indoctrinating their kids or encouraging behavior when the reality is they have no clue what their kids are doing.  I would love to be that honest with a parent but, as you stated, it is not permissible because parents that have access to a lawyer will make sure to sue anyone who believes their child could do any wrong.  The only ones that do wrong are other peoples kids, apparently.  

    In the US, the parents that could, and should, be helping simply leave for private and charter schools so they can protect their own kids with little thought to anyone else.  Don't get me wrong, I get it.  I want the best for my kids and, absolutely, they come first but when do we start caring for our neighbors? Our country is so focused on the individual with little thought for the common good and the general welfare that we seem to forget, or ignore, that we, society, will suffer the consequences of our apathy, our neglect, our selfishness at some point.
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 19,201
    riotgrl said:
    I agree with much of what you said but as a teacher, I can tell you that many of our students have suffered an immense amount of trauma.  Many of them go home to unsafe neighborhoods with little or no support at home and probably suffer some level of abuse on many nights.  A lot of those kids are the ones causing the problems and they need more attention than what I can give.  We need to build additional schools and create smaller classrooms that incorporate job skill training and intensive mental health counseling and anything else that will help break the cycle of poverty, drug/alcohol abuse, and poor/broken families.  But this requires government funding which will never happen because we (in the US) cannot have one policy and one funding mechanism for the nation as a whole.  The US is lagging behind in so many ways, in part, because there is no cohesiveness amongst the nation, meaning the states have to much say over policy which means we see widely divergent outcomes regarding education, sex ed., income levels, etc.

    Second, I have a lot of 'good' kids from 'good' families that are also significant problems.  They are enabled by their parents to continue their disruptive behavior because "their kid would never act like that".  The reality is many parents refuse to see their child the way they really are and many have checked out and pretend to not know what their kids are doing. The number of kids doing drugs is mind-blowing.  These are good kids, smart kids, who have loving, caring families.  They are high every day while at school.  We can't catch them anymore because they use DAB pens to smoke weed and it produces no smell.  Unless we can get drug-sniffing dogs into the building it's next to impossible to prove.  Hell, I've got a kid who is high most of the time and we have been honest with his mom and she doesn't care because SHE GETS HIGH WITH HIM.  

    Not sure the answer to some of this but I would say having REALISTIC policies that help kids would be a start.  Abstinence-only education doesn't work.  Free access to birth control would help.  Being honest with kids about drugs, social media, sex is necessary BUT we can't do that because many parents believe that teachers are indoctrinating their kids or encouraging behavior when the reality is they have no clue what their kids are doing.  I would love to be that honest with a parent but, as you stated, it is not permissible because parents that have access to a lawyer will make sure to sue anyone who believes their child could do any wrong.  The only ones that do wrong are other peoples kids, apparently.  

    In the US, the parents that could, and should, be helping simply leave for private and charter schools so they can protect their own kids with little thought to anyone else.  Don't get me wrong, I get it.  I want the best for my kids and, absolutely, they come first but when do we start caring for our neighbors? Our country is so focused on the individual with little thought for the common good and the general welfare that we seem to forget, or ignore, that we, society, will suffer the consequences of our apathy, our neglect, our selfishness at some point.
    and it's not a teacher's job, in my opinion, to deal with that trauma. those kids should be in counselling. Maybe a teaching/counselling class hybrid or something. I don't know the answer. But I know 100% inclusion isn't it. 
    Headstones and Watchmen Fan Boy
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,480
    benjs said:
    pjhawks said:
    pjhawks said:
    1st thing i got out of the OP's comments was the meeting starting late.  that is my biggest pet peeve. I have very low tolerance for lateness. I get sometimes life gets in the way, but in general lateness should be unacceptable.  Maybe not everyone can achieve the same but everyone can show up on time except in extreme cases where something gets in the way.

