Vegan, Vegetarian, Carnivor, or Omnivore?

Meltdown99

I get my nutrition from the air.

Jeff Foxworthy used the phrase "you might be a redneck if" ... Hera at the AMT we can have own little game, "you might be a shitty person if".

brianlux

I am mostly vegetarian.

Honest question:  If everyone in the world at as much beef and pork as North Americans do, how long do you think the earth could sustain that behavior?

blackhawks

I am an omnivore.

PJPOWER said:

blackhawks said:

PJPOWER said:

blackhawks said:

Then you are replacing the protein source with another food source that was used to feed the animal.  which means farming for humans which takes petroleum, energy, transportation that is refrigerated, etc.  There is no simple 'go vegetarian' way of saving the planet.  Quit procreating is the best way to start.  Same with climate change.....less people.  Why I did not have kids to be honest (and no woman would have me lol!).  jk

I offset my big farm meat eating by growing my own vegetables and hunting and any beef I consume comes from my family’s small ranch.  Anyone that buys vegetables at the store is a shitty person, as those vegetables were most likely grown using environmentally unfriendly practices.  Anyone that drinks beer is a shitty person as drinking beer leads to lot of environment waste due to the manufacturing of glass/aluminum and the grain could be used to feed people in 3rd world countries, right?  The case could be made that anyone purchasing products from anywhere instead of growing them in their backyard are enabling poor manufacturing practices due to demand.  If you smoke cigarettes, buy plastic of any kind, purchase food from the superior market, drive a car, fly in a plane, use electricity, keep lights on an night (light pollution?), you are a shitty person?  Seems like everyone could be made out to be shitty people if you dig hard enough.  

I am totally with you on factory farming.  I lived rurally a lot of my life growing up in Iowa and I remember when the hog confinements started up.  It was strange and nobody wanted them due to the waste, pollution in ground water/streams, truck traffic.  But greedy farmers would allow them to be placed on their property (of course nowhere near their house but near their neighborhood so they had to deal with the stench).  And to be honest, what kind of life is that for an animal?  At least let them roam for their short life before going to market.  It is animal abuse to me full stop.  It wasn't that way for half of my life at least.  

Completely agree and these farms were trending in my area in the late 90s when people didn’t know how bad they would smell or how bad they were for the environment.  Lately, the biggest culprits have been the dairy and cheese factories.  They move in, drink any wells or aquifers in the area dry, and move out once the resources are gulped up.  If you eat cheese or drink milk, I guess you are a shitty person.

I travel a lot for business into the midwest.  When driving through the beautiful countryside on a hot evening listening to PJ radio nothing ruins it more than the smell of one of those disgusting confinements.  And their smelly sludge lagoons that seep into the ground regardless of the lining they put down.  Just liked it when a farmer could make a living on 300-500 acres instead of 3000-5000 like now.  The little lady and I spend the $ on free range meat and locally raised eggs, etc.  Spending more makes you eat less I have found it.  It kind of corrects itself budget wise.  

brianlux

I am mostly vegetarian.

rgambs

I am an omnivore.

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

Another one for you. 

http://theconversation.com/five-ways-the-meat-on-your-plate-is-killing-the-planet-76128

I feel that it is more about positive farming/ranching practices than taking an extremism point of view on the subject.
 https://www.beefmagazine.com/blog/5-ways-cattle-help-environment

http://www.beefusa.org/ranchingandtheenvironment.aspx

You may feel that way but that doesn’t mean you’re correct. Cattle farming has major environmental impacts and trying to argue it doesn’t is pointless. 

I think the point being argued is that cattle farming CAN be done with far fewer environmental impacts.  Obviously cattle farming for a capitalist market is never going to fit that bill, but sustainable farming systems REQUIRE properly managed ungulates to balance the ecosystem and eliminate the need for chemical and mechanical inputs.

PJPOWER

I am an omnivore.

brianlux said:

Honest question:  If everyone in the world at as much beef and pork as North Americans do, how long do you think the earth could sustain that behavior?

