The wonderful former compassionate conservative president of the US allowed NK to attain nuclear weapons and didn't do a thing about it. Except to name them part of the Axis of Evil. Neither did Canada as I recall. What makes Iran's acquiring nuclear weapons different?
And America used chemical weapons in Vietnam with blatant disregard. If the world attacked America the way America attacks the world, based on the pretences America has given for said attacks - there would be no America left.
Easy now. Do you know how many guns there are in the US and the number of people owning them?
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,721
Ah yes. another interesting debate on "liberal" vs "conservative". Of course we all know these never reach resolution. And besides, the labels change faces.
Remember, once upon a time conservative meant "to conserve" which meant your were a conservationist. How many conservatives today consider themselves conservationist?
The term "liberal" originally meant a worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality. Now the word liberty is used to mean conservative and liberals are viewed in a more broad sense to be either emo or hippy or green freaks or God knows what.
But what are we really after? To prove our label is better than others? Or to do what makes sense to make the world a better, more livable place.
The way I see it is that the environment is being trashed and if we don't fix what we humans do to stop our negative impact we will wipe ourselves and wipe many other species out. Wars rage on over religious differences and resources and if we don't find a better way to resolve things, we wipe ourselves out. Racism is still a problem among many whites but most of the world is non-white. Racism in inherently wrong but if for no other reason, if we don't stop being racist, whites will get themselves wiped out. Social and economic inequality always results in conflict which leads to large numbers of people getting wiped out.
So if all of that is true, in general and based on current concepts of the labels, liberals tend to want to do things that will help preserve our species and our planet and conservatives in general support things that are more likely to get us wiped out. But rather than labels, can we just do what makes sense? Get rid of the labels, and for the sake of saving ourselves and for the sake of letting other life on earth continue on, lets do what makes sense.
Overly simplified and generalized as that all might be, it's my take and I stand by it.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
So, BS, please explain to us the faults in the Iranian view:
But to seal the anticipated nuclear deal, more political will is required. The Iranian people have shown their resolve by choosing to engage with dignity. It is time for the United States and its Western allies to make the choice between cooperation and confrontation, between negotiations and grandstanding, and between agreement and coercion.
With courageous leadership and the audacity to make the right decisions, we can and should put this manufactured crisis to rest and move on to much more important work. The wider Persian Gulf region is in turmoil. It is not a question of governments rising and falling: the social, cultural and religious fabrics of entire countries are being torn to shreds.
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
While we rage in this threat, about a possible next war in the middle east. People are drowning in the Mediterranean Sea. Most of them are fugitives out of Syria. This year already more than 1500 men, women and children have drowned as a fugitive, trying to reach Europe. More than half of the numbers already from the drowning in entire 2014. Instead of helping them, the EU has shut down its humanitarian assistance program, and is trying to close the borders even further. Because if we pick up every floater, we encourage the fugitives to come to Europe. The outrage about the drownings isn't about the victims, but about the survivors, and what they will cost us.... European Counsel this evening: "No extra rescue boats, no pledged for extra resettlement, but a fast track expulsion policy..." When do we stop being so selfishness? When do we finally start to act human? I'm deeply ashamed, about being European right now.
Luckily some friends of mine in European and National Parliament are trying to change the view on this subject, and I will do everything in my power to support them! If we keep on acting only out of economic greed sooner or later we will have to pay a stiff price, for our inhuman behavior!
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
That's just it BS. Thats why this place is so chill. You can sincerely complement a fellow train member while simultaneously arguing about WMDs, And middle Eastern Nuclear capabilities.
Sounds about right.Carry on.
So true. It's actually my babies that turned me rightward. Curious to see if gambs has a similar experience.
Hahaha, unreal
As Churchill (allegedly) said: "If you're not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at 40 you have no brain."
I don't know about this one... Maybe for most, no...some people this is truth, but certainly not for all of us... I've been left wing political invested all my life... so were my parents. I rather have no brain, than no heart. I've been a mother for fifteen years by now, and just turned 40, but I've never had fear or greed leed my political views, and I probable never will be... but we'll see...
Well...the first problem is that you think conservative views are led by "fear and greed". Once you realize they are led by liberty and nothing else the change is much easier. You also must recognize that not all conservatives are the same. I am quite socially liberal with the caveat that I don't "fear" the social conservatives around me.
What Liberty? The liberty to hate? The liberty to be so convinced about your own world view, that you call everyone who disagrees with you, naive or brainwashed? I also strongly belief in my own worldview, but I don't belief it is the only right worldview, it only fits best for me. I try to stay open-minded for different worldviews. With the right argumentation, I might be convinced, of a different view, but so far you didn't give any arguments that give me any reason to question my own... Apparently neither did I give you any to change yours. However, what strikes me, is that in my post i try to ask you a lot of questions, which you seem to avoid. To bad, because if you don't answer them, i don't think you will ever be able to convince me...
Please. Everyone on here makes these posts about me and I answer as many people as I can. I looked back pretty briefly and I actually don't see a question from you...a lot of commentary for sure but no questions. If you come with a real question I'll answer it...if you come with barbrains commentary I'll probably hit the ignore button.
That's just it BS. Thats why this place is so chill. You can sincerely complement a fellow train member while simultaneously arguing about WMDs, And middle Eastern Nuclear capabilities.
Sounds about right.Carry on.
So true. It's actually my babies that turned me rightward. Curious to see if gambs has a similar experience.
Hahaha, unreal
As Churchill (allegedly) said: "If you're not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at 40 you have no brain."
I don't know about this one... Maybe for most, no...some people this is truth, but certainly not for all of us... I've been left wing political invested all my life... so were my parents. I rather have no brain, than no heart. I've been a mother for fifteen years by now, and just turned 40, but I've never had fear or greed leed my political views, and I probable never will be... but we'll see...
Yeah, it's a clever quote but let's see, are there any brains here?
