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The End of DACA?

tbergstbergs Posts: 9,810
in A Moving Train
I thought that this deserved more of it's own thread instead of getting buried in a thread devoted to airing grievances and making fun of the daily ignorance of our current POTUS. While it is being undone under his administration, it is really in the hands of Congress now. They have 6 months to do or not do anything. While I have not heard any argument against the moral and positive intent of DACA being enacted under Obama, there have been some back and forth arguments regarding whether there is/was legal authority to push it through as an executive order.

Instead of using it as an opportunity to complain, what do you think is going to happen with DACA and the hundreds of thousands who have been protected under it? I personally believe it would be callous at this point to deport those that were already here due to the order, but I also think moving forward there needs to be some more defined guidelines and laws in place to determine how we handle situations involving children who are being born/brought in to the country illegally with their family. It is not their fault no more than it is the fault of any child born in to a negative/difficult situation.

Obama didn't get the support of a republican congress so he did what he thought was right, laws be damned. Should we applaud his efforts because they had a moral upside for all humans or be concerned because they afforded a right and benefit to people who did not follow the legal process we have established to reside in the US? I don't have an answer to that question. It is a bigger problem and question than immigration because of how society has evolved. Hundreds of years ago, no big deal, now, we are on the perpetual verge of over population and failure to sustain an equal and fair way of life, even for those who already reside here.

Many will probably disapprove of this comparison, but I think about all of the homeless, less privileged and under served in our own country who didn't have a fair or equal opportunity even though they are here legally. What if a mayor, governor or even the president ordered that the children of these individuals would be allowed to stay, occupy or have an equal stake in your residence if the parent/family had broken in to it illegally? Call it ridiculous, but that's similar to what we have enacted as a country under DACA. This doesn't mean I don't think we need to do something or that we shouldn't help, but it's more complicated than just establishing some act and writing some eloquent words that make it seem like a simple no brainer.
It's a hopeless situation...
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Comments

  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 40,355
    Can you imagine the US actually deporting 800,000 people?


  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,028
    edited September 2017
    " What if a mayor, governor or even the president ordered that the children of these individuals would be allowed to stay, occupy or have an equal stake in your residence if the parent/family had broken in to it illegally?"

    This is almost, to the letter, what my wife said to me yesterday.  And I'm talking about a woman who in past years has taken homeless  children who needed a home into her own home and cared for them as if they were her own and who also has helped at least one woman gain legal US citizenship.  Years ago, before my wife and I got together I took two boys into my home part time. 

