Concussions and sports...

tempo_n_groove

With all the talk and procedures in place now for concussions in sports, mainly football, will there come a day where parents won't let their kids play that sport for fear of injury?

dankind

tempo_n_groove said:

With all the talk and procedures in place now for concussions in sports, mainly football, will there come a day where parents won't let their kids play that sport for fear of injury?

What do you mean "will there come a day"? That day has been with us since the dawn of contact sports and (over)protective parents.

xhausted1

Possibly. I heard the last week some school outside STL shutdown it's football program because they did not have enough kids interested. Seems the kids would rather play soccer. (Which I like better.) Their homecoming game was a soccer game this year.

pjhawks

yes, although parents who specify football might be surprised at the number of concussions in soccer. I believe HBO Real Sports did a segment where they said at the high school level there are more 'severe' concussions in soccer than in football (but opposite is true at other levels). I know for girls sports concussions are becoming a huge problem and doctors say it is because girls necks are not as strong as boys so collisions in sports like soccer can affect girls more severely.

it's scary stuff. hearing stories of how some professional athletes can't function at all on a daily basis because of concussions and post-concussions is hard to see and watch.

tempo_n_groove

I've heard of the theory of using "leather helmets" again. The football layers today use there heads on every play. Take the helmet away and they'll be quite careful to not knock heads.

Amongst the Ani

Leather helmets could never happen. Too many incidental hits would cause more severe issues than a concussion without a helmet. Think about a guy getting drilled hard (even with proper form) and being pile driven onto the ground with a 265lb linebacker driving through him. The head might pop on the turf like a melon when it bounced off of it. We are about to get cars that drive themselves yet we can't get a better football helmet. Go figure.

JimmyV

Had this conversation with three friends a few weekends ago. All three with small children, all three big sports fans, and all three leaning against letting their kids play football when the time comes. It does feel like the clock is ticking for football in this current form. Real changes have to come if it is going to survive at all. Maybe not in this generation but certainly in the next.

tempo_n_groove

Amongst the Ani said:

Leather helmets could never happen. Too many incidental hits would cause more severe issues than a concussion without a helmet. Think about a guy getting drilled hard (even with proper form) and being pile driven onto the ground with a 265lb linebacker driving through him. The head might pop on the turf like a melon when it bounced off of it. We are about to get cars that drive themselves yet we can't get a better football helmet. Go figure.

Ever watch rugby or Australian rules football? They don't seem to have a problem?

dankind

tempo_n_groove said:

Amongst the Ani said:

Leather helmets could never happen. Too many incidental hits would cause more severe issues than a concussion without a helmet. Think about a guy getting drilled hard (even with proper form) and being pile driven onto the ground with a 265lb linebacker driving through him. The head might pop on the turf like a melon when it bounced off of it. We are about to get cars that drive themselves yet we can't get a better football helmet. Go figure.

Ever watch rugby or Australian rules football? They don't seem to have a problem?

This is America, t_n_g. We like to inflict maximum damage.

This:


And this:


And this:


So why not this?:

g under p

Football players are praised and heralded for hits like that last one. Maybe that's one of the reasons I never played football played hockey as a goaltender instead. I don't foresee many changes in the American gladiator sport but so far the concussion changes they are making will make a difference. Even though this sport is becoming even more violent as the players become faster, stronger and bigger than ever before.

Peace

tempo_n_groove

g under p said:

Football players are praised and heralded for hits like that last one. Maybe that's one of the reasons I never played football played hockey as a goaltender instead. I don't foresee many changes in the American gladiator sport but so far the concussion changes they are making will make a difference. Even though this sport is becoming even more violent as the players become faster, stronger and bigger than ever before.

Peace

Agreed^

That hit above though is "spearing" because the crown of his helmet met the other players chin. It's hits like that that they are banning. Look up Chuck Cecil and you'll see some hits.

I also agree with you too Dan. Full speed or nothing...

Will there be a time that parents are so afraid of their kids getting hurt that they keep them in doors?

brianlux

Let them play baseball!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXacL0Uny0

gimmesometruth27

tempo_n_groove said:

With all the talk and procedures in place now for concussions in sports, mainly football, will there come a day where parents won't let their kids play that sport for fear of injury?

yes. it is already happening.

i work with an orthopedic surgeon who is affiliated the the Blues and Rams. already doctors are coming out and stating that they will never let their own kids play football and advise their patients against it as well.

the scary thing is not what we know about brain injury. it is what we don't know about it. concussion management and the liability associated with it is the main reason i am not working on the sidelines at a school anymore. i do not want that responsibility. i made it 9 years without having to do cpr, and nobody died on my watch. i thought it was just a matter of time before something catastrophic happened. now i work in the somewhat controlled environment of a doctor's office and OR.

