"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. " Hugh, 1. How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time? 2. What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 3. Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it. I give zero homework except to study for a test.
"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right." I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement. Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up. Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.
McG and I agree on something!!!!!!
Daaaaaaamn. I might have to rethink what I wrote.
“On further reflection, I’m a lazy mooch who only works like 20 hours a week.”
Or you an adjunct or full time professor? I guess my question to you, how many classes do you have to teach a week? Do you teach in front of a class or all online?
Full time. A 4/4 teaching load (4 courses per semester). Both online and traditional classes. I spend a fair amount of time in classrooms, but that time doesn’t compare to the time K12 teachers do.
That s really cool. I would like to teach college one day. We shall see.
and have grad students assist in grading etc.....
Honestly, what percentage of college professors do you imagine have graders?
dkdc.....
14 yrs ago I couldnt get hired at fast food. 13 1/3 yrs ago first job in sobriety started at 7.50hr. 8 yrs ago , I began my journey as a truck driver, a field I have always wanted to be in. 40k first year. 50k by yr 5. switched companies 3 yrs ago. look to crack 100k. this year....... at 50ish hrs a week.
I dropped out of HS........
Cool story. Super relevant to the thread about teachers.
oh its relevant. Had several great teachers over the years who encouraged me to work toward my potential. Was smart but bored. Then we took a vocational aptitude test in middle school I guess it was. Driving number 1. Trades number 2. You know use your hands and your brain.
wasted some 25 years in drugs and alcohol. Guess now I am living up to my potential...... Thanks to those teachers......
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. " Hugh, 1. How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time? 2. What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 3. Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it. I give zero homework except to study for a test.
"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right." I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement. Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up. Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.
McG and I agree on something!!!!!!
Daaaaaaamn. I might have to rethink what I wrote.
“On further reflection, I’m a lazy mooch who only works like 20 hours a week.”
Or you an adjunct or full time professor? I guess my question to you, how many classes do you have to teach a week? Do you teach in front of a class or all online?
Full time. A 4/4 teaching load (4 courses per semester). Both online and traditional classes. I spend a fair amount of time in classrooms, but that time doesn’t compare to the time K12 teachers do.
That s really cool. I would like to teach college one day. We shall see.
and have grad students assist in grading etc.....
Honestly, what percentage of college professors do you imagine have graders?
dkdc.....
14 yrs ago I couldnt get hired at fast food. 13 1/3 yrs ago first job in sobriety started at 7.50hr. 8 yrs ago , I began my journey as a truck driver, a field I have always wanted to be in. 40k first year. 50k by yr 5. switched companies 3 yrs ago. look to crack 100k. this year....... at 50ish hrs a week.
I dropped out of HS........
Cool story. Super relevant to the thread about teachers.
oh its relevant. Had several great teachers over the years who encouraged me to work toward my potential. Was smart but bored. Then we took a vocational aptitude test in middle school I guess it was. Driving number 1. Trades number 2. You know use your hands and your brain.
wasted some 25 years in drugs and alcohol. Guess now I am living up to my potential...... Thanks to those teachers......
"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. " Hugh, 1. How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time? 2. What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 3. Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it. I give zero homework except to study for a test.
"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right." I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement. Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up. Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.
McG and I agree on something!!!!!!
Daaaaaaamn. I might have to rethink what I wrote.
“On further reflection, I’m a lazy mooch who only works like 20 hours a week.”
Or you an adjunct or full time professor? I guess my question to you, how many classes do you have to teach a week? Do you teach in front of a class or all online?
Full time. A 4/4 teaching load (4 courses per semester). Both online and traditional classes. I spend a fair amount of time in classrooms, but that time doesn’t compare to the time K12 teachers do.
That s really cool. I would like to teach college one day. We shall see.
and have grad students assist in grading etc.....
Honestly, what percentage of college professors do you imagine have graders?
98%
So the exact same as the amount of days you work fewer than 6 hours?
I'm a college professor, so this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison, but nonetheless:
I'm on a nine-month contract. I get paid for nine months of the year. If I only worked during those nine months, I would have been fired years ago, because there simply would not be time to do all the work. I average over 40 hours of work per week....52 weeks of the year! Yes, I work fewer hours during the summer, but I'd estimate, on average, I put in about 30 hours a week during the 3 months I'm not being paid.
If I was on a 9 month contract, I would set boundaries and only work what I am getting paid to work. If I couldn’t do the work during that time, I would renegotiate my contract or find a new job. If my employer expected me to work more days than my contract stated, then I would renegotiate my contract or find a new job. I feel like teachers or teacher unions may have enabled unfair employment practices...and in my opinion, that’s where the ball is being dropped. Individuals have no leverage because everyone else is enabling unfair practices by essentially choosing to work for free outside of their contracts and making others feel obligated to do the same.