Probably a couple million years depending on technological improvements and whether or not an asteroid hits sooner.  I guess that there would be no starvation at all if “everyone” in the world ate as much beef and pork as North Americans, lol.  What exact aspect of earth are you talking about?  If “everyone” ate that much, then we would need to direct our focus to lessening the beef production carbon footprint as much as possible through either technology or by some other means and tons of money would probably need to be dumped into that field of science.  Regardless, it is an interesting hypothetical , but anyone claiming to have a definitive answer would be just making shit up.

rgambs

I am an omnivore.

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Met a mouse today on my way to work. Wasn't even afraid. Cute.

Have you seriously never thought about how many mice get crushed to death when your veggie fields get plowed every spring?

Wasn't there a major kids movie from our era with just such a plot?

PJPOWER

I am an omnivore.

rgambs said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Met a mouse today on my way to work. Wasn't even afraid. Cute.

Have you seriously never thought about how many mice get crushed to death when your veggie fields get plowed every spring?

Wasn't there a major kids movie from our era with just such a plot?

You could go on further to say that grassland cattle ranches create a great habitat for mice and other animals that is taken away when a crop is plowed or harvested.  It sure seemed to annoy the rabbits when I was driving a tractor plowing up the previous year’s wheat field.  No telling how many bird nests get plowed over.

Meltdown99

I get my nutrition from the air.

Top Meat Consuming Countries In The World

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/top-meat-consuming-countries-in-the-world.html

Looks like Australia has America beat in meat consumption....

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Meltdown99 said:

Top Meat Consuming Countries In The World

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/top-meat-consuming-countries-in-the-world.html

Looks like Australia has America beat in meat consumption....

Let's get 'em.

brianlux

I am mostly vegetarian.

PJPOWER said:

brianlux said:

Honest question:  If everyone in the world at as much beef and pork as North Americans do, how long do you think the earth could sustain that behavior?

Probably a couple million years depending on technological improvements and whether or not an asteroid hits sooner.  I guess that there would be no starvation at all if “everyone” in the world ate as much beef and pork as North Americans, lol.  What exact aspect of earth are you talking about?  If “everyone” ate that much, then we would need to direct our focus to lessening the beef production carbon footprint as much as possible through either technology or by some other means and tons of money would probably need to be dumped into that field of science.  Regardless, it is an interesting hypothetical , but anyone claiming to have a definitive answer would be just making shit up.

Perhaps this article will dispel some of your, ummm, optimistic views:

https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/05/world-already-would-be-out-water-if-everyone-ate-americans/

Some main points made here:

"a calorie of meat requires 10 times as much water to produce as a calorie of food crops"

"As the world’s growing middle classes eat more meat, the earth’s water resources will be dangerously squeezed."

"If the whole world were to move to this standard, global fresh water resources would be exhausted at a population level of 6 billion, which the world reached in the year 2000."

"There is not nearly enough fresh water available to provide this standard to a global population expected to exceed 9 billion by mid-century.”

PJPOWER

I am an omnivore.

brianlux said:

PJPOWER said:

brianlux said:

Honest question:  If everyone in the world at as much beef and pork as North Americans do, how long do you think the earth could sustain that behavior?

Probably a couple million years depending on technological improvements and whether or not an asteroid hits sooner.  I guess that there would be no starvation at all if “everyone” in the world ate as much beef and pork as North Americans, lol.  What exact aspect of earth are you talking about?  If “everyone” ate that much, then we would need to direct our focus to lessening the beef production carbon footprint as much as possible through either technology or by some other means and tons of money would probably need to be dumped into that field of science.  Regardless, it is an interesting hypothetical , but anyone claiming to have a definitive answer would be just making shit up.

Perhaps this article will dispel some of your, ummm, optimistic views:

https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/05/world-already-would-be-out-water-if-everyone-ate-americans/

Some main points made here:

"a calorie of meat requires 10 times as much water to produce as a calorie of food crops"

"As the world’s growing middle classes eat more meat, the earth’s water resources will be dangerously squeezed."

"If the whole world were to move to this standard, global fresh water resources would be exhausted at a population level of 6 billion, which the world reached in the year 2000."