    My thinking on this is that this is another one of those polarized "all or nothing" issues where some people say "Don't let any of those bastards in!" or "Let everyone in with open arms."  I think we need to make some rational decisions about immigration.  No, not a cruel rejection of children already here but also not to just say, "Let's just let everyone in."   I've heard the later from people who have never actually taken anyone into there home and very likely never would.  That's super hypocritical.  
    Post edited by brianlux on
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  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,085
    I don't think the 'in your home' analogy applies. Our country is shared space, we don't see our homes the same way. This is an immigrant issue, which our country relies on, combined with valuing basic humanity. It's punishing children for a parent's action, which is something our justice system doesn't engage in and goes against our cultural values. 
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,028
    Go Beavers said:
    I don't think the 'in your home' analogy applies. Our country is shared space, we don't see our homes the same way. This is an immigrant issue, which our country relies on, combined with valuing basic humanity. It's punishing children for a parent's action, which is something our justice system doesn't engage in and goes against our cultural values. 
    Where shall these children live?  How many in your home?
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,085
    brianlux said:
    Go Beavers said:
    I don't think the 'in your home' analogy applies. Our country is shared space, we don't see our homes the same way. This is an immigrant issue, which our country relies on, combined with valuing basic humanity. It's punishing children for a parent's action, which is something our justice system doesn't engage in and goes against our cultural values. 
    Where shall these children live?  How many in your home?
    I'm guessing nearly all of them have a place to live since a large majority are working. 
  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 15,942
    edited September 2017
    This is what happens when laws are disregarded and congress fails to change laws that aren't popular.    It is very simple.  Doing right things the wrong way can lead to a lot of problems down the road and we are down the road.
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 9,810
    Go Beavers said:
    I don't think the 'in your home' analogy applies. Our country is shared space, we don't see our homes the same way. This is an immigrant issue, which our country relies on, combined with valuing basic humanity. It's punishing children for a parent's action, which is something our justice system doesn't engage in and goes against our cultural values. 
    I see it as they both illegally entered a space and took up residence. Why in either setting would it be rational to just allow the children of the adult party stay? I'm just trying to bring it down to a personal level where you actually notice the impact it has. On a daily basis right now, DACA is just something in place that I don't feel the impact of at an individual level, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who do. It's hard to comprehend when you look at it from an entire country perspective and just go what's the big deal we're a country of immigrants.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 40,355
    They are here illegally, so something should be done.  Make them join the military and serve or maybe join the army corps and build something?
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,085
    tbergs said:
    Go Beavers said:
    I don't think the 'in your home' analogy applies. Our country is shared space, we don't see our homes the same way. This is an immigrant issue, which our country relies on, combined with valuing basic humanity. It's punishing children for a parent's action, which is something our justice system doesn't engage in and goes against our cultural values. 
    I see it as they both illegally entered a space and took up residence. Why in either setting would it be rational to just allow the children of the adult party stay? I'm just trying to bring it down to a personal level where you actually notice the impact it has. On a daily basis right now, DACA is just something in place that I don't feel the impact of at an individual level, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who do. It's hard to comprehend when you look at it from an entire country perspective and just go what's the big deal we're a country of immigrants.
    It's rational because thet're contibuting to our country functioning in a positive way. I'm not sure what you're saying about it being on anoersonal level. 
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,085
    tempo_n_groove said:
    They are here illegally, so something should be done.  Make them join the military and serve or maybe join the army corps and build something?
    They are here illegally by someone else's doing. I don't understand the drive to punish people who didn't make the choice to do the illegal act. It just seems spiteful and rigid. 
  • Dirtie_FrankDirtie_Frank Posts: 1,348
    I was listening to MSNBC on my way home yesterday.  There were some Dems blaming this on Obama.  Saying that his EO was an overreach.  They applauded him for attempting but knew that it was unconstitutional.  I wish I knew their names but my memory is spaced more for PJ lyrics. :)
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  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 40,355
    Go Beavers said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    They are here illegally, so something should be done.  Make them join the military and serve or maybe join the army corps and build something?
    They are here illegally by someone else's doing. I don't understand the drive to punish people who didn't make the choice to do the illegal act. It just seems spiteful and rigid. 
    I look at it through the eyes of the law, nothing else.  Why have laws if we aren't going to enforce them?  

    Change the law/rules if they aren't being enforced.


  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 40,355
    Something that puzzles me is how do these people under DACA that have jobs pay taxes?  I have a SS# that links me to taxes and payroll.  My old company couldn't pay an out of country employee through our normal payroll and we had to pay him through his country's tax system.

    So how is everyone else paying?
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 40,355
    tempo_n_groove said:
    Something that puzzles me is how do these people under DACA that have jobs pay taxes?  I have a SS# that links me to taxes and payroll.  My old company couldn't pay an out of country employee through our normal payroll and we had to pay him through his country's tax system.

    So how is everyone else paying?
    https://unitedwedream.org/daca-tips/taxes-daca-need-know/

    I answered my own question.  I didn't know any of this was possible because it wasn't 7 years ago.
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 29,532
    http://www.newsday.com/news/region-state/new-york-attorney-general-to-file-multistate-daca-lawsuit-1.14114305
    He's back last time he stopped the Muslim ban !
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • Dirtie_FrankDirtie_Frank Posts: 1,348
    josevolution said:
    http://www.newsday.com/news/region-state/new-york-attorney-general-to-file-multistate-daca-lawsuit-1.14114305
    He's back last time he stopped the Muslim ban !
    How is it unconstitutional because it harms latinos but constitutional because it benefits them? This falls on Congress and Obama.  Congress should pass immigration reform and Obama overstepped his powers as POTUS.  
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  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    I just hate the general level of discourse on this topic.
    So, so many people in the public, media, and conservative government that are spreading lies and misinformation around, and just don't generally understand that the DACA is more specific than their general opinions about immigration.

