The Fallacy Of Capitalism

The biggest unicorn and rainbows myth is this notion that current day capitalism is good for people. An economic system that does not factor the single most important line item in a societal ledger: SUSTAINABILITY

This undeniable truth will eventually be learned but it will be too late for many.

*******************************************************

http://www.forbes.com/sites/drewhansen/2016/02/09/unless-it-changes-capitalism-will-starve-humanity-by-2050/#1cf3ed734a36

Capitalism has generated massive wealth for some, but it’s devastated the planet and has failed to improve human well-being at scale.

• Species are going extinct at a rate 1,000 times faster than that of the natural rate over the previous 65 million years (see Center for Health and the Global Environment at Harvard Medical School).
• Since 2000, 6 million hectares of primary forest have been lost each year. That’s 14,826,322 acres, or just less than the entire state of West Virginia (see the 2010 assessment by the Food and Agricultural Organization of the UN).
• Even in the U.S., 15% of the population lives below the poverty line. For children under the age of 18, that number increases to 20% (see U.S. Census).
• The world’s population is expected to reach 10 billion by 2050 (see United Nations’ projections)

How do we expect to feed that many people while we exhaust the resources that remain?

Human activities are behind the extinction crisis. Commercial agriculture, timber extraction, and infrastructure development are causing habitat loss and our reliance on fossil fuels is a major contributor to climate change. Public corporations are responding to consumer demand and pressure from Wall Street. Professors Christopher Wright and Daniel Nyberg published Climate Change, Capitalism and Corporations last fall, arguing that businesses are locked in a cycle of exploiting the world’s resources in ever more creative ways.

“Our book shows how large corporations are able to continue engaging in increasingly environmentally exploitative behaviour by obscuring the link between endless economic growth and worsening environmental destruction,” they wrote.

Yale sociologist Justin Farrell studied 20 years of corporate funding and found that “corporations have used their wealth to amplify contrarian views [of climate change] and create an impression of greater scientific uncertainty than actually exists.” Corporate capitalism is committed to the relentless pursuit of growth, even if it ravages the planet and threatens human health. We need to build a new system: one that will balance economic growth with sustainability and human flourishing. A new generation of companies are showing the way forward. They’re infusing capitalism with fresh ideas, specifically in regards to employee ownership and agile management.

Fund managers at global financial institutions own the majority (70%) of the public stock exchange. These absent owners have no stake in the communities in which the companies operate. Furthermore, management-controlled equity is concentrated in the hands of a select few: the CEO and other senior executives.

On the other hand, startups have been willing to distribute equity to employees. Sometimes such equity distribution is done to make up for less than competitive salaries, but more often it’s offered as a financial incentive to motivate employees toward building a successful company.

According to The Economist, today’s startups are keen to incentivize via shared ownership:

The central difference lies in ownership: whereas nobody is sure who owns public companies, startups go to great lengths to define who owns what. Early in a company’s life, the founders and first recruits own a majority stake—and they incentivise people with ownership stakes or performance-related rewards. That has always been true for startups, but today the rights and responsibilities are meticulously defined in contracts drawn up by lawyers. This aligns interests and creates a culture of hard work and camaraderie. Because they are private rather than public, they measure how they are doing using performance indicators (such as how many products they have produced) rather than elaborate accounting standards.

This trend hearkens back to cooperatives where employees collectively owned the enterprise and participated in management decisions through their voting rights. Mondragon is the oft-cited example of a successful, modern worker cooperative. Mondragon’s broad-based employee ownership is not the same as an Employee Stock Ownership Plan. With ownership comes a say – control – over the business. Their workers elect management, and management is responsible to the employees.
REI is a consumer cooperative that drew attention this past year when it opted out of Black Friday sales, encouraging its employees and customers to spend the day outside instead of shopping.

I suspect that the most successful companies under this emerging form of capitalism will have less concentrated, more egalitarian ownership structures. They will benefit not only financially but also communally.

Joint Ownership Will Lead To Collaborative Management

The hierarchical organization of modern corporations will give way to networks or communities that make collaboration paramount. Many options for more fluid, agile management structures could take hold.

For instance, newer companies are experimenting with alternative management models that seek to empower employees more than a traditional hierarchy typically does. Of these newer approaches, holacracy is the most widely known. It promises to bring structure and discipline to a peer-to-peer workplace.