"There is not nearly enough fresh water available to provide this standard to a global population expected to exceed 9 billion by mid-century.”

Humans are resilient:
https://water.usgs.gov/edu/drinkseawater.html
But I agree, the large factory farms that primarily feed corn and other grains drink way more water than they should, plus the meat doesn’t taste near as good as free range.  I would say that the abundance of large operators and loss of small cattle operations has been one of the worst things for the beef market (in terms of the environment).  Personally I haven’t purchased beef from a supermarket in over 15 years...I do enjoy a burger or steak from a good restaurant occasionally, though, I admit.

Meltdown99

I get my nutrition from the air.

brianlux said:

PJPOWER said:

brianlux said:

Honest question:  If everyone in the world at as much beef and pork as North Americans do, how long do you think the earth could sustain that behavior?

Probably a couple million years depending on technological improvements and whether or not an asteroid hits sooner.  I guess that there would be no starvation at all if “everyone” in the world ate as much beef and pork as North Americans, lol.  What exact aspect of earth are you talking about?  If “everyone” ate that much, then we would need to direct our focus to lessening the beef production carbon footprint as much as possible through either technology or by some other means and tons of money would probably need to be dumped into that field of science.  Regardless, it is an interesting hypothetical , but anyone claiming to have a definitive answer would be just making shit up.

Perhaps this article will dispel some of your, ummm, optimistic views:

https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/05/world-already-would-be-out-water-if-everyone-ate-americans/

Some main points made here:

"a calorie of meat requires 10 times as much water to produce as a calorie of food crops"

"As the world’s growing middle classes eat more meat, the earth’s water resources will be dangerously squeezed."

"If the whole world were to move to this standard, global fresh water resources would be exhausted at a population level of 6 billion, which the world reached in the year 2000."

"There is not nearly enough fresh water available to provide this standard to a global population expected to exceed 9 billion by mid-century.”

For the population of Canada, we are not running out of water.  May I suggest, those regions of the world that might be low on water change their habits.  Do not expect us to change just because your resources are running low.

PJ_Soul

I am an omnivore.

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mcgruff10 said:

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

People who without qualms choose meat in 2018 are shitty people.

Trying to choose vegan when possible, but most often vegetarian. More shitty than I wish.

I only found US data quick.... but 3.2% of the US is vegetarian (only like 0.5% of those are vegan). So 96.8% eat meat. That’s a lot of shitty people 

I made a killer London broil last night on the grill (marinated it with garlic and soy sauce for 24 hours). I told my kids they are all shitty for eating this. They ignored me and asked for seconds. 

So you're raising your kids badly, when you don't have to.

You totally crossing a line here man. Not cool at all. You need to get over yourself when it comes to this topic - you're being so fucking insulting and inappropriate by saying that about someone's parenting because they are preparing them food. Holy shit.

brianlux

I am mostly vegetarian.

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

PJPOWER said:

brianlux said:

Honest question:  If everyone in the world at as much beef and pork as North Americans do, how long do you think the earth could sustain that behavior?

Probably a couple million years depending on technological improvements and whether or not an asteroid hits sooner.  I guess that there would be no starvation at all if “everyone” in the world ate as much beef and pork as North Americans, lol.  What exact aspect of earth are you talking about?  If “everyone” ate that much, then we would need to direct our focus to lessening the beef production carbon footprint as much as possible through either technology or by some other means and tons of money would probably need to be dumped into that field of science.  Regardless, it is an interesting hypothetical , but anyone claiming to have a definitive answer would be just making shit up.

Perhaps this article will dispel some of your, ummm, optimistic views:

https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/05/world-already-would-be-out-water-if-everyone-ate-americans/

Some main points made here:

"a calorie of meat requires 10 times as much water to produce as a calorie of food crops"

"As the world’s growing middle classes eat more meat, the earth’s water resources will be dangerously squeezed."

"If the whole world were to move to this standard, global fresh water resources would be exhausted at a population level of 6 billion, which the world reached in the year 2000."

"There is not nearly enough fresh water available to provide this standard to a global population expected to exceed 9 billion by mid-century.”

