"why are there so many mass shootings today?"

ajedigecko

...a good article to read.
...addresses the root systemic problem.

http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/why-are-there-so-many-mass-shootings-today

josevolution

It could have something to do with the 200 plus million guns we have in the country just a thought ...

tempo_n_groove

“The greater the bureaucratization of public life, the greater will be the attraction of violence. In a fully developed bureaucracy there is nobody left with whom one could argue, to whom one could present grievances, on whom the pressures of power could be exerted. Bureaucracy is the form of government in which everybody is deprived of political freedom, of the power to act; for the rule by Nobody is not no-rule, and where all are equally powerless we have a tyranny without a tyrant.”

We discussed something along these lines.  Where do people have an outlet now?  Fighting is frowned upon.  You can't fight in school anymore because you'll get expelled.
You can't fight in public anymore, you'll get sued.
Everything seems to be "extreme" now.  Hell, even Bear in the Brown family wants to do EVERYTHING extreme and he doesn't even have a TV!

PJ_Soul

^^^ So the problem is that people are violent dicks and aren't allowed to "express" that anymore, so turn to mass murder? Jesus, that does not reflect well on people (of the male variety, namely). I think the solution, in that case, will be found in how America is raising/socializing children, especially boys. Because a well-adjusted person really shouldn't have this overwhelming urge to physically fight. That there is a premise that they need an outlet for their physical rage even exists defines the problem. Human beings are more than capable of dealing with their emotions in a different and more constructive way than that. It's just that some societies don't bother teaching them how.

Go Beavers

Sounds like a half baked, misguided theory rooted in victim mentality. 

PJ_Soul

Go Beavers said:

Sounds like a half baked, misguided theory rooted in victim mentality. 

I agree. I mean, we' humans, not gorillas. I'm pretty sure everyone should be expected to manage their emotions without having to punch someone, or, if they can't do that, shoot people. I mean come on. If our expectations are that low, no wonder there's a problem. Although, I think there is still something behind the idea of kids being raised to be maladjusted in many ways. I don't think that removes responsibility from any adults though. Everyone is responsible for their own actions once they're young adults, assuming they aren't too mentally ill to be capable of it.

rgambs

PJ_Soul said:

^^^ So the problem is that people are violent dicks and aren't allowed to "express" that anymore, so turn to mass murder? Jesus, that does not reflect well on people (of the male variety, namely). I think the solution, in that case, will be found in how America is raising/socializing children, especially boys. Because a well-adjusted person really shouldn't have this overwhelming urge to physically fight. That there is a premise that they need an outlet for their physical rage even exists defines the problem. Human beings are more than capable of dealing with their emotions in a different and more constructive way than that. It's just that some societies don't bother teaching them how.

Dealing with undesirable urges and eliminating them are two very different things.
A high testosterone human male is pretty likely to encounter that urge now and again, and aside from a lifetime of meditation on the subject, that isn't going to change.
Our biology is still very much in play, a civilized man rejects and suppresses the urge to violence and sex, but our brain chemistry still produces those urges regularly.

That being said, this theory is dumb lol

PJ_Soul

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

^^^ So the problem is that people are violent dicks and aren't allowed to "express" that anymore, so turn to mass murder? Jesus, that does not reflect well on people (of the male variety, namely). I think the solution, in that case, will be found in how America is raising/socializing children, especially boys. Because a well-adjusted person really shouldn't have this overwhelming urge to physically fight. That there is a premise that they need an outlet for their physical rage even exists defines the problem. Human beings are more than capable of dealing with their emotions in a different and more constructive way than that. It's just that some societies don't bother teaching them how.

Dealing with undesirable urges and eliminating them are two very different things.
A high testosterone human male is pretty likely to encounter that urge now and again, and aside from a lifetime of meditation on the subject, that isn't going to change.
Our biology is still very much in play, a civilized man rejects and suppresses the urge to violence and sex, but our brain chemistry still produces those urges regularly.

