Jobs at risk due to automation - what to do?

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  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    cincybearcat said:
    brianlux said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    I refuse to use the automatic ordering system at McDonalds.  It's also not faster, I've seen people start their order before me and I've got my food before them.  It's far easier to tell a person what I want than a machine. 
    Same thing for me at the check out stand at the grocery store.  I like having real people to talk to instead of some dumb machine saying, "Welcome to Raleys, have you inserted you club card yet?" 
    I find I’m way more capable then most of the people doing that job, so I prefer self checkout 
    Agreed, especially when I have my screaming toddler with me, lol. Way faster usually!
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 43,077
    You know who use those automated checkout lines the most? The idiots that can’t ring you up properly at a grocery store or supermarket. You want an exercise in frustration? Get stuck behind a few of those fools or have someone start ringing their shit as you’re bagging yours. 
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  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,892
    benjs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJPOWER said:
    I can totally see why some fast food employers would automate certain jobs if it was logistically cost saving and more efficient.  Kiosks do not require health insurance, do not complain of low wages, and could help avoid a lawsuit or two.  This is nothing new, though.  Many different aspects of agriculture, for instance, now use automated machines to help with harvest, milk cattle, etc.  It is a changing world and people will either adapt or get left behind...as always.
    I'm not sure it's as simple as that this time. If there are simply not enough jobs to go around because of AI and automation (and don't think this will only end the kind of work you're talking about - it will hit highly educated and skilled people too), then just saying people have to adjust and do something else just doesn't cut it. We could quite easily get to the point where 100% of all available jobs are filled, and still have a 25% unemployment rate or higher, across a vast number of sectors. That is why it's up to government to get ahead of this entire concept, and get incredibly creative.... Unfortunately, with the conservative attitude discussed in that article cincybearcat posted above, I don't have a whole lot of faith in them doing that in North America. I think Western Europe is going to win this race easily, then Asia... Which could certainly be a major factor, if not the main factor, in America's inevitable tumble from being the global leader that is has been for the past 70 years.... Unless the government's mindset changes dramatically... Will be interesting to see how the new generation of politicians will look at this issue. We're still largely struggling under the baby boomers' yoke IMO, so really we have to wait until they're dead before really being able to assess where we're going in North America in terms of changing the way the economy works in the face of AI and automation. One thing I feel confident about is that it's going to be a disaster if the plan is reactionary rather than proactive.
    PJ_Soul, something my mind always goes back to is that unskilled workers represent the masses, and while I agree that machine learning and automation will impact educated and/or skilled workers, the first impact will be seen on the masses, which means an enormous impact on consumer spending and the economy at large. Businesses seeking a richer bottom-line won't consider this long-term impact of what they'll call cost containment, and America will bear a newfound unemployment epidemic. Then does the government attempt to make a business case for investing in creating new jobs (without guaranteeing that there's a market for the product from the new labour first and risking failure)? Embrace socialist ideals and distribute money to reach the universal basic income? Suffer an unemployment and homelessness wave across the nation? Disappear them? They all seem so unlikely to succeed.
    I think responding to this the same way Roosevelt reacted to the Great Depression (which was a good idea at the time) would be a complete disaster, and I'd be pretty surprised if the governments of today would be that stupid... Even if they were, it wouldn't work at all, since investing in creating new jobs would be rendered moot by the new technologies we're discussing. I mean, they would literally be funding busy work. It's the equivalent of a business owner seeing that their staff has nothing to do and then throwing out the broom and making them get down on their hands and knees to pick up the little bits of dirt off the floor with their hands. I can't imagine that kind of plan would work on any level, and it would very quickly create crisis-level morale issues across the workforce.

    So what would it take for a society that has wiped out a huge number of jobs to really make universal income work long term? Taking into consideration the idea that people wouldn't just take the money and sit on the sofa all day - an idea I tend to believe in - it's definitely theoretically possible. Yes indeed, it would require government to jack up corporate taxation rates very dramatically, but that shouldn't be a problem since that would all be money that business is saving by not having all those employees. Theoretically, business would not lose money on the deal at all. Those taxes would then be redistributed to the population to replace those salaries to allow the population to continue spending so those same corps and businesses continue to earn a profit. At the end of the day this isn't technically much different from what happens now. Business earns money, gives it to the population (workers), and the population gives it right back to business. Money moves in an endless circle either way.

