Seems like a lot of people knew and did nothing. Joe Paterno was fired and disgraced for the same sort of thing.
Yes... as is the case throughout society. I don't think that people knowing and doing nothing is news at all. That is the norm when it comes to this kind of thing. The good thing about high profile incidents of this incredibly common problem is that it throws light on the fact that the problem is rampant everywhere.... I'm sure there must be a lot of people in normal life rethinking their decisions to stay silent about someone they know who sexually harasses or abuses people. I must say that I don't like this overriding attitude of "Hollywood is so fucked up" in this context, as though there is something exceptional about it. No. Hollywood is actually just like so many other industries in our society. It simply has a bigger spotlight on it.
Wherever there is a lot of money/ power/ opportunity to protect, people will be quiet. I hope that that is going to change, but I'm not optimistic. I know damn well that plenty of these predators still are out there, making money for themselves and others, while their bad acts are overlooked or covered up.
Not even. This happens in ALL walks of life. Lots of money and power are not prerequisites at all. I mean, I have experienced both sexual harassment and sexual assault many times in my life, and money and power were NEVER factors.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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curmudgeoness
Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 3,226
Are you female?? If so, then I'd argue that power absolutely was a factor each and every time. Actually, I'd say the same thing if you are male.
Did you report each and every time it happened? If not, why not? Because you didn't want the grilling and questions about your reputation and what you were doing/ wearing? The questions that maybe you had invited it? Maybe you were leading him on? Did you keep quiet because you were afraid of repercussions at work or school? Because you thought you were not the perfect victim? Or because you know the dismal statistics on how many of these cases actually lead to a conviction? Then it absolutely was about power.
Did you successfully fight off and disable your attacker when you were assaulted? If not then it absolutely was about power.
Sexual assault is not about fucking or fuckability. It is about power -- one person's ability to overpower another person, to take something they want without permission/ consent. If we say that it is not about power, that allows the the same damn argument that Agent Orange used last year to dispute allegations against him to creep back in: "Sexual assault?!? Really? I mean, did you look at her? I don't think so, folks!" That's a big reason why I never reported it; I figured nobody would believe I was attractive enough that anyone would force themselves on me. It's past time for that myth to die.
Sexual harassment also is about power, one party having the power to behave hurtfully toward another with impunity. The harasser might be older, a teacher, employer, mentor, family member -- or maybe they're just physically stronger. Maybe they operate in an environment where "boys will be boys!" is the prevailing attitude, and anyone who speaks out is told to loosen up, toughen up, smile more, learn to be more of a team player. That's still power -- social power.
Do you think twice about going out alone at night? Do you park near the door/ under a light/ away from vans? Have you internalized the message that you must stride confidently to your car, keys at the ready (in defensive position), on alert for any sign of trouble? Are you afraid to go for a run alone? Do the men you know behave the same way? Do they make their decisions from a position of defensiveness? This also is about power -- physical power, and societal messaging that tells us 1) be afraid; 2) be prepared; 3) if something happens, it's actually your fault, maybe you should have thought before going to the store for milk/ running outdoors instead of sticking to an elliptical/ working the night shift. Those messages, implicitly or explicitly, seek to place limits on women's behavior and movements. That's power at work.
Serial predators -- O'Reilly, Weinstein, Cosby, Sandusky (Penn State), Toback, and the many others who are well-known but not yet publicly accused -- wield a lot of power and influence and are responsible for generating a LOT of revenue, and many people prioritize protecting their cash cows over protecting the victims. But there are many smaller sharks out there who are happy to leverage their insignificant but relative power.
All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
I am female. I am obviously the expert on what the dynamics were in my own experiences. I can't say I appreciate you telling me what the power dynamics were in my own experiences of sexual harassment and assault.
And sorry, I thought it was clear that I wasn't talking about "power" as in sexual abuse being a power issue rather than a sex issue. I do know that very well, but that isn't at all what I meant, and I don't think that is what was meant in the post I was replying to either. I was talking about money and power in the context that I thought it was clearly being discussed in, i.e. MONEY and POWER in the sense that the person literally has power over you outside of the sexual harassment. I meant that the people weren't my bosses and weren't in positions of power over me. I feel like you kind of took my post out of context.
And sorry, I don't understand your second paragraph. Are you saying that if someone does fight off and disable their attacker it isn't about power?
