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Obama, "Illegals can vote"

unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
in A Moving Train
Nope, no voter fraud, move along pleb.

https://youtu.be/AQKAz7l5Es4

Comments

  • JimmyVJimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,311
    "When you vote you are a citizen yourself."

    Because only citizens can vote.

    Because illegals cannot vote.

    Her question was strange. His answer was spot on.
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • a5pja5pj Hershey PA Posts: 3,910
    Just heard of a co-workers friend who early voted by mail for Trump, then went to early vote in person and was arrested. Thank goodness there are protections in place to make voter fraud non-existent. phew
    Wouldn't it be funny if the world ended in 2010, with lots of fire?



  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 16,030
    Good to know that some rules are still enforced, well only for the non-connected I guess.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 37,367
    hell, I've voted 7 times already. and I'm canadian. Pays to be a left-leaning member of the pearl jam fanclub.

    membership has its priveleges.

    dems for world domination!!!
    "Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk"
    -EV  8/14/93




  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 37,367
    obama and I have a good laugh at this every time I visit him on weekends in kenya.
    "Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk"
    -EV  8/14/93




  • Boxes&BooksBoxes&Books USA Posts: 2,672
    edited November 2016
    I dislike the term illegal, in this context.

    Have a wonderful day everyone.

    Edit: forgot to add the smiley face
    :)
    Post edited by Boxes&Books on
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 37,367
    The clip that aired on Fox, though, did not include Obama’s follow-up remarks, in which the president said, “If you have a family member who maybe is undocumented, then you have an even greater reason to vote.”

    “This has been a huge fear presented especially during this election,” Rodriguez noted.

    Obama than added: “And the reason that fear is promoted is because they don’t want people voting. People are discouraged from voting and part of what is important for Latino citizens is to make your voice heard, because you’re not just speaking for yourself. You’re speaking for family members, friends, classmates of yours in school… who may not have a voice. Who can’t legally vote. But they’re counting on you to make sure that you have the courage to make your voice heard.”
    "Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk"
    -EV  8/14/93




  • Boxes&BooksBoxes&Books USA Posts: 2,672
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    The clip that aired on Fox, though, did not include Obama’s follow-up remarks, in which the president said, “If you have a family member who maybe is undocumented, then you have an even greater reason to vote.”

    “This has been a huge fear presented especially during this election,” Rodriguez noted.

    Obama than added: “And the reason that fear is promoted is because they don’t want people voting. People are discouraged from voting and part of what is important for Latino citizens is to make your voice heard, because you’re not just speaking for yourself. You’re speaking for family members, friends, classmates of yours in school… who may not have a voice. Who can’t legally vote. But they’re counting on you to make sure that you have the courage to make your voice heard.”


    Man, I don't want to get into this discussion.

    Did Obama mention the taco trucks? That really gets out the vote.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,328
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    hell, I've voted 7 times already. and I'm canadian. Pays to be a left-leaning member of the pearl jam fanclub.

    membership has its priveleges.

    dems for world domination!!!

    You go, Hugh! :lol:
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 37,367
    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    I say this all the time to people. not once have I received a non-eye-rolled response.
    "Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk"
    -EV  8/14/93




  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited November 2016
    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    I was born on this land, I did not immigrate to it. My ancestors way down the line maybe...but I doubt there were many voting laws back then...
  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 16,030
    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    Nobody is disputing legal immigration.
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    I say this all the time to people. not once have I received a non-eye-rolled response.
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    I say this all the time to people. not once have I received a non-eye-rolled response.
    Well I for one will not roll my eyes at you ...
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,486
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    I say this all the time to people. not once have I received a non-eye-rolled response.
    I roll my eyes because it isn't a fair analogy. Because my ancestors came here legally and went through Ellis Island, that means we should ignore all immigration laws and just let anyone in and vote? Or rewind a few hundred more years to the first pilgrims, and say how unfair it is we inhabited their land. Sure, we didn't do it in the right way, but what does that have to do with current immigration laws with a country that we established on this land that was previously occupied by people stuck in the stone age?
    There are still lots of legal immigrants to the US, and lots become citizens and vote. I don't see what that has to do with allowing people to do it illegally.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 37,367
    mace1229 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    I say this all the time to people. not once have I received a non-eye-rolled response.
    I roll my eyes because it isn't a fair analogy. Because my ancestors came here legally and went through Ellis Island, that means we should ignore all immigration laws and just let anyone in and vote? Or rewind a few hundred more years to the first pilgrims, and say how unfair it is we inhabited their land. Sure, we didn't do it in the right way, but what does that have to do with current immigration laws with a country that we established on this land that was previously occupied by people stuck in the stone age?
    There are still lots of legal immigrants to the US, and lots become citizens and vote. I don't see what that has to do with allowing people to do it illegally.
    his comment has nothing to do with voting. it was a general comment basically saying we are the descendents of immigrants and want to close the door on others. i was responding to that. I see email chains and facebook posts starting up, oh, right about now, about "keep christ in christmas" "fuck happy holidays! you don't like it! go back to your country" type bullshit.

    them "stuck in the stone age" gave no one the right to slaughter them and steal their land.

