Universal Basic Income (UBI)

mrussel1

tempo_n_groove said:

mrussel1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mrussel1 said:

Honestly, I'm not sure it is going to move so fast that we'll even notice.  I mean, what if the unemployment rate stays sub 5% for the next 15 years and we turn around, and all the manufacturing is done with robots and we are just using people to deploy and manage the robots.  Will we need UBI then?  Maybe not.  At what point do we need it?  If full unemployment is redefined as 10% then maybe so.  

If unemployment doesn't go way up then it wouldn't be necessary. It's a discussion because it's predicted that 25% of the workforce will be out of jobs because of automation in the not-too-distant future, and that percentage will only go up from there slowly, likely hitting 50% at some point down the road. It would definitely be best to work out a plan before that starts to happen and not after! We don't want to be trying to design a workable UBI system (around the world no less) during an emergency humanitarian crisis as people are all losing their homes and starving because of a massive lack of jobs obviously, lol. A devastating depression is not the ideal scenario for a UBI system launch, haha. That said... I don't really expect any worse from a lot of governments, including America's and Canada's. I think our governments have a real habit of acting too late on things, especially the hard things. And there is nothing harder than completely redesigning a nation's economic system. Plus, this will take actual cooperation and agreement across party lines. Fat chance.

Well this is all definitely true.  There's never political will until it's too late.  Climate change is exhibit A in America.  I would like to see that 25% study.  That seems exceptionally high, for the US.  Now if you are talking about across the world, that could be.  I would certainly think so in Vietnam, China and other countries where our manufacturing has migrated.  

You have to listen to the podcast...

So truck driving is going to be gone for the most part in 10 years.  All those truck drivers are going to need work.

Now take all the truck stops across middle america.  There really isn't a need for them anymore so get rid of those non money making buildings.

All the people that work in them, waiters, waitress', fuel attendants, aren't needed anymore.

Now all the delivery drivers that used to deliver to them aren't needed anymore.

All the manufacturing that was made to send to these stations aren't needed anymore so let's cutback on production and issue more layoffs.

How many jobs do you think that is?

I'm with PJ Soul on the AI piece, I wasn't thinking about that specifically.  But I'm not convinced that shipping is on the way out.  Plus, I do think that the government will be forced to slow down progress and put in some serious constraints on automation and AI.  I think there will be tremendous demand on the gov't from voters.  The forecast assumes that gov't will not interfere with technology, but I believe it will in some way.  

PJ_Soul

For sure. In this context, and do believe in the trickle down theory, lol. This is going to be massive... I wish the governments would start preparing for it NOW (that would include getting realistic about it with the population so that people know what to expect). But they won't because they suck, and we'll all pay for it (and our kids and grandkids and on down the line until governments pull their heads out of their asses... along with the people who vote for them as they suck).

dignin

Sam Harris has a way better interview with Yang.

https://samharris.org/podcasts/130-universal-basic-income/

Not really a fan of Rogan. 

And in my opinion, if you don't want violence in the streets you are going to have to have UBI in the near future. I'm picturing French Revolution type stuff.

PJ_Soul

mrussel1 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mrussel1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mrussel1 said:

Honestly, I'm not sure it is going to move so fast that we'll even notice.  I mean, what if the unemployment rate stays sub 5% for the next 15 years and we turn around, and all the manufacturing is done with robots and we are just using people to deploy and manage the robots.  Will we need UBI then?  Maybe not.  At what point do we need it?  If full unemployment is redefined as 10% then maybe so.  

If unemployment doesn't go way up then it wouldn't be necessary. It's a discussion because it's predicted that 25% of the workforce will be out of jobs because of automation in the not-too-distant future, and that percentage will only go up from there slowly, likely hitting 50% at some point down the road. It would definitely be best to work out a plan before that starts to happen and not after! We don't want to be trying to design a workable UBI system (around the world no less) during an emergency humanitarian crisis as people are all losing their homes and starving because of a massive lack of jobs obviously, lol. A devastating depression is not the ideal scenario for a UBI system launch, haha. That said... I don't really expect any worse from a lot of governments, including America's and Canada's. I think our governments have a real habit of acting too late on things, especially the hard things. And there is nothing harder than completely redesigning a nation's economic system. Plus, this will take actual cooperation and agreement across party lines. Fat chance.

