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Boeing 737 water bomber purchased for Aussie bushfires

rhanishanerhanishane Posts: 505
edited November 2018 in A Moving Train
Why doesn't America purchase one of these it sure would help the wildfires.
We would normally lease them from overseas during summer but with the amount of bushfires we have all year round it was only common sense to buy one. Impressive piloting as today we have a massive dust storm covering most of NSW and gale force winds.

https://www.facebook.com/213250965551/posts/10156536904410552/
Post edited by rhanishane on

Comments

  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,025
    edited November 2018
    rhanishane said:
    Why doesn't America purchase one of these it sure would help the wildfires.
    We would normally lease them from overseas during summer but with the amount of bushfires we have all year round it was only common sense to buy one. Impressive piloting as today we have a massive dust storm covering most of NSW and gale force winds.

    https://www.facebook.com/213250965551/posts/10156536904410552/
    I would love to hear from some well seasoned firefighters on this subject.  Here's what I've found over the years of following this stuff: 

    About 10 or so years ago, in the midst of a large fire here in California, I saw a fire chief being interviewed on the news.  He sounded very together and knowledgeable and stated that water planes and helicopters don't really affect large fires much and are mainly used  for public appeasement.  He said that the greatest gains made in controlling a fire are made on the ground by hot shot crews working the lines and by them setting back fires.  This makes sense to me.

    And then just in the last week a fire official involved with the recent catastrophic fire in Paradise, California mentioned that the water bombers had not been much help because the smoke was so bad they couldn't fly and he kind of hinted at the idea that the fire was so intense, they wouldn't help much anyway.

    My guess is that water bombers help, but only a little and that what the fire chief said about hot shots on the lines and setting back fires is probably true and that more resources used along those lines would be money better spent.  Less glamorous on the news photos, but more effective. 

    Edit:  I have looked for information along these lines in the past and was not successful but just now (after writing the above) came across this.  It confirms my hunches were not far off:


    Air tanker drops in wildfires are often just for show


    "To professional firefighters, though, it was a prime example of a "political air show," the high-profile use of expensive aircraft to appease elected officials.

    Fire commanders say they are often pressured to order planes and helicopters into action on major fires even when the aircraft won't do any good. Such pressure has resulted in needless and costly air operations, experienced fire managers said in interviews.

    The reason for the interference, they say, is that aerial drops of water and retardant make good television. They're a highly visible way for political leaders to show they're doing everything possible to quell a wildfire, even if it entails overriding the judgment of incident commanders on the ground.

    Firefighters have developed their own vernacular for such spectacles. They call them "CNN drops."





    Post edited by brianlux on
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • rhanishanerhanishane Posts: 505
    They are used in conjunction with ground crews. We use multiple air craft from small crop dusters to bucket choppers to air cranes to Air tankers.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,025
    rhanishane said:
    They are used in conjunction with ground crews. We use multiple air craft from small crop dusters to bucket choppers to air cranes to Air tankers.
    Yes, true, they are. And in some instances, I'm sure they are helpful.  Here in the western U.S., as the article I posted clearly points out, I believe they are often used just for show. 
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • rhanishanerhanishane Posts: 505
    brianlux said:
    rhanishane said:
    They are used in conjunction with ground crews. We use multiple air craft from small crop dusters to bucket choppers to air cranes to Air tankers.
    Yes, true, they are. And in some instances, I'm sure they are helpful.  Here in the western U.S., as the article I posted clearly points out, I believe they are often used just for show. 
    Since black Saturday we have become quite vigilant in dealing with bushfires. We now have monitored fire ratings, total fire bans over summer and strict guidelines and heavy fines regarding lighting fires and camping. High fuel load, rain activity and wind all factor in to our total fire ban days and ceasing harvesting and use of power tools on dangerous days. We also have a new sms warning system and alerts direct to mobile phone within regions affected by fire or fire threatened areas. All forests are shut down on high fire danger periods and campgrounds are evacuated. If you're in a bushy suburb on those days you are recommended to spend the day at a shopping centre etc in case of any fire event starting that day as resources will not be able to save you in those conditions. We are also instructed to fill out our fire safety plan and what you would do in the case a fire should break out in your region. We have this drummed into us daily. 
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,025
    rhanishane said:
    brianlux said:
    rhanishane said:
    They are used in conjunction with ground crews. We use multiple air craft from small crop dusters to bucket choppers to air cranes to Air tankers.
    Yes, true, they are. And in some instances, I'm sure they are helpful.  Here in the western U.S., as the article I posted clearly points out, I believe they are often used just for show. 
    Since black Saturday we have become quite vigilant in dealing with bushfires. We now have monitored fire ratings, total fire bans over summer and strict guidelines and heavy fines regarding lighting fires and camping. High fuel load, rain activity and wind all factor in to our total fire ban days and ceasing harvesting and use of power tools on dangerous days. We also have a new sms warning system and alerts direct to mobile phone within regions affected by fire or fire threatened areas. All forests are shut down on high fire danger periods and campgrounds are evacuated. If you're in a bushy suburb on those days you are recommended to spend the day at a shopping centre etc in case of any fire event starting that day as resources will not be able to save you in those conditions. We are also instructed to fill out our fire safety plan and what you would do in the case a fire should break out in your region. We have this drummed into us daily. 
    One thing for sure, the western US and parts of Australia both are becoming more an more major fire hazard areas.