-Leonard Bernstein -Warren Buffett -Noam Chomsky -Stephen Colbert -Benjamin Franklin -Arianna Huffington -Robert Kennedy -Norman Mailer -Bill Moyers -Michael Pollan -John Stewart Eddie V-v-v...aww, what's his name? -Elizabeth Warren
I'm sure I must have missed a few (billion).
They are all just motivated by their financial interest to be liberal
So conservatives are motivated by freedom alone and liberals are motivated by financial interest? That is pretty twisted. Sometimes I wonder what world you live in.
My comment was full sarcasm. Conservatives are accused of acting in their financial interests all the time...why can't it apply to liberals?
That's just it BS. Thats why this place is so chill. You can sincerely complement a fellow train member while simultaneously arguing about WMDs, And middle Eastern Nuclear capabilities.
Sounds about right.Carry on.
So true. It's actually my babies that turned me rightward. Curious to see if gambs has a similar experience.
Hahaha, unreal
As Churchill (allegedly) said: "If you're not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at 40 you have no brain."
I don't know about this one... Maybe for most, no...some people this is truth, but certainly not for all of us... I've been left wing political invested all my life... so were my parents. I rather have no brain, than no heart. I've been a mother for fifteen years by now, and just turned 40, but I've never had fear or greed leed my political views, and I probable never will be... but we'll see...
Well...the first problem is that you think conservative views are led by "fear and greed". Once you realize they are led by liberty and nothing else the change is much easier. You also must recognize that not all conservatives are the same. I am quite socially liberal with the caveat that I don't "fear" the social conservatives around me.
This IS delusional! The wing that tries to deregulate banks and wage wars for profit, the wing that fears change, sows constant fear about the "enemies" and tries to end and prevent freedoms in minorities...this is about freedom? you are nutso.
If you are socially liberal then you aren't a true conservative, your a moderate with chickenhawk tendancies.
I personally feel the conservative position is to stay out of people's homes/bedrooms etc. Maybe this makes me more of a domestic libertarian with a very hawkish view on foreign policy...who really cares? The chickenhawk label is just childish in a society that believes in civilian control of the military.
I'm advocating for victory which might require a re-invasion of Iraq to surge levels. The surge was a success, the coalition can do it again and restore the peace to 2009-10 levels.
I am not advocating for the invasion or even the bombing of Iran. I said this earlier but apparently all of your reading skills are below poor. With respect to Iran I would end current negotiations as the Iranians have refused to move close enough to our desired position on non-proliferation. I would tighten international sanctions on anyone who does business or banks with the regime. I would make any Iranian militia present in Iraq, Yemen and possibly Syria fair game for attack. I would institute a massive naval blockade on Iran in order to make sure they don't receive or deliver any military supplies. I would fund and support the internal green movement in any way possible. I would do this all vocally and unapologetically as we (the west) represent what is good and their regime does not. Anyone who tries to equate the evils of our societies is not just wrong but is also a fool. With this kind of pressure we will hopefully encourage the internal Iranian opposition to force out the Mullahs.
In exchange for our pressure on Iran the Sunni states will have to crush the radicals among them be it ISIS, Al Qaeda, etc. and will have to be prepared to accept a future with a large moderate and strong Shia presence in the region.
As far as Palestine is concerned I would support the Palestinian Authority in everyway possible while aligning with Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Jordan etc in ending Hamas. Israel will be brought to the table and will be forced to make concessions following the defeat of Hamas. The PA wants a free Palestine and the end of Hamas. We will help them achieve both.
This is leadership. It will cost us plenty in both money and blood. The alternative is further regional collapse, genocide, terrorism and probably nuclear war. We are in for dark days no matter what. Shouldn't we at least try to control them?
What is the cost of this fantasy victory? In lives? In dollars? In failed relations around the world? Who else is ponying up? Canadian dollars I might add? In case you haven't noticed, the last ME debacle cost us a trillion plus and well the $17 trillion in debt has gotten the republicans gun shy about spending money or raising taxes. So, how much would you like to see Canada spend to prevent Iran from getting a bomb? Please spare me the Condi Rice mushroom cloud reference as well.
The costs in dollars and lives will be high. There is no denying this. I just happen to believe that inaction will cost us all more. Lives are being lost now.
As far as my statement on nuclear war it appears this needs to be better explained to you. Saudi Arabia is already exploring obtaining nuclear weapons, neighbouring states are exploring getting nuclear weapons. Yes other countries have them as well but we are moving to a point where more, for a lack of a better term, unstable states are going to pursue this technology. The Sunni-Shia divide is real and growing and extremist elements in the region are rising. We already see chemical weapons being used in Syria with blatant disregard. Over the long term nuclear weapons in the hands of unstable regimes is something everyone should be concerned about.
You still didn't answer the questions. What is high to you may be low to me and vice versa. Do you really think that a region so full of instability is going to have their shit together to attain nuclear weapons? And when will that be? Tomorrow? 6 months? A year maybe?
You seem to lack an understanding of the technical skill, resources and skill needed to acquire nuclear weapons. Unless you think NK is exporting suitcase bombs to the drug cartels who are leaving them with the headless bodies in the desert by ISIS training camps.
Drilling for fear keeps the job simple.
I do the best I can with the civilian knowledge I have. Am I privy to intelligence estimates and government cost analysis? Of course not. If we all need an expertise to comment on here then we might as well shut down the forum. If Pakistan and North Korea can get nukes then Iran and Saudi can get one easy...timeline will depend on how much help they get.
I wasn't born on third but I most definitely hit a triple.
The wonderful former compassionate conservative president of the US allowed NK to attain nuclear weapons and didn't do a thing about it. Except to name them part of the Axis of Evil. Neither did Canada as I recall. What makes Iran's acquiring nuclear weapons different?
It's not different. It's equally lousy. I can't believe you think because North Korea got one we should just let Iran get one? Is this an argument?
The wonderful former compassionate conservative president of the US allowed NK to attain nuclear weapons and didn't do a thing about it. Except to name them part of the Axis of Evil. Neither did Canada as I recall. What makes Iran's acquiring nuclear weapons different?