we do know that if you play sports and sustain a concussion and then get another concussive blow on top of the existing concussion, it can be fatal. second impact syndrome.

concussions and their impact on your brain is cumulative. i played football, baseball, and hockey, and fought mma for a couple of years after that. i sustained at least 4 documented concussions in 15 years.. mostly as a teenager and one in my 20s. anecdotally, i suffered from bouts of depression following these injuries. i am convinced, 100% that those brain injuries are a contributing factor.

gimmesometruth27

xhausted1 said:

Possibly. I heard the last week some school outside STL shutdown it's football program because they did not have enough kids interested. Seems the kids would rather play soccer. (Which I like better.) Their homecoming game was a soccer game this year.

i live 15 minutes from there. it is the maplewood school district. they are a small school, like class 1 or 2. in missouri 6A is for the really large schools.

i saw an interview with the director of athletics for the school. last year their football program had one severe concussion and an ankle injury that required surgery and a few less serious injuries. that is a typical week and a large school. the interest had been waning in football at the school so they dropped it. it is in a swanky part of town so maybe they were afraid a parent was going to sue the district over those injuries or something.

gimmesometruth27

pjhawks said:

yes, although parents who specify football might be surprised at the number of concussions in soccer. I believe HBO Real Sports did a segment where they said at the high school level there are more 'severe' concussions in soccer than in football (but opposite is true at other levels). I know for girls sports concussions are becoming a huge problem and doctors say it is because girls necks are not as strong as boys so collisions in sports like soccer can affect girls more severely.

it's scary stuff. hearing stories of how some professional athletes can't function at all on a daily basis because of concussions and post-concussions is hard to see and watch.

when i was a high school athletic trainer i had more concussions in cheerleading that pretty much any other sport. for some reason some of these girls would drop the smaller girls and not try to break their fall.

soccer is a big culprit. if you try to serve a header that is coming down from 80 feet in the air there is some serious force on an unprotected skull. most soccer concussions occur when opposing players go up to head a 50/50 ball and they bang their heads together.

everyone always cites old football players as the people who can hardly function after their careers. i would almost point out boxers and professional wrestlers as better examples of what repeated head trauma can do to someone.

gimmesometruth27

Amongst the Ani said:

Leather helmets could never happen. Too many incidental hits would cause more severe issues than a concussion without a helmet. Think about a guy getting drilled hard (even with proper form) and being pile driven onto the ground with a 265lb linebacker driving through him. The head might pop on the turf like a melon when it bounced off of it. We are about to get cars that drive themselves yet we can't get a better football helmet. Go figure.

the helmet is not the problem. the mechanism of injury for concussion is not normally a direct blow, something that could be prevented by a helmet and facemask. a real concussion mechanism of injury is from the velocity at which someone's head and neck changes directions. the brain floats in cerebrospinal fluid inside the skull. say someone gets a direct blow on the right side of their head. their head and neck are going to absorb that force and move quickly and forcefully to the left. the brain, floating in fluid, will follow suit. the muscles and bony anatomy of the neck will slow down the head movement to the left, but the brain is unrestrained and will keep going at the same rate until it slams against the inside of the skull on the left side of the head. this is called a coup injury. sometimes the force is so great that the brain actually bounces off the inside of the skull and ricochets off the inside of the other side of the skull. this is called a coup/countrecoup injury. those are normally the really bad ones. the brain, like all soft tissue actually will bleed. the really bad ones are coup/countrecoup with an element of rotation. rotation is bad because you have sharp prominences on the inside of your skull. these prominences can catch very important bloodvessels on the surface of the brain and cause them to tear. this is what causes an epidural hematoma, which most times leads to sudden death. scary stuff.

so as you can see, no helmet can prevent these mechanisms of injury, as the injury occurs inside the skull.

gimmesometruth27

one other thing that i forgot to mention. most concussions occur on the practice field and are caused by their own teammates. this is because collision sport athletes spend much more time in practice and controlled scrimmages than they do in actual competition.

tempo_n_groove

gimmesometruth27 said:

Amongst the Ani said:

Leather helmets could never happen. Too many incidental hits would cause more severe issues than a concussion without a helmet. Think about a guy getting drilled hard (even with proper form) and being pile driven onto the ground with a 265lb linebacker driving through him. The head might pop on the turf like a melon when it bounced off of it. We are about to get cars that drive themselves yet we can't get a better football helmet. Go figure.

