Canadian Politics Redux

Parksy

BF89905 said:

Parksy said:

CPC leadership is turning out to be what some if not most of us on I here predicted... a dumpster fire. 

If unaware... Patrick Brown has been ousted from the leadership race.  Proof has not been provided by the CPC and Brown is not only denying any wrongdoing but going to the extreme lengths of suggesting publicly that this is a screw job (not unlike Bret Hart / Shawn Michaels) done by the Polievre campaign.  He is claiming that the Conservative leadership committee is in cahoots with Polievre and has ousted him because he is a threat. Fascinating and salacious stuff from our politics today. 

While on the subject of Polievre...  he is seemingly digging in even further to a far right leaning leadership bid.  Recently he has done interviews with the likes of Jordan Peterson and True North Media, and he marched with Freedom Convoy supporters on Canada Day. 

I honestly don't think any of this helps the Conservative Party.  More importantly, I think the criticism he receives regarding being more akin to Trumpism seems to ring truer each day.  True North for example are known far right.. bordering on conspiracy type crap.. and have historically supported Donald Trump even going so far as to post a segment featuring disgraced Conrad Black supporting and bolstering Trump as if he's some sort of hero.  

We have a long way to go... but if 2025 becomes Trudeau vs. Polievere ... I honestly weep for our country. Like they say in Letterkenny... would you rather have shit in your nose forever or piss in your mouth forever. 

I agree with your assessment of the CPC party. Polievre is a well spoken grifter. He's literally a lifer politician, that I don't think has ever held a real job. 

A very large problem with Canadian politics nowadays is that more than half of the eligible voters aren't paying attention, which is so disappointing; they also don't see it worth their time to vote. * See June's Ontario election as a snapshot of apathy.

Main stream media has been talking for over a week about airport delays. How are the hospitals doing? Answer: not good

Let's hope things improve 

Agreed

Zod

BF89905 said:

Parksy said:

CPC leadership is turning out to be what some if not most of us on I here predicted... a dumpster fire. 

If unaware... Patrick Brown has been ousted from the leadership race.  Proof has not been provided by the CPC and Brown is not only denying any wrongdoing but going to the extreme lengths of suggesting publicly that this is a screw job (not unlike Bret Hart / Shawn Michaels) done by the Polievre campaign.  He is claiming that the Conservative leadership committee is in cahoots with Polievre and has ousted him because he is a threat. Fascinating and salacious stuff from our politics today. 

While on the subject of Polievre...  he is seemingly digging in even further to a far right leaning leadership bid.  Recently he has done interviews with the likes of Jordan Peterson and True North Media, and he marched with Freedom Convoy supporters on Canada Day. 

I honestly don't think any of this helps the Conservative Party.  More importantly, I think the criticism he receives regarding being more akin to Trumpism seems to ring truer each day.  True North for example are known far right.. bordering on conspiracy type crap.. and have historically supported Donald Trump even going so far as to post a segment featuring disgraced Conrad Black supporting and bolstering Trump as if he's some sort of hero.  

We have a long way to go... but if 2025 becomes Trudeau vs. Polievere ... I honestly weep for our country. Like they say in Letterkenny... would you rather have shit in your nose forever or piss in your mouth forever. 

I agree with your assessment of the CPC party. Polievre is a well spoken grifter. He's literally a lifer politician, that I don't think has ever held a real job. 

A very large problem with Canadian politics nowadays is that more than half of the eligible voters aren't paying attention, which is so disappointing; they also don't see it worth their time to vote. * See June's Ontario election as a snapshot of apathy.

Main stream media has been talking for over a week about airport delays. How are the hospitals doing? Answer: not good

Let's hope things improve 

Which is understandable, because the choices are generally between a giant douch and a turd (reference stolen from South Park). I vote, but in the last election I voted Green, because I'm completely disenfranchised by the Cons, Libs, and NDP.   Greens were a train wreck in the last election, yet I voted for them anyways.

I can see why people vote. It makes little to no difference.  None of the options are really going to be able to solve the major problems we're going through.. sigh...

I think it's going to be a tough couple of decades.  It feels like so many things need to be improved and need more funding, but at the same time we have  a tsunami of an aging population.    That means less tax revenue from a large part of the population, and higher demands on social programs because of an aging population.   The young are facing tougher economic times I think than any generation since WWII.   They're only going to be able to be taxed so much.

Social programs are like a ponzi scheme.  They only work if way more people pay into them, then suck money out of them.   Not sure how any party is going to solve these issues.

PJ_Soul

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

DarthMaeglin said:

I suppose I’m a terrible person for seeing this float as a political statement and not particularly racist. How else is one supposed to represent Singh to make their point?