And America used chemical weapons in Vietnam with blatant disregard. If the world attacked America the way America attacks the world, based on the pretences America has given for said attacks - there would be no America left.
Yes. America has committed past sins...some horrible one. Does this commit you now to a life of inaction?
Ah yes. another interesting debate on "liberal" vs "conservative". Of course we all know these never reach resolution. And besides, the labels change faces.
Remember, once upon a time conservative meant "to conserve" which meant your were a conservationist. How many conservatives today consider themselves conservationist?
The term "liberal" originally meant a worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality. Now the word liberty is used to mean conservative and liberals are viewed in a more broad sense to be either emo or hippy or green freaks or God knows what.
But what are we really after? To prove our label is better than others? Or to do what makes sense to make the world a better, more livable place.
The way I see it is that the environment is being trashed and if we don't fix what we humans do to stop our negative impact we will wipe ourselves and wipe many other species out. Wars rage on over religious differences and resources and if we don't find a better way to resolve things, we wipe ourselves out. Racism is still a problem among many whites but most of the world is non-white. Racism in inherently wrong but if for no other reason, if we don't stop being racist, whites will get themselves wiped out. Social and economic inequality always results in conflict which leads to large numbers of people getting wiped out.
So if all of that is true, in general and based on current concepts of the labels, liberals tend to want to do things that will help preserve our species and our planet and conservatives in general support things that are more likely to get us wiped out. But rather than labels, can we just do what makes sense? Get rid of the labels, and for the sake of saving ourselves and for the sake of letting other life on earth continue on, lets do what makes sense.
Overly simplified and generalized as that all might be, it's my take and I stand by it.
Agree on the labels. The Churchill quote was supposed to be a lighthearted discussion of people's attitude changes through parenthood. We are welcoming a new baby to the forum after all. Some people decided to take this too personally.
So, BS, please explain to us the faults in the Iranian view:
But to seal the anticipated nuclear deal, more political will is required. The Iranian people have shown their resolve by choosing to engage with dignity. It is time for the United States and its Western allies to make the choice between cooperation and confrontation, between negotiations and grandstanding, and between agreement and coercion.
With courageous leadership and the audacity to make the right decisions, we can and should put this manufactured crisis to rest and move on to much more important work. The wider Persian Gulf region is in turmoil. It is not a question of governments rising and falling: the social, cultural and religious fabrics of entire countries are being torn to shreds.
There are no faults with the Iranian view. It only comes down to how much faith you have in the true nature of the regime. You trust them whole heartedly and I don't. We will never bridge that gap.
That's just it BS. Thats why this place is so chill. You can sincerely complement a fellow train member while simultaneously arguing about WMDs, And middle Eastern Nuclear capabilities.
Sounds about right.Carry on.
So true. It's actually my babies that turned me rightward. Curious to see if gambs has a similar experience.
Hahaha, unreal
As Churchill (allegedly) said: "If you're not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at 40 you have no brain."
I don't know about this one... Maybe for most, no...some people this is truth, but certainly not for all of us... I've been left wing political invested all my life... so were my parents. I rather have no brain, than no heart. I've been a mother for fifteen years by now, and just turned 40, but I've never had fear or greed leed my political views, and I probable never will be... but we'll see...
Well...the first problem is that you think conservative views are led by "fear and greed". Once you realize they are led by liberty and nothing else the change is much easier. You also must recognize that not all conservatives are the same. I am quite socially liberal with the caveat that I don't "fear" the social conservatives around me.
What Liberty? The liberty to hate? The liberty to be so convinced about your own world view, that you call everyone who disagrees with you, naive or brainwashed? I also strongly belief in my own worldview, but I don't belief it is the only right worldview, it only fits best for me. I try to stay open-minded for different worldviews. With the right argumentation, I might be convinced, of a different view, but so far you didn't give any arguments that give me any reason to question my own... Apparently neither did I give you any to change yours. However, what strikes me, is that in my post i try to ask you a lot of questions, which you seem to avoid. To bad, because if you don't answer them, i don't think you will ever be able to convince me...
Please. Everyone on here makes these posts about me and I answer as many people as I can. I looked back pretty briefly and I actually don't see a question from you...a lot of commentary for sure but no questions. If you come with a real question I'll answer it...if you come with barbrains commentary I'll probably hit the ignore button.
Sorry my mistake, you are right, I didn't ask a lot of questions. I can't type as quick as I think. In my next post I will type all the questions I did intend to ask you.
1. Do you think fighting a war has a winner and/or loser? 2. Should the West be on speaking terms with Iran, or do we shit in our paints with fear and act aggressively towards Iran out of fear? 3. What do you think the West will gain by starting another war in the middle east? And what do you think will be the costs? 4. Do you think by starting a war with Iran, we can prevent them from building a nuclear missile? 5. If yes on question 4., how do you think the Iranian people and regime will, react on such an act? 6. Do you think they will be glad to be free, or do you think the West/US will be seen as aggressor, and the hatred will be fueled up? 7. Do you think Iran will be a greater threat for Western society, than for example, North Korea, India, Pakistan, or Russia? And if so, which arguments do you have for such a point of view? 8. If you want to bring real democracy, you have to start with giving the right example, don't you think? 9.Do you think the outcome of a war against Iran, does give the West better or worse credits in the rest of Muslim society? 10. Do you see other solutions besides war or speaking terms to prevent Iran from building a nuke? Because the imposed treading embargoes don't seem to do the job?
I'm looking forward to your answers.
Post edited by Aafke on
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
While we rage in this threat, about a possible next war in the middle east. People are drowning in the Mediterranean Sea. Most of them are fugitives out of Syria. This year already more than 1500 men, women and children have drowned as a fugitive, trying to reach Europe. More than half of the numbers already from the drowning in entire 2014. Instead of helping them, the EU has shut down its humanitarian assistance program, and is trying to close the borders even further. Because if we pick up every floater, we encourage the fugitives to come to Europe. The outrage about the drownings isn't about the victims, but about the survivors, and what they will cost us.... European Counsel this evening: "No extra rescue boats, no pledged for extra resettlement, but a fast track expulsion policy..." When do we stop being so selfishness? When do we finally start to act human? I'm deeply ashamed, about being European right now.