    secondly how can you appreciate success if you've never failed?  yes struggling sucks especially at a young age but it teaches so many great lessons to struggle/get knocked down and to get back up and achieve.  I can't imagine going through life being passed along and never being told something negative. 
    absolutely. on a smaller level, when my kids were in baseball and soccer, at the end of the season everyone got medals or trophies. I found that odd. it made them think they won something, when they didn't. if it's non-competitive, where they don't even keep score to spare everyone's feelings, why give everyone the impression that they won? it's a confusing message to give to kids. I remember my youngest even asking me how we know we won the trophy if they don't keep score? kids are smarter and more in-tune that many adults give them credit for. are there going to be kids that are sad they lost? of course. just like we're sad/frustrated as adults when we lose. but not teaching them this at a young age will not help them as they get older and have to go through those emotions as an adult and not knowing how to deal with them in a mature and appropriate way. 

    not everyone is a winner. not by a long shot. I'm glad I didn't grow up thinking i was athlete of the year. I would have been devastated to find out the truth as a young adult. 
    as someone big into sports the whole 'everyone gets a trophy' thing has always baffled and annoyed me. Agree on the kids being more in tune than the parents. kids know who won. kids know who the smart kids are.  we don't give kids enough credit.  kids are (mostly) resilient and can adjust and move on more quickly than the parents. i've seen parents brood over a kid losing a game far more than most kids do.

    as the OP stated as well. we are not preparing kids for the work force by allowing them to move on without achieving or thinking bad work is acceptable.


    Also, this everyone's a winner - it's not even something the losers believe! I was that kid who failed at t-ball (the end of my short-lived sports career), so when I got a participation trophy, I knew damn well what that meant.
    Exactly, Ben.  That kid of false reward only makes the giver look bad and phony.  And really, it's kind of an insult.
    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong"
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 7,851
    brianlux said:
    benjs said:
    pjhawks said:
    pjhawks said:
    1st thing i got out of the OP's comments was the meeting starting late.  that is my biggest pet peeve. I have very low tolerance for lateness. I get sometimes life gets in the way, but in general lateness should be unacceptable.  Maybe not everyone can achieve the same but everyone can show up on time except in extreme cases where something gets in the way.

    secondly how can you appreciate success if you've never failed?  yes struggling sucks especially at a young age but it teaches so many great lessons to struggle/get knocked down and to get back up and achieve.  I can't imagine going through life being passed along and never being told something negative. 
    absolutely. on a smaller level, when my kids were in baseball and soccer, at the end of the season everyone got medals or trophies. I found that odd. it made them think they won something, when they didn't. if it's non-competitive, where they don't even keep score to spare everyone's feelings, why give everyone the impression that they won? it's a confusing message to give to kids. I remember my youngest even asking me how we know we won the trophy if they don't keep score? kids are smarter and more in-tune that many adults give them credit for. are there going to be kids that are sad they lost? of course. just like we're sad/frustrated as adults when we lose. but not teaching them this at a young age will not help them as they get older and have to go through those emotions as an adult and not knowing how to deal with them in a mature and appropriate way. 

    not everyone is a winner. not by a long shot. I'm glad I didn't grow up thinking i was athlete of the year. I would have been devastated to find out the truth as a young adult. 
    as someone big into sports the whole 'everyone gets a trophy' thing has always baffled and annoyed me. Agree on the kids being more in tune than the parents. kids know who won. kids know who the smart kids are.  we don't give kids enough credit.  kids are (mostly) resilient and can adjust and move on more quickly than the parents. i've seen parents brood over a kid losing a game far more than most kids do.

    as the OP stated as well. we are not preparing kids for the work force by allowing them to move on without achieving or thinking bad work is acceptable.