Holacracy “is a new way of running an organization that removes power from a management hierarchy and distributes it across clear roles, which can then be executed autonomously, without a micromanaging boss.”

Companies like Zappos and Medium are in varying stages of implementing the management system.

Valve Software in Seattle goes even further, allowing employees to select which projects they want to work on. Employees then move their desks to the most conducive office area for collaborating with the project team.
Recommended by Forbes

These are small steps toward a system that values the employee more than what the employee can produce. By giving employees a greater say in decision-making, corporations will make choices that ensure the future of the planet and its inhabitants.

Comments

  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    RIght up there with the fallacy of democracy that allows this shit to happen...
    polaris_x said:


    This undeniable truth will eventually be learned but it will be too late for many.

    I'm guessing total collapse of our marine food chains will learn 'em.
  • Scary for sure.

    Scholars with nothing to gain have been trying to help us baboons see the downward spiral... but we are all too narcissistic to care enough.

    The human species is in trouble. I think we've crossed multiple critical thresholds without the means or will to reverse our direction.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576

    Scary for sure.

    Scholars with nothing to gain have been trying to help us baboons see the downward spiral... but we are all too narcissistic to care enough.

    The human species is in trouble. I think we've crossed multiple critical thresholds without the means or will to reverse our direction.

    I think you are right, and some of those critical thresholds are spiritual...violence, greed, and complacency have set our feet in stone as a species.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038

    RIght up there with the fallacy of democracy that allows this shit to happen...

    polaris_x said:


    This undeniable truth will eventually be learned but it will be too late for many.

    I'm guessing total collapse of our marine food chains will learn 'em.
    Thank you for pointing this out, Drowned Out! I'm more and more convinced that collapsing ocean ecosystems are this planet's number one catastrophe in the making- even more so than climate change/global warming.

    Capitalism is based on human greed and that avarice is based on over-consumption of natural resources which will continue to drive an unprecedented number of rapid plant and animal extinctions. We humans fuss over the wall decorations while the foundation under us continues to collapse.

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    We are mere animals and will act as such. The planet will though survive.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • it won't change while the wealthy are in power. but the system is set up so ONLY the wealthy can be in power. so we await our next mass extinction event. it will either be natural or human-caused, but it will happen. and probably sooner rather than later. I just hope it's quick.

    and not zombies.
    new album "Cigarettes" out Spring 2025!

    www.headstonesband.com




  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    callen said:

    We are mere animals and will act as such. The planet will though survive.

    Probably, Callen, although to some extent, even that is within question (a dead planet is actually a possible outcome of human activity). But I must also point out that the opinion that once the human race has wiped itself out that the planet will eventually resume it's business is an anthropocentric viewpoint. What about the rest of life? I believe a good argument can be made that all life has intrinsic value and that when we ignore the basic laws of ecology, we destroy other life before it's time and outside the normal cycles of life and death. Plus, if we take ourselves out we will also take out other incredibly intelligent species, particularly cetaceans. Why do we think we have the right to do that? Because of anthropocentrism rather than biocentrism, which are important concepts that we would do understand and pass on to others.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 29,538
    None of the debates even sniffed at this mess we as humans have created , Don't worry though Trumpeter said he will fix all of our problems we will be sick of how many issues he fixes in the 1st quarter of his presidency...
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,951
    This is why that American psychotic fear of the word socialism vexed me so. It's just bizarre that so many Americans don't seem to understand any of this. The level of ignorance when it comes to this topic is almost blinding.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    brianlux said:

    callen said:

    We are mere animals and will act as such. The planet will though survive.

    Probably, Callen, although to some extent, even that is within question (a dead planet is actually a possible outcome of human activity). But I must also point out that the opinion that once the human race has wiped itself out that the planet will eventually resume it's business is an anthropocentric viewpoint. What about the rest of life? I believe a good argument can be made that all life has intrinsic value and that when we ignore the basic laws of ecology, we destroy other life before it's time and outside the normal cycles of life and death. Plus, if we take ourselves out we will also take out other incredibly intelligent species, particularly cetaceans. Why do we think we have the right to do that? Because of anthropocentrism rather than biocentrism, which are important concepts that we would do understand and pass on to others.
    Brian feel we are just another organism and our place is no different than a strong virus or other apex predator. We are evolution. Our species just came out on top. I feel little guilt as I realize that other furry cuddly animals would eat me if they could. I do have empathy and I love pointing out the hypocrisy of humans, Religions, gods, being special.