Luckily some friends of mine in European and National Parliament are trying to change the view on this subject, and I will do everything in my power to support them! If we keep on acting only out of economic greed sooner or later we will have to pay a stiff price, for our inhuman behavior!
That's just it BS. Thats why this place is so chill. You can sincerely complement a fellow train member while simultaneously arguing about WMDs, And middle Eastern Nuclear capabilities.
Sounds about right.Carry on.
So true. It's actually my babies that turned me rightward. Curious to see if gambs has a similar experience.
Hahaha, unreal
As Churchill (allegedly) said: "If you're not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at 40 you have no brain."
I don't know about this one... Maybe for most, no...some people this is truth, but certainly not for all of us... I've been left wing political invested all my life... so were my parents. I rather have no brain, than no heart. I've been a mother for fifteen years by now, and just turned 40, but I've never had fear or greed leed my political views, and I probable never will be... but we'll see...
Well...the first problem is that you think conservative views are led by "fear and greed". Once you realize they are led by liberty and nothing else the change is much easier. You also must recognize that not all conservatives are the same. I am quite socially liberal with the caveat that I don't "fear" the social conservatives around me.
What Liberty? The liberty to hate? The liberty to be so convinced about your own world view, that you call everyone who disagrees with you, naive or brainwashed? I also strongly belief in my own worldview, but I don't belief it is the only right worldview, it only fits best for me. I try to stay open-minded for different worldviews. With the right argumentation, I might be convinced, of a different view, but so far you didn't give any arguments that give me any reason to question my own... Apparently neither did I give you any to change yours. However, what strikes me, is that in my post i try to ask you a lot of questions, which you seem to avoid. To bad, because if you don't answer them, i don't think you will ever be able to convince me...
I don't think your views and beliefs are wrong Aafke.
I never said they where... I only try to get BS so far to come with constructive arguments and start answering some of my questions...
He'll pick and choose what to answer. and then try to make you feel stupid for not understanding his posts. Just about everybody here thinks he's been advocating for war with Iran yet he tells you he never said that. But anyone with the reading comprehension of a 10th grader can understand his posts.
You can't find the post where I advocate for bombing Iran because it doesn't exist. Reading comprehension actually requires you to remove your emotions and concentrate on what the writer is saying. Thankfully the naval blockade I've been advocating for is starting to get underway. Let's hope this doesn't lead to military confrontation. You see how I wrote "doesn't" badbrains...it wasn't in capital letters but I still think it was pretty clear.
That's just it BS. Thats why this place is so chill. You can sincerely complement a fellow train member while simultaneously arguing about WMDs, And middle Eastern Nuclear capabilities.
Sounds about right.Carry on.
So true. It's actually my babies that turned me rightward. Curious to see if gambs has a similar experience.
Hahaha, unreal
As Churchill (allegedly) said: "If you're not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at 40 you have no brain."
I don't know about this one... Maybe for most, no...some people this is truth, but certainly not for all of us... I've been left wing political invested all my life... so were my parents. I rather have no brain, than no heart. I've been a mother for fifteen years by now, and just turned 40, but I've never had fear or greed leed my political views, and I probable never will be... but we'll see...
Yeah, it's a clever quote but let's see, are there any brains here?
-Leonard Bernstein -Warren Buffett -Noam Chomsky -Stephen Colbert -Benjamin Franklin -Arianna Huffington -Robert Kennedy -Norman Mailer -Bill Moyers -Michael Pollan -John Stewart Eddie V-v-v...aww, what's his name? -Elizabeth Warren
I'm sure I must have missed a few (billion).
They are all just motivated by their financial interest to be liberal
So conservatives are motivated by freedom alone and liberals are motivated by financial interest? That is pretty twisted. Sometimes I wonder what world you live in.
My comment was full sarcasm. Conservatives are accused of acting in their financial interests all the time...why can't it apply to liberals?
My bad lol I feel like we haven't seen much of your humorous side yet, give us time to adjust...we will still miss it sometimes, but alas thus is the internet. Same goes for ththe Churchill comment!
That's just it BS. Thats why this place is so chill. You can sincerely complement a fellow train member while simultaneously arguing about WMDs, And middle Eastern Nuclear capabilities.
Sounds about right.Carry on.
So true. It's actually my babies that turned me rightward. Curious to see if gambs has a similar experience.
Hahaha, unreal
As Churchill (allegedly) said: "If you're not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at 40 you have no brain."
I don't know about this one... Maybe for most, no...some people this is truth, but certainly not for all of us... I've been left wing political invested all my life... so were my parents. I rather have no brain, than no heart. I've been a mother for fifteen years by now, and just turned 40, but I've never had fear or greed leed my political views, and I probable never will be... but we'll see...
Yeah, it's a clever quote but let's see, are there any brains here?
-Leonard Bernstein -Warren Buffett -Noam Chomsky -Stephen Colbert -Benjamin Franklin -Arianna Huffington -Robert Kennedy -Norman Mailer -Bill Moyers -Michael Pollan -John Stewart Eddie V-v-v...aww, what's his name? -Elizabeth Warren
I'm sure I must have missed a few (billion).
They are all just motivated by their financial interest to be liberal
So conservatives are motivated by freedom alone and liberals are motivated by financial interest? That is pretty twisted. Sometimes I wonder what world you live in.
My comment was full sarcasm. Conservatives are accused of acting in their financial interests all the time...why can't it apply to liberals?
My bad lol I feel like we haven't seen much of your humorous side yet, give us time to adjust...we will still miss it sometimes, but alas thus is the internet. Same goes for ththe Churchill comment!
You haven't seen my humorous side! Man...that hurts more then anything!
I'm advocating for victory which might require a re-invasion of Iraq to surge levels. The surge was a success, the coalition can do it again and restore the peace to 2009-10 levels.