    "didn't do it the right way" is the understatement of the last 200 years.
    "Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk"
    -EV  8/14/93




  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    bootlegger10 said:

    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    Nobody is disputing legal immigration.
    mace1229 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    I say this all the time to people. not once have I received a non-eye-rolled response.
    I roll my eyes because it isn't a fair analogy. Because my ancestors came here legally and went through Ellis Island, that means we should ignore all immigration laws and just let anyone in and vote? Or rewind a few hundred more years to the first pilgrims, and say how unfair it is we inhabited their land. Sure, we didn't do it in the right way, but what does that have to do with current immigration laws with a country that we established on this land that was previously occupied by people stuck in the stone age?
    There are still lots of legal immigrants to the US, and lots become citizens and vote. I don't see what that has to do with allowing people
    to do it illegally.
    LMFAO ... you just don't get it do you? You, your and my ancestors are living on stolen land, period. How hard is that to understand, thats why I don't give a shit about Obama being the first black president or Clinton being the first woman president means shit to me, absolutely nothing ... want to impress me, when a first nation person become president then I'll be impressed, until then you, me and any non first nations person is living on stolen land...so whenever I get a chance I will always encourage our governments to properly engage our first nations people's and get on with the business of dealing respectfully with our first nations people. At least here in Canada our first nations are a thought for our politicians during elections, then their needs become an afterthought as usual...
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,486
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    mace1229 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    I say this all the time to people. not once have I received a non-eye-rolled response.
    I roll my eyes because it isn't a fair analogy. Because my ancestors came here legally and went through Ellis Island, that means we should ignore all immigration laws and just let anyone in and vote? Or rewind a few hundred more years to the first pilgrims, and say how unfair it is we inhabited their land. Sure, we didn't do it in the right way, but what does that have to do with current immigration laws with a country that we established on this land that was previously occupied by people stuck in the stone age?
    There are still lots of legal immigrants to the US, and lots become citizens and vote. I don't see what that has to do with allowing people to do it illegally.
    his comment has nothing to do with voting. it was a general comment basically saying we are the descendents of immigrants and want to close the door on others. i was responding to that. I see email chains and facebook posts starting up, oh, right about now, about "keep christ in christmas" "fuck happy holidays! you don't like it! go back to your country" type bullshit.

    them "stuck in the stone age" gave no one the right to slaughter them and steal their land.

    "didn't do it the right way" is the understatement of the last 200 years.
    I can think of bigger understatements.
    Of course it didn't give anyone the right and I said that. Apparently wasn't dramatic enough. I only mention the stone age because there was no government here, just groups of people literally living in prehistoric conditions who were killing each other as fast as the early Americans did. It was wrong to slaughter them.
    Voting or not, I still don't see the relation. At least when I hear it, the statement "we are all immigrants" almost always is used as a put-down to those who believe in immigration laws and as an explanation for open-boarders, or at least less strict immigration laws. And seems to be the intended purpose here.
    I just don't think you can compare people coming into a land without any government, to our immigration laws today of our government and say based on my ancestors it is unfair.
    Yes, most of our ancestors are immigrants. Most by the law or before there was a law to begin with, and many even brought here against their will as slaves. Doesn't have anything to do with immigration today though.
    Like just about any country as old as ours, there are some horrible aspects to our history. What does that have to do with today? Because my ancestors were immigrants we have to be easy on immigration today?
    And no one wants to "close the doors on others." I have never heard from anyone, other than those misrepresenting what others think. We just see the need for laws and the necessity to follow them.
    Let others come....legally.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,486
    lukin2006 said:

    bootlegger10 said:

    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    Nobody is disputing legal immigration.
    mace1229 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    I say this all the time to people. not once have I received a non-eye-rolled response.
    I roll my eyes because it isn't a fair analogy. Because my ancestors came here legally and went through Ellis Island, that means we should ignore all immigration laws and just let anyone in and vote? Or rewind a few hundred more years to the first pilgrims, and say how unfair it is we inhabited their land. Sure, we didn't do it in the right way, but what does that have to do with current immigration laws with a country that we established on this land that was previously occupied by people stuck in the stone age?
    There are still lots of legal immigrants to the US, and lots become citizens and vote. I don't see what that has to do with allowing people
    to do it illegally.
    LMFAO ... you just don't get it do you? You, your and my ancestors are living on stolen land, period. How hard is that to understand, thats why I don't give a shit about Obama being the first black president or Clinton being the first woman president means shit to me, absolutely nothing ... want to impress me, when a first nation person become president then I'll be impressed, until then you, me and any non first nations person is living on stolen land...so whenever I get a chance I will always encourage our governments to properly engage our first nations people's and get on with the business of dealing respectfully with our first nations people. At least here in Canada our first nations are a thought for our politicians during elections, then their needs become an afterthought as usual...
    They lived on stolen land too. Your history books told you they all lived in peace and harmony together? They killed each other and stole land as fast as we did.
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    edited November 2016
    mace1229 said:

    lukin2006 said:

    bootlegger10 said:

    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    Nobody is disputing legal immigration.
    mace1229 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    I say this all the time to people. not once have I received a non-eye-rolled response.
    I roll my eyes because it isn't a fair analogy. Because my ancestors came here legally and went through Ellis Island, that means we should ignore all immigration laws and just let anyone in and vote? Or rewind a few hundred more years to the first pilgrims, and say how unfair it is we inhabited their land. Sure, we didn't do it in the right way, but what does that have to do with current immigration laws with a country that we established on this land that was previously occupied by people stuck in the stone age?
    There are still lots of legal immigrants to the US, and lots become citizens and vote. I don't see what that has to do with allowing people
    to do it illegally.
    LMFAO ... you just don't get it do you? You, your and my ancestors are living on stolen land, period. How hard is that to understand, thats why I don't give a shit about Obama being the first black president or Clinton being the first woman president means shit to me, absolutely nothing ... want to impress me, when a first nation person become president then I'll be impressed, until then you, me and any non first nations person is living on stolen land...so whenever I get a chance I will always encourage our governments to properly engage our first nations people's and get on with the business of dealing respectfully with our first nations people. At least here in Canada our first nations are a thought for our politicians during elections, then their needs become an afterthought as usual...
    They lived on stolen land too. Your history books told you they all lived in peace and harmony together? They killed each other and stole land as fast as we did.
    Actually I'm quite aware of their violent past, but its general consensus they were here in mass first ... which is why we call them first nations people...it is amusing how you can justify our poor treatment of first nations people by using their violent past which took place on their own land on the continent they belong too...but something tells me far fewer first nations people perished during their disputes than did once the europeans showed up in mass, not to mention the over hunting and destruction of traditional first nations people hunting grounds...
    Post edited by lukin2006 on
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 37,367
    mace1229 said:

    lukin2006 said:

    bootlegger10 said:

    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    Nobody is disputing legal immigration.
    mace1229 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    I say this all the time to people. not once have I received a non-eye-rolled response.
    I roll my eyes because it isn't a fair analogy. Because my ancestors came here legally and went through Ellis Island, that means we should ignore all immigration laws and just let anyone in and vote? Or rewind a few hundred more years to the first pilgrims, and say how unfair it is we inhabited their land. Sure, we didn't do it in the right way, but what does that have to do with current immigration laws with a country that we established on this land that was previously occupied by people stuck in the stone age?
    There are still lots of legal immigrants to the US, and lots become citizens and vote. I don't see what that has to do with allowing people
    to do it illegally.
    LMFAO ... you just don't get it do you? You, your and my ancestors are living on stolen land, period. How hard is that to understand, thats why I don't give a shit about Obama being the first black president or Clinton being the first woman president means shit to me, absolutely nothing ... want to impress me, when a first nation person become president then I'll be impressed, until then you, me and any non first nations person is living on stolen land...so whenever I get a chance I will always encourage our governments to properly engage our first nations people's and get on with the business of dealing respectfully with our first nations people. At least here in Canada our first nations are a thought for our politicians during elections, then their needs become an afterthought as usual...
    They lived on stolen land too. Your history books told you they all lived in peace and harmony together? They killed each other and stole land as fast as we did.
    one has zero to do with the other. all across the globe different tribes and groups war over territory. all animals do that, including humans. doesn't mean it was ok to come here and try to wipe them out and then say "hey, we came here and slaughtered everyone, BUT IT WAS TOTALLY LEGAL, now no one else gets in, mmmkay?".
    "Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk"
    -EV  8/14/93