    Also, this everyone's a winner - it's not even something the losers believe! I was that kid who failed at t-ball (the end of my short-lived sports career), so when I got a participation trophy, I knew damn well what that meant.
    Exactly, Ben.  That kid of false reward only makes the giver look bad and phony.  And really, it's kind of an insult.
    It also saves time. Recognizing what you aren't and stepping away from that is an important part of discovering what you are, and time is a non-renewable resource.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • riotgrlriotgrl LOUISVILLEPosts: 1,872
    riotgrl said:
    I agree with much of what you said but as a teacher, I can tell you that many of our students have suffered an immense amount of trauma.  Many of them go home to unsafe neighborhoods with little or no support at home and probably suffer some level of abuse on many nights.  A lot of those kids are the ones causing the problems and they need more attention than what I can give.  We need to build additional schools and create smaller classrooms that incorporate job skill training and intensive mental health counseling and anything else that will help break the cycle of poverty, drug/alcohol abuse, and poor/broken families.  But this requires government funding which will never happen because we (in the US) cannot have one policy and one funding mechanism for the nation as a whole.  The US is lagging behind in so many ways, in part, because there is no cohesiveness amongst the nation, meaning the states have to much say over policy which means we see widely divergent outcomes regarding education, sex ed., income levels, etc.

    Second, I have a lot of 'good' kids from 'good' families that are also significant problems.  They are enabled by their parents to continue their disruptive behavior because "their kid would never act like that".  The reality is many parents refuse to see their child the way they really are and many have checked out and pretend to not know what their kids are doing. The number of kids doing drugs is mind-blowing.  These are good kids, smart kids, who have loving, caring families.  They are high every day while at school.  We can't catch them anymore because they use DAB pens to smoke weed and it produces no smell.  Unless we can get drug-sniffing dogs into the building it's next to impossible to prove.  Hell, I've got a kid who is high most of the time and we have been honest with his mom and she doesn't care because SHE GETS HIGH WITH HIM.  

    Not sure the answer to some of this but I would say having REALISTIC policies that help kids would be a start.  Abstinence-only education doesn't work.  Free access to birth control would help.  Being honest with kids about drugs, social media, sex is necessary BUT we can't do that because many parents believe that teachers are indoctrinating their kids or encouraging behavior when the reality is they have no clue what their kids are doing.  I would love to be that honest with a parent but, as you stated, it is not permissible because parents that have access to a lawyer will make sure to sue anyone who believes their child could do any wrong.  The only ones that do wrong are other peoples kids, apparently.  

    In the US, the parents that could, and should, be helping simply leave for private and charter schools so they can protect their own kids with little thought to anyone else.  Don't get me wrong, I get it.  I want the best for my kids and, absolutely, they come first but when do we start caring for our neighbors? Our country is so focused on the individual with little thought for the common good and the general welfare that we seem to forget, or ignore, that we, society, will suffer the consequences of our apathy, our neglect, our selfishness at some point.
    and it's not a teacher's job, in my opinion, to deal with that trauma. those kids should be in counselling. Maybe a teaching/counselling class hybrid or something. I don't know the answer. But I know 100% inclusion isn't it. 
    Maybe not but MOSTLY inclusion IS a good thing.  It teaches kids and teachers empathy and understanding which is sorely lacking in the world today.  My son has an auditory processing disorder, a kind of auditory dyslexia, if you will.  He learns just fine, slower than everyone else because he has to 'interpret' everything which takes him twice as long to do, but he eventually gets it.  Thirty years ago he would have been labeled as slow and put in an isolated classroom.  The world can't revolve around the 'winners'.  School is created for easily teachable kids and we are struggling now to create an environment that will meet the needs of all kids but schools get NO support to do that.  ALL kids deserve a GOOD education that meets their needs.  That won't happen until we lower class sizes for all kids.  Your kids are smart and don't need much guidance but wouldn't it be great if they could excel at a much faster pace?  That's meeting the needs of all not just some of them. 
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • deadendpdeadendp Northeast OhioPosts: 8,275
    My daughter was born crack positive.  She is a beautiful, wonderful and hardworking kiddo who does not pick up and learn in the same way as others.  The status of crack positive at birth was as a result of a homeless, drug addicted prostitute she has as a biological mother.  She isn't completely in the land of inclusion, but she does have a 504 Plan in place. (I don't know what the Canadian equivalent would be.) She has some issues that we have tried to address.  Test taking anxiety is the reason for the 504.  We have had teachers approach us to tell us that they see that the struggle for her is very real, as is (apparently) the struggle for 100+ children with the same 504 Plan at my daughter's high school.  (Total student population across 4 grades is 2200.)  My daughter's issues are anxiety driven and not behavioral in nature.  