Of course here in Toronto we just had the Pride parade where the celebrants talked about how inclusive they were, never mentioning the fact uniformed police are barred from marching because someone might be triggered (but it’s ok to have them on the sidelines providing security for some reason).

Maybe the solution is to ban all political statements and displays by everyone so no one ever gets offended?

would it be ok in your eyes to use blackface as a political statement against obama?

I don’t think I need to answer that because I’ve gone on at length about how wrong Trudeau was to put on blackface so many times he can’t remember. And you have been dismissive of those criticisms. (I must on this point admit an error. Apparently Trudeau didn’t study drama which would have exposed him to the history of blackface, he studied math, apparently.)

So what is the acceptable way to represent a political leader who happens to be obviously of a certain ethnicity? If they had found an actual Sikh person to represent Singh would that have canceled your claims of racism? Do we only use generic white people holding signs representing the relevant party?

the criticisms were valid. But I believed him when he said he was ignorant. I was as well. people also called me a liar and an apologist. (I honestly don't care much for JT anymore; I just think he's the best of our terrible choices right now-I really was ignorant)

I honestly don't know the answer to that question. I understand the want to make a political statement and to be clear about what you are saying; but we also know in today's day, it is well established you can't dress up as another ethnic group and not be accused of racism or at the very very least, appropriation. 

Do you not think that, at least at some level, that was meant to provoke anger amongst the left but also appeal to the racists who would approve?

To your last paragraph, it’s entirely possible (I’ll even say likely) that you’re entirely correct, but I don’t know how else to represent what was desired (outside of my suggestion of generic politicians). As you said/implied there’s no easy answer.

 I appreciate your following post as well, and for what it’s worth I hope I never called you (or anyone else) a liar. All I can do is post/express my own truths and trust that others are doing the same. And that doesn’t mean I/we can’t be wrong every so often, lol.

It's not too hard to work out a way to send their supposed message. I figure that the thinking should go like this: "Hmm. Will people think this is racist??" ... "Yeah, probably." ... "How can I pull this specific idea off without it being racist?" .... "Hmm... that's pretty tricky." ..... "Yeah. Back to the drawing board!"

It's easy to get political points across without being racist and offensive, lol. But there are many people who don't care if they offend, and those same people I don't think even understand why it offends, because they are unable to have empathy for minorities in a way that would help them in that area.

BTW, I don't get the humour part of the argument... I don't get how anyone would think that's hilarious in any way, even completely ignoring that it might offend people. It's a statement, but not a funny one.

DarthMaeglin

PJ_Soul said:

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

DarthMaeglin said:

I suppose I’m a terrible person for seeing this float as a political statement and not particularly racist. How else is one supposed to represent Singh to make their point?

Of course here in Toronto we just had the Pride parade where the celebrants talked about how inclusive they were, never mentioning the fact uniformed police are barred from marching because someone might be triggered (but it’s ok to have them on the sidelines providing security for some reason).

Maybe the solution is to ban all political statements and displays by everyone so no one ever gets offended?

would it be ok in your eyes to use blackface as a political statement against obama?

I don’t think I need to answer that because I’ve gone on at length about how wrong Trudeau was to put on blackface so many times he can’t remember. And you have been dismissive of those criticisms. (I must on this point admit an error. Apparently Trudeau didn’t study drama which would have exposed him to the history of blackface, he studied math, apparently.)

So what is the acceptable way to represent a political leader who happens to be obviously of a certain ethnicity? If they had found an actual Sikh person to represent Singh would that have canceled your claims of racism? Do we only use generic white people holding signs representing the relevant party?

the criticisms were valid. But I believed him when he said he was ignorant. I was as well. people also called me a liar and an apologist. (I honestly don't care much for JT anymore; I just think he's the best of our terrible choices right now-I really was ignorant)

I honestly don't know the answer to that question. I understand the want to make a political statement and to be clear about what you are saying; but we also know in today's day, it is well established you can't dress up as another ethnic group and not be accused of racism or at the very very least, appropriation. 

Do you not think that, at least at some level, that was meant to provoke anger amongst the left but also appeal to the racists who would approve?

To your last paragraph, it’s entirely possible (I’ll even say likely) that you’re entirely correct, but I don’t know how else to represent what was desired (outside of my suggestion of generic politicians). As you said/implied there’s no easy answer.

 I appreciate your following post as well, and for what it’s worth I hope I never called you (or anyone else) a liar. All I can do is post/express my own truths and trust that others are doing the same. And that doesn’t mean I/we can’t be wrong every so often, lol.