As for the rest.... FWIW, not one single person has ever "gotten away" with treating me that way without some kind of consequence, though I have never contacted police, for various reasons, and none of those reasons were about my own feelings and emotions. They were all logistical reasons, i.e. I didn't think there was any point at the time because I didn't believe there was any way to find the people or prove anything. I feel fine about every decision I've ever made as far as that goes, except for a couple cases where, in current times, calling the police would be appropriate. But when it happened, it wouldn't have been. Times have changed (for the better for once). Also, not a single one of those people were in any actual position of power over me. Some of them were complete strangers. Some of them were peers and/or equal co-workers.
Finally, FWIW, I have never in my life felt like a victim. No, I do not think twice about going out at night alone, but I do always carry a discreet weapon in my hand when I do (it is always in my purse), not because I feel scared, but because I am simply not the type to think "it won't happen to me" (since it has!). Better safe than sorry, no matter how safe I feel. I think it's just stupid for a woman to walk around alone at night without a single means of defense, no matter how safe and secure she feels. I live car free, so being out at night alone is a very normal thing for me and I am not scared or nervous unless I have a specific reason to be (and yes, I have been attacked while out at night alone ... I got the guy who grabbed me with my weapon and they took off. They had been trying to kidnap me and presumably gang rape me - I was about 23 years old). I have always stood up for myself, and, whenever possible, I have outed the fucker who was screwing with me. I have had people fired for sexually harassing me a couple of times, back when I worked in the hospitality industry.
I think a lot of people assume any woman who has had such things happen to them must have had a hard time dealing with it (kind of like a lot of people assume that any woman who has had an abortion must be emotionally impacted). I am actually not emotionally disturbed by any of these incidents at all. I have always walked away feeling stronger than I probably did before it happened (I should note that I am somewhat physically powerful and intimidating in female terms. I think things must be harder for smaller women or women who have a more... ?gentle? persona, and I think also men target them more often and persist longer in a fight because they think they have a better chance with them). However, I can see how it would be very disturbing if someone in a position of power had done it to me.... I know for a fact that I wouldn't find it difficult at all to go after anyone in that position who did that to me. I would actually find it extremely satisfying. I am not, though, in a make it or break it profession. Perhaps I would feel differently if I were put in that particular position.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Oh, with regard to the fact that women are the ones who are made to feel like they are the ones who have to do everything to prevent attacks... yes, that is true, and it makes me EXTREMELY angry, because meanwhile, men aren't doing shit to prevent the attacks from happening in the first place, as a group. I think men, if they care at all about this issue and the fact that almost all victims are women and almost all perpetrators are men (not in the sense that I hate men - I don't at all), should be on a huge, constant campaign to absolutely shame the fuck out of any guy who says or does inappropriate things as a matter of course, but, of course, most do not, for various shitty reasons.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Polanski is a sick fuck, but damned if I watch Rosemary's Baby whenever it's on. Or What's Up, Tiger Lily.
I have a question about the NDA's that are now being broken.
(and yet AGAIN it fucking sucks to have to put a disclaimer on this that I think Weinstein and those who have acted / still behave as he has are beyond pieces of utterly stinky shit)
Is something - not even necessarily money but I assume so - given in exchange for signatures on those docs?
This whole thing has opened the door on questions for me.
As to being sexually harrassed, assaulted, the whole motherfucking gamut, been through it myself. And I know, appreciate, many (so many!) men who would never tolerate this. Who have taught or are teaching their children, no matter son nor daughter, this shit is unacceptable.
And....as to power. It is, to me, what it is. Money, control, ego = how people shit on others. The venue in which it occurs means nothing. It's about character.
I wrote this a couple of years ago about something that happened to me. Mild in comparison to some stories, still creepy. Recently I wanted to come forward and name this man (my parents have passed away) and thought maybe I should run that idea by my attorney first. He said no way should I name him or he could sue me. I didn't report it, it's he said, she said. It makes me mad - I didn't do anything wrong.
A friend wrote this piece and she's now ready to name her abuser. (She wrote the piece under a pseudonym.) (Both of us work in Hollywod, btw, but have never had any contact with Harvey Weinstein although we both heard he was a real asshole - neither of us heard about the sexual abuse though.)
It's interesting to see the past catch up with powerful people. Social media is exposing what has been covered up from the beginning of time. Women are finally coming out and making public accusations. I'm thinking there are a lot of famous men out there that are thinking "oh, shit" and looking over their shoulders.
"If a woman wears sexually suggestive clothing around a man is that not also sexual assault? Men are visually stimulated and unwanted stimulation should meet the basic definition of assault. I am not condoning bad behavior by men but women need to understand that by walking around in their little sister’s skirt they are guilty of indecent visual assault on a man’s imagination which does cause mental anguish and torment especially on men who really are trying to live in harmony and respect toward women; something made more difficult when every ripple and curve are exposed to the men around you. Something to think about."