Well this is all definitely true.  There's never political will until it's too late.  Climate change is exhibit A in America.  I would like to see that 25% study.  That seems exceptionally high, for the US.  Now if you are talking about across the world, that could be.  I would certainly think so in Vietnam, China and other countries where our manufacturing has migrated.  

You have to listen to the podcast...

So truck driving is going to be gone for the most part in 10 years.  All those truck drivers are going to need work.

Now take all the truck stops across middle america.  There really isn't a need for them anymore so get rid of those non money making buildings.

All the people that work in them, waiters, waitress', fuel attendants, aren't needed anymore.

Now all the delivery drivers that used to deliver to them aren't needed anymore.

All the manufacturing that was made to send to these stations aren't needed anymore so let's cutback on production and issue more layoffs.

How many jobs do you think that is?

I'm with PJ Soul on the AI piece, I wasn't thinking about that specifically.  But I'm not convinced that shipping is on the way out.  Plus, I do think that the government will be forced to slow down progress and put in some serious constraints on automation and AI.  I think there will be tremendous demand on the gov't from voters.  The forecast assumes that gov't will not interfere with technology, but I believe it will in some way.  

I wish I did, but I can't agree, simply because automation and AI is cost effective, and our governments are in the pockets of corporations, who will insist upon developing the technologies, and they have the legal right to do so, and as long as safety and privacy requirements and stuff like that are met, the government wouldn't have a leg to stand on. If the government actually overrides that and interferes with technological development ... well, I can't even guess how that would pan out, but I suspect not well at all. I actually don't even think it's possible. It's not like people haven't cried for this in the past for the same reasons. It's never even come close to being achieved. Most don't really take too well to the government declaring that a business can't use what is available to them to increase efficiency, keep up with competition, or save money and/or resources. I mean.... I'm not even necessarily against doing that... But if that's the solution, man, American better embrace socialism FAST!

brianlux

In America, there's no reason that everyone should not have the basics- food, water, clothing and shelter.  I'm all for that happening in one way or another.

Meltdown99

brianlux said:

In America, there's no reason that everyone should not have the basics- food, water, clothing and shelter.  I'm all for that happening in one way or another.

I feel the same way about us here in Canada.  The nearest large city near has seen the homeless problem/opioid/alcohol abuse skyrocket.  And nop one who has the means to address (government does shit)...

brianlux

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

In America, there's no reason that everyone should not have the basics- food, water, clothing and shelter.  I'm all for that happening in one way or another.

I feel the same way about us here in Canada.  The nearest large city near has seen the homeless problem/opioid/alcohol abuse skyrocket.  And nop one who has the means to address (government does shit)...

You're shattering my illusion of Canada as Eden.  Sorry to hear that.   Way too many homeless and too much substance abuse, both here and there- it's terrible. 

PJ_Soul

brianlux said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

In America, there's no reason that everyone should not have the basics- food, water, clothing and shelter.  I'm all for that happening in one way or another.

I feel the same way about us here in Canada.  The nearest large city near has seen the homeless problem/opioid/alcohol abuse skyrocket.  And nop one who has the means to address (government does shit)...

You're shattering my illusion of Canada as Eden.  Sorry to hear that.   Way too many homeless and too much substance abuse, both here and there- it's terrible. 

Are you joking here Brian? You know that we have social problems, yeah? But Meltdown isn't entirely correct. I can't speak for his province and their crap government, but the new(ish) government in BC is totally addressing these issues in many ways. There is no magic cure for it obviously, but they're working hard on it and making really solid and predictably slow progress with both the addiction/fentanyl problem and homelessness, among many other things, like the child care affordability crisis. That's what happens when the population actually manages to elect leaders who give a shit about more than their corporate cronies and their own egos (and TBH BC barely managed that - they had to form a coalition with the 3 Green Party seats to form a majority).

