I am gonna catch crap for this.. but oh well, all sides covered right? I am a woman. I was raised in a split home, that caused major HELL in mine and my older sister's lives. BUT.. between living with my drug-addled mother and her psychotic Cuban husband, and living with my Dad and his wife, whom was ( and still is) a living definition of a Christian, I got to see both sides.. I 100% agree with the billboard. Here's why: Family is core to society.. any early childhood expert will explain that for the first 1-6 years, environment is key to development. Family is two parents, that love and care for one another and beyond. This day and edge of society is so full of crap and PC non sense that we barely love ourselves anymore... So much so, that women feel the need to fulfill men's roles in our lives. Maybe I am just too old fashioned.. or maybe I am just brain damaged from my childhood... but Gees what I wouldn't give for a society that had family in Mind and heart so deeply above self, that the core of family still existed. A mother, a father.. both in their proper places.. ( not saying that it works this way every time.. Clffy'sstory is proof of that), but that is what builds strong family. I honestly think a man should provide, and a woman should abide.. haha I just made that up.. but seriously.. anyhow.. just an Opinion from the village idiot..
Not saying that women have to live barefoot in the kitchen.. just saying that unless a woman wants to wear the pants, and the man decides he wants to be free to do the things he loves, like Cliffy's family, it should be common that there be mothers IN THE HOME; not working their butts off, leaving their child to childcare etc.. because that earlier development is what builds decent humans. Somehow, having 'everything you want', has become the core in society. I just wanted to clarify that.. lynch away..
Not saying that women have to live barefoot in the kitchen.. just saying that unless a woman wants to wear the pants, and the man decides he wants to be free to do the things he loves, like Cliffy's family, it should be common that there be mothers IN THE HOME; not working their butts off, leaving their child to childcare etc.. because that earlier development is what builds decent humans. Somehow, having 'everything you want', has become the core in society. I just wanted to clarify that.. lynch away..
Don't be so hard on yourself for this opinion! If I'm understanding right, you feel that a child's successful development is intrinsically supported by the traditional structure of the nuclear family with a man who covers financials and a woman who covers home life.
I guess my first question would be if you feel women naturally possess skills that leave them better suited to home life than men, and whether men naturally possess skills that leave them better suited to work life than women.
Next question - if that is the case, could that be because they have learnt and become adept at those skills from witnessing society do the same thing before their chance to raise a family? In other words, if people committed their energies to learning how to fulfill both roles, could they do either just as well?
Finally, with the reality moving towards dual-income parenting by necessity, do you not feel there could be strategies, tools, assistance put in place to recreate the nurturing for development that a child would have received in a traditional nuclear family?
A nuclear family may be ideal, but sometimes ideal is not tenable. Rather than looking at what was, I think you've misinterpreted society's aspirations - it's just trying to make the best of what currently is.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Not saying that women have to live barefoot in the kitchen.. just saying that unless a woman wants to wear the pants, and the man decides he wants to be free to do the things he loves, like Cliffy's family, it should be common that there be mothers IN THE HOME; not working their butts off, leaving their child to childcare etc.. because that earlier development is what builds decent humans. Somehow, having 'everything you want', has become the core in society. I just wanted to clarify that.. lynch away..
I'm kind of going to agree with you, but only to a point.
My wife and I sacrificed so that my wife stayed at home until the kids were in elementary school. We didn't want our kids in daycare and institutionalized (no judgements on anyone doing it differently).
She assumed the house duties because I had a better job than her. It wasn't gender related. And she worked just as hard as I (providing) at home. We were a team.
Once the kids started school, she got a job and has contributed financially. We're still a team.
I am gonna catch crap for this.. but oh well, all sides covered right? I am a woman. I was raised in a split home, that caused major HELL in mine and my older sister's lives. BUT.. between living with my drug-addled mother and her psychotic Cuban husband, and living with my Dad and his wife, whom was ( and still is) a living definition of a Christian, I got to see both sides.. I 100% agree with the billboard. Here's why: Family is core to society.. any early childhood expert will explain that for the first 1-6 years, environment is key to development. Family is two parents, that love and care for one another and beyond. This day and edge of society is so full of crap and PC non sense that we barely love ourselves anymore... So much so, that women feel the need to fulfill men's roles in our lives. Maybe I am just too old fashioned.. or maybe I am just brain damaged from my childhood... but Gees what I wouldn't give for a society that had family in Mind and heart so deeply above self, that the core of family still existed. A mother, a father.. both in their proper places.. ( not saying that it works this way every time.. Clffy'sstory is proof of that), but that is what builds strong family. I honestly think a man should provide, and a woman should abide.. haha I just made that up.. but seriously.. anyhow.. just an Opinion from the village idiot..
