In third world countries if you told people they could get ahead by hard work and good choices they would either give you a funny look or think, "Yeah, maybe I can eat today!"
This takes me back to the original question. It's unfathomable to me that the small percentage of people in this world with the majority of the power and the wealth aren't strongly focused on doing what it takes to bring stability in the world, both socially, economically and most importantly, environmentally. Instead, to a great degree, we have wars, starvation and an environment that may become inhospitable in many or perhaps all regions for human habitation. This doesn't make sense to me.
Can I ask why you feel it's unfathomable? Because I think it's typical. The story of Mr. Scrooge and seeing the error in his greedy ways, coming to terms with it and promising to be better to his fellow human seems to just be a nice story. Maybe it happens to a few, but it doesn't really happen. Of course it doesn't make sense to you, you are a caring and empathic person, you don't identify with those who place greed ahead of everything else.
Not to mention that in our capitalistic nation, the idea of taking care of each other - socialism - is a dirty word.
But not to me. I know we live in greedy times, so I'm going to give however I can. Because one person can make a difference and you alone can too. Don't let the world get you down, just do what you can to make a difference on a personal level. Because that's great in itself.
that's one thing I've always found interesting.......the amount of people, and I will say this cautiously, USUALLY, right wingers/republicans, that have an issue with living in a socialist society, with regards to obamacare, etc. Yet, how many services are social in nature already? too many to count.
what I really think is that they aren't so afraid of socialism at its core, they just don't understand it. and if it hadn't been part of the acronym for USSR, they wouldn't be so afraid of it. LOL. I get such a laugh out of people calling me a "commie" for thinking that "health care for all" is a good idea. LOL.
I'd have a big problem living under a socialist /communist society.No thank you.
but socialism isn't the same as communism. communism bastardizes it and takes it to an EXTREME. I don't think anyone would like to live in a communist society.
If tickets went on sale for a one off Zeppelin show,or. A one off Temple of the Dog full show.I could see value in dumping a premium on those tickets. It's really about what the buyer perceives as value.If I'm going to already spend a lot of cash on plane tix,hotel,rent a car,over priced merch,why wouldn't I want to pay the extra for sweet once in a lifetime seats or vip access to make the experience that much more special?
If you go to festivals you know ,just the bathroom access,Bars and shade are worth it for vip upgrades.Again what's the experience and memory worth.
Capitalism has it's share of problems just like any other system, socialism included. Folks get by just fine in "socialist" countries across the world. Of course, they are only considered socialist to the laissez faire capitalists in America, the home of corporations with personhood rights and politicians who work for them.
What's wrong with capitalism - freedom to fail or succeed - and looking out for our fellow man as well? It's not either/or, black/white.
Dirty words are made that by the context in which they're used.
NOTHING is wrong with capatitalism.You said it all above.
NOTHING??? Come on now, that's a bit extreme.
There may some things that need tweaking with capitalism.Ill give you that. But just look at the mess in Venezaula,Cuba and some others that practice socialized living.Not good at all
What's wrong with capitalism - freedom to fail or succeed - and looking out for our fellow man as well? It's not either/or, black/white.
Dirty words are made that by the context in which they're used.
NOTHING is wrong with capatitalism.You said it all above.
NOTHING??? Come on now, that's a bit extreme.
There may some things that need tweaking with capitalism.Ill give you that. But just look at the mess in Venezaula,Cuba and some others that practice socialized living.Not good at all
As with anything there needs to be a middle ground. Regarding Cuba, now that Raul has allowed people to own their houses and businesses the country is witnessing an economic surge. And it wasn't really socialism that hurt Cuba, it was a combination of Fidel's control of the people coupled with the US embargo.
"allowed people to own their houses and businesses" - goodness, that sounds like something from another strange(r?) era.
Just reading over on the Porch about the Pete Townshend/Ed charity deal coming up, the ticket prices. Makes me wonder too about the various political fundraising events at $XX,XXX a seat. Strikes me as strange that these expenses are quite alright but others deemed greedy.
