aurora shooter guilty of murder

mickeyrat

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/national_world/2015/07/16/0716-colorado-shooting-trial.html

JimmyV

Death penalty eligible. And death penalty deserving.

mickeyrat

13 hours of deliberations.

Last-12-Exit

Took longer than I expected.

mickeyrat

Last-12-Exit said:

Took longer than I expected.

Well it was 12 counts to consider. I think they did right.

rgambs

mickeyrat said:

Last-12-Exit said:

Took longer than I expected.

Well it was 12 counts to consider. I think they did right.

The big question was his psychological state which is a complicated issue to consider.

mickeyrat

Evidence presented of prep shot that to shit

oftenreading

mickeyrat said:

Evidence presented of prep shot that to shit

How so? Evidence of preparation has little to do when assessing whether someone is psychotic or not. Some people with psychosis are completely disorganized, while others remain well organized but strongly affected by delusions.

Last-12-Exit

Didn't a couple shrinks say this dude was not insane? I smell the electric chair.

oftenreading

^^^^ Some said yes, some said no.

mickeyrat

oftenreading said:

mickeyrat said:

Evidence presented of prep shot that to shit

How so? Evidence of preparation has little to do when assessing whether someone is psychotic or not. Some people with psychosis are completely disorganized, while others remain well organized but strongly affected by delusions.

The level of planning presented at trial suggested he was well in control of his faculties.

Defense presented him as unable to know right from wrong(as reported in the news).

I gathered the detailed note taking suggested otherwise.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

He did his best to appear unfit for sentencing. Just not a very strong actor.

Jason P

To dinosaur island with him.

oftenreading

mickeyrat said:

oftenreading said:

mickeyrat said:

Evidence presented of prep shot that to shit

How so? Evidence of preparation has little to do when assessing whether someone is psychotic or not. Some people with psychosis are completely disorganized, while others remain well organized but strongly affected by delusions.

The level of planning presented at trial suggested he was well in control of his faculties.

Defense presented him as unable to know right from wrong(as reported in the news).

I gathered the detailed note taking suggested otherwise.

As I said, ability to plan has no connection with level of psychosis. It is not only possible but common to meticulously plan and carry out an action that is completely based on delusions.

The legal standard for insanity varies somewhat from state to state but generally includes two factors: (1) ability to comprehend what it is you are actually doing, and (2) ability to understand that it is wrong (whether that means legal wrongfulness or moral wrongfulness depends on how that jurisdiction defines it).

As an example - suppose you develop a delusional belief that there is a conspiracy of aliens masquerading as normal people who mean to kill you and your loved ones. All around you, you find evidence of these aliens - they drive past you in the street, you see them watching your house, you think that when telemarketers call they are really aliens trying to find out if you are home. You take steps to protect yourself; you make your house more secure and arm yourself. You realize that postal workers really come to your house to case the place because they are intend to attack you, so you prepare yourself, go to the post office one day with your guns, and preemptively open fire. You hate to do it because you aren't a violent person, but those aren't people, they're aliens.

Evidence of planning? Yes. Evidence of sanity? No.

mickeyrat

oftenreading said:

mickeyrat said:

oftenreading said:

mickeyrat said:

Evidence presented of prep shot that to shit

How so? Evidence of preparation has little to do when assessing whether someone is psychotic or not. Some people with psychosis are completely disorganized, while others remain well organized but strongly affected by delusions.

The level of planning presented at trial suggested he was well in control of his faculties.

Defense presented him as unable to know right from wrong(as reported in the news).

I gathered the detailed note taking suggested otherwise.

As I said, ability to plan has no connection with level of psychosis. It is not only possible but common to meticulously plan and carry out an action that is completely based on delusions.

The legal standard for insanity varies somewhat from state to state but generally includes two factors: (1) ability to comprehend what it is you are actually doing, and (2) ability to understand that it is wrong (whether that means legal wrongfulness or moral wrongfulness depends on how that jurisdiction defines it).