The problem is that the bolded pieces are unrelated to the rest of the post, which is unrelated to the billboard. The breaking up of families and the rise of women providing the bulk of financial support are two different issues. I agree that, ideally, a child is raised by a mother and a father, but it doesn't always work out that way and pinning societies' problems on single mothers is a cowardly move. It's a regressive thought pattern that discounts all the shitty things that still happened in a society full of traditional families. That's a tangent though, the point is that it isn't what the billboard is saying. The billboard is saying, "women in the kitchen, men in the fields, and the women better appreciate it"... Shouldn't the man appreciate as well? Nahhhh, not an important component of real manhood.
What is a man and woman's proper place? Trying to define that in the way the billboard does IS old fashioned, and it's based on age old assumptions of the weak mind and body of the female gender. Is that really something you want to support?
My wife sometimes makes more in a day than I do in a week's worth of honest, blue collar labor, so I work part-time and I stay home to raise my son. I cook, I clean, and I farm. I am deep in the weeds potty training a 22 month old boy, and when he takes a nap today I have to bust ass to get the whole house cleaned so that when Dr. Gambs gets back from her day moonlighting an hour away she can relax and enjoy the Pad Thai I am making for dinner and have a chill evening.
According to the billboard, with which you agree, I am not a real man. According to what you said, I am not in my proper place.
I have worked all my life and when I got married I worked harder to give my wife the chance to stay home and not work, let me tell you guys something. it's not easy being a stay home mom or dad for that matter, raising kids, maintaining a household and just taking care of a spouse's need and their own and kids is hard, exhausting physically and mentally ...believe me.. I see my wife at the end of the day and she's wiped out.
gambo, you are a good man. To me, that is a real man.
Knowing Tree, I get where she's coming from and that it's not BS to her, from her view and experiences. She is a real woman.
I think maybe it just comes down to some semblance of stability in life, and not the gender(s) of who provides that. While there's beauty in spontaneity, children need that construct of safety and routine. I don't care if it comes from one parent, from two...if two fathers or two mothers, whatever. We all need balance. And strong guides in our lives, so that maybe - MAYBE - we can do the same for others.
The most important thing for infants and children is attachment. Hell, that's probably the most important thing for all of us. Whether to their mother, their father, their two same sex parents, their single parent, their grandparents.... it's the attachment and loving care that matters.
There was no golden age of perfect families and perfectly happy children in some distant time when everyone knew their place and stayed in it. There is only loving and caring, or the absence of it.
Post edited by oftenreading on
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
To be fair to WH, I don't think she thinks of people like me as less than real men or women, it's just that WH deals in hard truths. I respect that, admire it even, and I am the same way. The only problem with that is when we tell hard truths we have to be careful not to simplify things to a point that does the truth disservice. What makes a real man can't be boiled down to a billboard, any attempt to do so will fall flat on it's face. For instance, many a man has toiled away his life to provide for a wife and kids he didn't even care to truly know or love, that's no kind of real man.
To be fair to WH, I don't think she thinks of people like me as less than real men or women, it's just that WH deals in hard truths. I respect that, admire it even, and I am the same way. The only problem with that is when we tell hard truths we have to be careful not to simplify things to a point that does the truth disservice. What makes a real man can't be boiled down to a billboard, any attempt to do so will fall flat on it's face. For instance, many a man has toiled away his life to provide for a wife and kids he didn't even care to truly know or love, that's no kind of real man.
Many people outwardly do the 'right' thing, but hardly qualify for awesomeness.
Everyone is better off the more egalitarian the roles are within a family. This goes across the board with work and parenting. I think the push back on that, and the pull to rely on more traditional roles is that the traditional role provides simplicity and comfort. It also can provide easier ways of answering more complex relationship issues that come up with couples and with parenting. When people over rely on these traditional roles, they sometimes draw conclusions about society that are wrong, such as with having kids in day care, or that divorce and single-parent households are always worse than a two parent household.
Strange...after reading all these posts, it's almost as though each family has an ever evolving, unique set-up catered to meet their financial and structural needs.
I agree with many of ya'll. I was just sharing my opinion. And since I am not all PC, ( hahahaha.. just read my posts), and know that I have a very different way of looking at things, I thought I'd round out the conversation some by adding that 1 out of a billion woman's opinion, that actually agrees with the basic principle being presented.
I am gonna catch crap for this.. but oh well, all sides covered right? I am a woman. I was raised in a split home, that caused major HELL in mine and my older sister's lives. BUT.. between living with my drug-addled mother and her psychotic Cuban husband, and living with my Dad and his wife, whom was ( and still is) a living definition of a Christian, I got to see both sides.. I 100% agree with the billboard. Here's why: Family is core to society.. any early childhood expert will explain that for the first 1-6 years, environment is key to development. Family is two parents, that love and care for one another and beyond. This day and edge of society is so full of crap and PC non sense that we barely love ourselves anymore... So much so, that women feel the need to fulfill men's roles in our lives. Maybe I am just too old fashioned.. or maybe I am just brain damaged from my childhood... but Gees what I wouldn't give for a society that had family in Mind and heart so deeply above self, that the core of family still existed. A mother, a father.. both in their proper places.. ( not saying that it works this way every time.. Clffy'sstory is proof of that), but that is what builds strong family. I honestly think a man should provide, and a woman should abide.. haha I just made that up.. but seriously.. anyhow.. just an Opinion from the village idiot..