For the population of Canada, we are not running out of water.  May I suggest, those regions of the world that might be low on water change their habits.  Do not expect us to change just because your resources are running low.

Your world is burning to, remember?  It's all connected.

PJ_Soul

I am an omnivore.

PJPOWER said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

Another one for you. 

http://theconversation.com/five-ways-the-meat-on-your-plate-is-killing-the-planet-76128

I feel that it is more about positive farming/ranching practices than taking an extremism point of view on the subject.
 https://www.beefmagazine.com/blog/5-ways-cattle-help-environment

http://www.beefusa.org/ranchingandtheenvironment.aspx

You may feel that way but that doesn’t mean you’re correct. Cattle farming has major environmental impacts and trying to argue it doesn’t is pointless. 

Why dismiss my comments without even reading the articles?  Hypocrite?

"beefmagazine", "beefusa"

Sounds unbiased. 

Of course it’s biased, that doesn’t mean it is incorrect.  Vegetarian promoting sites aren’t biased?  Now, can you please post another stupid meme, pretty please?  Everyone here loves people that cannot think for themselves and post memes every other post...

These are both true things. Vegetarian publications tend to be super biased, and so are meat industry publications. As well as proponents for both. And all those documentaries about the horrors of the food industry and health effects of it are crazy biased too - many at least flirt with fake news. I think that the truth lies somewhere in the middle when it comes to these things. One has to be sure to consume info from both sides of the matter, and from in between. That's the only way a person's going to find something close to truth here.

brianlux

I am mostly vegetarian.

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

Another one for you. 

http://theconversation.com/five-ways-the-meat-on-your-plate-is-killing-the-planet-76128

I feel that it is more about positive farming/ranching practices than taking an extremism point of view on the subject.
 https://www.beefmagazine.com/blog/5-ways-cattle-help-environment

http://www.beefusa.org/ranchingandtheenvironment.aspx

You may feel that way but that doesn’t mean you’re correct. Cattle farming has major environmental impacts and trying to argue it doesn’t is pointless. 

Why dismiss my comments without even reading the articles?  Hypocrite?

"beefmagazine", "beefusa"

Sounds unbiased. 

Of course it’s biased, that doesn’t mean it is incorrect.  Vegetarian promoting sites aren’t biased?  Now, can you please post another stupid meme, pretty please?  Everyone here loves people that cannot think for themselves and post memes every other post...

These are both true things. Vegetarian publications tend to be super biased, and so are meat industry publications. As well as proponents for both. And all those documentaries about the horrors of the food industry and health effects of it are crazy biased too - many at least flirt with fake news. I think that the truth lies somewhere in the middle when it comes to these things. One has to be sure to consume info from both sides of the matter, and from in between. That's the only way a person's going to find something close to truth here.

What you're saying is true to some degree, can't argue that.  But those photos I posted are not bias- they are reality.  I did not take those photographs but I could have.  I've seen places like that in a number of places.  They are disgusting and inhumane to the extreme.

PJPOWER

I am an omnivore.

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

Another one for you. 

http://theconversation.com/five-ways-the-meat-on-your-plate-is-killing-the-planet-76128

I feel that it is more about positive farming/ranching practices than taking an extremism point of view on the subject.
 https://www.beefmagazine.com/blog/5-ways-cattle-help-environment

http://www.beefusa.org/ranchingandtheenvironment.aspx

You may feel that way but that doesn’t mean you’re correct. Cattle farming has major environmental impacts and trying to argue it doesn’t is pointless. 

Why dismiss my comments without even reading the articles?  Hypocrite?

"beefmagazine", "beefusa"

Sounds unbiased. 

Of course it’s biased, that doesn’t mean it is incorrect.  Vegetarian promoting sites aren’t biased?  Now, can you please post another stupid meme, pretty please?  Everyone here loves people that cannot think for themselves and post memes every other post...

These are both true things. Vegetarian publications tend to be super biased, and so are meat industry publications. As well as proponents for both. And all those documentaries about the horrors of the food industry and health effects of it are crazy biased too - many at least flirt with fake news. I think that the truth lies somewhere in the middle when it comes to these things. One has to be sure to consume info from both sides of the matter, and from in between. That's the only way a person's going to find something close to truth here.