    So now the only problem is the idea that many people would be getting money for doing nothing.... But I don't think that would be the case assuming the appropriate cultural shift happened (allowing for some small percentage of people who are just lazy fucks). Suddenly people who aren't members of the traditional work force would be free to spend their time actually doing stuff that is aimed towards personal and community enrichment (under some kind of public management system), OR doing those jobs within business/government/public sector that can't be replaced by technology (perhaps for no direct salary as well??) .... I realize this would take a major psychological shift in the population of course, like to the point where it would almost have to be aliens operating under such a system. It would also require a complete reworking of how higher education is funded, assuming universal basic incomes aren't so high that anyone can pay tuition (free higher education is certainly the ultimate ideal in this scenario). People's thinking about what brings value to a person and what they do would have to change dramatically. And I think art and volunteerism and humanism would have to become much more highly regarded in society for any of this to work... and I don't have faith in any current capitalist societies to get on board, unfortunately. Unemployment and homelessness and a gaping chasm between the rich and everyone else (even bigger than now) will appear. It find it basically impossible to believe that societies would be able to readjust to this extent. But I think it's useful to at least hypothesize in this utopic kind of way - it ultimately pinpoints all the issues that have to be considered.

    The next possibility is if molecular synthesis (chemical and organic) becomes a reality, causing all material want and need to be irrelevant. That would render capitalism and every other economic system in the world completely moot, and everyone could then pursue higher goals and greed would basically become pointless (though power would still be something to chase) ..... Welcome to Star Trek: The Next Generation. =)

    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,892
    cincybearcat said:
    brianlux said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    I refuse to use the automatic ordering system at McDonalds.  It's also not faster, I've seen people start their order before me and I've got my food before them.  It's far easier to tell a person what I want than a machine. 
    Same thing for me at the check out stand at the grocery store.  I like having real people to talk to instead of some dumb machine saying, "Welcome to Raleys, have you inserted you club card yet?" 
    I find I’m way more capable then most of the people doing that job, so I prefer self checkout 
    I like self checkout because I don't bag my groceries like an idiot, as some cashiers do. Although when a cashier does bag my stuff properly, I am happier having gone with the human.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 10,024
    PJ_Soul said:
    cincybearcat said:
    brianlux said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    I refuse to use the automatic ordering system at McDonalds.  It's also not faster, I've seen people start their order before me and I've got my food before them.  It's far easier to tell a person what I want than a machine. 
    Same thing for me at the check out stand at the grocery store.  I like having real people to talk to instead of some dumb machine saying, "Welcome to Raleys, have you inserted you club card yet?" 
    I find I’m way more capable then most of the people doing that job, so I prefer self checkout 
    I like self checkout because I don't bag my groceries like an idiot, as some cashiers do. Although when a cashier does bag my stuff properly, I am happier having gone with the human.
    I am often disappointed in myself in how poorly I bag my own groceries. 
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,892
    mace1229 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    cincybearcat said:
    brianlux said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    I refuse to use the automatic ordering system at McDonalds.  It's also not faster, I've seen people start their order before me and I've got my food before them.  It's far easier to tell a person what I want than a machine. 
    Same thing for me at the check out stand at the grocery store.  I like having real people to talk to instead of some dumb machine saying, "Welcome to Raleys, have you inserted you club card yet?" 
    I find I’m way more capable then most of the people doing that job, so I prefer self checkout 
    I like self checkout because I don't bag my groceries like an idiot, as some cashiers do. Although when a cashier does bag my stuff properly, I am happier having gone with the human.
    I am often disappointed in myself in how poorly I bag my own groceries. 
    :lol:
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,435
    mace1229 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    cincybearcat said:
    brianlux said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    I refuse to use the automatic ordering system at McDonalds.  It's also not faster, I've seen people start their order before me and I've got my food before them.  It's far easier to tell a person what I want than a machine. 
    Same thing for me at the check out stand at the grocery store.  I like having real people to talk to instead of some dumb machine saying, "Welcome to Raleys, have you inserted you club card yet?" 
    I find I’m way more capable then most of the people doing that job, so I prefer self checkout 
    I like self checkout because I don't bag my groceries like an idiot, as some cashiers do. Although when a cashier does bag my stuff properly, I am happier having gone with the human.
    I am often disappointed in myself in how poorly I bag my own groceries. 
    Amen. Not to stereotype, but I think it's because I'm a man. I've rarely seen a man who has natural instincts in spatial awareness or strategizing the way women do. Just one of many skills I feel women are more likely to possess than men!
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Isn't bagging just common sense?  Don't put glass jars or canned shit on top of squishables.