That being said, this theory is dumb lol

Well that's what I'm saying. People are capable of dealing with their emotions, and should always be expected to (outside of certain mental illnesses). That doesn't mean they don't have the emotions, but they should always be expected to be able to control the violent expression of them. That said, I do still think that if a "civilized man" is regularly being overcome by violent and sexual urges to the point that they need to consciously be suppressed in order not to lash out and go around hitting and raping, there is something seriously wrong with that person. I mean, I hope you're not suggesting that it's normal for a guy to have violent and hard-to-control sexual urges. If you are.... well, I would see that as pretty fucked up. I know a whole lot of men, and none of them are needing to actively "suppress" those two feelings to avoid acting out of line. If someone's brain chemistry is doing that to them, then they should be seeing a psychiatrist.

tempo_n_groove

PJ_Soul said:

^^^ So the problem is that people are violent dicks and aren't allowed to "express" that anymore, so turn to mass murder? Jesus, that does not reflect well on people (of the male variety, namely). I think the solution, in that case, will be found in how America is raising/socializing children, especially boys. Because a well-adjusted person really shouldn't have this overwhelming urge to physically fight. That there is a premise that they need an outlet for their physical rage even exists defines the problem. Human beings are more than capable of dealing with their emotions in a different and more constructive way than that. It's just that some societies don't bother teaching them how.

EXACTLY!

The people doing the mass shootings have something very wrong with them.

What makes them snap?!?

tempo_n_groove

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

^^^ So the problem is that people are violent dicks and aren't allowed to "express" that anymore, so turn to mass murder? Jesus, that does not reflect well on people (of the male variety, namely). I think the solution, in that case, will be found in how America is raising/socializing children, especially boys. Because a well-adjusted person really shouldn't have this overwhelming urge to physically fight. That there is a premise that they need an outlet for their physical rage even exists defines the problem. Human beings are more than capable of dealing with their emotions in a different and more constructive way than that. It's just that some societies don't bother teaching them how.

Dealing with undesirable urges and eliminating them are two very different things.
A high testosterone human male is pretty likely to encounter that urge now and again, and aside from a lifetime of meditation on the subject, that isn't going to change.
Our biology is still very much in play, a civilized man rejects and suppresses the urge to violence and sex, but our brain chemistry still produces those urges regularly.

That being said, this theory is dumb lol

The theory was written in 1975 i think?

HughFreakingDillon

I read it as someone who is trying to blame big government, AKA, Democrats, for this problem. 

oftenreading

tempo_n_groove said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

^^^ So the problem is that people are violent dicks and aren't allowed to "express" that anymore, so turn to mass murder? Jesus, that does not reflect well on people (of the male variety, namely). I think the solution, in that case, will be found in how America is raising/socializing children, especially boys. Because a well-adjusted person really shouldn't have this overwhelming urge to physically fight. That there is a premise that they need an outlet for their physical rage even exists defines the problem. Human beings are more than capable of dealing with their emotions in a different and more constructive way than that. It's just that some societies don't bother teaching them how.

Dealing with undesirable urges and eliminating them are two very different things.
A high testosterone human male is pretty likely to encounter that urge now and again, and aside from a lifetime of meditation on the subject, that isn't going to change.
Our biology is still very much in play, a civilized man rejects and suppresses the urge to violence and sex, but our brain chemistry still produces those urges regularly.

That being said, this theory is dumb lol

The theory was written in 1975 i think?

She dies in 1975. The theory was published in 1969. I think we can safely say that there have been many changes in society since then that Ms. Arendht didn't predict. I do, however, agree that many (though by no means all, or even the majority) acts of violence come out of a feeling of powerlessness to effect change in other ways.

oftenreading

tempo_n_groove said:

PJ_Soul said:

^^^ So the problem is that people are violent dicks and aren't allowed to "express" that anymore, so turn to mass murder? Jesus, that does not reflect well on people (of the male variety, namely). I think the solution, in that case, will be found in how America is raising/socializing children, especially boys. Because a well-adjusted person really shouldn't have this overwhelming urge to physically fight. That there is a premise that they need an outlet for their physical rage even exists defines the problem. Human beings are more than capable of dealing with their emotions in a different and more constructive way than that. It's just that some societies don't bother teaching them how.