Who makes that decision of what is worthwhile, of who is worthwhile? I'd rather draw my own line.
Why is the only option capitalism or socialism? What about localism? What about working together as a community to achieve common goals? The heart of capitalism is profit and that is achieved through competition. I think it is to entirely untrue to say that 'if you work hard, you'll get ahead.' Aren't there advantages we are given or born with that contribute to our (material) success? And, really, isn't material success what we really mean when we talk about the benefits of capitalism?
Globalization is a huge part of the problem IMO. The only way to be a (materially) successful person/country/corporation is to participate in the global economy and that is fully rooted in capitalism.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
"allowed people to own their houses and businesses" - goodness, that sounds like something from another strange(r?) era.
Just reading over on the Porch about the Pete Townshend/Ed charity deal coming up, the ticket prices. Makes me wonder too about the various political fundraising events at $XX,XXX a seat. Strikes me as strange that these expenses are quite alright but others deemed greedy.
Who makes that decision of what is worthwhile, of who is worthwhile? I'd rather draw my own line.
If it is a cause or party you support then it is perceived as having value.If you are opposed to the same you will look at it as a waste.
Why is the only option capitalism or socialism? What about localism? What about working together as a community to achieve common goals? The heart of capitalism is profit and that is achieved through competition. I think it is to entirely untrue to say that 'if you work hard, you'll get ahead.' Aren't there advantages we are given or born with that contribute to our (material) success? And, really, isn't material success what we really mean when we talk about the benefits of capitalism?
Globalization is a huge part of the problem IMO. The only way to be a (materially) successful person/country/corporation is to participate in the global economy and that is fully rooted in capitalism.
Peace of mind isn't materialistic Riotgrl.Sometimes that is the by product.
Why is the only option capitalism or socialism? What about localism? What about working together as a community to achieve common goals? The heart of capitalism is profit and that is achieved through competition. I think it is to entirely untrue to say that 'if you work hard, you'll get ahead.' Aren't there advantages we are given or born with that contribute to our (material) success? And, really, isn't material success what we really mean when we talk about the benefits of capitalism?
Globalization is a huge part of the problem IMO. The only way to be a (materially) successful person/country/corporation is to participate in the global economy and that is fully rooted in capitalism.
Peace of mind isn't materialistic Riotgrl.Sometimes that is the by product.
True but peace of mind is might be better achieved at the local level. I'd love to see the local eating movement extend to other areas of our lives!
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
Why is the only option capitalism or socialism? What about localism? What about working together as a community to achieve common goals? The heart of capitalism is profit and that is achieved through competition. I think it is to entirely untrue to say that 'if you work hard, you'll get ahead.' Aren't there advantages we are given or born with that contribute to our (material) success? And, really, isn't material success what we really mean when we talk about the benefits of capitalism?
Globalization is a huge part of the problem IMO. The only way to be a (materially) successful person/country/corporation is to participate in the global economy and that is fully rooted in capitalism.
Peace of mind isn't materialistic Riotgrl.Sometimes that is the by product.
Very true - and riotgrl, that's what I spoke to earlier; there's a middle common-sense ground to be found...that I wish would be found.
Why is the only option capitalism or socialism? What about localism? What about working together as a community to achieve common goals? The heart of capitalism is profit and that is achieved through competition. I think it is to entirely untrue to say that 'if you work hard, you'll get ahead.' Aren't there advantages we are given or born with that contribute to our (material) success? And, really, isn't material success what we really mean when we talk about the benefits of capitalism?
Globalization is a huge part of the problem IMO. The only way to be a (materially) successful person/country/corporation is to participate in the global economy and that is fully rooted in capitalism.
Peace of mind isn't materialistic Riotgrl.Sometimes that is the by product.
Very true - and riotgrl, that's what I spoke to earlier; there's a middle common-sense ground to be found...that I wish would be found.