“We are just discussing what should be obvious,” Gallups said. “The science supports us in it.”
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
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F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 30,617
That guy is a moron. Does my mind wander if I see a beautiful woman in revealing clothing. Sure, sometimes. I'm a dog. I do not whistle. I do not rub my 'leg.' I do not have sex with a plant....and I do not say something to her. (You can't really even say 'You Look Nice' although I think that is taking it too far...but it is the reality.) I do not do anything. Sure as hell don't feel like this is an assault on me because I am a man. I think it is a celebration of human (female) beauty and am happy for it.
If you see this and you feel compelled to in some way violate her rights then you lack basic human control. I joked that I am a dog...but perhaps the pastor here really is an animal without basic human control.
Man, even the first Bush is a pervo groping senior citizen. How embarrassing.
“At age 93, President Bush has been confined to a wheelchair for roughly five years, so his arm falls on the lower waist of people with whom he takes pictures. To try to put people at ease, the president routinely tells the same joke — and on occasion, he has patted women’s rears in what he intended to be a good-natured manner. Some have seen it as innocent; others clearly view it as inappropriate. To anyone he has offended, President Bush apologizes most sincerely.”
Man, even the first Bush is a pervo groping senior citizen. How embarrassing.
“At age 93, President Bush has been confined to a wheelchair for roughly five years, so his arm falls on the lower waist of people with whom he takes pictures. To try to put people at ease, the president routinely tells the same joke — and on occasion, he has patted women’s rears in what he intended to be a good-natured manner. Some have seen it as innocent; others clearly view it as inappropriate. To anyone he has offended, President Bush apologizes most sincerely.”
I can't wait until baseball players have their #metoo moment.
"I was so proud of myself for hitting that home run, but when I got to the dugout, many of my teammates slapped me on the butt. And everyone just acted as though this sort of disgusting behavior was completely normal. It marred the whole experience."
I can't wait until baseball players have their #metoo moment.
"I was so proud of myself for hitting that home run, but when I got to the dugout, many of my teammates slapped me on the butt. And everyone just acted as though this sort of disgusting behavior was completely normal. It marred the whole experience."
I can't wait until baseball players have their #metoo moment.
"I was so proud of myself for hitting that home run, but when I got to the dugout, many of my teammates slapped me on the butt. And everyone just acted as though this sort of disgusting behavior was completely normal. It marred the whole experience."
lol
Oh, since this is AMT and y’all explicate everything to its most illogical and anhedonic extreme, I feel like a disclaimer is necessary: Please note that I am not making light of anyone who has suffered actual sexual abuse of any kind or the #metoo movement. I would never do such a thing. You are, of course, free to believe whatever you want about me, but if it’s anything like the above, you’ve never been more wrong.
I can't wait until baseball players have their #metoo moment.
"I was so proud of myself for hitting that home run, but when I got to the dugout, many of my teammates slapped me on the butt. And everyone just acted as though this sort of disgusting behavior was completely normal. It marred the whole experience."
lol
Oh, since this is AMT and y’all explicate everything to its most illogical and anhedonic extreme, I feel like a disclaimer is necessary: Please note that I am not making light of anyone who has suffered actual sexual abuse of any kind or the #metoo movement. I would never do such a thing. You are, of course, free to believe whatever you want about me, but if it’s anything like the above, you’ve never been more wrong.
No disclaimer necessary for me. A little humour helps these days.
I can't wait until baseball players have their #metoo moment.
"I was so proud of myself for hitting that home run, but when I got to the dugout, many of my teammates slapped me on the butt. And everyone just acted as though this sort of disgusting behavior was completely normal. It marred the whole experience."
lol
Oh, since this is AMT and y’all explicate everything to its most illogical and anhedonic extreme, I feel like a disclaimer is necessary: Please note that I am not making light of anyone who has suffered actual sexual abuse of any kind or the #metoo movement. I would never do such a thing. You are, of course, free to believe whatever you want about me, but if it’s anything like the above, you’ve never been more wrong.
full disclosure: when I first read your post, that's what first came to mind. then I got my head out the "automatic liberal outrage" mode and realized it wasn't meant with any malice.
Darwinspeed, all.
Cheers,
HFD
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F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 30,617
"If a woman wears sexually suggestive clothing around a man is that not also sexual assault? Men are visually stimulated and unwanted stimulation should meet the basic definition of assault. I am not condoning bad behavior by men but women need to understand that by walking around in their little sister’s skirt they are guilty of indecent visual assault on a man’s imagination which does cause mental anguish and torment especially on men who really are trying to live in harmony and respect toward women; something made more difficult when every ripple and curve are exposed to the men around you. Something to think about."