It's not too hard to work out a way to send their supposed message. I figure that the thinking should go like this: "Hmm. Will people think this is racist??" ... "Yeah, probably." ... "How can I pull this specific idea off without it being racist?" .... "Hmm... that's pretty tricky." ..... "Yeah. Back to the drawing board!"

It's easy to get political points across without being racist and offensive, lol. But there are many people who don't care if they offend, and those same people I don't think even understand why it offends, because they are unable to have empathy for minorities in a way that would help them in that area.

BTW, I don't get the humour part of the argument... I don't get how anyone would think that's hilarious in any way, even completely ignoring that it might offend people. It's a statement, but not a funny one.

I guess I just don’t see a representation of an individual as being inherently racist, even in this case. The line for me is when race becomes the focus of the mocking, which I don’t see here. Is the Singh character dressed in a Trudeau’s-India-trip-type costume (which would make it racist to me)? They didn’t, they went with Jagmeet Singh the man, who likes to present a dapper appearance, by putting him in a suit.

Really I agree that this group did a poor job of presenting their point, but a more accurate version would have been even more easily interpreted as racist, Jagmeet pulling Justin’s cart. Was this in poor taste? Sure, but I don’t necessarily see it as racist.

Parksy

DarthMaeglin said:

PJ_Soul said:

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

DarthMaeglin said:

I suppose I’m a terrible person for seeing this float as a political statement and not particularly racist. How else is one supposed to represent Singh to make their point?

Of course here in Toronto we just had the Pride parade where the celebrants talked about how inclusive they were, never mentioning the fact uniformed police are barred from marching because someone might be triggered (but it’s ok to have them on the sidelines providing security for some reason).

Maybe the solution is to ban all political statements and displays by everyone so no one ever gets offended?

would it be ok in your eyes to use blackface as a political statement against obama?

I don’t think I need to answer that because I’ve gone on at length about how wrong Trudeau was to put on blackface so many times he can’t remember. And you have been dismissive of those criticisms. (I must on this point admit an error. Apparently Trudeau didn’t study drama which would have exposed him to the history of blackface, he studied math, apparently.)

So what is the acceptable way to represent a political leader who happens to be obviously of a certain ethnicity? If they had found an actual Sikh person to represent Singh would that have canceled your claims of racism? Do we only use generic white people holding signs representing the relevant party?

the criticisms were valid. But I believed him when he said he was ignorant. I was as well. people also called me a liar and an apologist. (I honestly don't care much for JT anymore; I just think he's the best of our terrible choices right now-I really was ignorant)

I honestly don't know the answer to that question. I understand the want to make a political statement and to be clear about what you are saying; but we also know in today's day, it is well established you can't dress up as another ethnic group and not be accused of racism or at the very very least, appropriation. 

Do you not think that, at least at some level, that was meant to provoke anger amongst the left but also appeal to the racists who would approve?

To your last paragraph, it’s entirely possible (I’ll even say likely) that you’re entirely correct, but I don’t know how else to represent what was desired (outside of my suggestion of generic politicians). As you said/implied there’s no easy answer.

 I appreciate your following post as well, and for what it’s worth I hope I never called you (or anyone else) a liar. All I can do is post/express my own truths and trust that others are doing the same. And that doesn’t mean I/we can’t be wrong every so often, lol.

It's not too hard to work out a way to send their supposed message. I figure that the thinking should go like this: "Hmm. Will people think this is racist??" ... "Yeah, probably." ... "How can I pull this specific idea off without it being racist?" .... "Hmm... that's pretty tricky." ..... "Yeah. Back to the drawing board!"

It's easy to get political points across without being racist and offensive, lol. But there are many people who don't care if they offend, and those same people I don't think even understand why it offends, because they are unable to have empathy for minorities in a way that would help them in that area.

BTW, I don't get the humour part of the argument... I don't get how anyone would think that's hilarious in any way, even completely ignoring that it might offend people. It's a statement, but not a funny one.

I guess I just don’t see a representation of an individual as being inherently racist, even in this case. The line for me is when race becomes the focus of the mocking, which I don’t see here. Is the Singh character dressed in a Trudeau’s-India-trip-type costume (which would make it racist to me)? They didn’t, they went with Jagmeet Singh the man, who likes to present a dapper appearance, by putting him in a suit.

Really I agree that this group did a poor job of presenting their point, but a more accurate version would have been even more easily interpreted as racist, Jagmeet pulling Justin’s cart. Was this in poor taste? Sure, but I don’t necessarily see it as racist.

This is just personal opinion....  I'm a believer that by doing an offensive thing, even a racially offensive thing doesn't necessarily make that person racist especially without knowing context and intention.  Some people are honestly just stupid or unaware. 