    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,336
    Are people serious when they say "the law is the law"? 

    And it's Obama's fault? Seriously, who gives a fuck. Just do the right (and smart) thing and let these Americans stay in America.

    Where is the compassion? Some cold folks around here. 
  • CM189191CM189191 Posts: 6,927
    Dirtie_Frank said:
    josevolution said:
    http://www.newsday.com/news/region-state/new-york-attorney-general-to-file-multistate-daca-lawsuit-1.14114305
    He's back last time he stopped the Muslim ban !
    How is it unconstitutional because it harms latinos but constitutional because it benefits them? This falls on Congress and Obama.  Congress should pass immigration reform and Obama overstepped his powers as POTUS.  
    How did Obama overstep? Wasn't DACA challenged in the courts by Texas and upheld? 
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 39,020
     Because you know, in America, when a parent drives drunk with a six year old in the car, we put the six year old in jail for 90 days. Or when the 8 year old is present when dad shoots mom for over cooking the steaks, we put the 8 year old in prison for 15-20 as an accessory to 2nd degree manslaughter. Or when the 6 month old strapped in the car seat leads the police on a high speed chase, we make sure they do time and don't get their license until they're 21. You know, it's all about the rule of law. Sheriff Arpiao told me so.
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  • tbergstbergs Posts: 9,810
    Halifax2TheMax said:
     Because you know, in America, when a parent drives drunk with a six year old in the car, we put the six year old in jail for 90 days. Or when the 8 year old is present when dad shoots mom for over cooking the steaks, we put the 8 year old in prison for 15-20 as an accessory to 2nd degree manslaughter. Or when the 6 month old strapped in the car seat leads the police on a high speed chase, we make sure they do time and don't get their license until they're 21. You know, it's all about the rule of law. Sheriff Arpiao told me so.
    Those aren't even in the same ballpark. Both would be legal citizens in those instances.

    I will agree though that Arpiao is an asshat and never should have been pardoned. That fucker should be deported and his citizenship revoked. Teach him what it's like.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,028
    Hurricane Irma is now expected to hit Florida and we are quite concerned about my sister-in-law who lives there.

    Why do I post this here?  Because she is an immigrant and we supported her in coming to America and later becoming a  US citizen. We're not super close but her circumstances were such (long story) that it made sense to support her anyway.

    It's not all black and white and I am not cold and heartless.  In fact, I don't think any of us who post here are cold and heartless so I wish some of you would stop trying to push the wedge further.  Not agreeing with each other doesn't make us bad.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • tbergstbergs Posts: 9,810
    CM189191 said:
    Dirtie_Frank said:
    josevolution said:
    http://www.newsday.com/news/region-state/new-york-attorney-general-to-file-multistate-daca-lawsuit-1.14114305
    He's back last time he stopped the Muslim ban !
    How is it unconstitutional because it harms latinos but constitutional because it benefits them? This falls on Congress and Obama.  Congress should pass immigration reform and Obama overstepped his powers as POTUS.  
    How did Obama overstep? Wasn't DACA challenged in the courts by Texas and upheld? 
    It was never directly challenged.

    https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-06-23/dreamers-nightmare-deferred-by-supreme-court-immigration-split
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,336
    brianlux said:
    Hurricane Irma is now expected to hit Florida and we are quite concerned about my sister-in-law who lives there.

    Why do I post this here?  Because she is an immigrant and we supported her in coming to America and later becoming a  US citizen. We're not super close but her circumstances were such (long story) that it made sense to support her anyway.

    It's not all black and white and I am not cold and heartless.  In fact, I don't think any of us who post here are cold and heartless so I wish some of you would stop trying to push the wedge further.  Not agreeing with each other doesn't make us bad.
    If anyone thinks it's okay to throw these kids out of their home because of a bad law, then yes, I think that makes someone bad.

    No analogy can make that right or humane.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,028
    edited September 2017
    dignin said:
    brianlux said:
    Hurricane Irma is now expected to hit Florida and we are quite concerned about my sister-in-law who lives there.