I want to believe that's true and maybe amongst the people here that could be true. Color me cynical but I think the very foundations of capitalism are founded on greed. Good people in the system, yes, but the system as a whole is broken and bound to collapse at some point. I believe that there are good people doing good things but my cynicism is specifically directed towards capitalism.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
Hmm… Why does the power of wealth always trump doing what makes sense?
Way to derail… however, I do feel the foundation of this question lies in greed and capitalism. So we're not too far off base, but I've been following and it's constantly derailing…
Why is money more important than maintaining the health of our planet? Or making it more sustainable on a global scale? Why is money more important that 3rd world civilians? Why is it more important than taking care of each other? Why is it more important that the rich must be able to get richer while there are many living in poverty?
When will we all agree that it is in our best interest as a civilization to take care of everyone and not our damn investments, ROIs and getting richer?
Hmm… Why does the power of wealth always trump doing what makes sense?
Way to derail… however, I do feel the foundation of this question lies in greed and capitalism. So we're not too far off base, but I've been following and it's constantly derailing…
Why is money more important than maintaining the health of our planet? Or making it more sustainable on a global scale? Why is money more important that 3rd world civilians? Why is it more important than taking care of each other? Why is it more important that the rich must be able to get richer while there are many living in poverty?
When will we all agree that it is in our best interest as a civilization to take care of everyone and not our damn investments, ROIs and getting richer?
Yikes! I apologize and expect some of the other posters in this thread to do so as well.
I thought this had come to a very interesting (not to mention civil and worthwhile) discussion vs one of being incessantly off-topic. Some great points made all around, especially the acknowledgement that shades of gray can and do exist.
It's your thread though, so your call, and again I'm sorry.
it makes the most sense to those with the most power and money to hold on to that power and money.
people with power look out for their own interests in most cases.
I'm not one with power (the type of which I think most are referring to here), but I still put the interests of myself and my husband - our life, well-being - first and foremost.
it makes the most sense to those with the most power and money to hold on to that power and money.
people with power look out for their own interests in most cases.
I'm not one with power (the type of which I think most are referring to here), but I still put the interests of myself and my husband - our life, well-being - first and foremost.
Is that wrong?
are you a koch brother? are you a lobbiest for aipac? are you a member of the oil or gun lobby?
if you answer yes, you are wrong.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
it makes the most sense to those with the most power and money to hold on to that power and money.
people with power look out for their own interests in most cases.
I'm not one with power (the type of which I think most are referring to here), but I still put the interests of myself and my husband - our life, well-being - first and foremost.
Is that wrong?
are you a koch brother? are you a lobbiest for aipac? are you a member of the oil or gun lobby?
if you answer yes, you are wrong.
Trying to point out that the circle of defining wealth and power has many ripples.
A is OK; B, not so much. C, pending a decision.
What of other areas in which those of wealth choose to put their attention and funds? I don't ever want to become so cynical to become blind to the difference many, some, a few, or even one can make.
it makes the most sense to those with the most power and money to hold on to that power and money.
people with power look out for their own interests in most cases.
I'm not one with power (the type of which I think most are referring to here), but I still put the interests of myself and my husband - our life, well-being - first and foremost.
Is that wrong?
are you a koch brother? are you a lobbiest for aipac? are you a member of the oil or gun lobby?
if you answer yes, you are wrong.
Trying to point out that the circle of defining wealth and power has many ripples.
A is OK; B, not so much. C, pending a decision.
What of other areas in which those of wealth choose to put their attention and funds? I don't ever want to become so cynical to become blind to the difference many, some, a few, or even one can make.
it is a pretty simple issue to me.
if you are giving money to people to do things like harm our environment you are wrong.
if you are buying politicians who are in favor of corporations, in favor of big banks, in favor of wall street at the expense of the common person, and in denial of the dangers of carbon emissions that put billions of lives at risk, you are wrong.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Yes - but "wrong" isn't as sliced-and-diced as made out to be. Sure those are great parameters but what about others that you may not agree with?