    But in the end all things work out as they will. Acknowledge there are so many beautiful creatures that have evolved over millions of years. Marvel at birds that come to visit during the winter. Just fascinating. So a shame one species ending their existence so quickly. They will though be back.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    PJ_Soul said:

    This is why that American psychotic fear of the word socialism vexed me so. It's just bizarre that so many Americans don't seem to understand any of this. The level of ignorance when it comes to this topic is almost blinding.

    Its hate, fear instincts.

    And keep in mind, many Americans don't have this position.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 15,944
    edited February 2016
    callen said:

    brianlux said:

    callen said:

    We are mere animals and will act as such. The planet will though survive.

    Probably, Callen, although to some extent, even that is within question (a dead planet is actually a possible outcome of human activity). But I must also point out that the opinion that once the human race has wiped itself out that the planet will eventually resume it's business is an anthropocentric viewpoint. What about the rest of life? I believe a good argument can be made that all life has intrinsic value and that when we ignore the basic laws of ecology, we destroy other life before it's time and outside the normal cycles of life and death. Plus, if we take ourselves out we will also take out other incredibly intelligent species, particularly cetaceans. Why do we think we have the right to do that? Because of anthropocentrism rather than biocentrism, which are important concepts that we would do understand and pass on to others.
    Brian feel we are just another organism and our place is no different than a strong virus or other apex predator. We are evolution. Our species just came out on top. I feel little guilt as I realize that other furry cuddly animals would eat me if they could. I do have empathy and I love pointing out the hypocrisy of humans, Religions, gods, being special.

    But in the end all things work out as they will. Acknowledge there are so many beautiful creatures that have evolved over millions of years. Marvel at birds that come to visit during the winter. Just fascinating. So a shame one species ending their existence so quickly. They will though be back.
    Does it all even matter if we are just a collection of cells? Is the universe better or worse off if it is full of nuclear waste or lush tropical rainforests? Certainly we humans like our existance but does it really matter at the end of the day?

    Not trying to make a depressing point.

    And if it does matter, why?
    Post edited by bootlegger10 on
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038

    callen said:

    brianlux said:

    callen said:

    We are mere animals and will act as such. The planet will though survive.

    Probably, Callen, although to some extent, even that is within question (a dead planet is actually a possible outcome of human activity). But I must also point out that the opinion that once the human race has wiped itself out that the planet will eventually resume it's business is an anthropocentric viewpoint. What about the rest of life? I believe a good argument can be made that all life has intrinsic value and that when we ignore the basic laws of ecology, we destroy other life before it's time and outside the normal cycles of life and death. Plus, if we take ourselves out we will also take out other incredibly intelligent species, particularly cetaceans. Why do we think we have the right to do that? Because of anthropocentrism rather than biocentrism, which are important concepts that we would do understand and pass on to others.
    Brian feel we are just another organism and our place is no different than a strong virus or other apex predator. We are evolution. Our species just came out on top. I feel little guilt as I realize that other furry cuddly animals would eat me if they could. I do have empathy and I love pointing out the hypocrisy of humans, Religions, gods, being special.

    But in the end all things work out as they will. Acknowledge there are so many beautiful creatures that have evolved over millions of years. Marvel at birds that come to visit during the winter. Just fascinating. So a shame one species ending their existence so quickly. They will though be back.
    Does it all even matter if we are just a collection of cells? Is the universe better or worse off if it is full of nuclear waste or lush tropical rainforests? Certainly we humans like our existance but does it really matter at the end of the day?

    Not trying to make a depressing point.

    And if it does matter, why?
    Interesting questions but I'm a bit unclear what you are asking so let's try one at a time:
    Does it all even matter if we are just a collection of cells?
    If it matters that we live at all then, yes because everything living is a collection of cells.

    Is the universe better or worse off if it is full of nuclear waste or lush tropical rainforests?
    As far as I know, the universe cannot be either one of those. And it were possible to be one or the other, the answer would depend on who's perspective you mean. To an atom bomb, a universe full of radiation would be like a life-time pass to an exotic island but to a tree frog, a bad trip in hell. And visa verse, in some fashion.

    Certainly we humans like our existence but does it really matter at the end of the day?
    Again, to whom? In a lyric, Grace Slick once said, "Doesn't mean shit to a tree." So to a tree, probably doesn't mean shit if we are or aren't. We might only mean something to other people (even our dogs and cats would revert to their former human-free state) but don't most of us share a lot of that interrelated meaning and intimacy?
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 15,944
    edited February 2016
    brianlux said:

    callen said:

    brianlux said:

    callen said:

    We are mere animals and will act as such. The planet will though survive.