I guess I choose not to be a teacher because I refuse to work for an employer that expects me to work for free three months out of the year.
BINGO again. Teachers enable their own wage theft.
In all my years of working to contract, not once have my principals chastised me for being unprepared for class, or not posting grades on time, or not teaching bell to bell. It just doesn't happen. In an 8 hour day, I'm able to get done the essentials of the job so that kids learn. Teachers need to stop with all the arts and crafts after hours thinking they make a difference. They don't. We know there are a handful of high yield practices, and they are pretty basic and don't take hours to prep: choice, novelty, note-taking, graphic organizers, summarizing, and a couple more I can't remember right now. I do one of those every day, and it doesn't take four extra hours to come up with. Too many people working themselves to death coming up with bells and whistles that don't have any impact on outcomes.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,754
Would any people here who use the "teachers work 9 months and get paid 12" argument work 3 more months for free?
The "my taxes pay for your job" argument is funny too. If teachers get paid from taxes...and pay taxes...then they pay themselves too."
Since some people think teachers are babysitters, pay them like babysitters. What do you currently pay a babysitter per hour? $7 (hopefully more)? Per kid...about 30 kids...$210 an hour. Sounds good.
If teachers have it so good, stop hating, and be one. Like Ed says. "If you hate something. Don't. You do it too."
Great post and great to see a fresh face on the train! I hope you stick around, angry_skull !
Would any people here who use the "teachers work 9 months and get paid 12" argument work 3 more months for free?
The "my taxes pay for your job" argument is funny too. If teachers get paid from taxes...and pay taxes...then they pay themselves too."
Since some people think teachers are babysitters, pay them like babysitters. What do you currently pay a babysitter per hour? $7 (hopefully more)? Per kid...about 30 kids...$210 an hour. Sounds good.
If teachers have it so good, stop hating, and be one. Like Ed says. "If you hate something. Don't. You do it too."
actually they get paid for 9 months work which is what they work. that was the point of the OP of this thread. teachers get paid 70% of what other professionals with similar education get paid...and, wait for it, they work roughly 70% of the days of other professionals by schedule. some people make this WAY more complicated than it really is...but i'm just a hater apparently.
Actually, pjhawks, if you look at the original post it is about an article that talks about how teacher's pay has fallen. Just for the record, my friend, just for the record.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
One more thing teachers do way too much of . . . Grading. Every district Ive taught in requires one formal grade per week, one informal. That's NINE grades in the grade book per quarter. I see teachers all the time with 20-30. They grade everything, because they think if they don't grade it, kids won't do it. Again, just not true. My students do everything I put in front of them, and they appreciate all the ungraded practice so that when I announce "this one is graded" they're ready. Or teachers who won't let kids grade their own work because they cheat. Doesn't happen if you keep your eye out.
There are so many ways teachers could do a more efficient job but don't and then wonder why they're on the hamster wheel.
Very early in my career, a mentor told me about "the point of diminishing returns." There really is one. At some point, the extra effort doesn't yield extra results.
I'm not saying it's easy to figure out and I'm not blaming teachers for working hard. But I just think there needs to be some myth busting about what it takes, and teachers need to get better at setting boundaries. It is possible to work contract hours and still be an effective teacher.
"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. " Hugh, 1. How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time? 2. What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 3. Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it. I give zero homework except to study for a test.
"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right." I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement. Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up. Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.
Think of teachers as artists and their students as canvases, a pile of different materials or blocks of clay. Some of that will become masterpieces, a small percentage, auctioned at Christies, some will be shown and exhibited in trendy art galleries, some will end up in the Crate & Barrel catalog and others will remain half finished or in the dumpster. Teachers, like artists, need time off to recharge, regain their energy and creativity, to mold and create, hopefully masterpieces but what most artists end up creating, average works that look just fine to somebody sitting in the corner, hanging on their wall, adding value to their everyday. A classroom of 25 to 35, 3rd to 12th graders is hardly a cookie cutter approach for a teacher as is a room full of disparate materials and mediums are for an artist. I'd love to see anyone in here who is not a teacher spend a year in a teacher's shoes and then see whether they complain about the pay and the summer's off, etc., etc.
