Not everyone bases things on purely subjective factors. Flow states (synchronicity between the musicians) and peaks in music can be measured relatively objectively by moments of unintentional disharmony, missed notes/beats, cracking voices, and general screw ups in timing between the band members. These things aren't subjective and can be independently measured with a high level of reliability.
I'm not debating that's true; most people don't think that deeply and I'm not sure OP was asking that. I agree that a good bulk of people will base things on subjective factors more than anything else though, and that isn't a great criteria for picking the stronger shows from the weaker shows, IMO.
To wit, if the band came out on stage completely drunk and couldn't put four notes together as a group before puking on the stage and passing out, is it still a good show?
Most would agree that that would be a bad show, but that's because there are SOME level of objective factors we'd all point to - attendance by all 5 members, singing MOST of the lyrics (sorry Ed), playing many of their songs, playing for a certain period of time (call it longer than two hours for PJ standards) etc. My point isn't that there aren't objective criteria or factors that could be used to measure the quality of the show. My point is that most people aren't concerned that any of these shows were played by a drunk bad, were too short, had "unintentional disharmony" etc. Most are focused on setlists, where they were standing, whether they played "Last Kiss" or not etc.
I didn't mean to get off on an academic tangent. It just seems we always devolve into a measuring contest of who got which best show, when it reality, it's all subjective and means nothing.
And my point is that flow, synch, tempo, and other things I mentioned above are measurable and are objective to people with musical acuity. They can be measured using left brain criteria of active listening for mistakes that disrupt those elements and right brain critieria of our own break in experience of flow during the show. The left brain aspects can also be measured using independent raters, and I suspect the right brain ones can be as well.
There are multiple levels of objectivity. It's not all subjective. Some folks don't experience those other levels of objectivity for many of the reasons you mention, but that doesn't mean that no one does and that it's all subjective. That's like saying the band plays the same every night skill-wise and only the audience members differ in their experience. That's just not the case.
The band making mistakes is an objective event. It's a fact. Subjectivity is how each individual experiences (or doesn't experience) those mistakes for the reasons you mentioned. Mistakes still have an independent reality outside subjective experience, and can be heard in concert recordings. A decent portion of people (especially concert goers who are already musically inclined and/or have musical acuity) will detect these ruptures in the synch and flow of their musical experience.
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Fenway 2 was a 1000x better than philly one. It s not even close. (Those are the only two Fenway/philly shows I went to this year). I still think the main set at msg 1 was the best I ve ever seen but overall Fenway 2 takes the cake for me.
I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
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on2legs
Standing in the Jersey rain… Posts: 14,567
Fenway 2 was the best of the 5 shows I saw this tour. Can't compare it to Wrigley since I wasn't there so I'll leave that to others to hash out.
1996: Randall's Island 2 1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2 2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel 2005: Atlantic City 1 2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Newark (EV) 2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4 2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2 2011: Toronto 1 2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2015: Central Park 2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD) 2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF) 2020: MSG | Asbury Park2021: Asbury Park 2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville 2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore
I'm so lucky to have witnessed 8 spectacular shows this tour. For me it's: Philly 2 Fenway 2 Wrigley 2 MSG 1 Hampton Philly 1 Fenway 1 MSG 2
Now honestly, after my top 2 it's ridiculous to rate them. To see a show like Msg2 at the bottom of anything is Ludacris. All I know is I never left any show disappointed. Every show had so many personal and unique highlights. Met so many great people and experienced so many great cities. What a memorable year and I'm so grateful to follow a band like PJ. Being a fan allows me to see places I would never of otherwise and has given my wife and I some of the best memories of our lives.
Went to all 4 - my ranking based on my experience:
1. Fenway 2 2. Wrigley 2 3. Fenway 1 4. Wrigley 1
Cool, would love to know what factors made you rank them this way?
Some are probably tangible but most factors are probably intangible and honestly they were all pretty special shows.