    Best of luck to us!
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • rhanishanerhanishane Posts: 505
    brianlux said:
    rhanishane said:
    brianlux said:
    rhanishane said:
    They are used in conjunction with ground crews. We use multiple air craft from small crop dusters to bucket choppers to air cranes to Air tankers.
    Yes, true, they are. And in some instances, I'm sure they are helpful.  Here in the western U.S., as the article I posted clearly points out, I believe they are often used just for show. 
    Since black Saturday we have become quite vigilant in dealing with bushfires. We now have monitored fire ratings, total fire bans over summer and strict guidelines and heavy fines regarding lighting fires and camping. High fuel load, rain activity and wind all factor in to our total fire ban days and ceasing harvesting and use of power tools on dangerous days. We also have a new sms warning system and alerts direct to mobile phone within regions affected by fire or fire threatened areas. All forests are shut down on high fire danger periods and campgrounds are evacuated. If you're in a bushy suburb on those days you are recommended to spend the day at a shopping centre etc in case of any fire event starting that day as resources will not be able to save you in those conditions. We are also instructed to fill out our fire safety plan and what you would do in the case a fire should break out in your region. We have this drummed into us daily. 
    One thing for sure, the western US and parts of Australia both are becoming more an more major fire hazard areas.

    Best of luck to us!
    We are focusing on saving lives in the event of major bushfires here as we are all pretty aware how quickly they get out of hand. We are now recommended to leave if possible if there is a dangerous day forecast ahead even before a fire has started. I've seen a fire take a run for 30km in just a couple of hours with a wind change. Thats fast and you think you're safe being that far away but you're not! Air tankers here are just to slow the threat and give the ground crews a little help definitely not for show here.
  • rhanishanerhanishane Posts: 505
    edited November 2018
    Black saturday claimed 173 lives and an estimated over 1 million domestic and wild animals in 2009

    http://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/black-saturday-bushfires
    Post edited by rhanishane on
  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Posts: 15,165
    Why water bomb when you can rake?
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • rhanishanerhanishane Posts: 505
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    Why water bomb when you can rake?
    hahaha brilliant idea Trump😉
  • rhanishanerhanishane Posts: 505
    brianlux said:
    rhanishane said:
    Why doesn't America purchase one of these it sure would help the wildfires.
    We would normally lease them from overseas during summer but with the amount of bushfires we have all year round it was only common sense to buy one. Impressive piloting as today we have a massive dust storm covering most of NSW and gale force winds.

    https://www.facebook.com/213250965551/posts/10156536904410552/
    I would love to hear from some well seasoned firefighters on this subject.  Here's what I've found over the years of following this stuff: 

    About 10 or so years ago, in the midst of a large fire here in California, I saw a fire chief being interviewed on the news.  He sounded very together and knowledgeable and stated that water planes and helicopters don't really affect large fires much and are mainly used  for public appeasement.  He said that the greatest gains made in controlling a fire are made on the ground by hot shot crews working the lines and by them setting back fires.  This makes sense to me.

