Is This Life?

Halifax2TheMax

19 or 20 something years in a vegetative state, since the age of 2, I believe. Why? Who is paying for this? Most importantly, is it "life?"

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/us/arizona-woman-vegetative-state-gives-birth/index.html

And yes, the scumbag rapist should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

PJ_Soul

Halifax2TheMax said:

19 or 20 something years in a vegetative state, since the age of 2, I believe. Why? Who is paying for this? Most importantly, is it "life?"

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/us/arizona-woman-vegetative-state-gives-birth/index.html

And yes, the scumbag rapist should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Well nobody I know wants to live like that, that is for sure. My and my entire family have all been VERY clear about that with each other. Do NOT keep us alive if that is what we'll be like... In fact, don't keep us alive if we're even halfway to that. We all basically feel that if we can't actually take care of ourselves, we're out. Thanks but no thanks. We've all got the Hemlock Society book on the bookshelf, ready for reference. We have good chats about the best ways to best take ourselves or each other out if we don't qualify for doctor assisted suicide. 

Is this life? Well, technically, yeah. But you knew that already. I don't know the specific circumstances here... Would she die if she were unplugged somewhere? Or no? If not, then it's a complicated issue in terms of the law. Though I don't at all find it complicated when it comes to morals. I think it's absolutely sick to keep someone "alive" like this. Cruel and unusual.

jeffbr

Halifax2TheMax said:

19 or 20 something years in a vegetative state, since the age of 2, I believe. Why? Who is paying for this? Most importantly, is it "life?"

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/us/arizona-woman-vegetative-state-gives-birth/index.html

And yes, the scumbag rapist should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Had the same discussion with my wife. As a 2 yr old she'd have been a lot better off dying. I know I'd rather be dead than veg. Perhaps they're hoping for some technological / medical breakthroughs or something. Perhaps they're blinded by a religion that preaches "sanctity of life" above all else. Perhaps she's a ward of the state and nobody is looking out for her interests. Perhaps her tribe is calling the shots. Either way, it is a shitty way to "live" and I know I wouldn't want that kind of "life" for myself or for anyone I love.

PJ_Soul

jeffbr said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

19 or 20 something years in a vegetative state, since the age of 2, I believe. Why? Who is paying for this? Most importantly, is it "life?"

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/us/arizona-woman-vegetative-state-gives-birth/index.html

And yes, the scumbag rapist should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Had the same discussion with my wife. As a 2 yr old she'd have been a lot better off dying. I know I'd rather be dead than veg. Perhaps they're hoping for some technological / medical breakthroughs or something. Perhaps they're blinded by a religion that preaches "sanctity of life" above all else. Perhaps she's a ward of the state and nobody is looking out for her interests. Perhaps her tribe is calling the shots. Either way, it is a shitty way to "live" and I know I wouldn't want that kind of "life" for myself or for anyone I love.

The horrific thing is that she was apparently "Heard moaning and grunting" when she went into labour. That's how they realized what was happening. That means we know that, while she can't do anything else, she still feels pain. That is just heinous. I consider keeping someone like this alive a form of torture. I don't even think it should be legal.

brianlux

jeffbr said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

19 or 20 something years in a vegetative state, since the age of 2, I believe. Why? Who is paying for this? Most importantly, is it "life?"

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/us/arizona-woman-vegetative-state-gives-birth/index.html

And yes, the scumbag rapist should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Had the same discussion with my wife. As a 2 yr old she'd have been a lot better off dying. I know I'd rather be dead than veg. Perhaps they're hoping for some technological / medical breakthroughs or something. Perhaps they're blinded by a religion that preaches "sanctity of life" above all else. Perhaps she's a ward of the state and nobody is looking out for her interests. Perhaps her tribe is calling the shots. Either way, it is a shitty way to "live" and I know I wouldn't want that kind of "life" for myself or for anyone I love.

I agree, better dead than veg.

Bentleyspop

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

19 or 20 something years in a vegetative state, since the age of 2, I believe. Why? Who is paying for this? Most importantly, is it "life?"

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/us/arizona-woman-vegetative-state-gives-birth/index.html

And yes, the scumbag rapist should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Had the same discussion with my wife. As a 2 yr old she'd have been a lot better off dying. I know I'd rather be dead than veg. Perhaps they're hoping for some technological / medical breakthroughs or something. Perhaps they're blinded by a religion that preaches "sanctity of life" above all else. Perhaps she's a ward of the state and nobody is looking out for her interests. Perhaps her tribe is calling the shots. Either way, it is a shitty way to "live" and I know I wouldn't want that kind of "life" for myself or for anyone I love.