Agreed, 100% . That’s like a breakthrough for us Pjsoul, lol

PJ_Soul

I am an omnivore.

brianlux said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

Another one for you. 

http://theconversation.com/five-ways-the-meat-on-your-plate-is-killing-the-planet-76128

I feel that it is more about positive farming/ranching practices than taking an extremism point of view on the subject.
 https://www.beefmagazine.com/blog/5-ways-cattle-help-environment

http://www.beefusa.org/ranchingandtheenvironment.aspx

You may feel that way but that doesn’t mean you’re correct. Cattle farming has major environmental impacts and trying to argue it doesn’t is pointless. 

Why dismiss my comments without even reading the articles?  Hypocrite?

"beefmagazine", "beefusa"

Sounds unbiased. 

Of course it’s biased, that doesn’t mean it is incorrect.  Vegetarian promoting sites aren’t biased?  Now, can you please post another stupid meme, pretty please?  Everyone here loves people that cannot think for themselves and post memes every other post...

These are both true things. Vegetarian publications tend to be super biased, and so are meat industry publications. As well as proponents for both. And all those documentaries about the horrors of the food industry and health effects of it are crazy biased too - many at least flirt with fake news. I think that the truth lies somewhere in the middle when it comes to these things. One has to be sure to consume info from both sides of the matter, and from in between. That's the only way a person's going to find something close to truth here.

What you're saying is true to some degree, can't argue that.  But those photos I posted are not bias- they are reality.  I did not take those photographs but I could have.  I've seen places like that in a number of places.  They are disgusting and inhumane to the extreme.

I didn't see any photos you posted, but obviously I've seen loads of horrifying photos and videos from the meat industry, especially as someone who is a strong supporter of IFAW, and I obviously would never argue against animal welfare and humane farming practices. That isn't what my argument was.
The government has to completely revamp how it regulates the meat industry, clearly.

brianlux

I am mostly vegetarian.

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

Another one for you. 

http://theconversation.com/five-ways-the-meat-on-your-plate-is-killing-the-planet-76128

I feel that it is more about positive farming/ranching practices than taking an extremism point of view on the subject.
 https://www.beefmagazine.com/blog/5-ways-cattle-help-environment

http://www.beefusa.org/ranchingandtheenvironment.aspx

You may feel that way but that doesn’t mean you’re correct. Cattle farming has major environmental impacts and trying to argue it doesn’t is pointless. 

Why dismiss my comments without even reading the articles?  Hypocrite?

"beefmagazine", "beefusa"

Sounds unbiased. 

Of course it’s biased, that doesn’t mean it is incorrect.  Vegetarian promoting sites aren’t biased?  Now, can you please post another stupid meme, pretty please?  Everyone here loves people that cannot think for themselves and post memes every other post...

These are both true things. Vegetarian publications tend to be super biased, and so are meat industry publications. As well as proponents for both. And all those documentaries about the horrors of the food industry and health effects of it are crazy biased too - many at least flirt with fake news. I think that the truth lies somewhere in the middle when it comes to these things. One has to be sure to consume info from both sides of the matter, and from in between. That's the only way a person's going to find something close to truth here.

What you're saying is true to some degree, can't argue that.  But those photos I posted are not bias- they are reality.  I did not take those photographs but I could have.  I've seen places like that in a number of places.  They are disgusting and inhumane to the extreme.

I didn't see any photos you posted, but obviously I've seen loads of horrifying photos and videos from the meat industry, especially as someone who is a strong supporter of IFAW, and I obviously would never argue against animal welfare and humane farming practices. That isn't what my argument was.
The government has to completely revamp how it regulates the meat industry, clearly.

I get what you're saying about biased reporting.  The simple truth I'm trying to express is that 7.44 billion people cannot consume meat at the rate north Americans do and expect no disastrous consequences. And first world nations cannot expect developing nations to not take up our habits.

It's all connected and right now, were headed for a disaster of our own making.  Perhaps that is what we need.  Sad to think that.