Actions have an effect and to put the consequences solely and always on power and bank accounts is somewhat misguided though I honestly appreciate the intent in raising the topic.
I just caught a story on the news of a 65-year-old woman with thirteen children now carrying quadruplets after many attempts at IVF. Because her youngest said she'd love to have another baby in the family. Really...the fuck?
This kind of shit has an effect too; all I ask is to not lose sight of individual actions, for better or worse, and money aside.
Hmm… Why does the power of wealth always trump doing what makes sense?
Way to derail… however, I do feel the foundation of this question lies in greed and capitalism. So we're not too far off base, but I've been following and it's constantly derailing…
Why is money more important than maintaining the health of our planet? Or making it more sustainable on a global scale? Why is money more important that 3rd world civilians? Why is it more important than taking care of each other? Why is it more important that the rich must be able to get richer while there are many living in poverty?
When will we all agree that it is in our best interest as a civilization to take care of everyone and not our damn investments, ROIs and getting richer?
actually, it was an interesting, respectful, and on-topic discussion without pretension or any condescension.
I'm not sure how on-topic this has all been. What I'm mostly seeing here, after being gone all day what I'm mostly seeing here is posts about expensive sporting event tickets and an argument about weather or not capitalism is the problem.
The problem, as I see it and as is implied by the premise of this thread, is that people with the greatest amount of wealth and power are more caught up in their accumulation of power and wealth than they are in doing what makes sense which (at least the way I see it) would be to start getting down to the work of reducing the negative human impact on the environment and find some way to create better social harmony. And why this isn't happening is puzzling to me.
I saw a friend today who is fascinated by conspiracy theories and I asked her what she thought of all this. She believes that the planet is going to be made uninhabitable, that the powers that be are planning to exterminate most of us and then go underground and live in these big underground places that are going to be connect from coast to coast in the U.S. as well as throughout Russia by underground railways systems. She also believes there are giant's held captive in remote corners of the Grand Canyon. She also happens to be one of my best friends so go easy here.
Now of course I don't buy any of that but it makes about as much sense as what is happening which is that the people with the most money and power seem oblivious to the detrimental impact humans are having on environment, the idea that our species has reached the critical point as described by ecological sciences as "carrying capacity", the fact that we use up our annual allotment of resources each year by mid-August, that nuclear annihilation will only make cockroaches happy, that endless war has no purpose and that widespread social unrest will only lead to more chaos and unproductive conflict.
So who is more out of touch, my friend, me, or the majority of wealthy and powerful people who seem to be ignoring these problems? I'd say the latter, myself.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
We took a much needed day off today, even forgoing the opportunity to see my beloved Replacements in San Francisco, and took a walk along Folsom Lake to enjoy the lupines that in in full bloom this time of year. There is one little ravine leading into a small cove along the shore of the lake (a reservoir, actually) that the walk winds through that is lush and green this time of year and has a seasonal creek that runs through it down into the lake. I was thinking about this thread much of the day and as I emerged from this absolutely stunning little remnant of beautiful California foothills land, the haze of polluted sky and the view of hills already becoming parched came back into focus I felt like I was in a Twilight Zone where this one beautiful place was all that remained in a world turned to dust and ruin.
Yes, this sounds like overly emotive hyperbole and it really was a fine day but for a few seconds I truly felt like we were standing on the brink of the apocalypse. We are foolish to let this world go to ruin.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Hmm… Why does the power of wealth always trump doing what makes sense?
Way to derail… however, I do feel the foundation of this question lies in greed and capitalism. So we're not too far off base, but I've been following and it's constantly derailing…
Why is money more important than maintaining the health of our planet? Or making it more sustainable on a global scale? Why is money more important that 3rd world civilians? Why is it more important than taking care of each other? Why is it more important that the rich must be able to get richer while there are many living in poverty?
When will we all agree that it is in our best interest as a civilization to take care of everyone and not our damn investments, ROIs and getting richer?
actually, it was an interesting, respectful, and on-topic discussion without pretension or any condescension.