    And then just in the last week a fire official involved with the recent catastrophic fire in Paradise, California mentioned that the water bombers had not been much help because the smoke was so bad they couldn't fly and he kind of hinted at the idea that the fire was so intense, they wouldn't help much anyway.

    My guess is that water bombers help, but only a little and that what the fire chief said about hot shots on the lines and setting back fires is probably true and that more resources used along those lines would be money better spent.  Less glamorous on the news photos, but more effective. 

    Edit:  I have looked for information along these lines in the past and was not successful but just now (after writing the above) came across this.  It confirms my hunches were not far off:


    Air tanker drops in wildfires are often just for show


    "To professional firefighters, though, it was a prime example of a "political air show," the high-profile use of expensive aircraft to appease elected officials.

    Fire commanders say they are often pressured to order planes and helicopters into action on major fires even when the aircraft won't do any good. Such pressure has resulted in needless and costly air operations, experienced fire managers said in interviews.

    The reason for the interference, they say, is that aerial drops of water and retardant make good television. They're a highly visible way for political leaders to show they're doing everything possible to quell a wildfire, even if it entails overriding the judgment of incident commanders on the ground.

    Firefighters have developed their own vernacular for such spectacles. They call them "CNN drops."





    This is Nancy Bird the air tanker we used last year.
     https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1754873081198777&id=196797920339642
  • rhanishanerhanishane Posts: 505
    rhanishane said:
    brianlux said:
    rhanishane said:
    Why doesn't America purchase one of these it sure would help the wildfires.
    We would normally lease them from overseas during summer but with the amount of bushfires we have all year round it was only common sense to buy one. Impressive piloting as today we have a massive dust storm covering most of NSW and gale force winds.

    https://www.facebook.com/213250965551/posts/10156536904410552/
    I would love to hear from some well seasoned firefighters on this subject.  Here's what I've found over the years of following this stuff: 

    About 10 or so years ago, in the midst of a large fire here in California, I saw a fire chief being interviewed on the news.  He sounded very together and knowledgeable and stated that water planes and helicopters don't really affect large fires much and are mainly used  for public appeasement.  He said that the greatest gains made in controlling a fire are made on the ground by hot shot crews working the lines and by them setting back fires.  This makes sense to me.

    And then just in the last week a fire official involved with the recent catastrophic fire in Paradise, California mentioned that the water bombers had not been much help because the smoke was so bad they couldn't fly and he kind of hinted at the idea that the fire was so intense, they wouldn't help much anyway.

    My guess is that water bombers help, but only a little and that what the fire chief said about hot shots on the lines and setting back fires is probably true and that more resources used along those lines would be money better spent.  Less glamorous on the news photos, but more effective. 

    Edit:  I have looked for information along these lines in the past and was not successful but just now (after writing the above) came across this.  It confirms my hunches were not far off:


    Air tanker drops in wildfires are often just for show


    "To professional firefighters, though, it was a prime example of a "political air show," the high-profile use of expensive aircraft to appease elected officials.

    Fire commanders say they are often pressured to order planes and helicopters into action on major fires even when the aircraft won't do any good. Such pressure has resulted in needless and costly air operations, experienced fire managers said in interviews.

    The reason for the interference, they say, is that aerial drops of water and retardant make good television. They're a highly visible way for political leaders to show they're doing everything possible to quell a wildfire, even if it entails overriding the judgment of incident commanders on the ground.

    Firefighters have developed their own vernacular for such spectacles. They call them "CNN drops."