The problem is that the bolded pieces are unrelated to the rest of the post, which is unrelated to the billboard. The breaking up of families and the rise of women providing the bulk of financial support are two different issues. I agree that, ideally, a child is raised by a mother and a father, but it doesn't always work out that way and pinning societies' problems on single mothers is a cowardly move. It's a regressive thought pattern that discounts all the shitty things that still happened in a society full of traditional families. That's a tangent though, the point is that it isn't what the billboard is saying. The billboard is saying, "women in the kitchen, men in the fields, and the women better appreciate it"... Shouldn't the man appreciate as well? Nahhhh, not an important component of real manhood.
What is a man and woman's proper place? Trying to define that in the way the billboard does IS old fashioned, and it's based on age old assumptions of the weak mind and body of the female gender. Is that really something you want to support?
My wife sometimes makes more in a day than I do in a week's worth of honest, blue collar labor, so I work part-time and I stay home to raise my son. I cook, I clean, and I farm. I am deep in the weeds potty training a 22 month old boy, and when he takes a nap today I have to bust ass to get the whole house cleaned so that when Dr. Gambs gets back from her day moonlighting an hour away she can relax and enjoy the Pad Thai I am making for dinner and have a chill evening.
According to the billboard, with which you agree, I am not a real man. According to what you said, I am not in my proper place.
That's all bullshit.
No. That is your choice. But like I admitted.. I see things differently. Trust me, you are a better dude than most Gambs.. I have just got a more traditional way of looking at relationships. Example: I don't believe in sex before marriage. ( yeah I know.. I'll die alone). Ps. My Dad lives on Disability, and my step mom works 80-90 hrs a week, as a GI nurse, and while I work as well, I also have to come home, prepare meals for both parents, and clean the house.. some days, if Dad feels ok, he'll do laundry.. but for the most part, we ladies do everything. Before he got sick, my stepmom had been a stay at home Mom. I think it kills my Dad a little bit each day knowing he can't take care of us, instead, it's the other way around. Everyone is different. The huge difference is what Offenreading said, the attachment factor. I doesn't really matter who wears the pants, and who wears the dress.. ( FIGURATIVELY guys.. and gals), just as long as the kids have both parents..that agree on a plan of action for their family.
I agree with many of ya'll. I was just sharing my opinion. And since I am not all PC, ( hahahaha.. just read my posts), and know that I have a very different way of looking at things, I thought I'd round out the conversation some by adding that 1 out of a billion woman's opinion, that actually agrees with the basic principle being presented.
I am gonna catch crap for this.. but oh well, all sides covered right? I am a woman. I was raised in a split home, that caused major HELL in mine and my older sister's lives. BUT.. between living with my drug-addled mother and her psychotic Cuban husband, and living with my Dad and his wife, whom was ( and still is) a living definition of a Christian, I got to see both sides.. I 100% agree with the billboard. Here's why: Family is core to society.. any early childhood expert will explain that for the first 1-6 years, environment is key to development. Family is two parents, that love and care for one another and beyond. This day and edge of society is so full of crap and PC non sense that we barely love ourselves anymore... So much so, that women feel the need to fulfill men's roles in our lives. Maybe I am just too old fashioned.. or maybe I am just brain damaged from my childhood... but Gees what I wouldn't give for a society that had family in Mind and heart so deeply above self, that the core of family still existed. A mother, a father.. both in their proper places.. ( not saying that it works this way every time.. Clffy'sstory is proof of that), but that is what builds strong family. I honestly think a man should provide, and a woman should abide.. haha I just made that up.. but seriously.. anyhow.. just an Opinion from the village idiot..
The problem is that the bolded pieces are unrelated to the rest of the post, which is unrelated to the billboard. The breaking up of families and the rise of women providing the bulk of financial support are two different issues. I agree that, ideally, a child is raised by a mother and a father, but it doesn't always work out that way and pinning societies' problems on single mothers is a cowardly move. It's a regressive thought pattern that discounts all the shitty things that still happened in a society full of traditional families. That's a tangent though, the point is that it isn't what the billboard is saying. The billboard is saying, "women in the kitchen, men in the fields, and the women better appreciate it"... Shouldn't the man appreciate as well? Nahhhh, not an important component of real manhood.