Meltdown99

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

In America, there's no reason that everyone should not have the basics- food, water, clothing and shelter.  I'm all for that happening in one way or another.

I feel the same way about us here in Canada.  The nearest large city near has seen the homeless problem/opioid/alcohol abuse skyrocket.  And nop one who has the means to address (government does shit)...

You're shattering my illusion of Canada as Eden.  Sorry to hear that.   Way too many homeless and too much substance abuse, both here and there- it's terrible. 

Are you joking here Brian? You know that we have social problems, yeah? But Meltdown isn't entirely correct. I can't speak for his province and their crap government, but the new(ish) government in BC is totally addressing these issues in many ways. There is no magic cure for it obviously, but they're working hard on it and making really solid and predictably slow progress with both the addiction/fentanyl problem and homelessness, among many other things, like the child care affordability crisis. That's what happens when the population actually manages to elect leaders who give a shit about more than their corporate cronies and their own egos (and TBH BC barely managed that - they had to form a coalition with the 3 Green Party seats to form a majority).

You know I was talking about the closest big that I live near.  Remember the previous governments created the problem left for the current government to fix.  I wouldn't brag about a province or city that had a new story of kids using dirty needles as darts...wtf is the matter with you.

brianlux

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

In America, there's no reason that everyone should not have the basics- food, water, clothing and shelter.  I'm all for that happening in one way or another.

I feel the same way about us here in Canada.  The nearest large city near has seen the homeless problem/opioid/alcohol abuse skyrocket.  And nop one who has the means to address (government does shit)...

You're shattering my illusion of Canada as Eden.  Sorry to hear that.   Way too many homeless and too much substance abuse, both here and there- it's terrible. 

Are you joking here Brian? You know that we have social problems, yeah? But Meltdown isn't entirely correct. I can't speak for his province and their crap government, but the new(ish) government in BC is totally addressing these issues in many ways. There is no magic cure for it obviously, but they're working hard on it and making really solid and predictably slow progress with both the addiction/fentanyl problem and homelessness, among many other things, like the child care affordability crisis. That's what happens when the population actually manages to elect leaders who give a shit about more than their corporate cronies and their own egos (and TBH BC barely managed that - they had to form a coalition with the 3 Green Party seats to form a majority).

Only joking in the sense that a lot Americans see Canada as this totally together  place which, of course, it isn't (and if you know of such a place, please let me know).  HFD and others here have talked about the problems, especially in places like Winnipeg.  Last year, C. and her business partner were back in the north east U.S. and south east Canada and they spent a couple of days in Montreal.  By the sound of what they said about the place, it sounds like an urban Eden.  But I'm sure they didn't see the whole city.  Any place where there are lots of people and/or poverty, there will be social problems.

Actually, anymore, I guess you could say any place has social problems. 

oftenreading

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

In America, there's no reason that everyone should not have the basics- food, water, clothing and shelter.  I'm all for that happening in one way or another.

I feel the same way about us here in Canada.  The nearest large city near has seen the homeless problem/opioid/alcohol abuse skyrocket.  And nop one who has the means to address (government does shit)...

You're shattering my illusion of Canada as Eden.  Sorry to hear that.   Way too many homeless and too much substance abuse, both here and there- it's terrible. 

Are you joking here Brian? You know that we have social problems, yeah? But Meltdown isn't entirely correct. I can't speak for his province and their crap government, but the new(ish) government in BC is totally addressing these issues in many ways. There is no magic cure for it obviously, but they're working hard on it and making really solid and predictably slow progress with both the addiction/fentanyl problem and homelessness, among many other things, like the child care affordability crisis. That's what happens when the population actually manages to elect leaders who give a shit about more than their corporate cronies and their own egos (and TBH BC barely managed that - they had to form a coalition with the 3 Green Party seats to form a majority).

You know I was talking about the closest big that I live near.  Remember the previous governments created the problem left for the current government to fix.  I wouldn't brag about a province or city that had a new story of kids using dirty needles as darts...wtf is the matter with you.

So the fact that there are discarded needles in a park on Vancouver Island somehow negates the actions that the provincial and municipal governments are taking in tackling homelessness and addictions? 
 