EXACTLY!

The people doing the mass shootings have something very wrong with them.

What makes them snap?!?

The Vegas shooter planned this for years. No evidence to suggest that he "snapped".

PJ_Soul

Okay, though in this context, you could say that "a feeling of powerlessness to effect change in other ways" is the same as "being unwilling to find another way to effect change or have a say". At least in most cases.

oftenreading

PJ_Soul said:

Okay, though in this context, you could say that "a feeling of powerlessness to effect change in other ways" is the same as "being unwilling to find another way to effect change or have a say". At least in most cases.

Oh, sure. I'm not justifying it at all. Some people are pretty cognitively limited and have limited skills to resolve issues in other ways, or to accept that they may have lost something (such as a relationship).

tbergs

oftenreading said:

tempo_n_groove said:

PJ_Soul said:

^^^ So the problem is that people are violent dicks and aren't allowed to "express" that anymore, so turn to mass murder? Jesus, that does not reflect well on people (of the male variety, namely). I think the solution, in that case, will be found in how America is raising/socializing children, especially boys. Because a well-adjusted person really shouldn't have this overwhelming urge to physically fight. That there is a premise that they need an outlet for their physical rage even exists defines the problem. Human beings are more than capable of dealing with their emotions in a different and more constructive way than that. It's just that some societies don't bother teaching them how.

EXACTLY!

The people doing the mass shootings have something very wrong with them.

What makes them snap?!?

The Vegas shooter planned this for years. No evidence to suggest that he "snapped".

I think the term "snapped" is often times over used or misused. In most cases this isn't a sudden single action, it is the final action in a series of events rooted in a way of thinking that could date back 10 - 20 years or even a whole lifetime. I agree with what RG stated about for the most part, we are able to suppress or control these courses of action or thought, but there are people who can't and have now found a release or form of justice in their mind.. 

oftenreading

tbergs said:

oftenreading said:

tempo_n_groove said:

PJ_Soul said:

^^^ So the problem is that people are violent dicks and aren't allowed to "express" that anymore, so turn to mass murder? Jesus, that does not reflect well on people (of the male variety, namely). I think the solution, in that case, will be found in how America is raising/socializing children, especially boys. Because a well-adjusted person really shouldn't have this overwhelming urge to physically fight. That there is a premise that they need an outlet for their physical rage even exists defines the problem. Human beings are more than capable of dealing with their emotions in a different and more constructive way than that. It's just that some societies don't bother teaching them how.

EXACTLY!

The people doing the mass shootings have something very wrong with them.

What makes them snap?!?

The Vegas shooter planned this for years. No evidence to suggest that he "snapped".

I think the term "snapped" is often times over used or misused. In most cases this isn't a sudden single action, it is the final action in a series of events rooted in a way of thinking that could date back 10 - 20 years or even a whole lifetime. I agree with what RG stated about for the most part, we are able to suppress or control these courses of action or thought, but there are people who can't and have now found a release or form of justice in their mind.. 

"Can't" or "won't".

PJ_Soul

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

Okay, though in this context, you could say that "a feeling of powerlessness to effect change in other ways" is the same as "being unwilling to find another way to effect change or have a say". At least in most cases.

Oh, sure. I'm not justifying it at all. Some people are pretty cognitively limited and have limited skills to resolve issues in other ways, or to accept that they may have lost something (such as a relationship).

True... I wonder what the best ways to teach even those people that violence isn't a viable option? I would assume it needs to start in childhood.

tbergs

oftenreading said:

tbergs said:

oftenreading said:

tempo_n_groove said:

PJ_Soul said:

^^^ So the problem is that people are violent dicks and aren't allowed to "express" that anymore, so turn to mass murder? Jesus, that does not reflect well on people (of the male variety, namely). I think the solution, in that case, will be found in how America is raising/socializing children, especially boys. Because a well-adjusted person really shouldn't have this overwhelming urge to physically fight. That there is a premise that they need an outlet for their physical rage even exists defines the problem. Human beings are more than capable of dealing with their emotions in a different and more constructive way than that. It's just that some societies don't bother teaching them how.