I am not advocating for the invasion or even the bombing of Iran. I said this earlier but apparently all of your reading skills are below poor. With respect to Iran I would end current negotiations as the Iranians have refused to move close enough to our desired position on non-proliferation. I would tighten international sanctions on anyone who does business or banks with the regime. I would make any Iranian militia present in Iraq, Yemen and possibly Syria fair game for attack. I would institute a massive naval blockade on Iran in order to make sure they don't receive or deliver any military supplies. I would fund and support the internal green movement in any way possible. I would do this all vocally and unapologetically as we (the west) represent what is good and their regime does not. Anyone who tries to equate the evils of our societies is not just wrong but is also a fool. With this kind of pressure we will hopefully encourage the internal Iranian opposition to force out the Mullahs.
In exchange for our pressure on Iran the Sunni states will have to crush the radicals among them be it ISIS, Al Qaeda, etc. and will have to be prepared to accept a future with a large moderate and strong Shia presence in the region.
As far as Palestine is concerned I would support the Palestinian Authority in everyway possible while aligning with Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Jordan etc in ending Hamas. Israel will be brought to the table and will be forced to make concessions following the defeat of Hamas. The PA wants a free Palestine and the end of Hamas. We will help them achieve both.
This is leadership. It will cost us plenty in both money and blood. The alternative is further regional collapse, genocide, terrorism and probably nuclear war. We are in for dark days no matter what. Shouldn't we at least try to control them?
What is the cost of this fantasy victory? In lives? In dollars? In failed relations around the world? Who else is ponying up? Canadian dollars I might add? In case you haven't noticed, the last ME debacle cost us a trillion plus and well the $17 trillion in debt has gotten the republicans gun shy about spending money or raising taxes. So, how much would you like to see Canada spend to prevent Iran from getting a bomb? Please spare me the Condi Rice mushroom cloud reference as well.
The costs in dollars and lives will be high. There is no denying this. I just happen to believe that inaction will cost us all more. Lives are being lost now.
As far as my statement on nuclear war it appears this needs to be better explained to you. Saudi Arabia is already exploring obtaining nuclear weapons, neighbouring states are exploring getting nuclear weapons. Yes other countries have them as well but we are moving to a point where more, for a lack of a better term, unstable states are going to pursue this technology. The Sunni-Shia divide is real and growing and extremist elements in the region are rising. We already see chemical weapons being used in Syria with blatant disregard. Over the long term nuclear weapons in the hands of unstable regimes is something everyone should be concerned about.
You still didn't answer the questions. What is high to you may be low to me and vice versa. Do you really think that a region so full of instability is going to have their shit together to attain nuclear weapons? And when will that be? Tomorrow? 6 months? A year maybe?
You seem to lack an understanding of the technical skill, resources and skill needed to acquire nuclear weapons. Unless you think NK is exporting suitcase bombs to the drug cartels who are leaving them with the headless bodies in the desert by ISIS training camps.
Drilling for fear keeps the job simple.
I do the best I can with the civilian knowledge I have. Am I privy to intelligence estimates and government cost analysis? Of course not. If we all need an expertise to comment on here then we might as well shut down the forum. If Pakistan and North Korea can get nukes then Iran and Saudi can get one easy...timeline will depend on how much help they get.
I wasn't born on third but I most definitely hit a triple.
The wonderful former compassionate conservative president of the US allowed NK to attain nuclear weapons and didn't do a thing about it. Except to name them part of the Axis of Evil. Neither did Canada as I recall. What makes Iran's acquiring nuclear weapons different?
And America used chemical weapons in Vietnam with blatant disregard. If the world attacked America the way America attacks the world, based on the pretences America has given for said attacks - there would be no America left.
Yes. America has committed past sins...some horrible one. Does this commit you now to a life of inaction?
No we learn from our past mistakes. More AMERICAN TROOPS is not the antibiotic it's the flu.
The wonderful former compassionate conservative president of the US allowed NK to attain nuclear weapons and didn't do a thing about it. Except to name them part of the Axis of Evil. Neither did Canada as I recall. What makes Iran's acquiring nuclear weapons different?
And America used chemical weapons in Vietnam with blatant disregard. If the world attacked America the way America attacks the world, based on the pretences America has given for said attacks - there would be no America left.
Yes. America has committed past sins...some horrible one. Does this commit you now to a life of inaction?
No we learn from our past mistakes. More AMERICAN TROOPS is not the antibiotic it's the flu.
I'm advocating for victory which might require a re-invasion of Iraq to surge levels. The surge was a success, the coalition can do it again and restore the peace to 2009-10 levels.
I am not advocating for the invasion or even the bombing of Iran. I said this earlier but apparently all of your reading skills are below poor. With respect to Iran I would end current negotiations as the Iranians have refused to move close enough to our desired position on non-proliferation. I would tighten international sanctions on anyone who does business or banks with the regime. I would make any Iranian militia present in Iraq, Yemen and possibly Syria fair game for attack. I would institute a massive naval blockade on Iran in order to make sure they don't receive or deliver any military supplies. I would fund and support the internal green movement in any way possible. I would do this all vocally and unapologetically as we (the west) represent what is good and their regime does not. Anyone who tries to equate the evils of our societies is not just wrong but is also a fool. With this kind of pressure we will hopefully encourage the internal Iranian opposition to force out the Mullahs.
In exchange for our pressure on Iran the Sunni states will have to crush the radicals among them be it ISIS, Al Qaeda, etc. and will have to be prepared to accept a future with a large moderate and strong Shia presence in the region.
As far as Palestine is concerned I would support the Palestinian Authority in everyway possible while aligning with Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Jordan etc in ending Hamas. Israel will be brought to the table and will be forced to make concessions following the defeat of Hamas. The PA wants a free Palestine and the end of Hamas. We will help them achieve both.
This is leadership. It will cost us plenty in both money and blood. The alternative is further regional collapse, genocide, terrorism and probably nuclear war. We are in for dark days no matter what. Shouldn't we at least try to control them?
