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Lies, Damn Lies & The Lying Liars That Tell Them

Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 39,020
in A Moving Train

I read the following in an article about dementia, of all things and man, I do not wish that on anyone, in the October 8th New Yorker. It struck me on many levels but mostly because of Team Trump Treason. Perhaps, sufficient reason for impeachment? In addition, I listened to an NPR interview with a journalist with the Toronto Star who has documented every lie told by Team Trump Treason since taking the oath of office. One of the motivations behind them, is that for every lie we discuss, consumes the news cycle or is debated or followed up on, we're not talking, debating or reporting on the things that really matter (Team Mueller investigation, tax, environmental, health policy, etc.). But it goes deeper than that according to the following:

"Moreover, it is not only the liar's character that is at stake but also that of people around them who see and hear what they're doing. 'Let's say it's a family with children listening in,' Bok says. 'There is so much lying in families anyway-how will children distinguish this from other kinds of lies?' A child hearing a parent lie will be particularly affected, but so will anyone who hears another person lying without compunction-lying in fact, in a spirit of kindness. The commitment to truth is very fragile, Bok believes. It can be preserved only if we believe that other people are also committed to it. 'The veneer of social trust is often thin,' she wrote in "Lying." 'As lies spread-by imitation, or in retaliation, or to forestall suspected detection-trust is damaged. Yet trust is a social good to be protected just as much as the air we breathe or the water we drink....When it is destroyed, societies falter and collapse." The New Yorker, October 8, 2018, pages 53-54.

Facts matter. The truth matters.

More information:

Sissela Bok:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sissela_Bok

Lying:

Is it ever all right to lie? A philosopher looks at lying and deception in public and private life—in government, medicine, law, academia, journalism, in the family and between friends.

Lying is a penetrating and thoughtful examination of one of the most pervasive yet little discussed aspects of our public and private lives. Beginning with the moral questions raised about lying since antiquity, Sissela Bok takes up the justifications offered for all kinds of lies—white lies, lies to the sick and dying, lies of parents to children, lies to enemies, lies to protect clients and peers. The consequences of such lies are then explored through a number of concrete situations in which people are involved, either as liars or as the victims of a lie.

https://www.amazon.com/Lying-Moral-Choice-Public-Private/dp/0375705287

 

09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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Comments

  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 29,525
    America decided in 2016 that a pathological liar was the best option and here we are !
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    I hadn't seen that New Yorker story. Fuck. That was brutal to read. I just lost my mom a couple of months ago to Alzheimer's and that was a decade of a bullshit death sentence playing out. It is brutal and ugly and never ends well.

    I understand the point being made by Halifax, and agree. But I just can't get past the people with Alzheimer's/dementia in that story. I am definitely pro-compassion, and that means pro-lying to dementia patients. I think the Dr's in the 70's who were all about confronting them with truth and reality lacked empathy and compassion, and were monsters. It's hard to tell someone to fuck themselves for telling the truth, but fuck them for psychologically abusing those poor dementia patients at a point in their lives when they just needed comforting and a peaceful, safe surrounding. Lying absolutely has its place in dementia care. I have no moral struggle with that belief. 

    Trump's lying is an entire different thing. It is unclear to me how much of what he says he believes. I believe he's delusional on some level. I know he's an intentional liar on another level. I guess that combo produces someone who is disengaged from the truth most of the time. If it is because he has dementia, then let's get him into a comfortable care facility and restore our country's dignity and honor. If it is because he has a compulsion to lie, then let's get him out of office and back to his real estate empire where lying like that is the status quo and the recipe for success. Either way, Trump's lying is harmful and in stark contrast to a caregiver's therapeutic fibbing. 
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 39,020
    jeffbr said:
    I hadn't seen that New Yorker story. Fuck. That was brutal to read. I just lost my mom a couple of months ago to Alzheimer's and that was a decade of a bullshit death sentence playing out. It is brutal and ugly and never ends well.

    I understand the point being made by Halifax, and agree. But I just can't get past the people with Alzheimer's/dementia in that story. I am definitely pro-compassion, and that means pro-lying to dementia patients. I think the Dr's in the 70's who were all about confronting them with truth and reality lacked empathy and compassion, and were monsters. It's hard to tell someone to fuck themselves for telling the truth, but fuck them for psychologically abusing those poor dementia patients at a point in their lives when they just needed comforting and a peaceful, safe surrounding. Lying absolutely has its place in dementia care. I have no moral struggle with that belief. 