As an example - suppose you develop a delusional belief that there is a conspiracy of aliens masquerading as normal people who mean to kill you and your loved ones. All around you, you find evidence of these aliens - they drive past you in the street, you see them watching your house, you think that when telemarketers call they are really aliens trying to find out if you are home. You take steps to protect yourself; you make your house more secure and arm yourself. You realize that postal workers really come to your house to case the place because they are intend to attack you, so you prepare yourself, go to the post office one day with your guns, and preemptively open fire. You hate to do it because you aren't a violent person, but those aren't people, they're aliens.

Evidence of planning? Yes. Evidence of sanity? No.

apparently the prosecutions experts were more credible to the jury than the defense expert(s).

I would be interested to read some of the relevant writing ths guy did.

At the end of the day 12 people decided 12 other people would get justice , according to the rule of law. I cant recall hearing of any out of the way rulings or anything other than a straightforward presentation of fact in a court of law. He was found guilty of 12 counts of murder. Now on the the sentencing hearings.

PJfanwillneverleave1

Who cares?
I thought this POS was long forgotten about and rotting away somewhere never to be heard from again.

Amongst the Ani

They posted most of his diary on the internet. He is crazy but was sane at the same time. He picked a midnight showing as he didn't want to kill any kids. He knew murder was wrong and mentions it at least once. At the same time how he went through his logic to get to where he got was super crazy. He was obsessed with the infinity symbol and trying to achieve more life points by killing people. While I am on board that we treat mentally ill people like sh*t I don't care when it comes to this tool. He shoud not be allowed to breathe air with the rest of us.

It is a weird read if you have the time. You normally don't get to see things like this: esquire.com/news-politics/news/a35272/james-holmes-journal/

oftenreading

mickeyrat said:

oftenreading said:

mickeyrat said:

oftenreading said:

mickeyrat said:

Evidence presented of prep shot that to shit

How so? Evidence of preparation has little to do when assessing whether someone is psychotic or not. Some people with psychosis are completely disorganized, while others remain well organized but strongly affected by delusions.

The level of planning presented at trial suggested he was well in control of his faculties.

Defense presented him as unable to know right from wrong(as reported in the news).

I gathered the detailed note taking suggested otherwise.

As I said, ability to plan has no connection with level of psychosis. It is not only possible but common to meticulously plan and carry out an action that is completely based on delusions.

The legal standard for insanity varies somewhat from state to state but generally includes two factors: (1) ability to comprehend what it is you are actually doing, and (2) ability to understand that it is wrong (whether that means legal wrongfulness or moral wrongfulness depends on how that jurisdiction defines it).

As an example - suppose you develop a delusional belief that there is a conspiracy of aliens masquerading as normal people who mean to kill you and your loved ones. All around you, you find evidence of these aliens - they drive past you in the street, you see them watching your house, you think that when telemarketers call they are really aliens trying to find out if you are home. You take steps to protect yourself; you make your house more secure and arm yourself. You realize that postal workers really come to your house to case the place because they are intend to attack you, so you prepare yourself, go to the post office one day with your guns, and preemptively open fire. You hate to do it because you aren't a violent person, but those aren't people, they're aliens.

Evidence of planning? Yes. Evidence of sanity? No.

apparently the prosecutions experts were more credible to the jury than the defense expert(s).

I would be interested to read some of the relevant writing ths guy did.

At the end of the day 12 people decided 12 other people would get justice , according to the rule of law. I cant recall hearing of any out of the way rulings or anything other than a straightforward presentation of fact in a court of law. He was found guilty of 12 counts of murder. Now on the the sentencing hearings.

Oh, I'm not arguing against the finding; I haven't read enough about the evidence either way to have an opinion. I'm just arguing against the common but mistaken belief that ability to plan means that someone doesn't have psychosis.

PJfanwillneverleave1

^^^^
Sounds like you don't quack.

oftenreading

It's my party and I'll quack if I want to.

hedonist

oftenreading said:

It's my party and I'll quack if I want to.