  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    Sanctity of the vote!
    Precincts in Philly opened at 845 not 7 and with only 1 machine at 940 they installed another machine. There was a line of 20 at 7am most left by 730.
    Officials say...historically low voter turnout, they never had lines and the person manning the station quit.
    Democracy in action!
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 33,880
    edited November 2016
    JC29856 said:

    Sanctity of the vote!
    Precincts in Philly opened at 845 not 7 and with only 1 machine at 940 they installed another machine. There was a line of 20 at 7am most left by 730.
    Officials say...historically low voter turnout, they never had lines and the person manning the station quit.
    Democracy in action!

    Where are you seeing this? Haven't seen anything about this here in Philly. This would be Hillary voters though.

    There were late arriving machines for a co-workers precinct but it was open on time.
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, Colorado Posts: 10,823
    JC29856 said:

    Sanctity of the vote!
    Precincts in Philly opened at 845 not 7 and with only 1 machine at 940 they installed another machine. There was a line of 20 at 7am most left by 730.
    Officials say...historically low voter turnout, they never had lines and the person manning the station quit.
    Democracy in action!

    Precincts?
    Every precinct open late with only one working machine?

    Okie doke
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,486
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    mace1229 said:

    lukin2006 said:

    bootlegger10 said:

    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    Nobody is disputing legal immigration.
    mace1229 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    I say this all the time to people. not once have I received a non-eye-rolled response.
    I roll my eyes because it isn't a fair analogy. Because my ancestors came here legally and went through Ellis Island, that means we should ignore all immigration laws and just let anyone in and vote? Or rewind a few hundred more years to the first pilgrims, and say how unfair it is we inhabited their land. Sure, we didn't do it in the right way, but what does that have to do with current immigration laws with a country that we established on this land that was previously occupied by people stuck in the stone age?
    There are still lots of legal immigrants to the US, and lots become citizens and vote. I don't see what that has to do with allowing people
    to do it illegally.
    LMFAO ... you just don't get it do you? You, your and my ancestors are living on stolen land, period. How hard is that to understand, thats why I don't give a shit about Obama being the first black president or Clinton being the first woman president means shit to me, absolutely nothing ... want to impress me, when a first nation person become president then I'll be impressed, until then you, me and any non first nations person is living on stolen land...so whenever I get a chance I will always encourage our governments to properly engage our first nations people's and get on with the business of dealing respectfully with our first nations people. At least here in Canada our first nations are a thought for our politicians during elections, then their needs become an afterthought as usual...
    They lived on stolen land too. Your history books told you they all lived in peace and harmony together? They killed each other and stole land as fast as we did.
    one has zero to do with the other. all across the globe different tribes and groups war over territory. all animals do that, including humans. doesn't mean it was ok to come here and try to wipe them out and then say "hey, we came here and slaughtered everyone, BUT IT WAS TOTALLY LEGAL, now no one else gets in, mmmkay?".
    I agree one doesn't have anything to do with the other, until the argument for illegal immigration is using immigration laws from hundreds of years ago, or the argument that my ancestors were immigrants to explain how our current immigration laws are not right, then I think its a fair point to bring up-because the opposing argument brought it up not me. So if an argument is that we're on stolen land so we have no right to it, then tell me which native tribe has the rights who didn't steal it from each other? Most likely a tribe we've never heard of because they've been wiped out for thousands of years when they got their land stolen by a stronger, bigger tribe. And like you said, its part of animal and human nature, so why are we held accountable for what happened hundreds of years ago, but no one else?

    Here are the issues I have with the previous statements.
    Because Europeans came and took over the land and established a government where there was previously no government hundreds of years ago, based on that we don't have the right to enforce immigration laws when we create an established government, arguable one of the best in the world?

    Second: "now no one else gets in, mmmkay?" 100% untrue. Why does everyone for open boarders or lesser immigration laws claim we don't let anyone in? There are millions of LEGAL immigrants who have come to this country in the last few years. No one is saying close all boarders and let no one in- no one. (I'm sorry if my assumption on your immigration stance is incorrect, but everyone else I know who makes similar claims also wants open boarders, so I believe it is a fair assumption.)