“We are just discussing what should be obvious,” Gallups said. “The science supports us in it.”
"If a woman wears sexually suggestive clothing around a man is that not also sexual assault? Men are visually stimulated and unwanted stimulation should meet the basic definition of assault. I am not condoning bad behavior by men but women need to understand that by walking around in their little sister’s skirt they are guilty of indecent visual assault on a man’s imagination which does cause mental anguish and torment especially on men who really are trying to live in harmony and respect toward women; something made more difficult when every ripple and curve are exposed to the men around you. Something to think about."
“We are just discussing what should be obvious,” Gallups said. “The science supports us in it.”
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
Comments
Did you report each and every time it happened? If not, why not? Because you didn't want the grilling and questions about your reputation and what you were doing/ wearing? The questions that maybe you had invited it? Maybe you were leading him on? Did you keep quiet because you were afraid of repercussions at work or school? Because you thought you were not the perfect victim? Or because you know the dismal statistics on how many of these cases actually lead to a conviction? Then it absolutely was about power.
Did you successfully fight off and disable your attacker when you were assaulted? If not then it absolutely was about power.
Sexual assault is not about fucking or fuckability. It is about power -- one person's ability to overpower another person, to take something they want without permission/ consent. If we say that it is not about power, that allows the the same damn argument that Agent Orange used last year to dispute allegations against him to creep back in: "Sexual assault?!? Really? I mean, did you look at her? I don't think so, folks!" That's a big reason why I never reported it; I figured nobody would believe I was attractive enough that anyone would force themselves on me. It's past time for that myth to die.
Sexual harassment also is about power, one party having the power to behave hurtfully toward another with impunity. The harasser might be older, a teacher, employer, mentor, family member -- or maybe they're just physically stronger. Maybe they operate in an environment where "boys will be boys!" is the prevailing attitude, and anyone who speaks out is told to loosen up, toughen up, smile more, learn to be more of a team player. That's still power -- social power.
Do you think twice about going out alone at night? Do you park near the door/ under a light/ away from vans? Have you internalized the message that you must stride confidently to your car, keys at the ready (in defensive position), on alert for any sign of trouble? Are you afraid to go for a run alone? Do the men you know behave the same way? Do they make their decisions from a position of defensiveness? This also is about power -- physical power, and societal messaging that tells us 1) be afraid; 2) be prepared; 3) if something happens, it's actually your fault, maybe you should have thought before going to the store for milk/ running outdoors instead of sticking to an elliptical/ working the night shift. Those messages, implicitly or explicitly, seek to place limits on women's behavior and movements. That's power at work.
Serial predators -- O'Reilly, Weinstein, Cosby, Sandusky (Penn State), Toback, and the many others who are well-known but not yet publicly accused -- wield a lot of power and influence and are responsible for generating a LOT of revenue, and many people prioritize protecting their cash cows over protecting the victims. But there are many smaller sharks out there who are happy to leverage their insignificant but relative power.
And sorry, I thought it was clear that I wasn't talking about "power" as in sexual abuse being a power issue rather than a sex issue. I do know that very well, but that isn't at all what I meant, and I don't think that is what was meant in the post I was replying to either. I was talking about money and power in the context that I thought it was clearly being discussed in, i.e. MONEY and POWER in the sense that the person literally has power over you outside of the sexual harassment. I meant that the people weren't my bosses and weren't in positions of power over me. I feel like you kind of took my post out of context.
And sorry, I don't understand your second paragraph. Are you saying that if someone does fight off and disable their attacker it isn't about power?
As for the rest.... FWIW, not one single person has ever "gotten away" with treating me that way without some kind of consequence, though I have never contacted police, for various reasons, and none of those reasons were about my own feelings and emotions. They were all logistical reasons, i.e. I didn't think there was any point at the time because I didn't believe there was any way to find the people or prove anything. I feel fine about every decision I've ever made as far as that goes, except for a couple cases where, in current times, calling the police would be appropriate. But when it happened, it wouldn't have been. Times have changed (for the better for once). Also, not a single one of those people were in any actual position of power over me. Some of them were complete strangers. Some of them were peers and/or equal co-workers.