EXACTLY!

The people doing the mass shootings have something very wrong with them.

What makes them snap?!?

The Vegas shooter planned this for years. No evidence to suggest that he "snapped".

I think the term "snapped" is often times over used or misused. In most cases this isn't a sudden single action, it is the final action in a series of events rooted in a way of thinking that could date back 10 - 20 years or even a whole lifetime. I agree with what RG stated about for the most part, we are able to suppress or control these courses of action or thought, but there are people who can't and have now found a release or form of justice in their mind.. 

"Can't" or "won't".

Honestly, I think it is can't. If you were to get inside their mind, there would be no other option. 

PJ_Soul

Well, maybe the guy is just an evil guy with really macabre desires. Maybe he just got off on the idea of shooting people like fish in a barrel, and had a hard on for spy-guying it up. Maybe this was all pure fun for him because he's got no empathy and a boner for guns and mass shootings. A lot of people are fascinated with the subject - maybe he just took it to the next level because, why the fuck not? Sounds like he was an anti-social guy anyhow, so why not go out in this crazy and what he may have thought of as awesome way, while he's still young enough to have the energy to do it and the will to make such a big deal of it for himself? It's possible all this planning and preparing and scouting was entertainment for him. Unfortunately, It doesn't seem to me like we'll ever know.

mace1229

I've honestly thought for a long time this was going to happen. Mass shootings have been around for a long time, these weapons have been around a long time. They just get more attention now. Partially with the 24/7 news, social media and other technology helps to keep the event alive and everyone keeps talking about it. Not that we shouldn't talk about it.  And each time it seems like they try to one-up the last one. Going from a theater, to a elementary school, then a night club. 
Have I been the only one standing in a giant crowd, or seen a giant crowd and though "It only takes 1 guy with the right gun(s) to kill hundreds right now?" Instead of 1 guy going into a McDonalds and shooting 3 people, its going to a more crowded place and killing more. The way this has progressed I'm surprised anyone is shocked by this. I'm terribly saddened, of course, but not shocked. 

brianlux

It's in our history.  I just watched (finally) Scorsese's film "Gangs of New York".  Obviously dramatized but based on events that illustrated how ultra violent America was then, was when we were founded, is now.   America thrives on violence.  We tried to turn that around in the groovy sixties and now even a lot of ex-hippy boomers are into just.  Disgusting.

Smellyman

ajedigecko said:

...a good article to read.
...addresses the root systemic problem.

http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/why-are-there-so-many-mass-shootings-today

Great, a conservative 'think tank' article...no thanks

mcgruff10

I've read in a couple articles that the majority of mass shooters/killers are on similar prescription drugs.  Any truth to this?

oftenreading

mcgruff10 said:

I've read in a couple articles that the majority of mass shooters/killers are on similar prescription drugs.  Any truth to this?

Any credible links to this?

oftenreading

Also, bear in mind that some of the sources perpetuating this myth are Scientology- linked, either openly or more covertly. 

rgambs

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

^^^ So the problem is that people are violent dicks and aren't allowed to "express" that anymore, so turn to mass murder? Jesus, that does not reflect well on people (of the male variety, namely). I think the solution, in that case, will be found in how America is raising/socializing children, especially boys. Because a well-adjusted person really shouldn't have this overwhelming urge to physically fight. That there is a premise that they need an outlet for their physical rage even exists defines the problem. Human beings are more than capable of dealing with their emotions in a different and more constructive way than that. It's just that some societies don't bother teaching them how.

Dealing with undesirable urges and eliminating them are two very different things.
A high testosterone human male is pretty likely to encounter that urge now and again, and aside from a lifetime of meditation on the subject, that isn't going to change.
Our biology is still very much in play, a civilized man rejects and suppresses the urge to violence and sex, but our brain chemistry still produces those urges regularly.