    Trump's lying is an entire different thing. It is unclear to me how much of what he says he believes. I believe he's delusional on some level. I know he's an intentional liar on another level. I guess that combo produces someone who is disengaged from the truth most of the time. If it is because he has dementia, then let's get him into a comfortable care facility and restore our country's dignity and honor. If it is because he has a compulsion to lie, then let's get him out of office and back to his real estate empire where lying like that is the status quo and the recipe for success. Either way, Trump's lying is harmful and in stark contrast to a caregiver's therapeutic fibbing. 
    I’m dealing with it now and at one point, I had to stop reading it. I finished it and I’m not sure yet where I fall. Time will tell but it’s brutal. I just really found the quote about the collapse of societies really timely as we're seeing it happen before our eyes.

    I certainly wouldn’t want to live that way and I hope I remember to OD on my drug(s) of choice, if it comes that way. I can’t begin to imagine what that Dutch facility would cost per month in the US. $15-$20K per month?
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain Posts: 31,265
    Sorry for you both

    Agree on the way to go out.  This....not the guns after it.


    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,027
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    jeffbr said:
    I hadn't seen that New Yorker story. Fuck. That was brutal to read. I just lost my mom a couple of months ago to Alzheimer's and that was a decade of a bullshit death sentence playing out. It is brutal and ugly and never ends well.

    I understand the point being made by Halifax, and agree. But I just can't get past the people with Alzheimer's/dementia in that story. I am definitely pro-compassion, and that means pro-lying to dementia patients. I think the Dr's in the 70's who were all about confronting them with truth and reality lacked empathy and compassion, and were monsters. It's hard to tell someone to fuck themselves for telling the truth, but fuck them for psychologically abusing those poor dementia patients at a point in their lives when they just needed comforting and a peaceful, safe surrounding. Lying absolutely has its place in dementia care. I have no moral struggle with that belief. 

    Trump's lying is an entire different thing. It is unclear to me how much of what he says he believes. I believe he's delusional on some level. I know he's an intentional liar on another level. I guess that combo produces someone who is disengaged from the truth most of the time. If it is because he has dementia, then let's get him into a comfortable care facility and restore our country's dignity and honor. If it is because he has a compulsion to lie, then let's get him out of office and back to his real estate empire where lying like that is the status quo and the recipe for success. Either way, Trump's lying is harmful and in stark contrast to a caregiver's therapeutic fibbing. 
    I’m dealing with it now and at one point, I had to stop reading it. I finished it and I’m not sure yet where I fall. Time will tell but it’s brutal. I just really found the quote about the collapse of societies really timely as we're seeing it happen before our eyes.

    I certainly wouldn’t want to live that way and I hope I remember to OD on my drug(s) of choice, if it comes that way. I can’t begin to imagine what that Dutch facility would cost per month in the US. $15-$20K per month?
    My mother died from Alzheimer's in 2009.  During the last relatively coherent conversation I had with her, she strongly hinted that when she got to the point where she was no longer cognizant and able to make decisions on her own, she wanted to take her own life.  But of course by the time she reached that point, she was no longer cognizant and couldn't think clearly enough to take that action.  Shortly after that, she went into a long term care facility where my father went every day to be with her and we went up there as often as possible to see her.  She spent that last year of her life crying almost all of the time, but was unable to tell us why- not that we couldn't figure out why.   It's a terrible way to die.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,521
    Isnt that a book title by touchy-franken?
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    brianlux said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    jeffbr said:
    I hadn't seen that New Yorker story. Fuck. That was brutal to read. I just lost my mom a couple of months ago to Alzheimer's and that was a decade of a bullshit death sentence playing out. It is brutal and ugly and never ends well.

    I understand the point being made by Halifax, and agree. But I just can't get past the people with Alzheimer's/dementia in that story. I am definitely pro-compassion, and that means pro-lying to dementia patients. I think the Dr's in the 70's who were all about confronting them with truth and reality lacked empathy and compassion, and were monsters. It's hard to tell someone to fuck themselves for telling the truth, but fuck them for psychologically abusing those poor dementia patients at a point in their lives when they just needed comforting and a peaceful, safe surrounding. Lying absolutely has its place in dementia care. I have no moral struggle with that belief. 