Until now.
Nice personal dig there. And for what? Asking questions and reminding people that the thread has derailed a lot?
What's wrong with capitalism - freedom to fail or succeed - and looking out for our fellow man as well? It's not either/or, black/white.
Dirty words are made that by the context in which they're used.
NOTHING is wrong with capatitalism.You said it all above.
NOTHING??? Come on now, that's a bit extreme.
and it's not a level playing field no matter how much it comforts us to think so. Additionally some that think they struggled to succeed don't realize the benefits they actually receive.
Why is the only option capitalism or socialism? What about localism? What about working together as a community to achieve common goals? The heart of capitalism is profit and that is achieved through competition. I think it is to entirely untrue to say that 'if you work hard, you'll get ahead.' Aren't there advantages we are given or born with that contribute to our (material) success? And, really, isn't material success what we really mean when we talk about the benefits of capitalism?
Globalization is a huge part of the problem IMO. The only way to be a (materially) successful person/country/corporation is to participate in the global economy and that is fully rooted in capitalism.
Peace of mind isn't materialistic Riotgrl.Sometimes that is the by product.
True but peace of mind is might be better achieved at the local level. I'd love to see the local eating movement extend to other areas of our lives!
I'd get behind that.Keep it community based.Who knows the needs of a community better then themselves.
it makes the most sense to those with the most power and money to hold on to that power and money.
people with power look out for their own interests in most cases.
I'm not one with power (the type of which I think most are referring to here), but I still put the interests of myself and my husband - our life, well-being - first and foremost.
I think some of you need to be careful to not lump wealth with neglect of benevolence.Brian your statement above is basically calls out all the mega rich as only being concerned with earning more money. Maybe that is the case with some ,but who are we to judge without knowing them as individuals?
This us vs them shit is kinda stupid.We all have good and bad and do what we can based on our resources. Take Oprah for example.She has bukoo bucks,billions.Does she only worry about her empire and bottom line or does she put her money where her mouth is building schools and infrastructure in Africa and else where.Or does she not count because she backs Obama? What about Gates?See not so cut and dry.How about Buffet or Allen? All do and give so very much.What makes us better then them?
Gimme,How much $$ did the Koch brothers and there companies or holdings give toward charities or worthy causes.I don't know the answer,but you should if your going to make those statements.I bet it's a fucking shitload.So I ask you,would you rather have the evil empire fund billions in help for those that need,while still profiting,or would we be better off without them and their charitable "blood" money?
And BSL,the flow of Ideas and opinions is what makes a convo flow.Everything discussed is a tangent to the original thought process.Again,relax a bit,let it unfold.It will be ok.
Comments
Come on now, that's a bit extreme.
www.headstonesband.com
www.headstonesband.com
Folks get by just fine in "socialist" countries across the world.
Of course, they are only considered socialist to the laissez faire capitalists in America, the home of corporations with personhood rights and politicians who work for them.
www.headstonesband.com
But just look at the mess in Venezaula,Cuba and some others that practice socialized living.Not good at all
And it wasn't really socialism that hurt Cuba, it was a combination of Fidel's control of the people coupled with the US embargo.
Just reading over on the Porch about the Pete Townshend/Ed charity deal coming up, the ticket prices. Makes me wonder too about the various political fundraising events at $XX,XXX a seat. Strikes me as strange that these expenses are quite alright but others deemed greedy.
Who makes that decision of what is worthwhile, of who is worthwhile? I'd rather draw my own line.
Globalization is a huge part of the problem IMO. The only way to be a (materially) successful person/country/corporation is to participate in the global economy and that is fully rooted in capitalism.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
Way to derail… however, I do feel the foundation of this question lies in greed and capitalism. So we're not too far off base, but I've been following and it's constantly derailing…
Why is money more important than maintaining the health of our planet? Or making it more sustainable on a global scale? Why is money more important that 3rd world civilians? Why is it more important than taking care of each other? Why is it more important that the rich must be able to get richer while there are many living in poverty?