    Probably, Callen, although to some extent, even that is within question (a dead planet is actually a possible outcome of human activity). But I must also point out that the opinion that once the human race has wiped itself out that the planet will eventually resume it's business is an anthropocentric viewpoint. What about the rest of life? I believe a good argument can be made that all life has intrinsic value and that when we ignore the basic laws of ecology, we destroy other life before it's time and outside the normal cycles of life and death. Plus, if we take ourselves out we will also take out other incredibly intelligent species, particularly cetaceans. Why do we think we have the right to do that? Because of anthropocentrism rather than biocentrism, which are important concepts that we would do understand and pass on to others.
    Brian feel we are just another organism and our place is no different than a strong virus or other apex predator. We are evolution. Our species just came out on top. I feel little guilt as I realize that other furry cuddly animals would eat me if they could. I do have empathy and I love pointing out the hypocrisy of humans, Religions, gods, being special.

    But in the end all things work out as they will. Acknowledge there are so many beautiful creatures that have evolved over millions of years. Marvel at birds that come to visit during the winter. Just fascinating. So a shame one species ending their existence so quickly. They will though be back.
    Does it all even matter if we are just a collection of cells? Is the universe better or worse off if it is full of nuclear waste or lush tropical rainforests? Certainly we humans like our existance but does it really matter at the end of the day?

    Not trying to make a depressing point.

    And if it does matter, why?
    Interesting questions but I'm a bit unclear what you are asking so let's try one at a time:
    Does it all even matter if we are just a collection of cells?
    If it matters that we live at all then, yes because everything living is a collection of cells.

    Is the universe better or worse off if it is full of nuclear waste or lush tropical rainforests?
    As far as I know, the universe cannot be either one of those. And it were possible to be one or the other, the answer would depend on who's perspective you mean. To an atom bomb, a universe full of radiation would be like a life-time pass to an exotic island but to a tree frog, a bad trip in hell. And visa verse, in some fashion.

    Certainly we humans like our existence but does it really matter at the end of the day?
    Again, to whom? In a lyric, Grace Slick once said, "Doesn't mean shit to a tree." So to a tree, probably doesn't mean shit if we are or aren't. We might only mean something to other people (even our dogs and cats would revert to their former human-free state) but don't most of us share a lot of that interrelated meaning and intimacy?
    Basically where I'm coming from is people are really passionate about the environment, or animals, or making sure the human race is around thousands of years to come. That all makes complete sense if we focus on the here and now. But...how can we judge if the earth is any better off in a world full of greenhouse gases with flooded oceans and no humanity left, versus an earth with no greenhouse gas problems, clean rivers, and all species of life flourishing? There are plenty of planets without life. Is trashing the earth and the extinction of human life a "bad" thing, or is it just part of the natural process of things.

    Some of my thinking comes down to God created earth versus an evolutionary/big-bang creation of earth. If we are all here by chance, then whether we trash or don't trash the earth is really not good or bad in the sense we are behaving just like the early atoms coming out of the big bang and evolving with chance and no significant purpose.

    I don't know if I'm making any sense. I just hear people say we really need to protect the environment and really at the end of the day it means protect the environment to sustain human life because at the end of the day looking at the billions of years of the earth's existence is there a "good or bad" environment, or does the earth just exist in whatever state it exists in? I'm not saying this as a reason not to protect the environmental, but more for a theoretical discussion. If a tree falls in a forest but know one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? If humans don't exist on earth, is there an environment to classify as good or bad?
    Post edited by bootlegger10 on
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    I know I used the word Sustainability but this is not solely about the planet and our environment

    it's about our economic system, our food system, everything ... if we have $10 left to our name - are we gonna blow it all on a burger with fries? ... it's about industries that we continue to subsidize and prop up in the name of 'jobs' when in reality all it is doing is making a small percentage of the population fat cats ...

    the current economic system is designed to favour a few based on short term exploitation of resources ... it is not meant for long term sustainability ... it's why eventually big oil will fail and all these other industries that seek to exploit ...
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038

    brianlux said:

    callen said:

    brianlux said:

    callen said:

    We are mere animals and will act as such. The planet will though survive.

