Justice Scalia Suggests Blacks Belong at "Slower" Colleges

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/12/justice-scalia-suggests-blacks-belong-slower-colleges-fisher-university-texas

During oral arguments in a pivotal affirmative action case on Wednesday morning, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia raised the suggestion that African American students might belong at less rigorous schools than their white peers, and that perhaps the University of Texas should have fewer black students in its ranks.

Scalia's comments came during arguments in Fisher v. University of Texas, a case over whether the university's use of race in a sliver of its admissions decisions is constitutional. The University of Texas-Austin is being challenged over its use of race in admissions decisions for about 25 percent of its freshman class. About 75 percent of the students at UT-Austin are admitted through what's known as the Top Ten Percent program, in which any student graduating within the top 10 percent of his or her class is guaranteed admission, regardless of race. The other 25 percent are admitted via a "holistic" process that takes race, and other factors, into account. It's the "holistic" program that Abigail Fisher—who was denied admission for the university in 2008—is challenging.

The University of Texas has determined that if it excluded race as a factor, that remaining 25 percent would be almost entirely white. During the oral arguments, former US Solicitor General Greg Garre, who is representing the university, was explaining this to the justices. At that point, Scalia jumped in, questioning whether increasing the number of African Americans at the flagship university in Austin was in the black students' best interests. He said:
There are those who contend that it does not benefit African Americans to get them into the University of Texas, where they do not do well, as opposed to having them go to a less-advanced school, a slower-track school where they do well. One of the briefs pointed out that most of the black scientists in this country don't come from schools like the University of Texas. They come from lesser schools where they do not feel that they're being pushed ahead in classes that are too fast for them.
He went on to say, "I'm just not impressed by the fact the University of Texas may have fewer [blacks]. Maybe it ought to have fewer. I don't think it stands to reason that it's a good thing for the University of Texas to admit as many blacks as possible."

After a comment like this, Court watchers will really be looking forward to his opinion in the case.
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Comments

  • Most of my co-workers are African American. You can probably imagine about how well Scalia's comments went over with them.

    I've been told by parents of high school kids that it's very difficult to be accepted to UT. That surprised me since it's a state university but not having kids, I don't keep up with things like that. I was also surprised to read what a low percentage of students at UT are black.
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  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Posts: 10,767

    Most of my co-workers are African American. You can probably imagine about how well Scalia's comments went over with them.

    I've been told by parents of high school kids that it's very difficult to be accepted to UT. That surprised me since it's a state university but not having kids, I don't keep up with things like that. I was also surprised to read what a low percentage of students at UT are black.

    Very hard, even for in state applicants, to get into Univ. Of California schools as well.
  • Competition for admittance is fierce at the state schools in CA. Lots of high achievers in CA.
  • So a guy like trump makes headlines around the world for scathing racist remarks.
    This doesn't?
    This justice scalia person got the job somehow.
    Americans are a tough nut to crack.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576

    So a guy like trump makes headlines around the world for scathing racist remarks.
    This doesn't?
    This justice scalia person got the job somehow.
    Americans are a tough nut to crack.

    The operative word being "nut" lol
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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,593

    So a guy like trump makes headlines around the world for scathing racist remarks.
    This doesn't?
    This justice scalia person got the job somehow.
    Americans are a tough nut to crack.

    Appointed by a Pres and confirmed by the senate. He didnt run for shit.
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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,593
    Provides evidence that lifetime appointments need a serious looking at. Perhaps 20 ys if that.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

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  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    Damn it. I need new glasses. I'm not reading that article rightly. Surely can't be what I thought I read!!
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  • ldent42ldent42 Posts: 7,859
    I've seen the argument that kids from low income backgrounds do better in non-ivy league schools. I can get that argument. Privileged kids can be assholes. I mean most people around that age are assholes, but there's an extra level of it that comes with ivy league school level privilege. That argument is a cultural one though, and I think, says more about the state of ivy league schools than anything else. The argument that Scalia is making here, is that maybe segregation wasn't so bad after all cuz those blacks would be better off at a slower paced school, rather than trying to keep up with the white kids at the University of Texas. I have to admit, I would love to see RBG just reach over and slap the stupid of this jerkface.
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  • And some folks wonder why Trump leads in the polls? This is what the conservative base that controls and determines the primaries believes in. The chickens are coming home to roost.
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  • And some folks wonder why Trump leads in the polls? This is what the conservative base that controls and determines the primaries believes in. The chickens are coming home to roost.