The horrific thing is that she was apparently "Heard moaning and grunting" when she went into labour. That's how they realized what was happening. That means we know that, while she can't do anything else, she still feels pain. That is just heinous. I consider keeping someone like this alive a form of torture. I don't even think it should be legal.

There are experts who say the act of keeping alive someone in a vegetative state by loved ones is a purely selfish act.

PJ_Soul

Bentleyspop said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

19 or 20 something years in a vegetative state, since the age of 2, I believe. Why? Who is paying for this? Most importantly, is it "life?"

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/us/arizona-woman-vegetative-state-gives-birth/index.html

And yes, the scumbag rapist should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Had the same discussion with my wife. As a 2 yr old she'd have been a lot better off dying. I know I'd rather be dead than veg. Perhaps they're hoping for some technological / medical breakthroughs or something. Perhaps they're blinded by a religion that preaches "sanctity of life" above all else. Perhaps she's a ward of the state and nobody is looking out for her interests. Perhaps her tribe is calling the shots. Either way, it is a shitty way to "live" and I know I wouldn't want that kind of "life" for myself or for anyone I love.

The horrific thing is that she was apparently "Heard moaning and grunting" when she went into labour. That's how they realized what was happening. That means we know that, while she can't do anything else, she still feels pain. That is just heinous. I consider keeping someone like this alive a form of torture. I don't even think it should be legal.

There are experts who say the act of keeping alive someone in a vegetative state by loved ones is a purely selfish act.

They're 100% right. I don't get how anyone could see it any other way.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

While I agree with the above comments, I can understand parents keeping their child alive on a hope (a medical breakthrough... a fluke of science... etc.).

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

While I agree with the above comments, I can understand parents keeping their child alive on a hope (a medical breakthrough... a fluke of science... etc.).

I'm not sure I can, if it means that child suffering for years and years and years just on a glimmer of hope. It's inhumane and definitely very selfish.

Halifax2TheMax

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

While I agree with the above comments, I can understand parents keeping their child alive on a hope (a medical breakthrough... a fluke of science... etc.).

27 years? Maybe we need a legal definition of “death?” When does it begin, what constitutes it and when does it occur? 

Thirty Bills Unpaid

I understand them clinging to hope. Yes.

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I understand them clinging to hope. Yes.

Even if it means your child lives for years in pain, with literally no life though? I actually don't get how any parent could live with that choice.

PJ_Soul

Halifax2TheMax said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

While I agree with the above comments, I can understand parents keeping their child alive on a hope (a medical breakthrough... a fluke of science... etc.).

27 years? Maybe we need a legal definition of “death?” When does it begin, what constitutes it and when does it occur? 

There is definitely already a legal definition of death.

Halifax2TheMax

PJ_Soul said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

While I agree with the above comments, I can understand parents keeping their child alive on a hope (a medical breakthrough... a fluke of science... etc.).

27 years? Maybe we need a legal definition of “death?” When does it begin, what constitutes it and when does it occur? 

There is definitely already a legal definition of death.

Maybe it should be updated?

PJ_Soul

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJ_Soul said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

While I agree with the above comments, I can understand parents keeping their child alive on a hope (a medical breakthrough... a fluke of science... etc.).

27 years? Maybe we need a legal definition of “death?” When does it begin, what constitutes it and when does it occur? 

There is definitely already a legal definition of death.

Maybe it should be updated?

I couldn't agree more. But that, of course, would be insanely controversial. Most lawmakers wouldn't want to touch that with a 10-foot poll.

Halifax2TheMax

PJ_Soul said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJ_Soul said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

While I agree with the above comments, I can understand parents keeping their child alive on a hope (a medical breakthrough... a fluke of science... etc.).

27 years? Maybe we need a legal definition of “death?” When does it begin, what constitutes it and when does it occur? 

There is definitely already a legal definition of death.

Maybe it should be updated?

I couldn't agree more. But that, of course, would be insanely controversial. Most lawmakers wouldn't want to touch that with a 10-foot poll.

How many questions on that 10 foot poll?

PJ_Soul

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJ_Soul said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJ_Soul said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

While I agree with the above comments, I can understand parents keeping their child alive on a hope (a medical breakthrough... a fluke of science... etc.).

27 years? Maybe we need a legal definition of “death?” When does it begin, what constitutes it and when does it occur? 

There is definitely already a legal definition of death.

Maybe it should be updated?