    Probably, Callen, although to some extent, even that is within question (a dead planet is actually a possible outcome of human activity). But I must also point out that the opinion that once the human race has wiped itself out that the planet will eventually resume it's business is an anthropocentric viewpoint. What about the rest of life? I believe a good argument can be made that all life has intrinsic value and that when we ignore the basic laws of ecology, we destroy other life before it's time and outside the normal cycles of life and death. Plus, if we take ourselves out we will also take out other incredibly intelligent species, particularly cetaceans. Why do we think we have the right to do that? Because of anthropocentrism rather than biocentrism, which are important concepts that we would do understand and pass on to others.
    Brian feel we are just another organism and our place is no different than a strong virus or other apex predator. We are evolution. Our species just came out on top. I feel little guilt as I realize that other furry cuddly animals would eat me if they could. I do have empathy and I love pointing out the hypocrisy of humans, Religions, gods, being special.

    But in the end all things work out as they will. Acknowledge there are so many beautiful creatures that have evolved over millions of years. Marvel at birds that come to visit during the winter. Just fascinating. So a shame one species ending their existence so quickly. They will though be back.
    Does it all even matter if we are just a collection of cells? Is the universe better or worse off if it is full of nuclear waste or lush tropical rainforests? Certainly we humans like our existance but does it really matter at the end of the day?

    Not trying to make a depressing point.

    And if it does matter, why?
    Interesting questions but I'm a bit unclear what you are asking so let's try one at a time:
    Does it all even matter if we are just a collection of cells?
    If it matters that we live at all then, yes because everything living is a collection of cells.

    Is the universe better or worse off if it is full of nuclear waste or lush tropical rainforests?
    As far as I know, the universe cannot be either one of those. And it were possible to be one or the other, the answer would depend on who's perspective you mean. To an atom bomb, a universe full of radiation would be like a life-time pass to an exotic island but to a tree frog, a bad trip in hell. And visa verse, in some fashion.

    Certainly we humans like our existence but does it really matter at the end of the day?
    Again, to whom? In a lyric, Grace Slick once said, "Doesn't mean shit to a tree." So to a tree, probably doesn't mean shit if we are or aren't. We might only mean something to other people (even our dogs and cats would revert to their former human-free state) but don't most of us share a lot of that interrelated meaning and intimacy?
    Basically where I'm coming from is people are really passionate about the environment, or animals, or making sure the human race is around thousands of years to come. That all makes complete sense if we focus on the here and now. But...how can we judge if the earth is any better off in a world full of greenhouse gases with flooded oceans and no humanity left, versus an earth with no greenhouse gas problems, clean rivers, and all species of life flourishing? There are plenty of planets without life. Is trashing the earth and the extinction of human life a "bad" thing, or is it just part of the natural process of things.

    Some of my thinking comes down to God created earth versus an evolutionary/big-bang creation of earth. If we are all here by chance, then whether we trash or don't trash the earth is really not good or bad in the sense we are behaving just like the early atoms coming out of the big bang and evolving with chance and no significant purpose.

    I don't know if I'm making any sense. I just hear people say we really need to protect the environment and really at the end of the day it means protect the environment to sustain human life because at the end of the day looking at the billions of years of the earth's existence is there a "good or bad" environment, or does the earth just exist in whatever state it exists in? I'm not saying this as a reason not to protect the environmental, but more for a theoretical discussion. If a tree falls in a forest but know one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? If humans don't exist on earth, is there an environment to classify as good or bad?
    There are anthropocentric environmentalists and biocentric environmentalists. The former care mainly about the continued existence of the human race. The later give equal weight to all life and understand the inter-contentedness of all species and therefore care about the continuation of life in general. We are the only species on this planet jeopardizing the well being of all the other species. I don't wee what gives us the right to do that. But I'm also biocentric.
    polaris_x said:

    I know I used the word Sustainability but this is not solely about the planet and our environment

    it's about our economic system, our food system, everything ... if we have $10 left to our name - are we gonna blow it all on a burger with fries? ... it's about industries that we continue to subsidize and prop up in the name of 'jobs' when in reality all it is doing is making a small percentage of the population fat cats ...

    the current economic system is designed to favour a few based on short term exploitation of resources ... it is not meant for long term sustainability ... it's why eventually big oil will fail and all these other industries that seek to exploit ...