    Do you believe that my daughter isn't good enough to sit in class with your smarter-than-average children because she has some issues?  My hope is that your answer is no.  

    We have gone with whatever classes the educators have suggested.  We have had our daughter in therapy for nearly 2 years.  We help her study.  Her teachers will e-mail.  (We have gotten e-mails and calls of concern.  Believe me, not all were shining, especially in 6th grade where my kid just gave up. So believe it or not, there are teachers who will not just speak highly of your child.)  She has had teachers give her opportunities to retake tests.  There are parameters.  The biology test that she just did a retake on a few weeks ago bombed worse than the original, but the teacher sent her a message telling her how proud she was for giving it another try and though it didn't change the grade, she appreciated K's dedication to giving it another go.  

    K hummed along and did fine up through 4th grade.  Yes, there were struggles, but they were manageable.  She had extra math help.  She was in a large class with every single behavioral problem in the 4th grade + all of the SpEd kids in that grade and a helper.  I swear that her teacher walked on water.  K worked hard, got straight A's and learned more that year than any other year.  Can you believe it all happened in a class that was 29 children that included 3 SpEd and 5 major behavioral problems?  Why yes, inclusion hard at work and showing the children to work together, appreciate abilities and to help those who need help, the teacher did re-teaching and it was a most polite class.  I would hate to think that my daughter would have missed out on that experience because it involved over 25% of a class of non-traditional learners.  

    As with @riotgrl , I agree that all children deserve a good education.  Not all of our kids can just absorb.  So many things go on in a child's life that are not their fault.  Again, as RG said, there are factors far beyond their control.  I cannot tell you how many children are sent home with food bags for the weekend.  Even just hunger alone can cause a host of problems with kids.  

    I am hoping that children who need extra help, inclusion . . . supports aren't looked at as a drain on the system, taking away from other children . . . These kids need to be grabbed up, loved on and given a way.  We have them with us now and can try to train them up in a way to live a productive life.  Perhaps life, parents, location . . . fail them, but we cannot.  Inclusion, for whatever reason it is called for, is a benefit to us all. Later on in life, people complain that people are just a drain on society.  Perhaps if we would have given them a bit more when we had them in the education system, maybe that would be enough to nudge them out of the nest at the end of high school and watch them fly.  
    2014: Cincinnati
    2016: Lexington and Wrigley 1
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 19,201
    edited May 31
    I thought I was clear I am absolutely for inclusion of kids who have learning challenges. I was talking mainly about kids with behavioral issues (mainly that border on or include violent outbursts) that consistently disrupt the class and cause the other kids stress. 

    I don't think it's fair that my kids have to learn in an environment where violence is treated as just another daily occurrence to deal with. my kids are ok with it, it seems (possibly desensitized), but maybe other kids are super stressed about it. i don't know. 

    i was also referring to this new initiative of letting kids go at their own pace. I'm concerned about it, as it is new, barely any research has been done, it's pretty much all theory. It could work out great for everyone, it could be great for one specific group, or it could be a failure across the board. we won't know. and that's what makes us nervous about it. 

    as i said, there is a Downs Syndrome girl in my youngest daughter's class, and she is an absolute delight. I get tears in my eyes when I watch the joy in her face when she performs with the other kids at school plays and reads things during presentations, etc. She is an angel and I think, as you have said, teaches kids a great deal about empathy. She absolutely belongs with the other kids. 