Finally, FWIW, I have never in my life felt like a victim. No, I do not think twice about going out at night alone, but I do always carry a discreet weapon in my hand when I do (it is always in my purse), not because I feel scared, but because I am simply not the type to think "it won't happen to me" (since it has!). Better safe than sorry, no matter how safe I feel. I think it's just stupid for a woman to walk around alone at night without a single means of defense, no matter how safe and secure she feels. I live car free, so being out at night alone is a very normal thing for me and I am not scared or nervous unless I have a specific reason to be (and yes, I have been attacked while out at night alone ... I got the guy who grabbed me with my weapon and they took off. They had been trying to kidnap me and presumably gang rape me - I was about 23 years old). I have always stood up for myself, and, whenever possible, I have outed the fucker who was screwing with me. I have had people fired for sexually harassing me a couple of times, back when I worked in the hospitality industry.
I think a lot of people assume any woman who has had such things happen to them must have had a hard time dealing with it (kind of like a lot of people assume that any woman who has had an abortion must be emotionally impacted). I am actually not emotionally disturbed by any of these incidents at all. I have always walked away feeling stronger than I probably did before it happened (I should note that I am somewhat physically powerful and intimidating in female terms. I think things must be harder for smaller women or women who have a more... ?gentle? persona, and I think also men target them more often and persist longer in a fight because they think they have a better chance with them). However, I can see how it would be very disturbing if someone in a position of power had done it to me.... I know for a fact that I wouldn't find it difficult at all to go after anyone in that position who did that to me. I would actually find it extremely satisfying. I am not, though, in a make it or break it profession. Perhaps I would feel differently if I were put in that particular position.
I have a question about the NDA's that are now being broken.
(and yet AGAIN it fucking sucks to have to put a disclaimer on this that I think Weinstein and those who have acted / still behave as he has are beyond pieces of utterly stinky shit)
Is something - not even necessarily money but I assume so - given in exchange for signatures on those docs?
This whole thing has opened the door on questions for me.
As to being sexually harrassed, assaulted, the whole motherfucking gamut, been through it myself. And I know, appreciate, many (so many!) men who would never tolerate this. Who have taught or are teaching their children, no matter son nor daughter, this shit is unacceptable.
And....as to power. It is, to me, what it is. Money, control, ego = how people shit on others. The venue in which it occurs means nothing. It's about character.
Decency.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/and-what-should-i-have-do_b_6318236.html
A friend wrote this piece and she's now ready to name her abuser. (She wrote the piece under a pseudonym.) (Both of us work in Hollywod, btw, but have never had any contact with Harvey Weinstein although we both heard he was a real asshole - neither of us heard about the sexual abuse though.)
http://www.purpleclover.com/relationships/4536-man-who-molested-me-when-i-was-10/
It's interesting to see the past catch up with powerful people. Social media is exposing what has been covered up from the beginning of time. Women are finally coming out and making public accusations. I'm thinking there are a lot of famous men out there that are thinking "oh, shit" and looking over their shoulders.
Cheers,
HFD
Christian pastor: Women who dress provocatively are committing sexual assault on men
"If a woman wears sexually suggestive clothing around a man is that not also sexual assault? Men are visually stimulated and unwanted stimulation should meet the basic definition of assault. I am not condoning bad behavior by men but women need to understand that by walking around in their little sister’s skirt they are guilty of indecent visual assault on a man’s imagination which does cause mental anguish and torment especially on men who really are trying to live in harmony and respect toward women; something made more difficult when every ripple and curve are exposed to the men around you. Something to think about."“We are just discussing what should be obvious,” Gallups said. “The science supports us in it.”
I'm a dog.
I do not whistle. I do not rub my 'leg.' I do not have sex with a plant....and I do not say something to her. (You can't really even say 'You Look Nice' although I think that is taking it too far...but it is the reality.)
I do not do anything.
Sure as hell don't feel like this is an assault on me because I am a man. I think it is a celebration of human (female) beauty and am happy for it.
If you see this and you feel compelled to in some way violate her rights then you lack basic human control. I joked that I am a dog...but perhaps the pastor here really is an animal without basic human control.
Cheers,
HFD
Also, those orange hands make me think Trump is under one of those.
“At age 93, President Bush has been confined to a wheelchair for roughly five years, so his arm falls on the lower waist of people with whom he takes pictures. To try to put people at ease, the president routinely tells the same joke — and on occasion, he has patted women’s rears in what he intended to be a good-natured manner. Some have seen it as innocent; others clearly view it as inappropriate. To anyone he has offended, President Bush apologizes most sincerely.”
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/10/25/two_women_say_former_president_george_h_w_bush_groped_them.html
Cheers,
HFD
"I was so proud of myself for hitting that home run, but when I got to the dugout, many of my teammates slapped me on the butt. And everyone just acted as though this sort of disgusting behavior was completely normal. It marred the whole experience."
lol
No disclaimer necessary for me. A little humour helps these days.
Cheers,
HFD
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
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