    Read the whole article, it's pretty interesting.
  • And some folks wonder why Trump leads in the polls? This is what the conservative base that controls and determines the primaries believes in. The chickens are coming home to roost.

    Read the whole article, it's pretty interesting.
    And so?
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  • And some folks wonder why Trump leads in the polls? This is what the conservative base that controls and determines the primaries believes in. The chickens are coming home to roost.

    Read the whole article, it's pretty interesting.
    And so?
    I read it. I'm curious if you did from the 5th circuit on up?
  • Sorry, are you referencing the Wikipedia link? If so, I'd take that with a grain of salt but I'll read it anyway. I haven't yet. I think you can read the case history on the supreme court's website which is the docs, briefs and minutes as admitted in court. Purer source of info IMHO. I'll check it though as court arguments can be fascinating and sometimes dry as a bone.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,954
    Anyone else kind of feel like we've all time traveled back to 1962 recently?
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    PJ_Soul said:

    Anyone else kind of feel like we've all time traveled back to 1962 recently?

    Absolutely what I was thinking. Talk about "backsliding".

    Some (not here, yet, but we'll see) are contesting that African Americans with lower SAT scores are being admitted to the higher level schools in order to maintain a racial diversity in them and that doing so is actually harmful to black minorities. Sounds like a logical argument, right?

    Or is it? This is where critical thinking comes into play. Did any of these people take into consideration that lower SAT scores are often the result of these kids going to schools that don't provide the resources to help poor kids excel in school? Those scores often have more to do with economic disparity than with smarts. Isn't it interesting that these factors are often completely ignored?

    Yes, this is sounding more like 1962 (or earlier) to me. I was only 11 in 1962 buts that's old enough to remember what the times were like. Yes, sorry to say it-- we have regressed.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
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  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Posts: 10,767
    PJ_Soul said:

    Anyone else kind of feel like we've all time traveled back to 1962 recently?

    I was thinking 1952
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 29,541

    PJ_Soul said:

    Anyone else kind of feel like we've all time traveled back to 1962 recently?

    I was thinking 1952
    Yeah 50s for sure
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • brianlux said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    Anyone else kind of feel like we've all time traveled back to 1962 recently?

    Absolutely what I was thinking. Talk about "backsliding".

    Some (not here, yet, but we'll see) are contesting that African Americans with lower SAT scores are being admitted to the higher level schools in order to maintain a racial diversity in them and that doing so is actually harmful to black minorities. Sounds like a logical argument, right?

    Or is it? This is where critical thinking comes into play. Did any of these people take into consideration that lower SAT scores are often the result of these kids going to schools that don't provide the resources to help poor kids excel in school? Those scores often have more to do with economic disparity than with smarts. Isn't it interesting that these factors are often completely ignored?

    Yes, this is sounding more like 1962 (or earlier) to me. I was only 11 in 1962 buts that's old enough to remember what the times were like. Yes, sorry to say it-- we have regressed.
    It really does sound awful.

    This case may also end Affirmative Action in colleges.


  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    The reason I fear Cruz and all other whack jobs on right. Supreme Court nominations.
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  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 29,541
    Well I'm glad garbage like this gets out to the general public ....
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  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524

    PJ_Soul said:

    Anyone else kind of feel like we've all time traveled back to 1962 recently?

    I was thinking 1952
    Let's do the time warp again!
  • ldent42ldent42 Posts: 7,859
    I think earlier than that actually. Like 1930s.