Wrigley 1 was at bottom of list mostly because there didn't seem to be any flow to the songs - just seemed forced and tight. All of the stage talk and proposals just seemed to kill the energy and add chop.
Fenway 1 had great individual song moments in MOW, Yesterday's, Strangest Tribe, Feeling, etc but my seats were in right field and sound was a little in and out first night. Although a dude dressed up like 80's Larry Bird with white towel was awesome.
Wrigley 2 main set and encore just seemed to hang and the band seemed more focused. One of the best Crazy Mary's I've ever heard and then to play I've Got a Feeling after YLB was just awesome (not to mention Of the Earth).
Fenway 2 was tops mostly because the band just seemed so joyous playing - I was on field and think Ed was smiling the entire show. Bringing J Mascis out for Rockin was very cool as was him playing catch with the pit.
I went to 10 shows this spring and I think it's unfair to compare baseball stadium shows to arena shows - two different animals. NYC 1 and Miami had best main sets I saw but then suffered from the encore energy drain. I can only think the boys need a break mid-show and need to slow it down but I'd say fans are getting older and having a harder time getting energy back up after break and couple slower songs. I'd love to see them start slower maybe acoustic and finish strong or flip flop like Wilco does and end with an acoustic set.
Seems dumb ranking them and I think it's probably more with my state of mind at the time than the bands output.
"Hey, listen asshole, one more fucker throws a fuckin' quarter up here and we're outta here, I'm tellin' ya, FUCKER! What the fuck, you're blowin' it for fuckin' everybody. Hit me with a fuckin' quarter again and, fuck it, I'm outta here. We're all outta here. Fuck you, and if anyone sees someone throw fuckin' change right next to them, you have my permission to beat the fuckin' holy shit outta them."
Comments
There are multiple levels of objectivity. It's not all subjective. Some folks don't experience those other levels of objectivity for many of the reasons you mention, but that doesn't mean that no one does and that it's all subjective. That's like saying the band plays the same every night skill-wise and only the audience members differ in their experience. That's just not the case.
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I still think the main set at msg 1 was the best I ve ever seen but overall Fenway 2 takes the cake for me.
Philly 2
Fenway 2
Wrigley 2
MSG 1
Hampton
Philly 1
Fenway 1
MSG 2
Now honestly, after my top 2 it's ridiculous to rate them. To see a show like Msg2 at the bottom of anything is Ludacris. All I know is I never left any show disappointed. Every show had so many personal and unique highlights. Met so many great people and experienced so many great cities. What a memorable year and I'm so grateful to follow a band like PJ. Being a fan allows me to see places I would never of otherwise and has given my wife and I some of the best memories of our lives.
Wrigley 1 was at bottom of list mostly because there didn't seem to be any flow to the songs - just seemed forced and tight. All of the stage talk and proposals just seemed to kill the energy and add chop.
Fenway 1 had great individual song moments in MOW, Yesterday's, Strangest Tribe, Feeling, etc but my seats were in right field and sound was a little in and out first night. Although a dude dressed up like 80's Larry Bird with white towel was awesome.
Wrigley 2 main set and encore just seemed to hang and the band seemed more focused. One of the best Crazy Mary's I've ever heard and then to play I've Got a Feeling after YLB was just awesome (not to mention Of the Earth).
Fenway 2 was tops mostly because the band just seemed so joyous playing - I was on field and think Ed was smiling the entire show. Bringing J Mascis out for Rockin was very cool as was him playing catch with the pit.
I went to 10 shows this spring and I think it's unfair to compare baseball stadium shows to arena shows - two different animals. NYC 1 and Miami had best main sets I saw but then suffered from the encore energy drain. I can only think the boys need a break mid-show and need to slow it down but I'd say fans are getting older and having a harder time getting energy back up after break and couple slower songs. I'd love to see them start slower maybe acoustic and finish strong or flip flop like Wilco does and end with an acoustic set.
Seems dumb ranking them and I think it's probably more with my state of mind at the time than the bands output.