The huge difference to me... is if a person does something with whatever intention it was... and then gets called out for it...  Do they own it and learn from it?  Or do they complain about it?  And then folks like us.. the general public... same goes.  What is the reaction afterwards?  If you take the side of the person who did the thing and make it seem like what they did was completely fine, there's an issue there especially when the necessity of the 'joke' is non-existent.  And your exemplifying willful ignorance and a lack of empathy. 

BF89905

Zod said:

BF89905 said:

Parksy said:

CPC leadership is turning out to be what some if not most of us on I here predicted... a dumpster fire. 

If unaware... Patrick Brown has been ousted from the leadership race.  Proof has not been provided by the CPC and Brown is not only denying any wrongdoing but going to the extreme lengths of suggesting publicly that this is a screw job (not unlike Bret Hart / Shawn Michaels) done by the Polievre campaign.  He is claiming that the Conservative leadership committee is in cahoots with Polievre and has ousted him because he is a threat. Fascinating and salacious stuff from our politics today. 

While on the subject of Polievre...  he is seemingly digging in even further to a far right leaning leadership bid.  Recently he has done interviews with the likes of Jordan Peterson and True North Media, and he marched with Freedom Convoy supporters on Canada Day. 

I honestly don't think any of this helps the Conservative Party.  More importantly, I think the criticism he receives regarding being more akin to Trumpism seems to ring truer each day.  True North for example are known far right.. bordering on conspiracy type crap.. and have historically supported Donald Trump even going so far as to post a segment featuring disgraced Conrad Black supporting and bolstering Trump as if he's some sort of hero.  

We have a long way to go... but if 2025 becomes Trudeau vs. Polievere ... I honestly weep for our country. Like they say in Letterkenny... would you rather have shit in your nose forever or piss in your mouth forever. 

I agree with your assessment of the CPC party. Polievre is a well spoken grifter. He's literally a lifer politician, that I don't think has ever held a real job. 

A very large problem with Canadian politics nowadays is that more than half of the eligible voters aren't paying attention, which is so disappointing; they also don't see it worth their time to vote. * See June's Ontario election as a snapshot of apathy.

Main stream media has been talking for over a week about airport delays. How are the hospitals doing? Answer: not good

Let's hope things improve 

Which is understandable, because the choices are generally between a giant douch and a turd (reference stolen from South Park). I vote, but in the last election I voted Green, because I'm completely disenfranchised by the Cons, Libs, and NDP.   Greens were a train wreck in the last election, yet I voted for them anyways.

I can see why people vote. It makes little to no difference.  None of the options are really going to be able to solve the major problems we're going through.. sigh...

I think it's going to be a tough couple of decades.  It feels like so many things need to be improved and need more funding, but at the same time we have  a tsunami of an aging population.    That means less tax revenue from a large part of the population, and higher demands on social programs because of an aging population.   The young are facing tougher economic times I think than any generation since WWII.   They're only going to be able to be taxed so much.

Social programs are like a ponzi scheme.  They only work if way more people pay into them, then suck money out of them.   Not sure how any party is going to solve these issues.

I think provincial social programs would be drastically improved if corporations were actually paying taxes that are much closer to what residents pay. Properly taxing the ultra rich, and then subsequently having people in government that aren't turds, would hopefully lead to more tangible social program funding, & improved health care and education systems. More "we" and less "me"

Unfortunately, it does feel like it's going to be a rough decade or two. 

Take care and have a nice weekend 

DarthMaeglin

Damnit, I missed my chance, lol. Turns out Trudeau was literally just up the road from me this morning, though he was likely gone by the time I rolled out of bed, lol. Wonder why they aren’t publicizing his appearances in advance these days, lol?

Nami

https://petitions.ourcommons.ca/en/Petition/Details?Petition=e-4054

A step in the right direction. 

Zod

lol, online petitions.. the 2nd least thing you can do to cause actual change, only to be topped by doing nothing.. lol.

Parksy

Circling back to the 'what is offensive and what isn't?' discussion...

John Cleese made some news recently whereby he was on Fox and suggested that 'wokeness' is doing considerable harm to comedy.  

He said that when comedians sit down to write material they are constantly asking themselves if they should or shouldn't say something because someone got in trouble.  Cleese then stated that it was that hesitation that is harming creativity. 

So I gotta say... I can't disagree with Cleese more here. In fact, I honestly think he makes an argument against himself.  Being creative to me suggests that a good creative writer can come up with material that doesn't offend anyone.  Taking pot shots at people or insulting people to me is the easiest and laziest form of comedy. 