That being said, this theory is dumb lol

Well that's what I'm saying. People are capable of dealing with their emotions, and should always be expected to (outside of certain mental illnesses). That doesn't mean they don't have the emotions, but they should always be expected to be able to control the violent expression of them. That said, I do still think that if a "civilized man" is regularly being overcome by violent and sexual urges to the point that they need to consciously be suppressed in order not to lash out and go around hitting and raping, there is something seriously wrong with that person. I mean, I hope you're not suggesting that it's normal for a guy to have violent and hard-to-control sexual urges. If you are.... well, I would see that as pretty fucked up. I know a whole lot of men, and none of them are needing to actively "suppress" those two feelings to avoid acting out of line. If someone's brain chemistry is doing that to them, then they should be seeing a psychiatrist.

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

^^^ So the problem is that people are violent dicks and aren't allowed to "express" that anymore, so turn to mass murder? Jesus, that does not reflect well on people (of the male variety, namely). I think the solution, in that case, will be found in how America is raising/socializing children, especially boys. Because a well-adjusted person really shouldn't have this overwhelming urge to physically fight. That there is a premise that they need an outlet for their physical rage even exists defines the problem. Human beings are more than capable of dealing with their emotions in a different and more constructive way than that. It's just that some societies don't bother teaching them how.

Dealing with undesirable urges and eliminating them are two very different things.
A high testosterone human male is pretty likely to encounter that urge now and again, and aside from a lifetime of meditation on the subject, that isn't going to change.
Our biology is still very much in play, a civilized man rejects and suppresses the urge to violence and sex, but our brain chemistry still produces those urges regularly.

That being said, this theory is dumb lol

Well that's what I'm saying. People are capable of dealing with their emotions, and should always be expected to (outside of certain mental illnesses). That doesn't mean they don't have the emotions, but they should always be expected to be able to control the violent expression of them. That said, I do still think that if a "civilized man" is regularly being overcome by violent and sexual urges to the point that they need to consciously be suppressed in order not to lash out and go around hitting and raping, there is something seriously wrong with that person. I mean, I hope you're not suggesting that it's normal for a guy to have violent and hard-to-control sexual urges. If you are.... well, I would see that as pretty fucked up. I know a whole lot of men, and none of them are needing to actively "suppress" those two feelings to avoid acting out of line. If someone's brain chemistry is doing that to them, then they should be seeing a psychiatrist.

I wasn't talking about an urge to rape, just the urge to slap/punch assholes and the urge to copulate with attractive females.
Most males experience those urges pretty regularly, though some guys aren't as slappy as others.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

We have tried to explain evil behaviour for our entire existence. I am not sure we are capable of doing that.

Why did the serial murderer do what they did? What made the mass murderer 'snap'? How can we prevent these things from happening? We note commonalities among these types and we trace their roots to try and understand what made these people do what they did... but I don't think we are capable of truly understanding or, for that matter, accepting what we seek.

Apes such as chimpanzees and baboons demonstrate cruelty in various manners. Unfortunately, straight across the board, we're not too far removed from them in this particular facet of life. As much as we have developed intellectually and socially... we still harbour inherent levels of evil. The perfect storm of nature and nurture periodically creates a disaster of a human being that displays exceptional levels of evil.  

tbergs

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

We have tried to explain evil behaviour for our entire existence. I am not sure we are capable of doing that.

Why did the serial murderer do what they did? What made the mass murderer 'snap'? How can we prevent these things from happening? We note commonalities among these types and we trace their roots to try and understand what made these people do what they did... but I don't think we are capable of truly understanding or, for that matter, accepting what we seek.

Apes such as chimpanzees and baboons demonstrate cruelty in various manners. Unfortunately, straight across the board, we're not too far removed from them in this particular facet of life. As much as we have developed intellectually and socially... we still harbour inherent levels of evil. The perfect storm of nature and nurture periodically creates a disaster of a human being that displays exceptional levels of evil.  