    And I swear men are better at spatial skills; mine absolutely suck!
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    mace1229 said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    I refuse to use the automatic ordering system at McDonalds.  It's also not faster, I've seen people start their order before me and I've got my food before them.  It's far easier to tell a person what I want than a machine. 
    Thats probably because it is new. What do you think the the employee is doing? Just pushing the same buttons as the customer, their cash registers are just pictures. Once this becomes standard and everyone has done it a few times it will be even faster. Instead of telling someone what buttons to push for you, you just do it yourself.
    I was at a McDs a few weeks ago and they had signs all over the front counter that they do not take orders anymore, must be done from the kiosk. A few people came up and placed orders anyway, I'm not sure if they didn't see the 10 different signs or just ignored them. But I feel within a couple years this will be normal, and once it is normal it will be faster. 

    Think of those states who aren't allowed to pump their own gas. If someone who has never done it before pulls up to a self-service pump, its going to take a while to figure it out. Someone who has always pumped their own gas gets annoyed waiting on someone else to do it for them, its faster to just get out and do it myself. 
    It's not that new...been in my local McDonalds 2 years.  More people still line at the cash register than the automatic ordering.  Same thing as the grocer stores have scan your own checkouts, still most people get in line where the human cashier is.
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739

    brianlux said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    I refuse to use the automatic ordering system at McDonalds.  It's also not faster, I've seen people start their order before me and I've got my food before them.  It's far easier to tell a person what I want than a machine. 
    Same thing for me at the check out stand at the grocery store.  I like having real people to talk to instead of some dumb machine saying, "Welcome to Raleys, have you inserted you club card yet?" 
    Agreed.  I also like paying cash small purchase's.  I only ever get a coffee and muffin from Mcdonald's, sometimes fries...so I'm debiting small purchase.
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,892
    edited April 2018
    That is exactly why the human cashiers are going to totally go away soon. These corporations don't give that much of a shit if the customers prefer the humans. It saves them money, and they are just itching to replace all the people they can with technology... They are simply kind of looking back and forth anxiously to gauge when the best time is to make a complete switch compared to their competitors (and probably all have their eyes trained on these new Amazon in-person stores too - that is 100% going to take off over the next 5 years I think - no more stopping to pay for anything ever! That is very appealing to me, besides all the lost jobs of course). And I'm sure they are also often just waiting for the next generation of the machines to be ready, since they don't want to have to replace what's available now too soon.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    In Canada I can only think of 3 retailers that have automatic checkouts, Zehr's, The Superstore, WaL Mart...I'm sure there are others.  Canadian Tire used to, they removed theirs...automatic check outs have been around awhile, they haven't exactly taken us by storm.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-cV68JmpiI
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    In Ontario if you sell alcohol you have to have checkouts open with a cashier ... unless the computer can be smart serve trained...LOL.
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,892
    edited April 2018
    Meltdown99 said:
    In Canada I can only think of 3 retailers that have automatic checkouts, Zehr's, The Superstore, WaL Mart...I'm sure there are others.  Canadian Tire used to, they removed theirs...automatic check outs have been around awhile, they haven't exactly taken us by storm.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-cV68JmpiI
    I'm not sure where you live, but where I live literally all of the major grocery stores have them. Safeway, Save-On-Foods, Superstore and all their subsidiaries besides YIG, Thrifty Foods, IGA, Nester's, Whole Foods ... Plus Walmart of course, as you mentioned. I'm sure other stores I don't go to have them too.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,435
    edited April 2018
    Meltdown99 said:
    In Canada I can only think of 3 retailers that have automatic checkouts, Zehr's, The Superstore, WaL Mart...I'm sure there are others.  Canadian Tire used to, they removed theirs...automatic check outs have been around awhile, they haven't exactly taken us by storm.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-cV68JmpiI
    Weird. I live in Toronto, and see automatic check-out at every single Loblaw's or Shoppers Drug Mart I've been to in the last six months, and have a better experience in the automatic check-out line every time. Restaurants are also working with Ritual and UberEats to allow customers to place their orders in advance (labour reduction for cashiers), which indirectly has the same impact. If they haven't taken you by storm, they just haven't taken you by storm yet. 