    Why do I post this here?  Because she is an immigrant and we supported her in coming to America and later becoming a  US citizen. We're not super close but her circumstances were such (long story) that it made sense to support her anyway.

    It's not all black and white and I am not cold and heartless.  In fact, I don't think any of us who post here are cold and heartless so I wish some of you would stop trying to push the wedge further.  Not agreeing with each other doesn't make us bad.
    If anyone thinks it's okay to throw these kids out of their home because of a bad law, then yes, I think that makes someone bad.

    No analogy can make that right or humane.
    No one wants bad things to happen to children.  At least we agree on that.
    Post edited by brianlux on
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • tbergstbergs Posts: 9,810
    dignin said:
    brianlux said:
    Hurricane Irma is now expected to hit Florida and we are quite concerned about my sister-in-law who lives there.

    Why do I post this here?  Because she is an immigrant and we supported her in coming to America and later becoming a  US citizen. We're not super close but her circumstances were such (long story) that it made sense to support her anyway.

    It's not all black and white and I am not cold and heartless.  In fact, I don't think any of us who post here are cold and heartless so I wish some of you would stop trying to push the wedge further.  Not agreeing with each other doesn't make us bad.
    If anyone thinks it's okay to throw these kids out of their home because of a bad law, then yes, I think that makes someone bad.

    No analogy can make that right or humane.
    I don't think what has been done should be undone because it was the order in place at the time. They followed the process that was established and if it is changed they should not be affected. Put in place a way to formally grant them citizenship.

    Congress then needs to pull it together or there will be no more protections for children of illegal immigrants until the current administration and Congress majority change parties.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,336
    tbergs said:
    dignin said:
    brianlux said:
    Hurricane Irma is now expected to hit Florida and we are quite concerned about my sister-in-law who lives there.

    Why do I post this here?  Because she is an immigrant and we supported her in coming to America and later becoming a  US citizen. We're not super close but her circumstances were such (long story) that it made sense to support her anyway.

    It's not all black and white and I am not cold and heartless.  In fact, I don't think any of us who post here are cold and heartless so I wish some of you would stop trying to push the wedge further.  Not agreeing with each other doesn't make us bad.
    If anyone thinks it's okay to throw these kids out of their home because of a bad law, then yes, I think that makes someone bad.

    No analogy can make that right or humane.
    I don't think what has been done should be undone because it was the order in place at the time. They followed the process that was established and if it is changed they should not be affected. Put in place a way to formally grant them citizenship.

    Congress then needs to pull it together or there will be no more protections for children of illegal immigrants until the current administration and Congress majority change parties.
    That is fair.
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 39,020
    tbergs said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
     Because you know, in America, when a parent drives drunk with a six year old in the car, we put the six year old in jail for 90 days. Or when the 8 year old is present when dad shoots mom for over cooking the steaks, we put the 8 year old in prison for 15-20 as an accessory to 2nd degree manslaughter. Or when the 6 month old strapped in the car seat leads the police on a high speed chase, we make sure they do time and don't get their license until they're 21. You know, it's all about the rule of law. Sheriff Arpiao told me so.
    Those aren't even in the same ballpark. Both would be legal citizens in those instances.

    I will agree though that Arpiao is an asshat and never should have been pardoned. That fucker should be deported and his citizenship revoked. Teach him what it's like.
    So you still insist on punishing children for the sins of their parents? Children that are now adults? Children that are now adults who may have absolutely no connection language or culture wise with where they're supposed to be deported to? Are you the tin man?
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  • stuckinlinestuckinline Posts: 3,367
    Can someone please explain DACA? Shouldn't the focus be on the people who brought the children to the USA illegally and hold them accountable?
    Why punish the children for the sins of their parents?
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    stuckinline said:
    Can someone please explain DACA? Shouldn't the focus be on the people who brought the children to the USA illegally and hold them accountable?
    Why punish the children for the sins of their parents?
    The bigger question is why eject proven contributors to society who haven't committed crimes from a society.
    Makes no sense.
    These aren't migrant pickers, they aren't the guys on the corner looking for general labor work.
    They are proven contributors, at a much higher percentage than Trump supporters!
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