    Why does our nation's history mean we can no longer be a nation-because in order to be a nation you need boarders and you need to enforce those boarders. No other nation doesn't.
    I'm not saying what happened was okay. I am saying just because it happened doesn't mean we can't enforce immigration laws today.
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    Cliffy6745 said:

    JC29856 said:

    Sanctity of the vote!
    Precincts in Philly opened at 845 not 7 and with only 1 machine at 940 they installed another machine. There was a line of 20 at 7am most left by 730.
    Officials say...historically low voter turnout, they never had lines and the person manning the station quit.
    Democracy in action!

    Where are you seeing this? Haven't seen anything about this here in Philly. This would be Hillary voters though.

    There were late arriving machines for a co-workers precinct but it was open on time.
    Was on Fox29 Philly...maybe it's on their website.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 37,367
    mace1229 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    mace1229 said:

    lukin2006 said:

    bootlegger10 said:

    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    Nobody is disputing legal immigration.
    mace1229 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    lukin2006 said:

    Unless your a first nations person, your living on stolen land and your all immigrants...

    I say this all the time to people. not once have I received a non-eye-rolled response.
    I roll my eyes because it isn't a fair analogy. Because my ancestors came here legally and went through Ellis Island, that means we should ignore all immigration laws and just let anyone in and vote? Or rewind a few hundred more years to the first pilgrims, and say how unfair it is we inhabited their land. Sure, we didn't do it in the right way, but what does that have to do with current immigration laws with a country that we established on this land that was previously occupied by people stuck in the stone age?
    There are still lots of legal immigrants to the US, and lots become citizens and vote. I don't see what that has to do with allowing people
    to do it illegally.
    LMFAO ... you just don't get it do you? You, your and my ancestors are living on stolen land, period. How hard is that to understand, thats why I don't give a shit about Obama being the first black president or Clinton being the first woman president means shit to me, absolutely nothing ... want to impress me, when a first nation person become president then I'll be impressed, until then you, me and any non first nations person is living on stolen land...so whenever I get a chance I will always encourage our governments to properly engage our first nations people's and get on with the business of dealing respectfully with our first nations people. At least here in Canada our first nations are a thought for our politicians during elections, then their needs become an afterthought as usual...
    They lived on stolen land too. Your history books told you they all lived in peace and harmony together? They killed each other and stole land as fast as we did.
    one has zero to do with the other. all across the globe different tribes and groups war over territory. all animals do that, including humans. doesn't mean it was ok to come here and try to wipe them out and then say "hey, we came here and slaughtered everyone, BUT IT WAS TOTALLY LEGAL, now no one else gets in, mmmkay?".
    I agree one doesn't have anything to do with the other, until the argument for illegal immigration is using immigration laws from hundreds of years ago, or the argument that my ancestors were immigrants to explain how our current immigration laws are not right, then I think its a fair point to bring up-because the opposing argument brought it up not me. So if an argument is that we're on stolen land so we have no right to it, then tell me which native tribe has the rights who didn't steal it from each other? Most likely a tribe we've never heard of because they've been wiped out for thousands of years when they got their land stolen by a stronger, bigger tribe. And like you said, its part of animal and human nature, so why are we held accountable for what happened hundreds of years ago, but no one else?

    Here are the issues I have with the previous statements.
    Because Europeans came and took over the land and established a government where there was previously no government hundreds of years ago, based on that we don't have the right to enforce immigration laws when we create an established government, arguable one of the best in the world?

    Second: "now no one else gets in, mmmkay?" 100% untrue. Why does everyone for open boarders or lesser immigration laws claim we don't let anyone in? There are millions of LEGAL immigrants who have come to this country in the last few years. No one is saying close all boarders and let no one in- no one. (I'm sorry if my assumption on your immigration stance is incorrect, but everyone else I know who makes similar claims also wants open boarders, so I believe it is a fair assumption.)

    Why does our nation's history mean we can no longer be a nation-because in order to be a nation you need boarders and you need to enforce those boarders. No other nation doesn't.
    I'm not saying what happened was okay. I am saying just because it happened doesn't mean we can't enforce immigration laws today.
    all your points are fair. the "now no one gets in, mmmkay" is more of a comment from me about all the anti-immigrant pro-christian values of our "nation's founders" rhretoric I hear at this time of year (my Mom-and also some friends-sends emails and posts shit on facbeook all the time about this). it drives me insane. that was the point I was trying to make, which was in direct response to lukin's comment, which may or may not have been related to current immigration laws. I think we may be debating apples and oranges here.

    And no, I don't want open borders. I'm not even totally clear on what that means. I think responsible immigration is where it's at.
    "Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk"
    -EV  8/14/93




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