    Well said, polaris_x
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    Love these types of discussions.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 15,944
    edited February 2016
    I didn't know about the different types of environmentalists. Those would make sense. I would hope we can make decisions to protect all species.

    I agree that we are the only species jeopardizing all other species. Certainly on a micro level you can have some species bring havoc when introduced to a new part of the planet (Asian carp for example).
  • polaris_x said:

    I know I used the word Sustainability but this is not solely about the planet and our environment

    it's about our economic system, our food system, everything ... if we have $10 left to our name - are we gonna blow it all on a burger with fries? ... it's about industries that we continue to subsidize and prop up in the name of 'jobs' when in reality all it is doing is making a small percentage of the population fat cats ...

    the current economic system is designed to favour a few based on short term exploitation of resources ... it is not meant for long term sustainability ... it's why eventually big oil will fail and all these other industries that seek to exploit ...

    Big oil may fail much like IBM crashed and took a long time to recover if someone develops a more economically viable fuel source and they don't prepare or adjust. Because, you know...that's how capitalism works...competition and free market breed innovation bc a buck can be made and new fat cats can be made. Think Apple, Mark Cuban, etc. those were fat cats that didn't exist 50 years ago. Did the big government conspiracy stop them from emerging due to the very things you are moaning about. Would socialism or communism do the same?
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    edited February 2016

    polaris_x said:

    I know I used the word Sustainability but this is not solely about the planet and our environment

    it's about our economic system, our food system, everything ... if we have $10 left to our name - are we gonna blow it all on a burger with fries? ... it's about industries that we continue to subsidize and prop up in the name of 'jobs' when in reality all it is doing is making a small percentage of the population fat cats ...

    the current economic system is designed to favour a few based on short term exploitation of resources ... it is not meant for long term sustainability ... it's why eventually big oil will fail and all these other industries that seek to exploit ...

    Big oil may fail much like IBM crashed and took a long time to recover if someone develops a more economically viable fuel source and they don't prepare or adjust. Because, you know...that's how capitalism works...competition and free market breed innovation bc a buck can be made and new fat cats can be made. Think Apple, Mark Cuban, etc. those were fat cats that didn't exist 50 years ago. Did the big government conspiracy stop them from emerging due to the very things you are moaning about. Would socialism or communism do the same?
    The problem is that capitalism, though it does often promote innovation, always focuses on more and bigger which eventually lead to exhaustion of resources and the need for find a new more and bigger. Rarely does it consider durability, conservation and sustainability. Because capitalism too often excludes those factors, it is self limiting and eventually self annihilating.

    If we don't strive to lessen our impact and lower our consumption and population we will limit and annihilate ourselves. I really do believe that will be the end result of capitalism.
    Post edited by brianlux on
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    brianlux said:

    polaris_x said:

    I know I used the word Sustainability but this is not solely about the planet and our environment

    it's about our economic system, our food system, everything ... if we have $10 left to our name - are we gonna blow it all on a burger with fries? ... it's about industries that we continue to subsidize and prop up in the name of 'jobs' when in reality all it is doing is making a small percentage of the population fat cats ...

    the current economic system is designed to favour a few based on short term exploitation of resources ... it is not meant for long term sustainability ... it's why eventually big oil will fail and all these other industries that seek to exploit ...

    Big oil may fail much like IBM crashed and took a long time to recover if someone develops a more economically viable fuel source and they don't prepare or adjust. Because, you know...that's how capitalism works...competition and free market breed innovation bc a buck can be made and new fat cats can be made. Think Apple, Mark Cuban, etc. those were fat cats that didn't exist 50 years ago. Did the big government conspiracy stop them from emerging due to the very things you are moaning about. Would socialism or communism do the same?
    The problem is that capitalism, though it does often promote innovation, always focuses on more and bigger which eventually lead to exhaustion of resources and the need for find a new more and bigger. Rarely does it consider durability, conservation and sustainability. Because capitalism too often excludes those factors, it is self limiting and eventually self annihilating.

    If we don't strive to lessen our impact and lower our consumption and population we will limit and annihilate ourselves. I really do believe that will be the end result of capitalism.
    Not to mention the legions that are crushed under the burden of other people's progress.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    rgambs said:

    brianlux said:

    polaris_x said:

    I know I used the word Sustainability but this is not solely about the planet and our environment

    it's about our economic system, our food system, everything ... if we have $10 left to our name - are we gonna blow it all on a burger with fries? ... it's about industries that we continue to subsidize and prop up in the name of 'jobs' when in reality all it is doing is making a small percentage of the population fat cats ...

    the current economic system is designed to favour a few based on short term exploitation of resources ... it is not meant for long term sustainability ... it's why eventually big oil will fail and all these other industries that seek to exploit ...