    This is Nancy Bird the air tanker we used last year.
     https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1754873081198777&id=196797920339642
    rhanishane said:
    brianlux said:
    rhanishane said:
    Why doesn't America purchase one of these it sure would help the wildfires.
    We would normally lease them from overseas during summer but with the amount of bushfires we have all year round it was only common sense to buy one. Impressive piloting as today we have a massive dust storm covering most of NSW and gale force winds.

    https://www.facebook.com/213250965551/posts/10156536904410552/
    I would love to hear from some well seasoned firefighters on this subject.  Here's what I've found over the years of following this stuff: 

    About 10 or so years ago, in the midst of a large fire here in California, I saw a fire chief being interviewed on the news.  He sounded very together and knowledgeable and stated that water planes and helicopters don't really affect large fires much and are mainly used  for public appeasement.  He said that the greatest gains made in controlling a fire are made on the ground by hot shot crews working the lines and by them setting back fires.  This makes sense to me.

    And then just in the last week a fire official involved with the recent catastrophic fire in Paradise, California mentioned that the water bombers had not been much help because the smoke was so bad they couldn't fly and he kind of hinted at the idea that the fire was so intense, they wouldn't help much anyway.

    My guess is that water bombers help, but only a little and that what the fire chief said about hot shots on the lines and setting back fires is probably true and that more resources used along those lines would be money better spent.  Less glamorous on the news photos, but more effective. 

    Edit:  I have looked for information along these lines in the past and was not successful but just now (after writing the above) came across this.  It confirms my hunches were not far off:


    Air tanker drops in wildfires are often just for show


    "To professional firefighters, though, it was a prime example of a "political air show," the high-profile use of expensive aircraft to appease elected officials.

    Fire commanders say they are often pressured to order planes and helicopters into action on major fires even when the aircraft won't do any good. Such pressure has resulted in needless and costly air operations, experienced fire managers said in interviews.

    The reason for the interference, they say, is that aerial drops of water and retardant make good television. They're a highly visible way for political leaders to show they're doing everything possible to quell a wildfire, even if it entails overriding the judgment of incident commanders on the ground.

    Firefighters have developed their own vernacular for such spectacles. They call them "CNN drops."





    This is Nancy Bird the air tanker we used last year.
     https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1754873081198777&id=196797920339642
    American pilot and former firefighter.
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 Posts: 10,739
    The US has access to similar size water bombers...
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 Posts: 10,739

    Buy water bombers, not fighter jets


    https://www.thestar.com/opinion/letters_to_the_editors/2018/07/31/buy-water-bombers-not-fighter-jets.html

    These are excellent bombers.  Some of the best in the world...
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,520
    edited November 2018
    I seriously doubt they would've flown up water bombing planes from Italy to Sweden this past summer "for show".
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • rhanishanerhanishane Posts: 505
    We also get these constant updates and linescan images of threatening fires like this one just posted. We have 3 categories #1 advice #2 watch & act and #3 emergency warning meaning lives could be lost. We also have fires near me app that anyone can put on they're mobile that pinpoints any recent fire activities in the state with the 3 warning symbols and location and status. We cant afford to be complacent as our bush is highly flammable even in winter. Perhaps something high fire danger areas in US could look into to keep people informed of the dangers in high fire prone areas. Our state of NSW is divided into fire prone regions as the whole state and continent is at risk. Each state has its own fire authority and warnings.

    https://www.facebook.com/213250965551/posts/10156537971985552/
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,025
    I stand by my posts.  SOMEtimes, those water bombers are flown for show.  Read the article.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • rhanishanerhanishane Posts: 505
    This was last winter a fire that broke out near my home and travelled 30 km inland to the ocean in one afternoon and evacuated a major highschool. It burned through wetlands in winter. Just crazy.
  • rhanishanerhanishane Posts: 505
    brianlux said:
    I stand by my posts.  SOMEtimes, those water bombers are flown for show.  Read the article.
    I read the article i totally agree. Perhaps only in America as sometimes they are screaming to get the water bombers to fires here. They don't always use them only when they have to
  • rhanishanerhanishane Posts: 505
    I see more choppers dumping on spot fires and pinpointing bucket drops to flank fires. Air tankers are used more when communities are at threat to create a fire break against homes
  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Posts: 15,165
    Trump should ask water bombers to not drop water on fires but rakes. Plenty of rakes. Only rakes.