When will we all agree that it is in our best interest as a civilization to take care of everyone and not our damn investments, ROIs and getting richer?
I thought this had come to a very interesting (not to mention civil and worthwhile) discussion vs one of being incessantly off-topic. Some great points made all around, especially the acknowledgement that shades of gray can and do exist.
It's your thread though, so your call, and again I'm sorry.
it makes the most sense to those with the most power and money to hold on to that power and money.
people with power look out for their own interests in most cases.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Is that wrong?
are you a lobbiest for aipac?
are you a member of the oil or gun lobby?
if you answer yes, you are wrong.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
A is OK; B, not so much. C, pending a decision.
What of other areas in which those of wealth choose to put their attention and funds? I don't ever want to become so cynical to become blind to the difference many, some, a few, or even one can make.
if you are giving money to people to do things like harm our environment you are wrong.
if you are buying politicians who are in favor of corporations, in favor of big banks, in favor of wall street at the expense of the common person, and in denial of the dangers of carbon emissions that put billions of lives at risk, you are wrong.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Actions have an effect and to put the consequences solely and always on power and bank accounts is somewhat misguided though I honestly appreciate the intent in raising the topic.
I just caught a story on the news of a 65-year-old woman with thirteen children now carrying quadruplets after many attempts at IVF. Because her youngest said she'd love to have another baby in the family. Really...the fuck?
This kind of shit has an effect too; all I ask is to not lose sight of individual actions, for better or worse, and money aside.
Until now.
www.headstonesband.com
The problem, as I see it and as is implied by the premise of this thread, is that people with the greatest amount of wealth and power are more caught up in their accumulation of power and wealth than they are in doing what makes sense which (at least the way I see it) would be to start getting down to the work of reducing the negative human impact on the environment and find some way to create better social harmony. And why this isn't happening is puzzling to me.
I saw a friend today who is fascinated by conspiracy theories and I asked her what she thought of all this. She believes that the planet is going to be made uninhabitable, that the powers that be are planning to exterminate most of us and then go underground and live in these big underground places that are going to be connect from coast to coast in the U.S. as well as throughout Russia by underground railways systems. She also believes there are giant's held captive in remote corners of the Grand Canyon. She also happens to be one of my best friends so go easy here.
Now of course I don't buy any of that but it makes about as much sense as what is happening which is that the people with the most money and power seem oblivious to the detrimental impact humans are having on environment, the idea that our species has reached the critical point as described by ecological sciences as "carrying capacity", the fact that we use up our annual allotment of resources each year by mid-August, that nuclear annihilation will only make cockroaches happy, that endless war has no purpose and that widespread social unrest will only lead to more chaos and unproductive conflict.
So who is more out of touch, my friend, me, or the majority of wealthy and powerful people who seem to be ignoring these problems? I'd say the latter, myself.
Yes, this sounds like overly emotive hyperbole and it really was a fine day but for a few seconds I truly felt like we were standing on the brink of the apocalypse. We are foolish to let this world go to ruin.
Maybe that is the case with some ,but who are we to judge without knowing them as individuals?
This us vs them shit is kinda stupid.We all have good and bad and do what we can based on our resources.
Take Oprah for example.She has bukoo bucks,billions.Does she only worry about her empire and bottom line or does she put her money where her mouth is building schools and infrastructure in Africa and else where.Or does she not count because she backs Obama?
What about Gates?See not so cut and dry.How about Buffet or Allen? All do and give so very much.What makes us better then them?
Gimme,How much $$ did the Koch brothers and there companies or holdings give toward charities or worthy causes.I don't know the answer,but you should if your going to make those statements.I bet it's a fucking shitload.So I ask you,would you rather have the evil empire fund billions in help for those that need,while still profiting,or would we be better off without them and their charitable "blood" money?
And BSL,the flow of Ideas and opinions is what makes a convo flow.Everything discussed is a tangent to the original thought process.Again,relax a bit,let it unfold.It will be ok.