And sometimes we even elect them to the office of President.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

^^^ So the problem is that people are violent dicks and aren't allowed to "express" that anymore, so turn to mass murder? Jesus, that does not reflect well on people (of the male variety, namely). I think the solution, in that case, will be found in how America is raising/socializing children, especially boys. Because a well-adjusted person really shouldn't have this overwhelming urge to physically fight. That there is a premise that they need an outlet for their physical rage even exists defines the problem. Human beings are more than capable of dealing with their emotions in a different and more constructive way than that. It's just that some societies don't bother teaching them how.

Dealing with undesirable urges and eliminating them are two very different things.
A high testosterone human male is pretty likely to encounter that urge now and again, and aside from a lifetime of meditation on the subject, that isn't going to change.
Our biology is still very much in play, a civilized man rejects and suppresses the urge to violence and sex, but our brain chemistry still produces those urges regularly.

That being said, this theory is dumb lol

Well that's what I'm saying. People are capable of dealing with their emotions, and should always be expected to (outside of certain mental illnesses). That doesn't mean they don't have the emotions, but they should always be expected to be able to control the violent expression of them. That said, I do still think that if a "civilized man" is regularly being overcome by violent and sexual urges to the point that they need to consciously be suppressed in order not to lash out and go around hitting and raping, there is something seriously wrong with that person. I mean, I hope you're not suggesting that it's normal for a guy to have violent and hard-to-control sexual urges. If you are.... well, I would see that as pretty fucked up. I know a whole lot of men, and none of them are needing to actively "suppress" those two feelings to avoid acting out of line. If someone's brain chemistry is doing that to them, then they should be seeing a psychiatrist.

I am confident you are correct, however......how could you possibly know this?  you don't think that if they had these issues that they'd tell you about it, do you?

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

^^^ So the problem is that people are violent dicks and aren't allowed to "express" that anymore, so turn to mass murder? Jesus, that does not reflect well on people (of the male variety, namely). I think the solution, in that case, will be found in how America is raising/socializing children, especially boys. Because a well-adjusted person really shouldn't have this overwhelming urge to physically fight. That there is a premise that they need an outlet for their physical rage even exists defines the problem. Human beings are more than capable of dealing with their emotions in a different and more constructive way than that. It's just that some societies don't bother teaching them how.

Dealing with undesirable urges and eliminating them are two very different things.
A high testosterone human male is pretty likely to encounter that urge now and again, and aside from a lifetime of meditation on the subject, that isn't going to change.
Our biology is still very much in play, a civilized man rejects and suppresses the urge to violence and sex, but our brain chemistry still produces those urges regularly.

That being said, this theory is dumb lol

Well that's what I'm saying. People are capable of dealing with their emotions, and should always be expected to (outside of certain mental illnesses). That doesn't mean they don't have the emotions, but they should always be expected to be able to control the violent expression of them. That said, I do still think that if a "civilized man" is regularly being overcome by violent and sexual urges to the point that they need to consciously be suppressed in order not to lash out and go around hitting and raping, there is something seriously wrong with that person. I mean, I hope you're not suggesting that it's normal for a guy to have violent and hard-to-control sexual urges. If you are.... well, I would see that as pretty fucked up. I know a whole lot of men, and none of them are needing to actively "suppress" those two feelings to avoid acting out of line. If someone's brain chemistry is doing that to them, then they should be seeing a psychiatrist.

I am confident you are correct, however......how could you possibly know this?  you don't think that if they had these issues that they'd tell you about it, do you?

Well, I guess I just don't feel like people can effectively hide that kind of thing very well over time. Actively suppressing rage and overwhelming sexual urges is not something non-psychopaths are going to be able to hide consistently forever. Obviously I don't KNOW this as some kind of absolute fact - I just feel confident in my opinion about it..... sometimes we have to be able to generally trust our instincts when it comes to this kind of thing. I feel pretty safe saying that the majority of normal, well-adjusted men aren't walking around with violent rage and nearly uncontrollable sexual desire boiling just under the surface. That many men wouldn't be able to hide it that well IMO.