    Big oil may fail much like IBM crashed and took a long time to recover if someone develops a more economically viable fuel source and they don't prepare or adjust. Because, you know...that's how capitalism works...competition and free market breed innovation bc a buck can be made and new fat cats can be made. Think Apple, Mark Cuban, etc. those were fat cats that didn't exist 50 years ago. Did the big government conspiracy stop them from emerging due to the very things you are moaning about. Would socialism or communism do the same?
    The problem is that capitalism, though it does often promote innovation, always focuses on more and bigger which eventually lead to exhaustion of resources and the need for find a new more and bigger. Rarely does it consider durability, conservation and sustainability. Because capitalism too often excludes those factors, it is self limiting and eventually self annihilating.

    If we don't strive to lessen our impact and lower our consumption and population we will limit and annihilate ourselves. I really do believe that will be the end result of capitalism.
    Not to mention the legions that are crushed under the burden of other people's progress.
    Absolutely. Capitalism requires human fodder to keep it's inexhaustible hunger staved off-- which never really happens. It's bad news and a painful life for the poor, especially in third world countries. Yes, there are generous capitalists but looking at it as a whole system, it endlessly chews up and spits out both human lives and non-renewable resources. We could change that!
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • The looming threat to big oil is the last drop of oil.

    My money says they are likely the best sources for when that drop is dropped. My money says they are at a minimum investigating alternative sources for fuel... and likely would tap wells dry before revealing their findings.

    I could be wrong though. They might just be harvesting what they can and as fast as they can- sucking whatever profit they might before the profits are no longer there for scarcity.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038

    The looming threat to big oil is the last drop of oil.

    My money says they are likely the best sources for when that drop is dropped. My money says they are at a minimum investigating alternative sources for fuel... and likely would tap wells dry before revealing their findings.

    I could be wrong though. They might just be harvesting what they can and as fast as they can- sucking whatever profit they might before the profits are no longer there for scarcity.

    Very possible scenario, 30B.

    Another is the peak oil theory. I haven't seen as much on that as I used to (and we know it's not a theory, it's fact) that eventually oil has to peak, then fall. If Canada is willing to give up a million square miles (or whatever monstrous piece of wilderness) to tar sand, then you know the pickin's getting thin.

    One peak oil scenario proposes that oil has been a relatively cheap, easily captured energy source for 100+ years and no one has yet found anything to match that kind of energy output per work needed to extract it (there's a formula for the scale of work/energy giving a value for least to most energy produced per work unit. I can't remember it right now). Something like solar, they say, cannot replace oil because it would take an adequate amount of that cheap energy to make enough solar to replace the oil and coal and when cheap oil runs low, demand will not be met for production of solar cells. They say even adding wind and other technologies will not work for the same reason. It's all in the formula and it makes sense. I wish I could find that in my brain. In any case, these theorists say we will not have the same high level of energy available in the future. That, if it happens that way, will have a big affect on everything.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    brianlux said:

    The looming threat to big oil is the last drop of oil.

    My money says they are likely the best sources for when that drop is dropped. My money says they are at a minimum investigating alternative sources for fuel... and likely would tap wells dry before revealing their findings.

    I could be wrong though. They might just be harvesting what they can and as fast as they can- sucking whatever profit they might before the profits are no longer there for scarcity.

    Very possible scenario, 30B.

    Another is the peak oil theory. I haven't seen as much on that as I used to (and we know it's not a theory, it's fact) that eventually oil has to peak, then fall. If Canada is willing to give up a million square miles (or whatever monstrous piece of wilderness) to tar sand, then you know the pickin's getting thin.

    One peak oil scenario proposes that oil has been a relatively cheap, easily captured energy source for 100+ years and no one has yet found anything to match that kind of energy output per work needed to extract it (there's a formula for the scale of work/energy giving a value for least to most energy produced per work unit. I can't remember it right now). Something like solar, they say, cannot replace oil because it would take an adequate amount of that cheap energy to make enough solar to replace the oil and coal and when cheap oil runs low, demand will not be met for production of solar cells. They say even adding wind and other technologies will not work for the same reason. It's all in the formula and it makes sense. I wish I could find that in my brain. In any case, these theorists say we will not have the same high level of energy available in the future. That, if it happens that way, will have a big affect on everything.
    Yep, we will burn up all our fossil fuels for combustion purposes and we will be screwed when we don't have petroleum to make plastics and practically every modern and medical necessity.
    But, by all means, drill baby drill, tap those tar sands, we need short term job growth or so help us civilization will implode!
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    rgambs said:

    brianlux said:

    The looming threat to big oil is the last drop of oil.