Forgive me - amidst the gravity of this, gotta give it up to you for that up there.

callen

Against DP in every case but wonder if others should be held responsible for inaction. Manslaughter.

PJfanwillneverleave1

For the death penalty in every case grave as this one.
I can't wait to hear the sentence of death for this POS.
Fuck this fucker.

mickeyrat

callen said:

Against DP in every case but wonder if others should be held responsible for inaction. Manslaughter.

Explain?

I am unaware of laws forcing action by 3rd party bystanders. That would be compelling being put in harms way.

Very few outside of military and L.E. have had training for situations such as this. These people were excited about seeing a movie for fucks sake. Expect that was the primary thing on their mind, not the chance some fuck with an agenda of murder would spring up and start shooting. I'd imagine most if not all were in a state of shock or noncomprehension of what was occuring. But you seem to think the general public should be held accountable in some way? Who the fuck are you? Seriously. Are you trained that way?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

callen said:

Against DP in every case but wonder if others should be held responsible for inaction. Manslaughter.

I can only assume you are talking about people who might have had a clue he was going to do this. You cannot be talking of the people getting shot at in the theater.

Even then... this post sounds a bit like excuse making. Instead of, "If only they would have..." I think it's more appropriate to let Holmes own this one.

callen

mickeyrat said:

callen said:

Against DP in every case but wonder if others should be held responsible for inaction. Manslaughter.

Explain?

I am unaware of laws forcing action by 3rd party bystanders. That would be compelling being put in harms way.

Very few outside of military and L.E. have had training for situations such as this. These people were excited about seeing a movie for fucks sake. Expect that was the primary thing on their mind, not the chance some fuck with an agenda of murder would spring up and start shooting. I'd imagine most if not all were in a state of shock or noncomprehension of what was occuring. But you seem to think the general public should be held accountable in some way? Who the fuck are you? Seriously. Are you trained that way?

Not in that way Mickey. Inaction by family members to contact police after seeing warning signs. Not sure if this was the case with this guy. Just thinking of ways to try and stop these things before they get here. Really respect Dr patient confidentiality but can there be a line crossed? Something done on Social media posts? I don't know just thinking out loud. Oh and not further arming the public and god forbid we control guns.

mickeyrat

callen said:

mickeyrat said:

callen said:

Against DP in every case but wonder if others should be held responsible for inaction. Manslaughter.

Explain?

I am unaware of laws forcing action by 3rd party bystanders. That would be compelling being put in harms way.

Very few outside of military and L.E. have had training for situations such as this. These people were excited about seeing a movie for fucks sake. Expect that was the primary thing on their mind, not the chance some fuck with an agenda of murder would spring up and start shooting. I'd imagine most if not all were in a state of shock or noncomprehension of what was occuring. But you seem to think the general public should be held accountable in some way? Who the fuck are you? Seriously. Are you trained that way?

Not in that way Mickey. Inaction by family members to contact police after seeing warning signs. Not sure if this was the case with this guy. Just thinking of ways to try and stop these things before they get here. Really respect Dr patient confidentiality but can there be a line crossed? Something done on Social media posts? I don't know just thinking out loud. Oh and not further arming the public and god forbid we control guns.

ou describe is really a catch-22. In a similar argument you have with DP , not all instances are sinister in nature, innocents will get caught unnecessarily.
. Too easy to monday morning quarterback this shit.

callen

mickeyrat said:

callen said:

mickeyrat said:

callen said:

Against DP in every case but wonder if others should be held responsible for inaction. Manslaughter.

Explain?

I am unaware of laws forcing action by 3rd party bystanders. That would be compelling being put in harms way.

Very few outside of military and L.E. have had training for situations such as this. These people were excited about seeing a movie for fucks sake. Expect that was the primary thing on their mind, not the chance some fuck with an agenda of murder would spring up and start shooting. I'd imagine most if not all were in a state of shock or noncomprehension of what was occuring. But you seem to think the general public should be held accountable in some way? Who the fuck are you? Seriously. Are you trained that way?