    Trump's lying is an entire different thing. It is unclear to me how much of what he says he believes. I believe he's delusional on some level. I know he's an intentional liar on another level. I guess that combo produces someone who is disengaged from the truth most of the time. If it is because he has dementia, then let's get him into a comfortable care facility and restore our country's dignity and honor. If it is because he has a compulsion to lie, then let's get him out of office and back to his real estate empire where lying like that is the status quo and the recipe for success. Either way, Trump's lying is harmful and in stark contrast to a caregiver's therapeutic fibbing. 
    I’m dealing with it now and at one point, I had to stop reading it. I finished it and I’m not sure yet where I fall. Time will tell but it’s brutal. I just really found the quote about the collapse of societies really timely as we're seeing it happen before our eyes.

    I certainly wouldn’t want to live that way and I hope I remember to OD on my drug(s) of choice, if it comes that way. I can’t begin to imagine what that Dutch facility would cost per month in the US. $15-$20K per month?
    My mother died from Alzheimer's in 2009.  During the last relatively coherent conversation I had with her, she strongly hinted that when she got to the point where she was no longer cognizant and able to make decisions on her own, she wanted to take her own life.  But of course by the time she reached that point, she was no longer cognizant and couldn't think clearly enough to take that action.  Shortly after that, she went into a long term care facility where my father went every day to be with her and we went up there as often as possible to see her.  She spent that last year of her life crying almost all of the time, but was unable to tell us why- not that we couldn't figure out why.   It's a terrible way to die.
    So sorry to hear that Brian. And sorry you're having to deal with it Halifax. It is a horrible thing to have to deal with. We can only do so much. But we can love them, tell them we love them, keep them safe and comfortable to whatever extent possible, and think back on better times and hold on to those memories. 
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,027
    jeffbr said:
    brianlux said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    jeffbr said:
    I hadn't seen that New Yorker story. Fuck. That was brutal to read. I just lost my mom a couple of months ago to Alzheimer's and that was a decade of a bullshit death sentence playing out. It is brutal and ugly and never ends well.

    I understand the point being made by Halifax, and agree. But I just can't get past the people with Alzheimer's/dementia in that story. I am definitely pro-compassion, and that means pro-lying to dementia patients. I think the Dr's in the 70's who were all about confronting them with truth and reality lacked empathy and compassion, and were monsters. It's hard to tell someone to fuck themselves for telling the truth, but fuck them for psychologically abusing those poor dementia patients at a point in their lives when they just needed comforting and a peaceful, safe surrounding. Lying absolutely has its place in dementia care. I have no moral struggle with that belief. 

    Trump's lying is an entire different thing. It is unclear to me how much of what he says he believes. I believe he's delusional on some level. I know he's an intentional liar on another level. I guess that combo produces someone who is disengaged from the truth most of the time. If it is because he has dementia, then let's get him into a comfortable care facility and restore our country's dignity and honor. If it is because he has a compulsion to lie, then let's get him out of office and back to his real estate empire where lying like that is the status quo and the recipe for success. Either way, Trump's lying is harmful and in stark contrast to a caregiver's therapeutic fibbing. 
    I’m dealing with it now and at one point, I had to stop reading it. I finished it and I’m not sure yet where I fall. Time will tell but it’s brutal. I just really found the quote about the collapse of societies really timely as we're seeing it happen before our eyes.

    I certainly wouldn’t want to live that way and I hope I remember to OD on my drug(s) of choice, if it comes that way. I can’t begin to imagine what that Dutch facility would cost per month in the US. $15-$20K per month?
    My mother died from Alzheimer's in 2009.  During the last relatively coherent conversation I had with her, she strongly hinted that when she got to the point where she was no longer cognizant and able to make decisions on her own, she wanted to take her own life.  But of course by the time she reached that point, she was no longer cognizant and couldn't think clearly enough to take that action.  Shortly after that, she went into a long term care facility where my father went every day to be with her and we went up there as often as possible to see her.  She spent that last year of her life crying almost all of the time, but was unable to tell us why- not that we couldn't figure out why.   It's a terrible way to die.
    So sorry to hear that Brian. And sorry you're having to deal with it Halifax. It is a horrible thing to have to deal with. We can only do so much. But we can love them, tell them we love them, keep them safe and comfortable to whatever extent possible, and think back on better times and hold on to those memories. 
    Fine words there, Jeff.  Thank you.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    Lying for malice and personal gain / ego?  Nope and nope.