What is the cost of this fantasy victory? In lives? In dollars? In failed relations around the world? Who else is ponying up? Canadian dollars I might add? In case you haven't noticed, the last ME debacle cost us a trillion plus and well the $17 trillion in debt has gotten the republicans gun shy about spending money or raising taxes. So, how much would you like to see Canada spend to prevent Iran from getting a bomb? Please spare me the Condi Rice mushroom cloud reference as well.
The costs in dollars and lives will be high. There is no denying this. I just happen to believe that inaction will cost us all more. Lives are being lost now.
As far as my statement on nuclear war it appears this needs to be better explained to you. Saudi Arabia is already exploring obtaining nuclear weapons, neighbouring states are exploring getting nuclear weapons. Yes other countries have them as well but we are moving to a point where more, for a lack of a better term, unstable states are going to pursue this technology. The Sunni-Shia divide is real and growing and extremist elements in the region are rising. We already see chemical weapons being used in Syria with blatant disregard. Over the long term nuclear weapons in the hands of unstable regimes is something everyone should be concerned about.
You still didn't answer the questions. What is high to you may be low to me and vice versa. Do you really think that a region so full of instability is going to have their shit together to attain nuclear weapons? And when will that be? Tomorrow? 6 months? A year maybe?
You seem to lack an understanding of the technical skill, resources and skill needed to acquire nuclear weapons. Unless you think NK is exporting suitcase bombs to the drug cartels who are leaving them with the headless bodies in the desert by ISIS training camps.
Drilling for fear keeps the job simple.
I do the best I can with the civilian knowledge I have. Am I privy to intelligence estimates and government cost analysis? Of course not. If we all need an expertise to comment on here then we might as well shut down the forum. If Pakistan and North Korea can get nukes then Iran and Saudi can get one easy...timeline will depend on how much help they get.
I wasn't born on third but I most definitely hit a triple.
The wonderful former compassionate conservative president of the US allowed NK to attain nuclear weapons and didn't do a thing about it. Except to name them part of the Axis of Evil. Neither did Canada as I recall. What makes Iran's acquiring nuclear weapons different?
And America used chemical weapons in Vietnam with blatant disregard. If the world attacked America the way America attacks the world, based on the pretences America has given for said attacks - there would be no America left.
Yes. America has committed past sins...some horrible one. Does this commit you now to a life of inaction?
No we learn from our past mistakes. More AMERICAN TROOPS is not the antibiotic it's the flu.
A David Brooks opinion piece is not indicative of "where the deal stands right now."
It is indicative of where the politics of this is moving. Brooks is/was Obama's biggest supporter on the mainstream media "conservative" side. The Corker bill will move forward probably with a likely veto-proof bipartisan majority (see response of Tim Kaine for proof). The "deal" which appears to be a mirage is probably dead. The question now will be how does Obama respond? He could blame Iran for the failure and drop the hammer or he can blame Israel and the 47 "treasonous" senators. I know which way this message board will go but let's see what the president does.
A message board full of people who want NO MORE WARS and one clown advocating for and spreading the war machine. It's fucken sickening how anyone would want another war. You are one twisted human. Drooling at the prospect of another fucken war to benefit who? Exactly.
Edit-you want a fucken war, then stop being a fucken coward and enlist. If you're to old then have your son/daughter enlist and have your family well represented there.
Four F-words in one post. Good work.
Lucky it was only 4. Anyone who advocates for war is fucken crazy. There's one more.
If we stay on the path we are on war will be inevitable. If and when it begins I suggest we win it.
I found your quote about war, you believe it to be inevitable, if we stay on this path. I think there lays our disagreement, I strongly believe talking and diplomacy, can prevent a war, sanctions alone can't, in my opinion it will only fuel up the hatred.
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,797
edited April 2015
so really here we are, arguing about soemthing isnt even in place yet. Only that it has the potential to be. personally I think this talk that this gives them a path to a bomb is bullshit. they were already well on their way and since 2013 it has been voluntarily frozen in place. Inspections ARE on poing ince that time BUT a major sticking point is access to the weaponization program. Whether they have it or not , the current posture seems to suggest so, but then we also thought Saddam had WMD and a bunch of other shit too that turned out to be bogus.
Take a deep breath, pay attention to what is said but more importantly to what is done in action. You all know how much bullshit is spewed by our own politicians , theirs cant be much different. Finally wait with hope that soemthing positive occurs.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
A David Brooks opinion piece is not indicative of "where the deal stands right now."
It is indicative of where the politics of this is moving. Brooks is/was Obama's biggest supporter on the mainstream media "conservative" side. The Corker bill will move forward probably with a likely veto-proof bipartisan majority (see response of Tim Kaine for proof). The "deal" which appears to be a mirage is probably dead. The question now will be how does Obama respond? He could blame Iran for the failure and drop the hammer or he can blame Israel and the 47 "treasonous" senators. I know which way this message board will go but let's see what the president does.
A message board full of people who want NO MORE WARS and one clown advocating for and spreading the war machine. It's fucken sickening how anyone would want another war. You are one twisted human. Drooling at the prospect of another fucken war to benefit who? Exactly.
Edit-you want a fucken war, then stop being a fucken coward and enlist. If you're to old then have your son/daughter enlist and have your family well represented there.
Four F-words in one post. Good work.
Lucky it was only 4. Anyone who advocates for war is fucken crazy. There's one more.
If we stay on the path we are on war will be inevitable. If and when it begins I suggest we win it.
I found your quote about war, you believe it to be inevitable, if we stay on this path. I think there lays our disagreement, I strongly believe talking and diplomacy, can prevent a war, sanctions alone can't, in my opinion it will only fuel up the hatred.
That quote isn't advocating for war though. I also have no issue with diplomacy. What I am advocating is for realism with respect to the nature of the Iranian regime. Israel and the Sunni states will not be ok with Iran going nuclear. If they feel it is getting to the point of it being only matter of days someone with possible Western involvement will strike. I look at this as both a failure on our part and probably a necessity at the same time. I feel the current path and "the deal" will not slow Iran down one bit. I am arguing to be tougher now to avoid catastrophe later.