What is a man and woman's proper place? Trying to define that in the way the billboard does IS old fashioned, and it's based on age old assumptions of the weak mind and body of the female gender. Is that really something you want to support?
My wife sometimes makes more in a day than I do in a week's worth of honest, blue collar labor, so I work part-time and I stay home to raise my son. I cook, I clean, and I farm. I am deep in the weeds potty training a 22 month old boy, and when he takes a nap today I have to bust ass to get the whole house cleaned so that when Dr. Gambs gets back from her day moonlighting an hour away she can relax and enjoy the Pad Thai I am making for dinner and have a chill evening.
According to the billboard, with which you agree, I am not a real man. According to what you said, I am not in my proper place.
That's all bullshit.
No. That is your choice. But like I admitted.. I see things differently. Trust me, you are a better dude than most Gambs.. I have just got a more traditional way of looking at relationships. Example: I don't believe in sex before marriage. ( yeah I know.. I'll die alone). Ps. My Dad lives on Disability, and my step mom works 80-90 hrs a week, as a GI nurse, and while I work as well, I also have to come home, prepare meals for both parents, and clean the house.. some days, if Dad feels ok, he'll do laundry.. but for the most part, we ladies do everything. Before he got sick, my stepmom had been a stay at home Mom. I think it kills my Dad a little bit each day knowing he can't take care of us, instead, it's the other way around. Everyone is different. The huge difference is what Offenreading said, the attachment factor. I doesn't really matter who wears the pants, and who wears the dress.. ( FIGURATIVELY guys.. and gals), just as long as the kids have both parents..that agree on a plan of action for their family.
gambo, you are a good man. To me, that is a real man.
Knowing Tree, I get where she's coming from and that it's not BS to her, from her view and experiences. She is a real woman.
I think maybe it just comes down to some semblance of stability in life, and not the gender(s) of who provides that. While there's beauty in spontaneity, children need that construct of safety and routine. I don't care if it comes from one parent, from two...if two fathers or two mothers, whatever. We all need balance. And strong guides in our lives, so that maybe - MAYBE - we can do the same for others.
You said this much better than I did, thank you Hedo.
Considering I was raised by my divorced mother with very little to no help from my father, I say fuck that billboard and anybody that stands behind its message
Same. My dad remarried soon after and had another family. My half sister grew up getting whatever she wanted and at 25 is still being supported financially even though she is engaged. I still think I got the better end of the deal, never having to ask my parents for anything once I turned 18.
I grew up in a home with 2 working parents and I'm not confused about who's "supposed" to do what. But I will tell you I was raised to be independent and not rely on anyone. If you leave me I will survive.
Oh please let it rain today.
Those that can be trusted can change their mind.
I am gonna catch crap for this.. but oh well, all sides covered right? I am a woman. I was raised in a split home, that caused major HELL in mine and my older sister's lives. BUT.. between living with my drug-addled mother and her psychotic Cuban husband, and living with my Dad and his wife, whom was ( and still is) a living definition of a Christian, I got to see both sides.. I 100% agree with the billboard. Here's why: Family is core to society.. any early childhood expert will explain that for the first 1-6 years, environment is key to development. Family is two parents, that love and care for one another and beyond. This day and edge of society is so full of crap and PC non sense that we barely love ourselves anymore... So much so, that women feel the need to fulfill men's roles in our lives. Maybe I am just too old fashioned.. or maybe I am just brain damaged from my childhood... but Gees what I wouldn't give for a society that had family in Mind and heart so deeply above self, that the core of family still existed. A mother, a father.. both in their proper places.. ( not saying that it works this way every time.. Clffy'sstory is proof of that), but that is what builds strong family. I honestly think a man should provide, and a woman should abide.. haha I just made that up.. but seriously.. anyhow.. just an Opinion from the village idiot..
While I respect your opinion, I do disagree with some of your statement. Most of my women friends are scientists, doctors, or teachers. I don't believe any of us feel that we are fulfilling men's roles in our lives. We are, for the most part, doing work we love in subjects that we are passionate about. (And I am grateful to have worked part time when my son was young. As much as I enjoyed spending time with him, there were days when one more game of Candyland or reading of Barney's alphabet book would have driven me insane. Working was a lifesaver.)
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
^^^ I am thinking along the same lines mickeyrat. It is kind of like those random "Jesus Saves" signs that appear in random places. You kind of read them and wonder what the hell is that sign doing here?