I couldn't agree more. But that, of course, would be insanely controversial. Most lawmakers wouldn't want to touch that with a 10-foot poll.

How many questions on that 10 foot poll?

I dunno - how many questions were asked with that Terri Schiavo case? Probably a lot.

Halifax2TheMax

PJ_Soul said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJ_Soul said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJ_Soul said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

While I agree with the above comments, I can understand parents keeping their child alive on a hope (a medical breakthrough... a fluke of science... etc.).

27 years? Maybe we need a legal definition of “death?” When does it begin, what constitutes it and when does it occur? 

There is definitely already a legal definition of death.

Maybe it should be updated?

I couldn't agree more. But that, of course, would be insanely controversial. Most lawmakers wouldn't want to touch that with a 10-foot poll.

How many questions on that 10 foot poll?

I dunno - how many questions were asked with that Terri Schiavo case? Probably a lot.

Good question but the Supreme Court ruled in the husband’s favor and she was allowed to die. Their decision might be worth a read. 
 

PJ_Soul

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJ_Soul said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJ_Soul said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJ_Soul said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

While I agree with the above comments, I can understand parents keeping their child alive on a hope (a medical breakthrough... a fluke of science... etc.).

27 years? Maybe we need a legal definition of “death?” When does it begin, what constitutes it and when does it occur? 

There is definitely already a legal definition of death.

Maybe it should be updated?

I couldn't agree more. But that, of course, would be insanely controversial. Most lawmakers wouldn't want to touch that with a 10-foot poll.

How many questions on that 10 foot poll?

I dunno - how many questions were asked with that Terri Schiavo case? Probably a lot.

Good question but the Supreme Court ruled in the husband’s favor and she was allowed to die. Their decision might be worth a read. 
 

Yes, but that was still her husband's wishes. You're talking about changing the law so that NO family member actually has a choice, to avoid suffering on the part of the patient. I think a law like that would be great and is the only logical option, but you see why it would potentially be political death for any law maker.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I understand them clinging to hope. Yes.

Even if it means your child lives for years in pain, with literally no life though? I actually don't get how any parent could live with that choice.

I wouldn't be one of those parents. I'm just saying I understand where some parents might cling to hope.

I'm not arguing for keeping vegetables alive.

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I understand them clinging to hope. Yes.

Even if it means your child lives for years in pain, with literally no life though? I actually don't get how any parent could live with that choice.

I wouldn't be one of those parents. I'm just saying I understand where some parents might cling to hope.

I'm not arguing for keeping vegetables alive.

Oh yeah, I didn't think you were. I'm just trying to understand how it's understandable, lol.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I understand them clinging to hope. Yes.

Even if it means your child lives for years in pain, with literally no life though? I actually don't get how any parent could live with that choice.

I wouldn't be one of those parents. I'm just saying I understand where some parents might cling to hope.

I'm not arguing for keeping vegetables alive.

Oh yeah, I didn't think you were. I'm just trying to understand how it's understandable, lol.

I’m real weird. A moron lol!

josevolution

There's no way i would of kept my child in that state for all these yrs man this is so sad on all fronts , i'm blessed that's all i can say ..

hedonist

I hope I'm never referred to as a vegetable or veg.  Seems disrespectful, but maybe that's just me...?

I'm thankful to live in a state where assisted suicide is available.  When the time comes, do it, take whatever usable is left of me, and burn the rest.  My husband's on board with this (not sure if that's good or bad ).

The initial question got me thinking of what life means to each of us. Without some semblance of progress or improvement, I can't see living unable to communicate or care for myself, let alone the horrific thought of unanswered / unknown pain...and I can't imagine being in this poor woman's position for so long.

gimmesometruth27

i'd rather be dead than in a vegetative state. but, since i would not be conscious, i would never know the difference.

PJ_Soul

gimmesometruth27 said:

i'd rather be dead than in a vegetative state. but, since i would not be conscious, i would never know the difference.

That isn't always the case, depending on the condition. It is found that some people in a vegetative state do indeed feel pain. Not much else, but constant terrible pain. It seeks that this woman who was raped and gave birth is likely one of those people, as she seemed to feel and react to the pain of labour.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

hedonist said:

I hope I'm never referred to as a vegetable or veg.  Seems disrespectful, but maybe that's just me...?

I'm thankful to live in a state where assisted suicide is available.  When the time comes, do it, take whatever usable is left of me, and burn the rest.  My husband's on board with this (not sure if that's good or bad ).