    Edit: And as for Canadian Tire - that's got to be the worst run business I can recall. Mismanagement at every location I've ever been to, regardless of department or service required.
    Post edited by benjs on
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,892
    edited April 2018
    Starbucks is doing it too - you can just order and pay online via their app shortly before you get there, walk in and pick up your order. Some Tim Horton's outlets are doing it as well.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    PJ_Soul said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    In Canada I can only think of 3 retailers that have automatic checkouts, Zehr's, The Superstore, WaL Mart...I'm sure there are others.  Canadian Tire used to, they removed theirs...automatic check outs have been around awhile, they haven't exactly taken us by storm.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-cV68JmpiI
    I'm not sure where you live, but where I live literally all of the major grocery stores have them. Safeway, Save-On-Foods, Superstore and all their subsidiaries besides YIG, Thrifty Foods, IGA, Nester's, Whole Foods ... Plus Walmart of course, as you mentioned. I'm sure other stores I don't go to have them too.
    Windsor...I'm sure there are others.  I've never been to a shopper with auto check-out, but that might be up to the franchisee...More and more stores are selling beer and wine, so those stores have to keep human cashiers...
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739

    PJ_Soul said:
    Starbucks is doing it too - you can just order and pay online via their app shortly before you get there, walk in and pick up your order. Some Tim Horton's outlets are doing it as well.
    Wouldn't know about Starbucks ... I know Tims is doing that, Dominoes does that as well, with dominos you get the option to pay in-store, which I always choose...
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,892
    edited April 2018
    Meltdown99 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    In Canada I can only think of 3 retailers that have automatic checkouts, Zehr's, The Superstore, WaL Mart...I'm sure there are others.  Canadian Tire used to, they removed theirs...automatic check outs have been around awhile, they haven't exactly taken us by storm.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-cV68JmpiI
    I'm not sure where you live, but where I live literally all of the major grocery stores have them. Safeway, Save-On-Foods, Superstore and all their subsidiaries besides YIG, Thrifty Foods, IGA, Nester's, Whole Foods ... Plus Walmart of course, as you mentioned. I'm sure other stores I don't go to have them too.
    Windsor...I'm sure there are others.  I've never been to a shopper with auto check-out, but that might be up to the franchisee...More and more stores are selling beer and wine, so those stores have to keep human cashiers...
    Well there still aren't any stores in Canada, as far as I know, that are 100% cashier free. Only that Amazon store in Seattle has managed that so far, as a prototype. Have you seen any stores or shops with literally no cashiers??
    The beer and wine sales issue isn't really relevant at this point in time. When other stores all start going 100% cashierless (either self checkouts or just walk in and take what you want and walk out), then yeah, I'm guessing that if booze is being purchased that will be one dedicated human cashier to deal with those purchases ... at least until they figure out how to automate that too. Though it would likely have to involve some kind of biometric IDing system, like eye scanning or fingerprint scanning or something like that... That's much farther off just due to privacy and security issues, and because it involves the government so much more.... India is actually already doing this, but at these early stages it's apparently quite the clusterfuck... although having more than a billion people to try and do it for probably makes it that much more difficult.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited April 2018
    Meltdown99 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    Starbucks is doing it too - you can just order and pay online via their app shortly before you get there, walk in and pick up your order. Some Tim Horton's outlets are doing it as well.
    Wouldn't know about Starbucks ... I know Tims is doing that, Dominoes does that as well, with dominos you get the option to pay in-store, which I always choose...
    I often pay in-store when ordering pizzas just because I like taking a look at the pie before actually purchasing it.  If it’s a shitty looking job, you can either say “fuck it, i’m going elsewhere” or just ask them to fix whatever mistake was made before finalizing the purchase.  Maybe i’m a bit of a pizza snob, lol
    21st century problems...haha
    Post edited by PJPOWER on

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