Not in that way Mickey. Inaction by family members to contact police after seeing warning signs. Not sure if this was the case with this guy. Just thinking of ways to try and stop these things before they get here. Really respect Dr patient confidentiality but can there be a line crossed? Something done on Social media posts? I don't know just thinking out loud. Oh and not further arming the public and god forbid we control guns.

ou describe is really a catch-22. In a similar argument you have with DP , not all instances are sinister in nature. Too easy to monday morning quaterback this shit.

Right agree. Just thinking out loud.

Now On DP we just eliminate and all problems solved.

oftenreading

callen said:

mickeyrat said:

callen said:

Against DP in every case but wonder if others should be held responsible for inaction. Manslaughter.

Explain?

I am unaware of laws forcing action by 3rd party bystanders. That would be compelling being put in harms way.

Very few outside of military and L.E. have had training for situations such as this. These people were excited about seeing a movie for fucks sake. Expect that was the primary thing on their mind, not the chance some fuck with an agenda of murder would spring up and start shooting. I'd imagine most if not all were in a state of shock or noncomprehension of what was occuring. But you seem to think the general public should be held accountable in some way? Who the fuck are you? Seriously. Are you trained that way?

Not in that way Mickey. Inaction by family members to contact police after seeing warning signs. Not sure if this was the case with this guy. Just thinking of ways to try and stop these things before they get here. Really respect Dr patient confidentiality but can there be a line crossed? Something done on Social media posts? I don't know just thinking out loud. Oh and not further arming the public and god forbid we control guns.

There are already laws governing when doctor-patient confidentiality can be breached (generally based on case law, not legislation). In Canada we have case law that applies across the country but in the US it tends to be state-specific, so I can't speak for this particular state; however, in general it is not just permitted but legally expected for a physician or psychologist to take action if it can be reasonably foreseen that a patient poses a significant risk to the safety of a specific person or identifiable group of people. There doesn't need to be a specific verbal threat made; the risk assessment is broader than that. In this instance, when there didn't appear to be a risk to any particular person, but rather just society in general due to deterioration in mental health, then the more usual action would be involuntary hospitalization for assessment and treatment. Physicians can be, and certainly have been, held legally liable for not taking steps to protect others when the risk was reasonably foreseeable.

callen

oftenreading said:

callen said:

mickeyrat said:

callen said:

Against DP in every case but wonder if others should be held responsible for inaction. Manslaughter.

Explain?

I am unaware of laws forcing action by 3rd party bystanders. That would be compelling being put in harms way.

Very few outside of military and L.E. have had training for situations such as this. These people were excited about seeing a movie for fucks sake. Expect that was the primary thing on their mind, not the chance some fuck with an agenda of murder would spring up and start shooting. I'd imagine most if not all were in a state of shock or noncomprehension of what was occuring. But you seem to think the general public should be held accountable in some way? Who the fuck are you? Seriously. Are you trained that way?

Not in that way Mickey. Inaction by family members to contact police after seeing warning signs. Not sure if this was the case with this guy. Just thinking of ways to try and stop these things before they get here. Really respect Dr patient confidentiality but can there be a line crossed? Something done on Social media posts? I don't know just thinking out loud. Oh and not further arming the public and god forbid we control guns.

There are already laws governing when doctor-patient confidentiality can be breached (generally based on case law, not legislation). In Canada we have case law that applies across the country but in the US it tends to be state-specific, so I can't speak for this particular state; however, in general it is not just permitted but legally expected for a physician or psychologist to take action if it can be reasonably foreseen that a patient poses a significant risk to the safety of a specific person or identifiable group of people. There doesn't need to be a specific verbal threat made; the risk assessment is broader than that. In this instance, when there didn't appear to be a risk to any particular person, but rather just society in general due to deterioration in mental health, then the more usual action would be involuntary hospitalization for assessment and treatment. Physicians can be, and certainly have been, held legally liable for not taking steps to protect others when the risk was reasonably foreseeable.

Thanks good info

MayDay10

isnt this the guy who was acting on a fantasy that he was The Joker?