One more thing teachers do way too much of . . . Grading. Every district Ive taught in requires one formal grade per week, one informal. That's NINE grades in the grade book per quarter. I see teachers all the time with 20-30. They grade everything, because they think if they don't grade it, kids won't do it. Again, just not true. My students do everything I put in front of them, and they appreciate all the ungraded practice so that when I announce "this one is graded" they're ready. Or teachers who won't let kids grade their own work because they cheat. Doesn't happen if you keep your eye out.
There are so many ways teachers could do a more efficient job but don't and then wonder why they're on the hamster wheel.
Very early in my career, a mentor told me about "the point of diminishing returns." There really is one. At some point, the extra effort doesn't yield extra results.
I'm not saying it's easy to figure out and I'm not blaming teachers for working hard. But I just think there needs to be some myth busting about what it takes, and teachers need to get better at setting boundaries. It is possible to work contract hours and still be an effective teacher.
I always hated grading because it did nothing to really assess or critique a students work or help them improve it. Grades reinforce negative feeling in students who don't play the game and too often reward brown nosers. Also, in some cases anyway, the way A's hard handed out like candy is bullshit. That's too often about the teacher wanting the students to like him or her.
All this reminds me of my favorite grading story. In my third year in college in around 1970 or '71 I took a college course that I only attended a few times because I had reached a point where I was hating school, majoring in getting stoned and drunk, and watching my life go to hell. At the end of the semester, the prof told us to write on a piece of paper what we thought our grade should be and why we believe we should receive that grade. I had only attended class two or three time that semester in that course (creative writing) and done almost none of the work other than a lot of writing I did on my own and not for class. I wrote on my paper: "I need and A in this class because anything less will lower my grade point average and I am already on probation and will end up on being expelled from school and will be drafted and sent to Vietnam and I do not believe in that war and I do not want to die." I received and A and lived to tell about it.
Years later, I redeemed myself by going back to school, finished my degree in two years plus a year of education classes and served my country by teaching for five years. And in those last three years of college I only received one B+ grade, all the rest were A's. Candy. It's all bullshit.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. " Hugh, 1. How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time? 2. What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 3. Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it. I give zero homework except to study for a test.
"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right." I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement. Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up. Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.
Think of teachers as artists and their students as canvases, a pile of different materials or blocks of clay. Some of that will become masterpieces, a small percentage, auctioned at Christies, some will be shown and exhibited in trendy art galleries, some will end up in the Crate & Barrel catalog and others will remain half finished or in the dumpster. Teachers, like artists, need time off to recharge, regain their energy and creativity, to mold and create, hopefully masterpieces but what most artists end up creating, average works that look just fine to somebody sitting in the corner, hanging on their wall, adding value to their everyday. A classroom of 25 to 35, 3rd to 12th graders is hardly a cookie cutter approach for a teacher as is a room full of disparate materials and mediums are for an artist. I'd love to see anyone in here who is not a teacher spend a year in a teacher's shoes and then see whether they complain about the pay and the summer's off, etc., etc.
"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. " Hugh, 1. How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time? 2. What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 3. Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it. I give zero homework except to study for a test.
"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right." I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement. Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up. Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.
Think of teachers as artists and their students as canvases, a pile of different materials or blocks of clay. Some of that will become masterpieces, a small percentage, auctioned at Christies, some will be shown and exhibited in trendy art galleries, some will end up in the Crate & Barrel catalog and others will remain half finished or in the dumpster. Teachers, like artists, need time off to recharge, regain their energy and creativity, to mold and create, hopefully masterpieces but what most artists end up creating, average works that look just fine to somebody sitting in the corner, hanging on their wall, adding value to their everyday. A classroom of 25 to 35, 3rd to 12th graders is hardly a cookie cutter approach for a teacher as is a room full of disparate materials and mediums are for an artist. I'd love to see anyone in here who is not a teacher spend a year in a teacher's shoes and then see whether they complain about the pay and the summer's off, etc., etc.
I think we are now BFF s.
I'll bring the ice. Or maybe on your underpaid salary, the wine?
"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. " Hugh, 1. How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time? 2. What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 3. Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it. I give zero homework except to study for a test.
"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right." I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement. Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up. Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.
Think of teachers as artists and their students as canvases, a pile of different materials or blocks of clay. Some of that will become masterpieces, a small percentage, auctioned at Christies, some will be shown and exhibited in trendy art galleries, some will end up in the Crate & Barrel catalog and others will remain half finished or in the dumpster. Teachers, like artists, need time off to recharge, regain their energy and creativity, to mold and create, hopefully masterpieces but what most artists end up creating, average works that look just fine to somebody sitting in the corner, hanging on their wall, adding value to their everyday. A classroom of 25 to 35, 3rd to 12th graders is hardly a cookie cutter approach for a teacher as is a room full of disparate materials and mediums are for an artist. I'd love to see anyone in here who is not a teacher spend a year in a teacher's shoes and then see whether they complain about the pay and the summer's off, etc., etc.