I am gonna catch crap for this.. but oh well, all sides covered right? I am a woman. I was raised in a split home, that caused major HELL in mine and my older sister's lives. BUT.. between living with my drug-addled mother and her psychotic Cuban husband, and living with my Dad and his wife, whom was ( and still is) a living definition of a Christian, I got to see both sides.. I 100% agree with the billboard. Here's why: Family is core to society.. any early childhood expert will explain that for the first 1-6 years, environment is key to development. Family is two parents, that love and care for one another and beyond. This day and edge of society is so full of crap and PC non sense that we barely love ourselves anymore... So much so, that women feel the need to fulfill men's roles in our lives. Maybe I am just too old fashioned.. or maybe I am just brain damaged from my childhood... but Gees what I wouldn't give for a society that had family in Mind and heart so deeply above self, that the core of family still existed. A mother, a father.. both in their proper places.. ( not saying that it works this way every time.. Clffy'sstory is proof of that), but that is what builds strong family. I honestly think a man should provide, and a woman should abide.. haha I just made that up.. but seriously.. anyhow.. just an Opinion from the village idiot..
While I respect your opinion, I do disagree with some of your statement. Most of my women friends are scientists, doctors, or teachers. I don't believe any of us feel that we are fulfilling men's roles in our lives. We are, for the most part, doing work we love in subjects that we are passionate about. (And I am grateful to have worked part time when my son was young. As much as I enjoyed spending time with him, there were days when one more game of Candyland or reading of Barney's alphabet book would have driven me insane. Working was a lifesaver.)
I have this horrendous habit of not thinking out my posts.. when I said women feel the need to fulfill men's roles in life, all I meant was that women no longer have the desire to just be happy with being a housewife. That is the no.1 most important job in the WORLD.. but not that many women aspire to be the greatest at building better humans, cause now that there's liberated women (nothing at ALL wrong with this), no one wants to be a 'mommy' ( the kind that is just that.. a mommy.. no other job), anymore. However, a huge percentage of this falls from the tree of necessity; a dual income is pretty well needed these days. I just think it's sad, that women are so interested in having "real" jobs, but not in having that one REALLY important job of just raising kids. Again. This isn't fact, just my Opinion, which is drawn from being 7, and coming home from school, letting myself in the house, and waiting for my sister to get home, so she (9) could cook me some food. ( then my Mother married the psycho Cuban, and we lived -sister and I-in a pantry cupboard for two years...). When I finally got to go live with my Dad and HIS wife, whom was a stay at home mom, we got to see the difference, and it was HUGE! It made such a huge impact on me, that this principle has stuck with me. So.... just an opinion garnered from experience..
I am gonna catch crap for this.. but oh well, all sides covered right? I am a woman. I was raised in a split home, that caused major HELL in mine and my older sister's lives. BUT.. between living with my drug-addled mother and her psychotic Cuban husband, and living with my Dad and his wife, whom was ( and still is) a living definition of a Christian, I got to see both sides.. I 100% agree with the billboard. Here's why: Family is core to society.. any early childhood expert will explain that for the first 1-6 years, environment is key to development. Family is two parents, that love and care for one another and beyond. This day and edge of society is so full of crap and PC non sense that we barely love ourselves anymore... So much so, that women feel the need to fulfill men's roles in our lives. Maybe I am just too old fashioned.. or maybe I am just brain damaged from my childhood... but Gees what I wouldn't give for a society that had family in Mind and heart so deeply above self, that the core of family still existed. A mother, a father.. both in their proper places.. ( not saying that it works this way every time.. Clffy'sstory is proof of that), but that is what builds strong family. I honestly think a man should provide, and a woman should abide.. haha I just made that up.. but seriously.. anyhow.. just an Opinion from the village idiot..
While I respect your opinion, I do disagree with some of your statement. Most of my women friends are scientists, doctors, or teachers. I don't believe any of us feel that we are fulfilling men's roles in our lives. We are, for the most part, doing work we love in subjects that we are passionate about. (And I am grateful to have worked part time when my son was young. As much as I enjoyed spending time with him, there were days when one more game of Candyland or reading of Barney's alphabet book would have driven me insane. Working was a lifesaver.)
I have this horrendous habit of not thinking out my posts.. when I said women feel the need to fulfill men's roles in life, all I meant was that women no longer have the desire to just be happy with being a housewife. That is the no.1 most important job in the WORLD.. but not that many women aspire to be the greatest at building better humans, cause now that there's liberated women (nothing at ALL wrong with this), no one wants to be a 'mommy' ( the kind that is just that.. a mommy.. no other job), anymore. However, a huge percentage of this falls from the tree of necessity; a dual income is pretty well needed these days. I just think it's sad, that women are so interested in having "real" jobs, but not in having that one REALLY important job of just raising kids. Again. This isn't fact, just my Opinion, which is drawn from being 7, and coming home from school, letting myself in the house, and waiting for my sister to get home, so she (9) could cook me some food. ( then my Mother married the psycho Cuban, and we lived -sister and I-in a pantry cupboard for two years...). When I finally got to go live with my Dad and HIS wife, whom was a stay at home mom, we got to see the difference, and it was HUGE! It made such a huge impact on me, that this principle has stuck with me. So.... just an opinion garnered from experience..