    Conversely, I'm all for, under other circumstances, "lying" in order to preserve...kindness?  A sense of safety and love and not being alone, a semblance of normalcy...

    Alzheimer's is one of the cruelest diseases; I'm so sorry for those who are living with or lost those to this monstrosity.

    I've no problem ending my life when it is no longer my life.  My husband knows this and the dude will abide.

    Now to get those pesky legal forms in place  :pensive:
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 39,020
    hedonist said:
    Lying for malice and personal gain / ego?  Nope and nope.

    Conversely, I'm all for, under other circumstances, "lying" in order to preserve...kindness?  A sense of safety and love and not being alone, a semblance of normalcy...

    Alzheimer's is one of the cruelest diseases; I'm so sorry for those who are living with or lost those to this monstrosity.

    I've no problem ending my life when it is no longer my life.  My husband knows this and the dude will abide.

    Now to get those pesky legal forms in place  :pensive:
    In the words of a very dear friend of mine who passed at age 44 from bladder cancer, "Don't die messy."
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,950
    jeffbr said:
    brianlux said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    jeffbr said:
    I hadn't seen that New Yorker story. Fuck. That was brutal to read. I just lost my mom a couple of months ago to Alzheimer's and that was a decade of a bullshit death sentence playing out. It is brutal and ugly and never ends well.

    I understand the point being made by Halifax, and agree. But I just can't get past the people with Alzheimer's/dementia in that story. I am definitely pro-compassion, and that means pro-lying to dementia patients. I think the Dr's in the 70's who were all about confronting them with truth and reality lacked empathy and compassion, and were monsters. It's hard to tell someone to fuck themselves for telling the truth, but fuck them for psychologically abusing those poor dementia patients at a point in their lives when they just needed comforting and a peaceful, safe surrounding. Lying absolutely has its place in dementia care. I have no moral struggle with that belief. 

    Trump's lying is an entire different thing. It is unclear to me how much of what he says he believes. I believe he's delusional on some level. I know he's an intentional liar on another level. I guess that combo produces someone who is disengaged from the truth most of the time. If it is because he has dementia, then let's get him into a comfortable care facility and restore our country's dignity and honor. If it is because he has a compulsion to lie, then let's get him out of office and back to his real estate empire where lying like that is the status quo and the recipe for success. Either way, Trump's lying is harmful and in stark contrast to a caregiver's therapeutic fibbing. 
    I’m dealing with it now and at one point, I had to stop reading it. I finished it and I’m not sure yet where I fall. Time will tell but it’s brutal. I just really found the quote about the collapse of societies really timely as we're seeing it happen before our eyes.

    I certainly wouldn’t want to live that way and I hope I remember to OD on my drug(s) of choice, if it comes that way. I can’t begin to imagine what that Dutch facility would cost per month in the US. $15-$20K per month?
    My mother died from Alzheimer's in 2009.  During the last relatively coherent conversation I had with her, she strongly hinted that when she got to the point where she was no longer cognizant and able to make decisions on her own, she wanted to take her own life.  But of course by the time she reached that point, she was no longer cognizant and couldn't think clearly enough to take that action.  Shortly after that, she went into a long term care facility where my father went every day to be with her and we went up there as often as possible to see her.  She spent that last year of her life crying almost all of the time, but was unable to tell us why- not that we couldn't figure out why.   It's a terrible way to die.
    So sorry to hear that Brian. And sorry you're having to deal with it Halifax. It is a horrible thing to have to deal with. We can only do so much. But we can love them, tell them we love them, keep them safe and comfortable to whatever extent possible, and think back on better times and hold on to those memories. 
    And be an advocate for death with dignity laws.

    I'm so sorry to all of you whose loved one died this way. It breaks my heart to hear these stories.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    edited October 2018
    This is the stuff that brings us together and shows us that people aren't that much different from each other, and most want the same things out of life.

    Peace, health, and clarity of mind to all of you, truly
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 29,525
    jeffbr said:
    brianlux said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    jeffbr said:
    I hadn't seen that New Yorker story. Fuck. That was brutal to read. I just lost my mom a couple of months ago to Alzheimer's and that was a decade of a bullshit death sentence playing out. It is brutal and ugly and never ends well.