    Sorry if that wasn't clear, but I thought it was. 
    Post edited by HughFreakingDillon on
    Headstones and Watchmen Fan Boy
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 19,201
    edited May 31
    and this morning, as i was sitting in my van at the school waiting for my wife to come out, the principal came out of his office, walked to my van, and proceeded to thank me repeatedly for my comments regarding the kids who require more challenges and how we also need to address that. 
    Post edited by HughFreakingDillon on
    Headstones and Watchmen Fan Boy
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 19,201
    riotgrl said:
    riotgrl said:
    I agree with much of what you said but as a teacher, I can tell you that many of our students have suffered an immense amount of trauma.  Many of them go home to unsafe neighborhoods with little or no support at home and probably suffer some level of abuse on many nights.  A lot of those kids are the ones causing the problems and they need more attention than what I can give.  We need to build additional schools and create smaller classrooms that incorporate job skill training and intensive mental health counseling and anything else that will help break the cycle of poverty, drug/alcohol abuse, and poor/broken families.  But this requires government funding which will never happen because we (in the US) cannot have one policy and one funding mechanism for the nation as a whole.  The US is lagging behind in so many ways, in part, because there is no cohesiveness amongst the nation, meaning the states have to much say over policy which means we see widely divergent outcomes regarding education, sex ed., income levels, etc.

    Second, I have a lot of 'good' kids from 'good' families that are also significant problems.  They are enabled by their parents to continue their disruptive behavior because "their kid would never act like that".  The reality is many parents refuse to see their child the way they really are and many have checked out and pretend to not know what their kids are doing. The number of kids doing drugs is mind-blowing.  These are good kids, smart kids, who have loving, caring families.  They are high every day while at school.  We can't catch them anymore because they use DAB pens to smoke weed and it produces no smell.  Unless we can get drug-sniffing dogs into the building it's next to impossible to prove.  Hell, I've got a kid who is high most of the time and we have been honest with his mom and she doesn't care because SHE GETS HIGH WITH HIM.  

    Not sure the answer to some of this but I would say having REALISTIC policies that help kids would be a start.  Abstinence-only education doesn't work.  Free access to birth control would help.  Being honest with kids about drugs, social media, sex is necessary BUT we can't do that because many parents believe that teachers are indoctrinating their kids or encouraging behavior when the reality is they have no clue what their kids are doing.  I would love to be that honest with a parent but, as you stated, it is not permissible because parents that have access to a lawyer will make sure to sue anyone who believes their child could do any wrong.  The only ones that do wrong are other peoples kids, apparently.  

    In the US, the parents that could, and should, be helping simply leave for private and charter schools so they can protect their own kids with little thought to anyone else.  Don't get me wrong, I get it.  I want the best for my kids and, absolutely, they come first but when do we start caring for our neighbors? Our country is so focused on the individual with little thought for the common good and the general welfare that we seem to forget, or ignore, that we, society, will suffer the consequences of our apathy, our neglect, our selfishness at some point.
    and it's not a teacher's job, in my opinion, to deal with that trauma. those kids should be in counselling. Maybe a teaching/counselling class hybrid or something. I don't know the answer. But I know 100% inclusion isn't it. 
    Maybe not but MOSTLY inclusion IS a good thing.  It teaches kids and teachers empathy and understanding which is sorely lacking in the world today.  My son has an auditory processing disorder, a kind of auditory dyslexia, if you will.  He learns just fine, slower than everyone else because he has to 'interpret' everything which takes him twice as long to do, but he eventually gets it.  Thirty years ago he would have been labeled as slow and put in an isolated classroom.  The world can't revolve around the 'winners'.  School is created for easily teachable kids and we are struggling now to create an environment that will meet the needs of all kids but schools get NO support to do that.  ALL kids deserve a GOOD education that meets their needs.  That won't happen until we lower class sizes for all kids.  Your kids are smart and don't need much guidance but wouldn't it be great if they could excel at a much faster pace?  That's meeting the needs of all not just some of them. 
    I agree with you 100%. 
    Headstones and Watchmen Fan Boy
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,758
    IMO, it is mostly about school staffing issues. They simply need more properly trained educators put in the right places so that inclusion is doable without disrupting the learning process for the majority.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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