I think we are now BFF s.
I'll bring the ice. Or maybe on your underpaid salary, the wine?
I m not drinking your crap ass bottle of Boone s. I ll bring the vino.
"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. " Hugh, 1. How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time? 2. What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 3. Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it. I give zero homework except to study for a test.
"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right." I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement. Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up. Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.
Think of teachers as artists and their students as canvases, a pile of different materials or blocks of clay. Some of that will become masterpieces, a small percentage, auctioned at Christies, some will be shown and exhibited in trendy art galleries, some will end up in the Crate & Barrel catalog and others will remain half finished or in the dumpster. Teachers, like artists, need time off to recharge, regain their energy and creativity, to mold and create, hopefully masterpieces but what most artists end up creating, average works that look just fine to somebody sitting in the corner, hanging on their wall, adding value to their everyday. A classroom of 25 to 35, 3rd to 12th graders is hardly a cookie cutter approach for a teacher as is a room full of disparate materials and mediums are for an artist. I'd love to see anyone in here who is not a teacher spend a year in a teacher's shoes and then see whether they complain about the pay and the summer's off, etc., etc.
I think we are now BFF s.
I'll bring the ice. Or maybe on your underpaid salary, the wine?
The good news is you can catch all the early bird specials since he's done at 2 every day.
"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. " Hugh, 1. How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time? 2. What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 3. Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it. I give zero homework except to study for a test.
"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right." I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement. Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up. Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.
Think of teachers as artists and their students as canvases, a pile of different materials or blocks of clay. Some of that will become masterpieces, a small percentage, auctioned at Christies, some will be shown and exhibited in trendy art galleries, some will end up in the Crate & Barrel catalog and others will remain half finished or in the dumpster. Teachers, like artists, need time off to recharge, regain their energy and creativity, to mold and create, hopefully masterpieces but what most artists end up creating, average works that look just fine to somebody sitting in the corner, hanging on their wall, adding value to their everyday. A classroom of 25 to 35, 3rd to 12th graders is hardly a cookie cutter approach for a teacher as is a room full of disparate materials and mediums are for an artist. I'd love to see anyone in here who is not a teacher spend a year in a teacher's shoes and then see whether they complain about the pay and the summer's off, etc., etc.
I think we are now BFF s.
I'll bring the ice. Or maybe on your underpaid salary, the wine?
The good news is you can catch all the early bird specials since he's done at 2 every day.
"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. " Hugh, 1. How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time? 2. What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 3. Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it. I give zero homework except to study for a test.
"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right." I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement. Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up. Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.
Think of teachers as artists and their students as canvases, a pile of different materials or blocks of clay. Some of that will become masterpieces, a small percentage, auctioned at Christies, some will be shown and exhibited in trendy art galleries, some will end up in the Crate & Barrel catalog and others will remain half finished or in the dumpster. Teachers, like artists, need time off to recharge, regain their energy and creativity, to mold and create, hopefully masterpieces but what most artists end up creating, average works that look just fine to somebody sitting in the corner, hanging on their wall, adding value to their everyday. A classroom of 25 to 35, 3rd to 12th graders is hardly a cookie cutter approach for a teacher as is a room full of disparate materials and mediums are for an artist. I'd love to see anyone in here who is not a teacher spend a year in a teacher's shoes and then see whether they complain about the pay and the summer's off, etc., etc.
I think we are now BFF s.
I'll bring the ice. Or maybe on your underpaid salary, the wine?
The good news is you can catch all the early bird specials since he's done at 2 every day.
"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. " Hugh, 1. How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time? 2. What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 3. Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it. I give zero homework except to study for a test.
"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right." I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement. Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up. Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.
Think of teachers as artists and their students as canvases, a pile of different materials or blocks of clay. Some of that will become masterpieces, a small percentage, auctioned at Christies, some will be shown and exhibited in trendy art galleries, some will end up in the Crate & Barrel catalog and others will remain half finished or in the dumpster. Teachers, like artists, need time off to recharge, regain their energy and creativity, to mold and create, hopefully masterpieces but what most artists end up creating, average works that look just fine to somebody sitting in the corner, hanging on their wall, adding value to their everyday. A classroom of 25 to 35, 3rd to 12th graders is hardly a cookie cutter approach for a teacher as is a room full of disparate materials and mediums are for an artist. I'd love to see anyone in here who is not a teacher spend a year in a teacher's shoes and then see whether they complain about the pay and the summer's off, etc., etc.