    I understand the point being made by Halifax, and agree. But I just can't get past the people with Alzheimer's/dementia in that story. I am definitely pro-compassion, and that means pro-lying to dementia patients. I think the Dr's in the 70's who were all about confronting them with truth and reality lacked empathy and compassion, and were monsters. It's hard to tell someone to fuck themselves for telling the truth, but fuck them for psychologically abusing those poor dementia patients at a point in their lives when they just needed comforting and a peaceful, safe surrounding. Lying absolutely has its place in dementia care. I have no moral struggle with that belief. 

    Trump's lying is an entire different thing. It is unclear to me how much of what he says he believes. I believe he's delusional on some level. I know he's an intentional liar on another level. I guess that combo produces someone who is disengaged from the truth most of the time. If it is because he has dementia, then let's get him into a comfortable care facility and restore our country's dignity and honor. If it is because he has a compulsion to lie, then let's get him out of office and back to his real estate empire where lying like that is the status quo and the recipe for success. Either way, Trump's lying is harmful and in stark contrast to a caregiver's therapeutic fibbing. 
    I’m dealing with it now and at one point, I had to stop reading it. I finished it and I’m not sure yet where I fall. Time will tell but it’s brutal. I just really found the quote about the collapse of societies really timely as we're seeing it happen before our eyes.

    I certainly wouldn’t want to live that way and I hope I remember to OD on my drug(s) of choice, if it comes that way. I can’t begin to imagine what that Dutch facility would cost per month in the US. $15-$20K per month?
    My mother died from Alzheimer's in 2009.  During the last relatively coherent conversation I had with her, she strongly hinted that when she got to the point where she was no longer cognizant and able to make decisions on her own, she wanted to take her own life.  But of course by the time she reached that point, she was no longer cognizant and couldn't think clearly enough to take that action.  Shortly after that, she went into a long term care facility where my father went every day to be with her and we went up there as often as possible to see her.  She spent that last year of her life crying almost all of the time, but was unable to tell us why- not that we couldn't figure out why.   It's a terrible way to die.
    So sorry to hear that Brian. And sorry you're having to deal with it Halifax. It is a horrible thing to have to deal with. We can only do so much. But we can love them, tell them we love them, keep them safe and comfortable to whatever extent possible, and think back on better times and hold on to those memories. 
    Whoa I didn’t realize so many people here have gone/going through this horrible fate of our loved ones..
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,027
    PJ_Soul said:
    jeffbr said:
    brianlux said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    jeffbr said:
    I hadn't seen that New Yorker story. Fuck. That was brutal to read. I just lost my mom a couple of months ago to Alzheimer's and that was a decade of a bullshit death sentence playing out. It is brutal and ugly and never ends well.

    I understand the point being made by Halifax, and agree. But I just can't get past the people with Alzheimer's/dementia in that story. I am definitely pro-compassion, and that means pro-lying to dementia patients. I think the Dr's in the 70's who were all about confronting them with truth and reality lacked empathy and compassion, and were monsters. It's hard to tell someone to fuck themselves for telling the truth, but fuck them for psychologically abusing those poor dementia patients at a point in their lives when they just needed comforting and a peaceful, safe surrounding. Lying absolutely has its place in dementia care. I have no moral struggle with that belief. 

    Trump's lying is an entire different thing. It is unclear to me how much of what he says he believes. I believe he's delusional on some level. I know he's an intentional liar on another level. I guess that combo produces someone who is disengaged from the truth most of the time. If it is because he has dementia, then let's get him into a comfortable care facility and restore our country's dignity and honor. If it is because he has a compulsion to lie, then let's get him out of office and back to his real estate empire where lying like that is the status quo and the recipe for success. Either way, Trump's lying is harmful and in stark contrast to a caregiver's therapeutic fibbing. 
    I’m dealing with it now and at one point, I had to stop reading it. I finished it and I’m not sure yet where I fall. Time will tell but it’s brutal. I just really found the quote about the collapse of societies really timely as we're seeing it happen before our eyes.