PJ_Soul

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

In America, there's no reason that everyone should not have the basics- food, water, clothing and shelter.  I'm all for that happening in one way or another.

I feel the same way about us here in Canada.  The nearest large city near has seen the homeless problem/opioid/alcohol abuse skyrocket.  And nop one who has the means to address (government does shit)...

You're shattering my illusion of Canada as Eden.  Sorry to hear that.   Way too many homeless and too much substance abuse, both here and there- it's terrible. 

Are you joking here Brian? You know that we have social problems, yeah? But Meltdown isn't entirely correct. I can't speak for his province and their crap government, but the new(ish) government in BC is totally addressing these issues in many ways. There is no magic cure for it obviously, but they're working hard on it and making really solid and predictably slow progress with both the addiction/fentanyl problem and homelessness, among many other things, like the child care affordability crisis. That's what happens when the population actually manages to elect leaders who give a shit about more than their corporate cronies and their own egos (and TBH BC barely managed that - they had to form a coalition with the 3 Green Party seats to form a majority).

You know I was talking about the closest big that I live near.  Remember the previous governments created the problem left for the current government to fix.  I wouldn't brag about a province or city that had a new story of kids using dirty needles as darts...wtf is the matter with you.

Wtf is the matter with you? I can't even work out why you would take this tone with me because of what I said. I'm not bragging. I'm saying I'm pleased with how the current provincial government is functioning. What, are you being defensive of Ontario or something?? I said I can't speak for your province. I know I'm not in favour of its current government though, for a few reasons ... I wasn't in favour of its last one either. But why would you give a shit if I think that? Or did you react like that because you thought I made that last statement about voters and you thought I meant Ontario voters? I didn't. That was directed south, lol, and was sarcastic.

mrussel1

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

In America, there's no reason that everyone should not have the basics- food, water, clothing and shelter.  I'm all for that happening in one way or another.

I feel the same way about us here in Canada.  The nearest large city near has seen the homeless problem/opioid/alcohol abuse skyrocket.  And nop one who has the means to address (government does shit)...

You're shattering my illusion of Canada as Eden.  Sorry to hear that.   Way too many homeless and too much substance abuse, both here and there- it's terrible. 

Are you joking here Brian? You know that we have social problems, yeah? But Meltdown isn't entirely correct. I can't speak for his province and their crap government, but the new(ish) government in BC is totally addressing these issues in many ways. There is no magic cure for it obviously, but they're working hard on it and making really solid and predictably slow progress with both the addiction/fentanyl problem and homelessness, among many other things, like the child care affordability crisis. That's what happens when the population actually manages to elect leaders who give a shit about more than their corporate cronies and their own egos (and TBH BC barely managed that - they had to form a coalition with the 3 Green Party seats to form a majority).

You know I was talking about the closest big that I live near.  Remember the previous governments created the problem left for the current government to fix.  I wouldn't brag about a province or city that had a new story of kids using dirty needles as darts...wtf is the matter with you.

Wtf is the matter with you? I can't even work out why you would take this tone with me because of what I said. I'm not bragging. I'm saying I'm pleased with how the current provincial government is functioning. What, are you being defensive of Ontario or something?? I said I can't speak for your province. I know I'm not in favour of its current government though, for a few reasons ... I wasn't in favour of its last one either. But why would you give a shit if I think that? Or did you react like that because you thought I made that last statement about voters and you thought I meant Ontario voters? I didn't. That was directed south, lol, and was sarcastic.

zero to lunatic in three posts or less. 

benjs

PJ_Soul

brianlux

Run for cover!!!

Halifax2TheMax

brianlux said:

Run for cover!!!

It used to take two people in a bi-plane to achieve 1/1000000 of that. Efficiency!

brianlux

Halifax2TheMax said:

brianlux said:

Run for cover!!!

It used to take two people in a bi-plane to achieve 1/1000000 of that. Efficiency!

And of course we've gone to greater extremes...

tempo_n_groove

Anyone going to follow the Jersey experiment?

foodshop65

NJ is insolvent so this should help with their unfunded pension liabilities