I think we are now BFF s.
I'll bring the ice. Or maybe on your underpaid salary, the wine?
The good news is you can catch all the early bird specials since he's done at 2 every day.
2:05. Get it right.
That’s funny, yet accurately important to how schools operate (at least in TX). Everything is bound by “minutes” that can either make or break school funding.
Why do some of you folks have such strong negative feelings for teachers? Did you have a shitty teacher when you were a kid? We're you abused by a teacher? I don't understand the hate.
hate really? discussing their schedule is hate? why do people react so irrationally when bringing up a teacher schedule and days off? what other professions do people get so damn defensive about? and this thread is proof of the defensiveness.
NOBODY obsesses about anybody else's work schedule the way they obsess about teachers. When was the last time you read a post on the AMT: "Mechanics are Never There on Sundays." "My Doctors Take Every Friday Off." "Cleaning Ladies are Never On Time." I simply just don't understand the obsession. This thread was dead for over a YEAR, and all of a sudden, it's President's Day and you have some thorn up your ass again about teachers. And another by the way -- MY SCHOOL DIVISION WAS OPEN ON PRESIDENT'S DAY.
honestly I think you have it backwards. in my experience, not once has an argument about how good teachers had it started with a non-teacher. it's always, 100%, a teacher complaining about difficult how they have it. and maybe they do. it's obviously not a universal truth; some have it horribly, some have it fabulous. most have it somewhere in between, is my guess. however, the topic of time off and pay:
Winnipeg teachers: 8 weeks off at summer 2 weeks off at christmas 1 week off at spring break (in BC they get two weeks off, but not sure about the other time periods)
my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time.
and i hear about their hardship about not being able to choose their holidays. you have more than double what I have. and you get it from year one. I have built up to 5 weeks holidays over 20 years of service. my first 5 years I had 2 paid weeks.
or how they can only go on vacation during peak times making it super expensive. for fucks sakes, "I get double or triple or quadruple your vacation time, I know, but YOU GET TO CHOOSE WHEN YOU TAKE IT". that's the argument? I'd GLADLY SWITCH WITH ANYONE THAT WANTS TO.
now, that being said, I know that those 8 weeks in summer isn't always the full 8 weeks. some go in the last week of summer break to prepare, but honestly, once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right. it still amounts to at least 80% of the summer is your own time.
and don't even ask me about the salaries of these folks. They all make a LOT more than the average canadian. I think they start off at the average canadian income. and it only increases substantially from there.
is it a stressful profession? no doubt about it. at least two of the several teachers I know have gone on stress leave at some point. I don't know how much of that is job related, mental health related, or a combination. I think I've mentioned this before, but I do know that it's GOT to suck seeing a group of asshole kids coming up, knowing you get a full 9 months with them with no escape. That's got to be shitty. But there are stressful pitfalls to any job. I wonder what my life would be like if my coworkers and/or my boss would move along after a year. could make things interesting. or incredibly unstable. who knows.
summation: canadian teachers, to my knowledge, get paid well. the stress level can be high (but isn't, necessarily). they get a lot of time off that is in fact TIME OFF.
The pay part is not true for the states. A starting teacher in Colorado Springs will make about 36k. Now if they take benefits for a family subtract 1k every month. Other taxes and pension etc, their takehome pay is about 20k. If you are a family that is actually below the poverty level. Many teachers would be below the poverty level if they calculated it differently for many years. If my school paid us less but gave full coverage in benefits so that my net pay was the same, I would have been under the poverty line until I had about 11 years of experience. My wife was diagnosed with RA at about 30, and has a pretty severe form. She also had ot be off her meds while pregnant and breastfeeding which made her take off work. So we looked into some government aide. We made about $100 too much to qualify, but didn't factor in healthcare or pension. The main reason we moved, to an area that paid teachers more.
I'm a college professor, so this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison, but nonetheless:
I'm on a nine-month contract. I get paid for nine months of the year. If I only worked during those nine months, I would have been fired years ago, because there simply would not be time to do all the work. I average over 40 hours of work per week....52 weeks of the year! Yes, I work fewer hours during the summer, but I'd estimate, on average, I put in about 30 hours a week during the 3 months I'm not being paid.
If I was on a 9 month contract, I would set boundaries and only work what I am getting paid to work. If I couldn’t do the work during that time, I would renegotiate my contract or find a new job. If my employer expected me to work more days than my contract stated, then I would renegotiate my contract or find a new job. I feel like teachers or teacher unions may have enabled unfair employment practices...and in my opinion, that’s where the ball is being dropped. Individuals have no leverage because everyone else is enabling unfair practices by essentially choosing to work for free outside of their contracts and making others feel obligated to do the same.