The initial question got me thinking of what life means to each of us. Without some semblance of progress or improvement, I can't see living unable to communicate or care for myself, let alone the horrific thought of unanswered / unknown pain...and I can't imagine being in this poor woman's position for so long.

My wishes are to be cremated and to use my ashes to grow a tree or plant of some sort.

The cycle of life.

eddiec

I was picking my wife up from the hospital one morning (she's a nurse) and I heard this screaming- by the sound of it I thought it was a female cat in heat. I had to wait about twenty minutes for my wife to come out. The whole time I could hear this screaming. I was in a side car park surrounded by a few wards so a lot of people were able to hear this as well.

On the way home, I told my wife about the screaming cat. That's when she told me: a routine surgery had gone wrong and the woman was left a vegetable. She was able to breath but couldn't walk and apparently had no brain function. I asked my wife how she could scream then. She told me the doctors think she's 'locked in'. That phrase has haunted me ever since. It's possible the woman could hear and maybe see her family and surroundings but was unable to move or speak- all she could do was scream. I think she was like that for a year before she died.

kce8

eddiec said:

I was picking my wife up from the hospital one morning (she's a nurse) and I heard this screaming- by the sound of it I thought it was a female cat in heat. I had to wait about twenty minutes for my wife to come out. The whole time I could hear this screaming. I was in a side car park surrounded by a few wards so a lot of people were able to hear this as well.

On the way home, I told my wife about the screaming cat. That's when she told me: a routine surgery had gone wrong and the woman was left a vegetable. She was able to breath but couldn't walk and apparently had no brain function. I asked my wife how she could scream then. She told me the doctors think she's 'locked in'. That phrase has haunted me ever since. It's possible the woman could hear and maybe see her family and surroundings but was unable to move or speak- all she could do was scream. I think she was like that for a year before she died.

God, that's horrible. 

I agree on what was said here before about nobody wants to let their loved ones live in a vegetative state.
But think about what that means. Are you really able to end that persons life? I mean what if it's your own child?

My godsmother was in that situation in 2005. She and her husband had to decide to take my cousin off of the live keeping system when she was only 24 years old. 
How could they do that? Yes, you don't want to let her live like that but how the f**k can somebody make that decision? You will still hope your child could wake up or doctors find a solution and help her. 
You won't give up!
You just can't!!!
Would you ever forgive yourself? Would she wake up again, you will never know! 
My cousin died the night before my aunt finally had to make that decision. Did my cousin know? Doctors said she wouldn't die by her own. Why did she die exactly that night?

These questions will always be there. To finally have to make that decision is different to just think about it as long as you are not in that situation.

What absolutely upsets me is:
How could they oversee all the signs about the pregnancy? Menstruation, growing belly, Babys even move!, Babys heartbeat… How much care did these "caretaker" take about her? 
And I know you can't blame everybody there for one guy raping her during his shift. If that was the case. But how could they not find out in maybe at least the last 5 month? 

That's disturbing…

benjs

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I understand them clinging to hope. Yes.

Even if it means your child lives for years in pain, with literally no life though? I actually don't get how any parent could live with that choice.

I agree with you logically, but emotionally I can't imagine the weight of that decision, and the agony of making it. It seems to me many people are not strong enough to make the 'right' decision and shut down the emotional half of their brains and think logically at the best of time - this scenario might make that ratio even worse because of the intensity of the emotionality. 

I also can't help but think about what the parents who have been through this, and sees their child successfully healed with advances in medicine, and/or naturally comes out of their coma five, seven, ten years later, and what that parent's perspective is. To those parents, they are adamant that the decision they made was right - and society rejoices when they beat those slim odds, and talk about how sad it is when they don't. We're not Vulcans. That blind and illogical hopefulness, for whatever reason, seems part of our DNA.

Or maybe I'm wrong, but the trend seems to be there.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

eddiec said:

I was picking my wife up from the hospital one morning (she's a nurse) and I heard this screaming- by the sound of it I thought it was a female cat in heat. I had to wait about twenty minutes for my wife to come out. The whole time I could hear this screaming. I was in a side car park surrounded by a few wards so a lot of people were able to hear this as well.

On the way home, I told my wife about the screaming cat. That's when she told me: a routine surgery had gone wrong and the woman was left a vegetable. She was able to breath but couldn't walk and apparently had no brain function. I asked my wife how she could scream then. She told me the doctors think she's 'locked in'. That phrase has haunted me ever since. It's possible the woman could hear and maybe see her family and surroundings but was unable to move or speak- all she could do was scream. I think she was like that for a year before she died.

Eesh.