"Being a housewife is the most important job in the world"? Seriously? I'm sure there are many many women who would heartily disagree with you on that. How about being a good mom? Or a good dad? Being a "good housewife" does not equate to being a good parent. There are generations of parents who have raised and provided for their families but have NOT been good mom's and dads.
I am gonna catch crap for this.. but oh well, all sides covered right? I am a woman. I was raised in a split home, that caused major HELL in mine and my older sister's lives. BUT.. between living with my drug-addled mother and her psychotic Cuban husband, and living with my Dad and his wife, whom was ( and still is) a living definition of a Christian, I got to see both sides.. I 100% agree with the billboard. Here's why: Family is core to society.. any early childhood expert will explain that for the first 1-6 years, environment is key to development. Family is two parents, that love and care for one another and beyond. This day and edge of society is so full of crap and PC non sense that we barely love ourselves anymore... So much so, that women feel the need to fulfill men's roles in our lives. Maybe I am just too old fashioned.. or maybe I am just brain damaged from my childhood... but Gees what I wouldn't give for a society that had family in Mind and heart so deeply above self, that the core of family still existed. A mother, a father.. both in their proper places.. ( not saying that it works this way every time.. Clffy'sstory is proof of that), but that is what builds strong family. I honestly think a man should provide, and a woman should abide.. haha I just made that up.. but seriously.. anyhow.. just an Opinion from the village idiot..
While I respect your opinion, I do disagree with some of your statement. Most of my women friends are scientists, doctors, or teachers. I don't believe any of us feel that we are fulfilling men's roles in our lives. We are, for the most part, doing work we love in subjects that we are passionate about. (And I am grateful to have worked part time when my son was young. As much as I enjoyed spending time with him, there were days when one more game of Candyland or reading of Barney's alphabet book would have driven me insane. Working was a lifesaver.)
I have this horrendous habit of not thinking out my posts.. when I said women feel the need to fulfill men's roles in life, all I meant was that women no longer have the desire to just be happy with being a housewife. That is the no.1 most important job in the WORLD.. but not that many women aspire to be the greatest at building better humans, cause now that there's liberated women (nothing at ALL wrong with this), no one wants to be a 'mommy' ( the kind that is just that.. a mommy.. no other job), anymore. However, a huge percentage of this falls from the tree of necessity; a dual income is pretty well needed these days. I just think it's sad, that women are so interested in having "real" jobs, but not in having that one REALLY important job of just raising kids. Again. This isn't fact, just my Opinion, which is drawn from being 7, and coming home from school, letting myself in the house, and waiting for my sister to get home, so she (9) could cook me some food. ( then my Mother married the psycho Cuban, and we lived -sister and I-in a pantry cupboard for two years...). When I finally got to go live with my Dad and HIS wife, whom was a stay at home mom, we got to see the difference, and it was HUGE! It made such a huge impact on me, that this principle has stuck with me. So.... just an opinion garnered from experience..
Respectfully, helping a child properly develop is not as binary as you make it sound, nor is it as intrinsically linked to the family roles as you've stated. Not every dual-income household leaves a child to fend for him or herself, and not every housewife or househusband gives a child the attention he or she needs for optimal development. You can aspire to have a career outside of the house, and aspire to be a good parent, and have those aspirations coexist. A provider of care and a provider of financial stability should really be seen as equally noble.
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EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I am gonna catch crap for this.. but oh well, all sides covered right? I am a woman. I was raised in a split home, that caused major HELL in mine and my older sister's lives. BUT.. between living with my drug-addled mother and her psychotic Cuban husband, and living with my Dad and his wife, whom was ( and still is) a living definition of a Christian, I got to see both sides.. I 100% agree with the billboard. Here's why: Family is core to society.. any early childhood expert will explain that for the first 1-6 years, environment is key to development. Family is two parents, that love and care for one another and beyond. This day and edge of society is so full of crap and PC non sense that we barely love ourselves anymore... So much so, that women feel the need to fulfill men's roles in our lives. Maybe I am just too old fashioned.. or maybe I am just brain damaged from my childhood... but Gees what I wouldn't give for a society that had family in Mind and heart so deeply above self, that the core of family still existed. A mother, a father.. both in their proper places.. ( not saying that it works this way every time.. Clffy'sstory is proof of that), but that is what builds strong family. I honestly think a man should provide, and a woman should abide.. haha I just made that up.. but seriously.. anyhow.. just an Opinion from the village idiot..
While I respect your opinion, I do disagree with some of your statement. Most of my women friends are scientists, doctors, or teachers. I don't believe any of us feel that we are fulfilling men's roles in our lives. We are, for the most part, doing work we love in subjects that we are passionate about. (And I am grateful to have worked part time when my son was young. As much as I enjoyed spending time with him, there were days when one more game of Candyland or reading of Barney's alphabet book would have driven me insane. Working was a lifesaver.)