I guess I choose not to be a teacher because I refuse to work for an employer that expects me to work for free three months out of the year.
A lot of what you say here falls under the thread's overall theme: working conditions are often terrible for teachers, yet somehow people (including posters on this thread) think they have it good/easy.
With that said--and with the caveat/reminder that I teach at the college level, so much of what I will say might not apply to K-12 teachers--a few thoughts on your take:
1) "If I was on a 9 month contract, I would set boundaries and only work what I am getting paid to work." If a tenure-track professor were to do this, they would most likely be "non-reappointed." In other words, they'd be fired. Period.
2) "If I couldn’t do the work during that time, I would renegotiate my contract." The terms of my contract are set by the state (I work at a public university), yet the expectations for my productivity are set by disciplinary norms and my department's/college's/university's faculty. There is no meaningful way to "renegotiate [the] contract" itself and the actual work I'm asked to produce is designed to measure my fitness as a professor, NOT the extent to which I meet my contract.
3) "If my employer expected me to work more days than my contract stated, then I would renegotiate my contract or find a new job." I've already addressed the renegotiation part, so I'll address the "find a new job" part here. In many (most?--I'm not entirely sure) disciplines, this is simply not how things work. If you leave a job before receiving tenure, you're borderline unhireable. If you leave after tenure, no one will hire you, because they can't afford to hire associate professors.
For better or worse, the higher education job market operates NOTHING like other job markets, so what you're describing here is not a solution to individual's situations, but a further reminder of the systemic problems that create those situations.
Clearly, you recognize that the issue is systemic and you're certainly not wrong to point the finger--to some extent--at teachers and unions. But VERY few faculty are unionized. I was unionized as a graduate student, and we went on strike for better conditions. Now, I teach in a right-to-work state, with an extremely timid faculty who do precisely what you suggest ("enabl[e] unfair practices)."
But, and this is the crucial part, you're ignoring the simultaneous, much more significant factor: the dearth of funding. This is certainly true of almost all public higher education in the US, and I believe it's true for a lot of public K-12 districts, as well: teachers are paid what they are paid, and their working conditions are what they are largely because education is underfunded in this country. Why can't most faculty renegotiate or simply find another teaching job? Because there are no jobs. They've been cut as state higher-education budgets have plummeted.
That's why I read your post as more a recognition of the problem than anything else. You say "If I were in this situation, here's what I would do." You wouldn't do most of the things you describe. Instead, if you were in my situation, you'd be faced with the choice to deal with a broken system or to leave it entirely. Ultimately, then, when you explain why you choose not to be a teacher, you're really implying that NO ONE should be a teacher. That's not actually a solution--so how do you propose we make the job such that people want to do it?
"my kids, grades 5 and 8, get zero homework. their teachers are leaving at 3:15 when the bell rings and they ain't doing a fucking thing on their own time. " Hugh, 1. How do you know those teachers aren't doing anything on their own time? 2. What is wrong with leaving at 3:15 when they can contractually leave at that time? 3. Not too many people give homework anymore, in fact we can't even grade it because you don't know who is actually doing it. I give zero homework except to study for a test.
"once you've done it a year or two, if you don't have it down to a day or two science, you're not doing it right." I like you Hugh but this is just an ignorant statement. Good teachers are constantly planning and changing things up. Teaching isn't a science, it is an art.
not my own knowledge. first hand accounts from teachers i know.
and obviously i have zero issue with teachers leaving when their pay stops. i just hear a lot of people saying that teachers stay way past that time. maybe that's true for some. i don't know. i am not there. all i can go by is teachers i know and what they say. and 100% of them tell me the things i said.
I'm a college professor, so this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison, but nonetheless:
I'm on a nine-month contract. I get paid for nine months of the year. If I only worked during those nine months, I would have been fired years ago, because there simply would not be time to do all the work. I average over 40 hours of work per week....52 weeks of the year! Yes, I work fewer hours during the summer, but I'd estimate, on average, I put in about 30 hours a week during the 3 months I'm not being paid.
If I was on a 9 month contract, I would set boundaries and only work what I am getting paid to work. If I couldn’t do the work during that time, I would renegotiate my contract or find a new job. If my employer expected me to work more days than my contract stated, then I would renegotiate my contract or find a new job. I feel like teachers or teacher unions may have enabled unfair employment practices...and in my opinion, that’s where the ball is being dropped. Individuals have no leverage because everyone else is enabling unfair practices by essentially choosing to work for free outside of their contracts and making others feel obligated to do the same.