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  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 12,529
    get passed the racial insensitivity the bottom line is it doesn't help anyone to admit kids to schools they can't achieve at. admitting students just for numbers and perception who most likely won't make it through just hurts the students themselves. Poorly stated by Scalia...but not wholly incorrect either.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,954
    edited December 2015
    Some of you have a really good opinion of what it was like for Black people in America in the early 60s, lol. ;)
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    pjhawks said:

    get passed the racial insensitivity the bottom line is it doesn't help anyone to admit kids to schools they can't achieve at. admitting students just for numbers and perception who most likely won't make it through just hurts the students themselves. Poorly stated by Scalia...but not wholly incorrect either.

    Not gonna give Scalia a pass that easily. What do you think about what I said above? Makes no difference? Good point? Irrelevant?
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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,954
    edited December 2015
    pjhawks said:

    get passed the racial insensitivity the bottom line is it doesn't help anyone to admit kids to schools they can't achieve at. admitting students just for numbers and perception who most likely won't make it through just hurts the students themselves. Poorly stated by Scalia...but not wholly incorrect either.

    I honestly am not sure if I approve of affirmative action or not. I know the pros, I know the cons, I understand the thinking behind it on both sides, and I still can't decide which argument wins. But that is not the point. Scalia went WAAAAAAY beyond speaking against affirmative action here (which is a perfectly reasonable viewpoint), and that is the problem. There is no need to make excuses for the bullshit that creep spewed in this case.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 12,529
    brianlux said:

    pjhawks said:

    get passed the racial insensitivity the bottom line is it doesn't help anyone to admit kids to schools they can't achieve at. admitting students just for numbers and perception who most likely won't make it through just hurts the students themselves. Poorly stated by Scalia...but not wholly incorrect either.

    Not gonna give Scalia a pass that easily. What do you think about what I said above? Makes no difference? Good point? Irrelevant?
    I think your point above is spot on. Maybe the process of choosing which students from those type of schools should be admitted needs to be changed. Clearly there are many who can have lower SATs and still achieve at a high level. We just need to maybe check a bit more to find them than arbitrarily picking an SAT score or what your class rank was.
  • ldent42ldent42 Posts: 7,859
    I think it's important to remember that they reserved that 25% to make sure they admit some students of color because otherwise they wouldn't have any. It certainly seems to me like the root cause of that problem is the school system the students are coming from, not the university.
    I would argue that diversity in schools is important. Homogeneity is a breeding ground for ignorance and racism. That's how trump gets poll numbers.
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  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    Scalia likely had some valid and real points, but they were lost in his unfortunately racist overtones.

    I think the overall point is valid - if you suspend your admittance criteria to force a population in, those who "benefit" from that really will be at a disadvantage with their peers. Put race aside. If a school decided they wanted more kids of veterans to attend, and suspended the rigorous academic standards to get the numbers they wanted, those kids may well have a hard time keeping up with the curriculum if they couldn't meet the baseline standard for admittance. Hell, I know I wouldn't have stood a chance at Columbia, MIT, Harvard, Dartmouth, whatever. I didn't have an embarrassing record coming out of high school, but would have been way over my head being surrounded by academic overachievers. Nothing to do with intelligence - more to do with my focus/priorities at the time, the curriculum, and the pace of learning. I was happy doing things at the pace i was used to, and would have floundered in an institution that requires almost religious diligence to the coursework. It would have been a setup for failure to admit me to one of those institutions.

    I am opposed to affirmative action, not because it is attempting to give a less represented population a shot (I applaud that!), but because of the above - if they couldn't pass muster from an academic standpoint, and were admitted due to some other factor, they likely aren't going to be prepared to succeed. If they were ready to be admitted, it would have been reflected in their previous coursework and scores. I would like to see data, and I'm sure it exists, regarding the success rates/graduation rates of those students who get admitted on the basis of something other than academic achievement vis-a-vis the general student population who were admitted based on their academics.
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