the helmet is not the problem. the mechanism of injury for concussion is not normally a direct blow, something that could be prevented by a helmet and facemask. a real concussion mechanism of injury is from the velocity at which someone's head and neck changes directions. the brain floats in cerebrospinal fluid inside the skull. say someone gets a direct blow on the right side of their head. their head and neck are going to absorb that force and move quickly and forcefully to the left. the brain, floating in fluid, will follow suit. the muscles and bony anatomy of the neck will slow down the head movement to the left, but the brain is unrestrained and will keep going at the same rate until it slams against the inside of the skull on the left side of the head. this is called a coup injury. sometimes the force is so great that the brain actually bounces off the inside of the skull and ricochets off the inside of the other side of the skull. this is called a coup/countrecoup injury. those are normally the really bad ones. the brain, like all soft tissue actually will bleed. the really bad ones are coup/countrecoup with an element of rotation. rotation is bad because you have sharp prominences on the inside of your skull. these prominences can catch very important bloodvessels on the surface of the brain and cause them to tear. this is what causes an epidural hematoma, which most times leads to sudden death. scary stuff.

so as you can see, no helmet can prevent these mechanisms of injury, as the injury occurs inside the skull.

Which is why I asked about the leather helmets. Not using your head may make it safer?

There are two things I notice every game, one is the crunch of helmets. Linemen when they lock up crack their heads together. When a defender wraps up to tackle standing up you'll hear that crunch.

2nd thing I've noticed as of late is the helmets coming off of players. I don't remember this happening years ago? Are helmets not fitted properly?

Lastly with the disappearance of kids playing out in the streets are the kids losing interest and is there a loss of toughness? This sounds very agro but I do wonder if we are raising non competitive kids?

gimmesometruth27

tempo_n_groove said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

Amongst the Ani said:

Leather helmets could never happen. Too many incidental hits would cause more severe issues than a concussion without a helmet. Think about a guy getting drilled hard (even with proper form) and being pile driven onto the ground with a 265lb linebacker driving through him. The head might pop on the turf like a melon when it bounced off of it. We are about to get cars that drive themselves yet we can't get a better football helmet. Go figure.

the helmet is not the problem. the mechanism of injury for concussion is not normally a direct blow, something that could be prevented by a helmet and facemask. a real concussion mechanism of injury is from the velocity at which someone's head and neck changes directions. the brain floats in cerebrospinal fluid inside the skull. say someone gets a direct blow on the right side of their head. their head and neck are going to absorb that force and move quickly and forcefully to the left. the brain, floating in fluid, will follow suit. the muscles and bony anatomy of the neck will slow down the head movement to the left, but the brain is unrestrained and will keep going at the same rate until it slams against the inside of the skull on the left side of the head. this is called a coup injury. sometimes the force is so great that the brain actually bounces off the inside of the skull and ricochets off the inside of the other side of the skull. this is called a coup/countrecoup injury. those are normally the really bad ones. the brain, like all soft tissue actually will bleed. the really bad ones are coup/countrecoup with an element of rotation. rotation is bad because you have sharp prominences on the inside of your skull. these prominences can catch very important bloodvessels on the surface of the brain and cause them to tear. this is what causes an epidural hematoma, which most times leads to sudden death. scary stuff.

so as you can see, no helmet can prevent these mechanisms of injury, as the injury occurs inside the skull.

Which is why I asked about the leather helmets. Not using your head may make it safer?

There are two things I notice every game, one is the crunch of helmets. Linemen when they lock up crack their heads together. When a defender wraps up to tackle standing up you'll hear that crunch.

2nd thing I've noticed as of late is the helmets coming off of players. I don't remember this happening years ago? Are helmets not fitted properly?

Lastly with the disappearance of kids playing out in the streets are the kids losing interest and is there a loss of toughness? This sounds very agro but I do wonder if we are raising non competitive kids?

i get what you are asking about using the leather helmets meaning they would not bump heads together. but if you hit shoulders together at a high rate of speed the head and neck are still going to change direction due to momentum changes. it may lessen the severity, but it will not stop the frequency of subconcussive blows, which add up over the course of a career/lifetime.

linemen are supposed to keep their heads up. the crunch you are hearing is most likely the clapping of the cantilever pads on the shoulder pads. the helmet to helmet hits have a low sound. almost a thud sound. the shrill clap you hear come across on tv is usually the shoulder pads.

the helmets coming off players is a new phenomenon. it used to happen in the past, but it happens way more often in the last 5 years. the helmets are supposed to be fit to the head and hair. so many players are wearing underarmor had/headsleeve things under their helmets that when players sweat the helmet slides off. plus most times when helmets are sized on players' heads they are done in the locker room at a steady room temp in the low 70s F. when you get out in the heat of a sunday afternoon, the heat causes the players heads to sweat and the helmets to slightly expand, so they can slide off easier.

i don't think there is a loss of toughness. if anything, there are kids who are more interested in computers and individual sports like golf and tennis. and to be honest, if a kid is not 100% committed to football and sticking it out for a full season, they are less likely to go out for the team. in my experience, watching athletes of all ages, the only peer pressure worse than being called a pussy because you are hurt is being called a pussy because you quit on your team. ya know?