A David Brooks opinion piece is not indicative of "where the deal stands right now."
It is indicative of where the politics of this is moving. Brooks is/was Obama's biggest supporter on the mainstream media "conservative" side. The Corker bill will move forward probably with a likely veto-proof bipartisan majority (see response of Tim Kaine for proof). The "deal" which appears to be a mirage is probably dead. The question now will be how does Obama respond? He could blame Iran for the failure and drop the hammer or he can blame Israel and the 47 "treasonous" senators. I know which way this message board will go but let's see what the president does.
A message board full of people who want NO MORE WARS and one clown advocating for and spreading the war machine. It's fucken sickening how anyone would want another war. You are one twisted human. Drooling at the prospect of another fucken war to benefit who? Exactly.
Edit-you want a fucken war, then stop being a fucken coward and enlist. If you're to old then have your son/daughter enlist and have your family well represented there.
Four F-words in one post. Good work.
Lucky it was only 4. Anyone who advocates for war is fucken crazy. There's one more.
If we stay on the path we are on war will be inevitable. If and when it begins I suggest we win it.
I found your quote about war, you believe it to be inevitable, if we stay on this path. I think there lays our disagreement, I strongly believe talking and diplomacy, can prevent a war, sanctions alone can't, in my opinion it will only fuel up the hatred.
That quote isn't advocating for war though. I also have no issue with diplomacy. What I am advocating is for realism with respect to the nature of the Iranian regime. Israel and the Sunni states will not be ok with Iran going nuclear. If they feel it is getting to the point of it being only matter of days someone with possible Western involvement will strike. I look at this as both a failure on our part and probably a necessity at the same time. I feel the current path and "the deal" will not slow Iran down one bit. I am arguing to be tougher now to avoid catastrophe later.
Sorry, my mistake, my own prejudice and language disabilities probable got the best of me... Although I'm not sure being tougher can prevent a catastrophe later on, I believe diplomacy is the only option to prevent Iran, Israel and the Sunni states from becoming a war zone.
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
That's just it BS. Thats why this place is so chill. You can sincerely complement a fellow train member while simultaneously arguing about WMDs, And middle Eastern Nuclear capabilities.
Sounds about right.Carry on.
So true. It's actually my babies that turned me rightward. Curious to see if gambs has a similar experience.
Hahaha, unreal
As Churchill (allegedly) said: "If you're not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at 40 you have no brain."
I don't know about this one... Maybe for most, no...some people this is truth, but certainly not for all of us... I've been left wing political invested all my life... so were my parents. I rather have no brain, than no heart. I've been a mother for fifteen years by now, and just turned 40, but I've never had fear or greed leed my political views, and I probable never will be... but we'll see...
Well...the first problem is that you think conservative views are led by "fear and greed". Once you realize they are led by liberty and nothing else the change is much easier. You also must recognize that not all conservatives are the same. I am quite socially liberal with the caveat that I don't "fear" the social conservatives around me.
What Liberty? The liberty to hate? The liberty to be so convinced about your own world view, that you call everyone who disagrees with you, naive or brainwashed? I also strongly belief in my own worldview, but I don't belief it is the only right worldview, it only fits best for me. I try to stay open-minded for different worldviews. With the right argumentation, I might be convinced, of a different view, but so far you didn't give any arguments that give me any reason to question my own... Apparently neither did I give you any to change yours. However, what strikes me, is that in my post i try to ask you a lot of questions, which you seem to avoid. To bad, because if you don't answer them, i don't think you will ever be able to convince me...
Please. Everyone on here makes these posts about me and I answer as many people as I can. I looked back pretty briefly and I actually don't see a question from you...a lot of commentary for sure but no questions. If you come with a real question I'll answer it...if you come with barbrains commentary I'll probably hit the ignore button.
But that's just it, you don't hit the ignore. You think real hard of a comeback for a long time, and all you come up with is some pussy ass farts like my reading comprehension is shitty. Dude, you can deny all you want about not making that statement or advocating for war, your undertones are clearly for dropping bombs on Iran. I'm not the only one who thinks this. And you did in some thread somewhere, maybe not in this Iran one, but you most definitely were advocating for dropping bombs on Iran. You're trying to backtrack. look, it's obvious you and I are completely polar opposites. U don't like me and I sure as hell don't like you. So for the sake of not locking this thread or any future anti-Arab/Muslim thread, let's keep the debate about the subject. sound fair?
That's just it BS. Thats why this place is so chill. You can sincerely complement a fellow train member while simultaneously arguing about WMDs, And middle Eastern Nuclear capabilities.
Sounds about right.Carry on.
So true. It's actually my babies that turned me rightward. Curious to see if gambs has a similar experience.
Hahaha, unreal
As Churchill (allegedly) said: "If you're not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at 40 you have no brain."
I don't know about this one... Maybe for most, no...some people this is truth, but certainly not for all of us... I've been left wing political invested all my life... so were my parents. I rather have no brain, than no heart. I've been a mother for fifteen years by now, and just turned 40, but I've never had fear or greed leed my political views, and I probable never will be... but we'll see...
Well...the first problem is that you think conservative views are led by "fear and greed". Once you realize they are led by liberty and nothing else the change is much easier. You also must recognize that not all conservatives are the same. I am quite socially liberal with the caveat that I don't "fear" the social conservatives around me.
What Liberty? The liberty to hate? The liberty to be so convinced about your own world view, that you call everyone who disagrees with you, naive or brainwashed? I also strongly belief in my own worldview, but I don't belief it is the only right worldview, it only fits best for me. I try to stay open-minded for different worldviews. With the right argumentation, I might be convinced, of a different view, but so far you didn't give any arguments that give me any reason to question my own... Apparently neither did I give you any to change yours. However, what strikes me, is that in my post i try to ask you a lot of questions, which you seem to avoid. To bad, because if you don't answer them, i don't think you will ever be able to convince me...