    I certainly wouldn’t want to live that way and I hope I remember to OD on my drug(s) of choice, if it comes that way. I can’t begin to imagine what that Dutch facility would cost per month in the US. $15-$20K per month?
    My mother died from Alzheimer's in 2009.  During the last relatively coherent conversation I had with her, she strongly hinted that when she got to the point where she was no longer cognizant and able to make decisions on her own, she wanted to take her own life.  But of course by the time she reached that point, she was no longer cognizant and couldn't think clearly enough to take that action.  Shortly after that, she went into a long term care facility where my father went every day to be with her and we went up there as often as possible to see her.  She spent that last year of her life crying almost all of the time, but was unable to tell us why- not that we couldn't figure out why.   It's a terrible way to die.
    So sorry to hear that Brian. And sorry you're having to deal with it Halifax. It is a horrible thing to have to deal with. We can only do so much. But we can love them, tell them we love them, keep them safe and comfortable to whatever extent possible, and think back on better times and hold on to those memories. 
    And be an advocate for death with dignity laws.

    I'm so sorry to all of you whose loved one died this way. It breaks my heart to hear these stories.
    Thanks for kind words, Allison.

    A former colleague and I did just that in 2015.  We sent to the state capitol for the hearing and were allowed our 5 seconds each to state our opinion (basically yeah or any).  It was such a simple thing to do but lending our voices helped the law pass.  It's a good law with built in protections to avoid abusing it. 

    As for lying, I agree with Hedo- only if it is a harmless "lie" that is said out of kindness and love.  Any other lie is just wrong.  One of the things I think is very cool about John Lydon's books is how he really delves into his ill feelings toward lying- clear back to that Sex Pistols song, "Liar".
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,445
    brianlux said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    jeffbr said:
    I hadn't seen that New Yorker story. Fuck. That was brutal to read. I just lost my mom a couple of months ago to Alzheimer's and that was a decade of a bullshit death sentence playing out. It is brutal and ugly and never ends well.

    I understand the point being made by Halifax, and agree. But I just can't get past the people with Alzheimer's/dementia in that story. I am definitely pro-compassion, and that means pro-lying to dementia patients. I think the Dr's in the 70's who were all about confronting them with truth and reality lacked empathy and compassion, and were monsters. It's hard to tell someone to fuck themselves for telling the truth, but fuck them for psychologically abusing those poor dementia patients at a point in their lives when they just needed comforting and a peaceful, safe surrounding. Lying absolutely has its place in dementia care. I have no moral struggle with that belief. 

    Trump's lying is an entire different thing. It is unclear to me how much of what he says he believes. I believe he's delusional on some level. I know he's an intentional liar on another level. I guess that combo produces someone who is disengaged from the truth most of the time. If it is because he has dementia, then let's get him into a comfortable care facility and restore our country's dignity and honor. If it is because he has a compulsion to lie, then let's get him out of office and back to his real estate empire where lying like that is the status quo and the recipe for success. Either way, Trump's lying is harmful and in stark contrast to a caregiver's therapeutic fibbing. 
    I’m dealing with it now and at one point, I had to stop reading it. I finished it and I’m not sure yet where I fall. Time will tell but it’s brutal. I just really found the quote about the collapse of societies really timely as we're seeing it happen before our eyes.

    I certainly wouldn’t want to live that way and I hope I remember to OD on my drug(s) of choice, if it comes that way. I can’t begin to imagine what that Dutch facility would cost per month in the US. $15-$20K per month?
    My mother died from Alzheimer's in 2009.  During the last relatively coherent conversation I had with her, she strongly hinted that when she got to the point where she was no longer cognizant and able to make decisions on her own, she wanted to take her own life.  But of course by the time she reached that point, she was no longer cognizant and couldn't think clearly enough to take that action.  Shortly after that, she went into a long term care facility where my father went every day to be with her and we went up there as often as possible to see her.  She spent that last year of her life crying almost all of the time, but was unable to tell us why- not that we couldn't figure out why.   It's a terrible way to die.
    I honestly can’t imagine too many worse ways, if any.  So sad. I have yet to experience this and hope I never have to. So tough on everyone. Watching a loved one slip away, day after day, and the helplessness of knowing there is nothing you can do. And for the person with Alz....same thing but it’s happening to you. Damn, now I’m depressed.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 29,525
    I’m losing my mother to Alzheimer’s she’s been suffering from it for the past 5yrs , it’s horrible..
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,445
    josevolution said:
    I’m losing my mother to Alzheimer’s she’s been suffering from it for the past 5yrs , it’s horrible..
    Very sorry for you and your family.  Take care of each other.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 29,525
    cincybearcat said:
    josevolution said:
    I’m losing my mother to Alzheimer’s she’s been suffering from it for the past 5yrs , it’s horrible..
    Very sorry for you and your family.  Take care of each other.
    Thanks friend , today I drive her to the local senior center so she can have some interactions/activities give my dad a brake for a few hrs this affliction has taken all the happiness & joy out of our family...
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 39,020
    edited October 2018
    josevolution said:
    cincybearcat said:
    josevolution said:
    I’m losing my mother to Alzheimer’s she’s been suffering from it for the past 5yrs , it’s horrible..
    Very sorry for you and your family.  Take care of each other.
    Thanks friend , today I drive her to the local senior center so she can have some interactions/activities give my dad a brake for a few hrs this affliction has taken all the happiness & joy out of our family...
    Don’t let it Jose. It’s tough and it sucks but don’t let the disease destroy the happiness and joy your family has. Look for and appreciate the small, silver linings, as few and far between. Try to accept that there’s no blame for there is no fault and you have no control. Just try to do the best you can with what you have. Be there for your pops and even if he never says thank you, he appreciates what your doing even if you think it’s not enough. Give love to your mom as she “knows” some things. Read the New Yorker article as it offers some insights. And be kind to yourself.