And this is a personal opinion.. but if we consider 'wokeness' as some sort of movement of political correctness...  if people are now starting to stop, think, and most importantly CONSIDER what they are writing and saying... I believe the movement is working correctly. CONSIDER other people... before you speak and act.  That's a form of CONSIDERATION... which to the best of my knowledge is an admirable and good trait. 

What is potentially problematic and what I consider to be a fault in society is that to Cleese's point.. comedians are asking themselves what to and not to say for the sake of themselves... to keep themselves out of trouble.  It would be refreshing and nice if those same people stopped saying offensive things not out of self preservation but out of respect for others,  

DarthMaeglin

I’ve obviously been supportive of the dreaded Freedom Convoy but this is one of the ways they lose some of that support. I just generally don’t like when one protest tries to hijack another.

https://globalnews.ca/news/9010631/pope-francis-maskwacis-freedom-convoy/

Parksy

I've obviously been thoroughly against the Freedom Convoy...  and for obvious reasons.  

Keep in mind... their original agenda was never protest.  Ever.  Nor was in democratic in any way.  We're learning recently that the organizers had every intention to plug Ottawa and disrupt the city (and it's residents). 

To each their own with whatever cause they have...  I don't agree at all with their particular cause.. but that aside... I liken their tactics to cabbies and truckers who protest by plugging up roadways.  I never understood how inconveniencing the public could gain any support especially when you have social media to get messages to thousands of people etc. 

DarthMaeglin

“Give peace a chance?” Not in Trudeauland!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/freedom-convoy-protest-trudeau-emergencies-act-1.6552820

I do realize many here are fine with not dialogueing with those protesters, for me the problem arises from all the other protesters and occupations that were tolerated and engaged with.

More and more as we learn what transpired within the government I do have to wonder at what point criminal charges might apply (not that I have any faith in Lucki).

HughFreakingDillon

what criminality transpired in your view?

honestly, I don't think you can compare engaging with this convoy and any other group. Has any other group held an international border hostage? an entire city's downtown? not that I'm aware of. 

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

what criminality transpired in your view?

honestly, I don't think you can compare engaging with this convoy and any other group. Has any other group held an international border hostage? an entire city's downtown? not that I'm aware of. 

The rail blockades were having a sizeable economic impact for one, and I do remember quite a number of local residents being very upset with the Occupy movement.

As far as criminal charges against the government, I actually doubt there’s anything that would apply. I guess I still think there need to be penalties applied if the EMA was enacted recklessly. Again, I want to stress that a large part of my concern here is for the precedent that is being set in this case with a very low bar. I’m not just trying to look out for the groups I agree with but also (maybe even especially) those I don’t agree with. And I do continue to look at how previous protests were handled because I don’t see the disconnect that you and others do.

 I guess I’ll say if a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian, then a protest is a protest is a protest (as opposed to the G20 riots I watched live on tv one weekend).

DarthMaeglin

And as French suggests in the article, what was the harm in waiting a couple days to see if anything material came out of the negotiations? This looks and smells to me like Trudeau pouring gasoline on the fire instead of giving suppresants a chance.

HughFreakingDillon

well, to say it again, I think he was under immense pressure from the US admin to solve the problem. 

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

well, to say it again, I think he was under immense pressure from the US admin to solve the problem. 

Honestly, if that’s truly what happened then Trudeau should just come clean as to his motivations and begin the process of making us the 51st state (or would we be allowed to join as 13 states perhaps?).

By the time the EMA was brought into effect, the borders were either fully open or well on their way to being so. The EMA was used at a time when it truly was a local protest. And again, what would the harm have been in waiting 2-3 days to see if the negotiations bore any fruit?

HughFreakingDillon

I don't think that bowing to political pressure of a neighbouring country that is your biggest ally leads to becoming part of that country. this happens all the time. just not always in the news. 

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

I don't think that bowing to political pressure of a neighbouring country that is your biggest ally leads to becoming part of that country. this happens all the time. just not always in the news. 

I get what you’re saying, but if Trudeau was willing to let things fester and only took action when Biden called, and with the reaction he had (EMA, piss on any potential of a peaceful resolution), then can we be assured that Trudeau is, in fact, acting independently and in the best interests of the nation he’s supposed to be governing? For me it’s a trick question because he keeps hamstringing our economy with unproven environmental policies (but then again, look at his personal carbon footprint, he’s undeniably a hypocrite on that file).

Could Trudeau not have told Biden that he was going to wait a couple days to see if the situation could be resolved peacefully? I do honestly question how much Trudeau’s ego came into play as we learn more and more. And I haven’t been able to figure out one single thing the federal government did to try to diffuse tensions (in fact what I saw from the outset was the exact opposite).