I have this horrendous habit of not thinking out my posts.. when I said women feel the need to fulfill men's roles in life, all I meant was that women no longer have the desire to just be happy with being a housewife. That is the no.1 most important job in the WORLD.. but not that many women aspire to be the greatest at building better humans, cause now that there's liberated women (nothing at ALL wrong with this), no one wants to be a 'mommy' ( the kind that is just that.. a mommy.. no other job), anymore. However, a huge percentage of this falls from the tree of necessity; a dual income is pretty well needed these days. I just think it's sad, that women are so interested in having "real" jobs, but not in having that one REALLY important job of just raising kids. Again. This isn't fact, just my Opinion, which is drawn from being 7, and coming home from school, letting myself in the house, and waiting for my sister to get home, so she (9) could cook me some food. ( then my Mother married the psycho Cuban, and we lived -sister and I-in a pantry cupboard for two years...). When I finally got to go live with my Dad and HIS wife, whom was a stay at home mom, we got to see the difference, and it was HUGE! It made such a huge impact on me, that this principle has stuck with me. So.... just an opinion garnered from experience..
Respectfully, helping a child properly develop is not as binary as you make it sound, nor is it as intrinsically linked to the family roles as you've stated. Not every dual-income household leaves a child to fend for him or herself, and not every housewife or househusband gives a child the attention he or she needs for optimal development. You can aspire to have a career outside of the house, and aspire to be a good parent, and have those aspirations coexist. A provider of care and a provider of financial stability should really be seen as equally noble.
Exactly. And adhering to rigid, outdated gender roles makes having a happier, balanced family less likely.
my mom quit work when my brother was born. she went back to work when we were old enough to come home from school without supervision.
that said, the dad-goes-to-work and mom-stays-at-home is an antiquated notion based on nothing but the oppression of women by the patriarchal state and was allowed because you simply did not need two incomes to survive back then.
individual circumstances and upbringings are irrelevant to this discussion. that's not objective.
there are no natural "roles" based on gender. that is society-induced. in my world, men and women are equal and whatever works for their family is what works for their family.
let's reverse that billboard and state what it's really saying:
Real Women submit to her husband's every whim Real Men take advantage of that
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I am a woman. I was raised in a split home, that caused major HELL in mine and my older sister's lives. BUT.. between living with my drug-addled mother and her psychotic Cuban husband, and living with my Dad and his wife, whom was ( and still is) a living definition of a Christian, I got to see both sides.. I 100% agree with the billboard.
Here's why:
Family is core to society.. any early childhood expert will explain that for the first 1-6 years, environment is key to development. Family is two parents, that love and care for one another and beyond. This day and edge of society is so full of crap and PC non sense that we barely love ourselves anymore... So much so, that women feel the need to fulfill men's roles in our lives. Maybe I am just too old fashioned.. or maybe I am just brain damaged from my childhood... but Gees what I wouldn't give for a society that had family in
Mind and heart so deeply above self, that the core of family still existed. A mother, a father.. both in their proper places.. ( not saying that it works this way every time.. Clffy'sstory is proof of that), but that is what builds strong family. I honestly think a man should provide, and a woman should abide.. haha I just made that up.. but seriously.. anyhow.. just an
Opinion from the village idiot..
I guess my first question would be if you feel women naturally possess skills that leave them better suited to home life than men, and whether men naturally possess skills that leave them better suited to work life than women.
Next question - if that is the case, could that be because they have learnt and become adept at those skills from witnessing society do the same thing before their chance to raise a family? In other words, if people committed their energies to learning how to fulfill both roles, could they do either just as well?
Finally, with the reality moving towards dual-income parenting by necessity, do you not feel there could be strategies, tools, assistance put in place to recreate the nurturing for development that a child would have received in a traditional nuclear family?
A nuclear family may be ideal, but sometimes ideal is not tenable. Rather than looking at what was, I think you've misinterpreted society's aspirations - it's just trying to make the best of what currently is.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
My wife and I sacrificed so that my wife stayed at home until the kids were in elementary school. We didn't want our kids in daycare and institutionalized (no judgements on anyone doing it differently).
She assumed the house duties because I had a better job than her. It wasn't gender related. And she worked just as hard as I (providing) at home. We were a team.
Once the kids started school, she got a job and has contributed financially. We're still a team.
The sign displays so much ignorance.
The breaking up of families and the rise of women providing the bulk of financial support are two different issues. I agree that, ideally, a child is raised by a mother and a father, but it doesn't always work out that way and pinning societies' problems on single mothers is a cowardly move. It's a regressive thought pattern that discounts all the shitty things that still happened in a society full of traditional families. That's a tangent though, the point is that it isn't what the billboard is saying. The billboard is saying, "women in the kitchen, men in the fields, and the women better appreciate it"... Shouldn't the man appreciate as well? Nahhhh, not an important component of real manhood.