    To everyone who’s offered support, thank you. And to those who have gone through it, I’m sorry.

    Last time I saw my mother I’m pretty sure she had no clue who I was or why I brought pizza but she sat down with me and my step dad and ate heartily. As we discussed things, my step dad tells me that my mother has taken to trying to sneak out of bed at night and pace about the house, turning on all the lights. Suddenly my mother blurts out, “and it was fun!” All I could do was laugh and think WTF because she doesn’t know who I am but turning on all the lights in the house in the middle of the night is fun. I thought maybe I should become a light? But most of the time she was expressionless or talked babble. She also went inside for her shoes from the back deck, disappeared for 20 minutes and returned with 3 magazines. Drove home just shaking my head at the day.
     
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  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 29,525
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    josevolution said:
    cincybearcat said:
    josevolution said:
    I’m losing my mother to Alzheimer’s she’s been suffering from it for the past 5yrs , it’s horrible..
    Very sorry for you and your family.  Take care of each other.
    Thanks friend , today I drive her to the local senior center so she can have some interactions/activities give my dad a brake for a few hrs this affliction has taken all the happiness & joy out of our family...
    Don’t let it Jose. It’s tough and it sucks but don’t let the disease destroy the happiness and joy your family has. Look for and appreciate the small, silver linings, as few and far between. Try to accept that there’s no blame for there is no fault and you have no control. Just try to do the best you can with what you have. Be there for your pops and even if he never says thank you, he appreciates what your doing even if you think it’s not enough. Give love to your mom as she “knows” some things. Read the New Yorker article as it offers some insights. And be kind to yourself.

    To everyone who’s offered support, thank you. And to those who have gone through it, I’m sorry.

    Last time I saw my mother I’m pretty sure she had no clue who I was or why I brought pizza but she sat down with me and my step dad and ate heartily. As we discussed things, my step dad tells me that my mother has taken to trying to sneak out of bed at night and pace about the house, turning on all the lights. Suddenly my mother blurts out, “and it was fun!” All I could do was laugh and think WTF because she doesn’t know who I am but turning on all the lights in the house in the middle of the night is fun. I thought maybe I should become a light? But most of the time she was expressionless or talked babble. She also went inside for her shoes from the back deck, disappeared for 20 minutes and returned with 3 magazines. Drove home just shaking my head at the day.
     
    Ah my heart breaks at these scenes you describe, thanks for your encouraging words ...
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 39,020
    Some on here are arguing that if the Dems Ignore the “baskets of “deplorables” and those who “cling to their guns and religion,” that the alleged blue wave may very well turn out to be red. Well, just as likely, the cause will be the low information voter going to the polls, redistricting that favors repub candidates, voter suppression efforts and the disinformation, lies, fear mongering and hatred spread by faux news, rushbo, hannity, Alex Jones and Team Trump Treason. Facts don’t matter anymore and the ability to discern the difference between fact and fiction is sadly lacking.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2018/oct/27/barack-obama-trump-and-other-republicans-just-making-stuff-up-video
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