    My money says they are likely the best sources for when that drop is dropped. My money says they are at a minimum investigating alternative sources for fuel... and likely would tap wells dry before revealing their findings.

    I could be wrong though. They might just be harvesting what they can and as fast as they can- sucking whatever profit they might before the profits are no longer there for scarcity.

    Very possible scenario, 30B.

    Another is the peak oil theory. I haven't seen as much on that as I used to (and we know it's not a theory, it's fact) that eventually oil has to peak, then fall. If Canada is willing to give up a million square miles (or whatever monstrous piece of wilderness) to tar sand, then you know the pickin's getting thin.

    One peak oil scenario proposes that oil has been a relatively cheap, easily captured energy source for 100+ years and no one has yet found anything to match that kind of energy output per work needed to extract it (there's a formula for the scale of work/energy giving a value for least to most energy produced per work unit. I can't remember it right now). Something like solar, they say, cannot replace oil because it would take an adequate amount of that cheap energy to make enough solar to replace the oil and coal and when cheap oil runs low, demand will not be met for production of solar cells. They say even adding wind and other technologies will not work for the same reason. It's all in the formula and it makes sense. I wish I could find that in my brain. In any case, these theorists say we will not have the same high level of energy available in the future. That, if it happens that way, will have a big affect on everything.
    Yep, we will burn up all our fossil fuels for combustion purposes and we will be screwed when we don't have petroleum to make plastics and practically every modern and medical necessity.
    But, by all means, drill baby drill, tap those tar sands, we need short term job growth or so help us civilization will implode!
    Perfect summation of what we are doing. It drives me a bit nutty that the general public doesn't see that this is happening and that the powers that be seem hell-bent on making sure that it does happen. Good grief, why??
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,951
    brianlux said:

    The looming threat to big oil is the last drop of oil.

    My money says they are likely the best sources for when that drop is dropped. My money says they are at a minimum investigating alternative sources for fuel... and likely would tap wells dry before revealing their findings.

    I could be wrong though. They might just be harvesting what they can and as fast as they can- sucking whatever profit they might before the profits are no longer there for scarcity.

    Very possible scenario, 30B.

    Another is the peak oil theory. I haven't seen as much on that as I used to (and we know it's not a theory, it's fact) that eventually oil has to peak, then fall. If Canada is willing to give up a million square miles (or whatever monstrous piece of wilderness) to tar sand, then you know the pickin's getting thin.

    One peak oil scenario proposes that oil has been a relatively cheap, easily captured energy source for 100+ years and no one has yet found anything to match that kind of energy output per work needed to extract it (there's a formula for the scale of work/energy giving a value for least to most energy produced per work unit. I can't remember it right now). Something like solar, they say, cannot replace oil because it would take an adequate amount of that cheap energy to make enough solar to replace the oil and coal and when cheap oil runs low, demand will not be met for production of solar cells. They say even adding wind and other technologies will not work for the same reason. It's all in the formula and it makes sense. I wish I could find that in my brain. In any case, these theorists say we will not have the same high level of energy available in the future. That, if it happens that way, will have a big affect on everything.
    I don't feel like energy is the main concern. There are several alternate energy technologies available and more being worked on. The bigger problem is how to replace oil in manufacturing.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • You can't tell me that this is actually Capitalism. It's faux, total bullshit Corporate Communism for Multinational Corporations owned by foreigners in part. The USA and her people are being fucked over endlessly since WW2. It has to stop, the people aren't complacent or stupid, just distracted into states of apathy I think.
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617

    You can't tell me that this is actually Capitalism. It's faux, total bullshit Corporate Communism for Multinational Corporations owned by foreigners in part. The USA and her people are being fucked over endlessly since WW2. It has to stop, the people aren't complacent or stupid, just distracted into states of apathy I think.

    BOOM goes the dynamite!
    It all started with the Fed, that half private half governmental body owned mostly by foreigners.
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