I guess I choose not to be a teacher because I refuse to work for an employer that expects me to work for free three months out of the year.
A lot of what you say here falls under the thread's overall theme: working conditions are often terrible for teachers, yet somehow people (including posters on this thread) think they have it good/easy.
With that said--and with the caveat/reminder that I teach at the college level, so much of what I will say might not apply to K-12 teachers--a few thoughts on your take:
1) "If I was on a 9 month contract, I would set boundaries and only work what I am getting paid to work." If a tenure-track professor were to do this, they would most likely be "non-reappointed." In other words, they'd be fired. Period.
2) "If I couldn’t do the work during that time, I would renegotiate my contract." The terms of my contract are set by the state (I work at a public university), yet the expectations for my productivity are set by disciplinary norms and my department's/college's/university's faculty. There is no meaningful way to "renegotiate [the] contract" itself and the actual work I'm asked to produce is designed to measure my fitness as a professor, NOT the extent to which I meet my contract.
3) "If my employer expected me to work more days than my contract stated, then I would renegotiate my contract or find a new job." I've already addressed the renegotiation part, so I'll address the "find a new job" part here. In many (most?--I'm not entirely sure) disciplines, this is simply not how things work. If you leave a job before receiving tenure, you're borderline unhireable. If you leave after tenure, no one will hire you, because they can't afford to hire associate professors.
For better or worse, the higher education job market operates NOTHING like other job markets, so what you're describing here is not a solution to individual's situations, but a further reminder of the systemic problems that create those situations.
Clearly, you recognize that the issue is systemic and you're certainly not wrong to point the finger--to some extent--at teachers and unions. But VERY few faculty are unionized. I was unionized as a graduate student, and we went on strike for better conditions. Now, I teach in a right-to-work state, with an extremely timid faculty who do precisely what you suggest ("enabl[e] unfair practices)."
But, and this is the crucial part, you're ignoring the simultaneous, much more significant factor: the dearth of funding. This is certainly true of almost all public higher education in the US, and I believe it's true for a lot of public K-12 districts, as well: teachers are paid what they are paid, and their working conditions are what they are largely because education is underfunded in this country. Why can't most faculty renegotiate or simply find another teaching job? Because there are no jobs. They've been cut as state higher-education budgets have plummeted.
That's why I read your post as more a recognition of the problem than anything else. You say "If I were in this situation, here's what I would do." You wouldn't do most of the things you describe. Instead, if you were in my situation, you'd be faced with the choice to deal with a broken system or to leave it entirely. Ultimately, then, when you explain why you choose not to be a teacher, you're really implying that NO ONE should be a teacher. That's not actually a solution--so how do you propose we make the job such that people want to do it?
Thank you for your reply and I do believe it is a systemic issue. I understand what you say about and agree that education is underfunded. It is going to take some major legislative action or people refusing to work in the field before changes happen (this may be coming). And I’m not saying that no one should be teachers, but rather that no one should work for free. Some people attach value in teaching and working outside of contract days through the idea that they are making a difference, which does have value. How many times have people said “it’s not about the money”...I was a counselor for years and heard that same line over and over when people complained about their pay.
The issue is when it becomes a culture of everyone thinking they are obligated to work extra hours because a few “overachieving” kiss-asses choose too. If you don’t, you’re not “pulling your weight”.
In other job markets, it is illegal to not get compensated for your work, why should teaching be any different? If all teachers decided to say “fuck it, I’m not working for free”, and didn’t, believe me, things would change. If everyone at your university refused to work outside of contract days, would they fire everyone? There are so many saying “that’s just the way it is” that I agree, it would be hard to change things...but again, that is why I refuse to work in such conditions. It’s flat out shitty that teachers feel they “have” to work days they don’t get paid for. There needs to be some legal fair labor accountability on administration or something to dissuade people from working outside of contracts or go to a year round schedule/contract to lower the curriculum burden (which some are doing). The contracts should at least be extended to cover actual work days if the job truly cannot be done on a 9 month schedule.
there are definite issues with our system as well. the same teachers i am friends with tell me that the programs are so underfunded that they go buy school supplies with money out of their own pockets because the school simply doesn't provide enough. that's disgusting.
but where are people getting this "working 9 months but getting paid for 12" stuff? where i live the teachers get paid for 9 months. then they have to apply for unemployment benefits every year summer. and they usually don't get them until they're back at school in the fall. or at the very least, 3/4 of the way through the summer.