What is a man and woman's proper place? Trying to define that in the way the billboard does IS old fashioned, and it's based on age old assumptions of the weak mind and body of the female gender. Is that really something you want to support?
My wife sometimes makes more in a day than I do in a week's worth of honest, blue collar labor, so I work part-time and I stay home to raise my son. I cook, I clean, and I farm. I am deep in the weeds potty training a 22 month old boy, and when he takes a nap today I have to bust ass to get the whole house cleaned so that when Dr. Gambs gets back from her day moonlighting an hour away she can relax and enjoy the Pad Thai I am making for dinner and have a chill evening.
According to the billboard, with which you agree, I am not a real man.
According to what you said, I am not in my proper place.
That's all bullshit.
Knowing Tree, I get where she's coming from and that it's not BS to her, from her view and experiences. She is a real woman.
I think maybe it just comes down to some semblance of stability in life, and not the gender(s) of who provides that. While there's beauty in spontaneity, children need that construct of safety and routine. I don't care if it comes from one parent, from two...if two fathers or two mothers, whatever. We all need balance. And strong guides in our lives, so that maybe - MAYBE - we can do the same for others.
There was no golden age of perfect families and perfectly happy children in some distant time when everyone knew their place and stayed in it. There is only loving and caring, or the absence of it.
posts), and know that I have a very different way of looking at things, I thought I'd round out the conversation some by adding that 1 out of a billion woman's opinion, that actually agrees with the basic principle being presented. No. That is your choice. But like I admitted.. I see things differently. Trust me, you are a better dude than most Gambs.. I have just got a more traditional way of looking at relationships. Example: I don't believe in sex before marriage. ( yeah I know.. I'll die alone). Ps. My Dad lives on Disability, and my step mom works 80-90 hrs a week, as a GI nurse, and while I work as well, I also have to come home, prepare meals for both parents, and clean the house.. some days, if Dad feels ok, he'll do laundry.. but for the most part, we ladies do everything. Before he got sick, my stepmom had been a stay at home Mom. I think it kills my Dad a little bit each day knowing he can't take care of us, instead, it's the other way around. Everyone is different. The huge difference is what Offenreading said, the attachment factor. I doesn't really matter who wears the pants, and who wears the dress.. ( FIGURATIVELY guys.. and gals), just as long as the kids have both parents..that agree on a plan of action for their family.
I grew up in a home with 2 working parents and I'm not confused about who's "supposed" to do what. But I will tell you I was raised to be independent and not rely on anyone. If you leave me I will survive.
Those that can be trusted can change their mind.
one thing I do know. it says nothing about children, marriage, family etc.....
so my question is , provide what exactly? Appreciate what exactly?
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I am thinking along the same lines mickeyrat.
It is kind of like those random "Jesus Saves" signs that appear in random places.
You kind of read them and wonder what the hell is that sign doing here?
when I said women feel the need to fulfill men's roles in life, all I meant was that women no longer have the desire to just be happy with being a housewife. That is the no.1 most important job in the WORLD.. but not that many women aspire to be the greatest at building better humans, cause now that there's liberated women (nothing at ALL wrong with this), no one wants to be a 'mommy' ( the kind that is just that.. a mommy.. no other job), anymore. However, a huge percentage of this falls from the tree of necessity; a dual income is pretty well needed these days. I just think it's sad, that women are so interested in having "real" jobs, but not in having that one REALLY important job of just raising kids.
Again. This isn't fact, just my
Opinion, which is drawn from being 7, and coming home from school, letting myself in the house, and waiting for my sister to get home, so she (9) could cook me some food. ( then my
Mother married the psycho Cuban, and we lived -sister and I-in a pantry cupboard for two years...). When I finally got to go live with my Dad and HIS wife, whom was a stay at home mom, we got to see the difference, and it was HUGE! It made such a huge impact on me, that this principle has stuck with me. So.... just an opinion garnered from experience..
Seriously?
I'm sure there are many many women who would heartily disagree with you on that.
How about being a good mom?
Or a good dad?
Being a "good housewife" does not equate to being a good parent.
There are generations of parents who have raised and provided for their families but have NOT been good mom's and dads.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
that said, the dad-goes-to-work and mom-stays-at-home is an antiquated notion based on nothing but the oppression of women by the patriarchal state and was allowed because you simply did not need two incomes to survive back then.
individual circumstances and upbringings are irrelevant to this discussion. that's not objective.
there are no natural "roles" based on gender. that is society-induced. in my world, men and women are equal and whatever works for their family is what works for their family.
let's reverse that billboard and state what it's really saying:
Real Women submit to her husband's every whim
Real Men take advantage of that
how the hell is that not offensive?
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