Please. Everyone on here makes these posts about me and I answer as many people as I can. I looked back pretty briefly and I actually don't see a question from you...a lot of commentary for sure but no questions. If you come with a real question I'll answer it...if you come with barbrains commentary I'll probably hit the ignore button.
But that's just it, you don't hit the ignore. You think real hard of a comeback for a long time, and all you come up with is some pussy ass farts like my reading comprehension is shitty. Dude, you can deny all you want about not making that statement or advocating for war, your undertones are clearly for dropping bombs on Iran. I'm not the only one who thinks this. And you did in some thread somewhere, maybe not in this Iran one, but you most definitely were advocating for dropping bombs on Iran. You're trying to backtrack. look, it's obvious you and I are completely polar opposites. U don't like me and I sure as hell don't like you. So for the sake of not locking this thread or any future anti-Arab/Muslim thread, let's keep the debate about the subject. sound fair?
Comments
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
Remember, once upon a time conservative meant "to conserve" which meant your were a conservationist. How many conservatives today consider themselves conservationist?
The term "liberal" originally meant a worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality. Now the word liberty is used to mean conservative and liberals are viewed in a more broad sense to be either emo or hippy or green freaks or God knows what.
But what are we really after? To prove our label is better than others? Or to do what makes sense to make the world a better, more livable place.
The way I see it is that the environment is being trashed and if we don't fix what we humans do to stop our negative impact we will wipe ourselves and wipe many other species out. Wars rage on over religious differences and resources and if we don't find a better way to resolve things, we wipe ourselves out. Racism is still a problem among many whites but most of the world is non-white. Racism in inherently wrong but if for no other reason, if we don't stop being racist, whites will get themselves wiped out. Social and economic inequality always results in conflict which leads to large numbers of people getting wiped out.
So if all of that is true, in general and based on current concepts of the labels, liberals tend to want to do things that will help preserve our species and our planet and conservatives in general support things that are more likely to get us wiped out. But rather than labels, can we just do what makes sense? Get rid of the labels, and for the sake of saving ourselves and for the sake of letting other life on earth continue on, lets do what makes sense.
Overly simplified and generalized as that all might be, it's my take and I stand by it.
But to seal the anticipated nuclear deal, more political will is required. The Iranian people have shown their resolve by choosing to engage with dignity. It is time for the United States and its Western allies to make the choice between cooperation and confrontation, between negotiations and grandstanding, and between agreement and coercion.
With courageous leadership and the audacity to make the right decisions, we can and should put this manufactured crisis to rest and move on to much more important work. The wider Persian Gulf region is in turmoil. It is not a question of governments rising and falling: the social, cultural and religious fabrics of entire countries are being torn to shreds.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/20/opinion/mohammad-javad-zarif-a-message-from-iran.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region®ion=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region&_r=0
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
Instead of helping them, the EU has shut down its humanitarian assistance program, and is trying to close the borders even further. Because if we pick up every floater, we encourage the fugitives to come to Europe. The outrage about the drownings isn't about the victims, but about the survivors, and what they will cost us.... European Counsel this evening: "No extra rescue boats, no pledged for extra resettlement, but a fast track expulsion policy..." When do we stop being so selfishness? When do we finally start to act human? I'm deeply ashamed, about being European right now.
Luckily some friends of mine in European and National Parliament are trying to change the view on this subject, and I will do everything in my power to support them! If we keep on acting only out of economic greed sooner or later we will have to pay a stiff price, for our inhuman behavior!
bbc.com/news/world-europe-24583286
nytimes.com/2015/04/21/world/europe/european-union-immigration-migrant-ship-capsizes.html?ref=europe
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
I wasn't born on third but I most definitely hit a triple.
1. Do you think fighting a war has a winner and/or loser?
2. Should the West be on speaking terms with Iran, or do we shit in our paints with fear and act aggressively towards Iran out of fear?
3. What do you think the West will gain by starting another war in the middle east? And what do you think will be the costs?
4. Do you think by starting a war with Iran, we can prevent them from building a nuclear missile?
5. If yes on question 4., how do you think the Iranian people and regime will, react on such an act?
6. Do you think they will be glad to be free, or do you think the West/US will be seen as aggressor, and the hatred will be fueled up?
7. Do you think Iran will be a greater threat for Western society, than for example, North Korea, India, Pakistan, or Russia? And if so, which arguments do you have for such a point of view?
8. If you want to bring real democracy, you have to start with giving the right example, don't you think?
9.Do you think the outcome of a war against Iran, does give the West better or worse credits in the rest of Muslim society?
10. Do you see other solutions besides war or speaking terms to prevent Iran from building a nuke? Because the imposed treading embargoes don't seem to do the job?
I'm looking forward to your answers.
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
He'll pick and choose what to answer. and then try to make you feel stupid for not understanding his posts. Just about everybody here thinks he's been advocating for war with Iran yet he tells you he never said that. But anyone with the reading comprehension of a 10th grader can understand his posts.You can't find the post where I advocate for bombing Iran because it doesn't exist. Reading comprehension actually requires you to remove your emotions and concentrate on what the writer is saying. Thankfully the naval blockade I've been advocating for is starting to get underway. Let's hope this doesn't lead to military confrontation. You see how I wrote "doesn't" badbrains...it wasn't in capital letters but I still think it was pretty clear.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_UNITED_STATES_IRAN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
I feel like we haven't seen much of your humorous side yet, give us time to adjust...we will still miss it sometimes, but alas thus is the internet. Same goes for ththe Churchill comment!
Now Middle East....not.
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
Take a deep breath, pay attention to what is said but more importantly to what is done in action. You all know how much bullshit is spewed by our own politicians , theirs cant be much different. Finally wait with hope that soemthing positive occurs.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
But on a lighter scale 19 reasons why never to visit Iran...
pulptastic.com/17-reasons-never-visit-iran/
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
http://www.vox.com/2015/4/20/8453267/iran-deal-case-against