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In all my years of working to contract, not once have my principals chastised me for being unprepared for class, or not posting grades on time, or not teaching bell to bell. It just doesn't happen. In an 8 hour day, I'm able to get done the essentials of the job so that kids learn. Teachers need to stop with all the arts and crafts after hours thinking they make a difference. They don't. We know there are a handful of high yield practices, and they are pretty basic and don't take hours to prep: choice, novelty, note-taking, graphic organizers, summarizing, and a couple more I can't remember right now. I do one of those every day, and it doesn't take four extra hours to come up with. Too many people working themselves to death coming up with bells and whistles that don't have any impact on outcomes.
Actually, pjhawks, if you look at the original post it is about an article that talks about how teacher's pay has fallen. Just for the record, my friend, just for the record.
There are so many ways teachers could do a more efficient job but don't and then wonder why they're on the hamster wheel.
Very early in my career, a mentor told me about "the point of diminishing returns." There really is one. At some point, the extra effort doesn't yield extra results.
I'm not saying it's easy to figure out and I'm not blaming teachers for working hard. But I just think there needs to be some myth busting about what it takes, and teachers need to get better at setting boundaries. It is possible to work contract hours and still be an effective teacher.
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Many teachers would be below the poverty level if they calculated it differently for many years. If my school paid us less but gave full coverage in benefits so that my net pay was the same, I would have been under the poverty line until I had about 11 years of experience.
My wife was diagnosed with RA at about 30, and has a pretty severe form. She also had ot be off her meds while pregnant and breastfeeding which made her take off work. So we looked into some government aide. We made about $100 too much to qualify, but didn't factor in healthcare or pension.
The main reason we moved, to an area that paid teachers more.
With that said--and with the caveat/reminder that I teach at the college level, so much of what I will say might not apply to K-12 teachers--a few thoughts on your take:
1) "If I was on a 9 month contract, I would set boundaries and only work what I am getting paid to work." If a tenure-track professor were to do this, they would most likely be "non-reappointed." In other words, they'd be fired. Period.
2) "If I couldn’t do the work during that time, I would renegotiate my contract." The terms of my contract are set by the state (I work at a public university), yet the expectations for my productivity are set by disciplinary norms and my department's/college's/university's faculty. There is no meaningful way to "renegotiate [the] contract" itself and the actual work I'm asked to produce is designed to measure my fitness as a professor, NOT the extent to which I meet my contract.
3) "If my employer expected me to work more days than my contract stated, then I would renegotiate my contract or find a new job." I've already addressed the renegotiation part, so I'll address the "find a new job" part here. In many (most?--I'm not entirely sure) disciplines, this is simply not how things work. If you leave a job before receiving tenure, you're borderline unhireable. If you leave after tenure, no one will hire you, because they can't afford to hire associate professors.
For better or worse, the higher education job market operates NOTHING like other job markets, so what you're describing here is not a solution to individual's situations, but a further reminder of the systemic problems that create those situations.
Clearly, you recognize that the issue is systemic and you're certainly not wrong to point the finger--to some extent--at teachers and unions. But VERY few faculty are unionized. I was unionized as a graduate student, and we went on strike for better conditions. Now, I teach in a right-to-work state, with an extremely timid faculty who do precisely what you suggest ("enabl[e] unfair practices)."
But, and this is the crucial part, you're ignoring the simultaneous, much more significant factor: the dearth of funding. This is certainly true of almost all public higher education in the US, and I believe it's true for a lot of public K-12 districts, as well: teachers are paid what they are paid, and their working conditions are what they are largely because education is underfunded in this country. Why can't most faculty renegotiate or simply find another teaching job? Because there are no jobs. They've been cut as state higher-education budgets have plummeted.
That's why I read your post as more a recognition of the problem than anything else. You say "If I were in this situation, here's what I would do." You wouldn't do most of the things you describe. Instead, if you were in my situation, you'd be faced with the choice to deal with a broken system or to leave it entirely. Ultimately, then, when you explain why you choose not to be a teacher, you're really implying that NO ONE should be a teacher. That's not actually a solution--so how do you propose we make the job such that people want to do it?
and obviously i have zero issue with teachers leaving when their pay stops. i just hear a lot of people saying that teachers stay way past that time. maybe that's true for some. i don't know. i am not there. all i can go by is teachers i know and what they say. and 100% of them tell me the things i said.
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Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
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The contracts should at least be extended to cover actual work days if the job truly cannot be done on a 9 month schedule.
but where are people getting this "working 9 months but getting paid for 12" stuff? where i live the teachers get paid for 9 months. then they have to apply for unemployment benefits every year summer. and they usually don't get them until they're back at school in the fall. or at the very least, 3/4 of the way through the summer.
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