    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,025
    rhanishane said:
    brianlux said:
    I stand by my posts.  SOMEtimes, those water bombers are flown for show.  Read the article.
    I read the article i totally agree. Perhaps only in America as sometimes they are screaming to get the water bombers to fires here. They don't always use them only when they have to
    I wonder if that has to do with differing vegetation, air currents, etc?  Are you fires more in forested, shrub/bush lands or grasslands?  And the terrain- hilly?  Flat?

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • rhanishanerhanishane Posts: 505
    brianlux said:
    rhanishane said:
    brianlux said:
    I stand by my posts.  SOMEtimes, those water bombers are flown for show.  Read the article.
    I read the article i totally agree. Perhaps only in America as sometimes they are screaming to get the water bombers to fires here. They don't always use them only when they have to
    I wonder if that has to do with differing vegetation, air currents, etc?  Are you fires more in forested, shrub/bush lands or grasslands?  And the terrain- hilly?  Flat?

    honestly they will burn anywhere if conditions are right. Gumtrees are highly flammable because they're eucalyptus. Our native bushland relies on heat and fire to regenerate and pop seeds. Our fires are getting hotter and devastating forests as they cant regenerate when they're obliterated. desert air currents and low humidity, high fuel load Gumtrees drop a hell of a load of leaves, bark and branches. Dry grass lands and farmed land. Were a dry country comprised of majority desert. Hot westerly winds from the centre of Australia. The North West is hot and dry most year round. Dry winters add to fuel load. Rains add to fuel load as it can take just a few weeks of consecutive hot days to dry out all the new growth. Black Saturday was so intense that fire was moving across flooded grass. radiant heat was one of the biggest killers on that day as it sucks the air from your lungs and a lot of people were trapped in their cars trying to escape. People going back for their horses and pets etc and just people trapped in their homes with no where to go were calling family saying this is it. Some had their feet melted off from the intense heat and it was so hot some bodies were found with their bones fused together as they huddled for safety. It was said it had the energy of so many hydrogen bombs cant remember how many. There is also something called a red steer where a fire generates enough energy it basically causes an explosion and can blow a fireball for miles. 
  • rhanishanerhanishane Posts: 505
    There was also an entire town in western australia a few years ago which basically had no vegetation completely razed to the ground by fire. Wind and heat just drives it along and it will burn anything. There is a huge burn scar for miles seen from satellite from that fire. 
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,025
    rhanishane said:
    There was also an entire town in western australia a few years ago which basically had no vegetation completely razed to the ground by fire. Wind and heat just drives it along and it will burn anything. There is a huge burn scar for miles seen from satellite from that fire. 
    One of the big reasons we have such huge fires here in the western U.S. is because for a full century, fire was widely suppressed.  Those fires- often started naturally by lightning) are necessary for some plants and trees like manzanita and redwoods to propagate the way your bushlands do.  Has Australia made the same mistake of suppressing natural fires over long periods of time?  Are there other reason for increased fires on you r continent?  Or is it just a matter of too much urban-wildland interface?
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • rhanishanerhanishane Posts: 505
    edited November 2018
    yes its in the black saturday link up the page basically gives a quick glimpse into the causes and nature of wildfires here.
    Post edited by rhanishane on
  • rhanishanerhanishane Posts: 505
    We have a lot of dry storms and lightning watch towers in the blue mountains near sydney. We have planes fly over after storms and for weeks after as when lighting hits a tree usually a big forest gum and it burns into the roots it can sit  dormant for weeks and even months underground till conditions are right a blaze will start in the forest. These trees are called sleepers and happens more often than you would think.
  • rhanishanerhanishane Posts: 505
    i recently read an article blaming gumtrees taken to California were likely the cause of its recurring wildfires?
  • rhanishanerhanishane Posts: 505
    And again wildfires raging in Aus. The wind change will be coming through about now and turning the flank into the fire front. Good luck to everyone out there in its path take care.
    https://www.facebook.com/363623854300/posts/10157360040619301/
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