Reclaiming Environmentalism

Since Derrick Jensen posted this on his cite as an open letter, I assume it to be fair game to reprint here. This is very, very heavy reading. To submit to this vision of a new environmentalism requires a huge degree of commitment and I'm not even sure how it can be achieved. And yet when you read the points Jensen makes- strong points that are difficult to argue with- to not commit to something like this could be hugely disastrous for both humans and much other life. Yeah, I know, this all sounds like so much doom and gloom. Forget that, just please read the letter at face value before drawing any conclusions from anything I say. What do I know?

I'm curious as to what some of you think so thanks in advance for anyone willing to check this out thoroughly.

http://www.derrickjensen.org/open-letter-to-reclaim-environmentalism/

Open
Letter
to
Reclaim
Environmentalism

Lire en français

Once, the environmental movement was about protecting the natural world from the insatiable demands of this extractive culture. Some of the movement still is: around the world grassroots activists and their organizations are fighting desperately to save this or that creature they love, this or that plant or fungi, this or that wild place.

Contrast this to what some activists are calling the conservation-industrial complex–­big green organizations, huge “environmental” foundations, neo-environmentalists, some academics–­which has co-opted too much of the movement into “sustainability,” with that word being devalued to mean “keeping this culture going as long as possible.” Instead of fighting to protect our one and only home, they are trying to “sustain” the very culture that is killing the planet. And they are often quite explicit about their priorities.

For example, the recent “An Open Letter to Environmentalists on Nuclear Energy,” signed by a number of academics, some conservation biologists, and other members of the conservation-industrial complex, labels nuclear energy as “sustainable” and argues that because of global warming, nuclear energy plays a “key role” in “global biodiversity conservation.” Their entire argument is based on the presumption that industrial energy usage is, like Dick Cheney said, not negotiable–­it is taken as a given. And for what will this energy be used? To continue extraction and drawdown­–to convert the last living creatures and their communities into the final dead commodities.

Their letter said we should let “objective evidence” be our guide. One sign of intelligence is the ability to recognize patterns: let’s lay out a pattern and see if we can recognize it in less than 10,000 years. When you think of Iraq, do you think of cedar forests so thick that sunlight never touches the ground? That’s how it was prior to the beginnings of this culture. The Near East was a forest. North Africa was a forest. Greece was a forest. All pulled down to support this culture. Forests precede us, while deserts dog our heels. There were so many whales in the Atlantic they were a hazard to ships. There were so many bison on the Great Plains you could watch for four days as a herd thundered by. There were so many salmon in the Pacific Northwest you could hear them coming for hours before they arrived. The evidence is not just “objective,” it’s overwhelming: this culture exsanguinates the world of water, of soil, of species, and of the process of life itself, until all that is left is dust.

Fossil fuels have accelerated this destruction, but they didn’t cause it, and switching from fossil fuels to nuclear energy (or windmills) won’t stop it. Maybe three generations of humans will experience this level of consumption, but a culture based on drawdown has no future. Of all people, conservation biologists should understand that drawdown cannot last, and should not be taken as a given when designing public policy–­let alone a way of life.

It is long past time for those of us whose loyalties lie with wild plants and animals and places to take back our movement from those who use its rhetoric to foster accelerating ecocide. It is long past time we all faced the fact that an extractive way of life has never had a future, and can only end in biotic collapse. Every day this extractive culture continues, two hundred species slip into that longest night of extinction. We have very little time left to stop the destruction and to start the repair. And the repair might yet be done: grasslands, for example, are so good at sequestering carbon that restoring 75 percent of the planet’s prairies could bring atmospheric CO2 to under 330 ppm in fifteen years or less. This would also restore habitat for a near infinite number of creatures. We can make similar arguments about reforestation. Or consider that out of the more than 450 dead zones in the oceans, precisely one has repaired itself. How? The collapse of the Soviet Empire made agriculture unfeasible in the region near the Black Sea: with the destructive activity taken away, the dead zone disappeared, and life returned. It really is that simple.

You’d think that those who claim to care about biodiversity would cherish “objective evidence” like this. But instead the conservation-industrial complex promotes nuclear energy (or windmills). Why? Because restoring prairies and forests and ending empires doesn’t fit with the extractive agenda of the global overlords.

This and other attempts to rationalize increasingly desperate means to fuel this destructive culture are frankly insane. The fundamental problem we face as environmentalists and as human beings isn’t to try to find a way to power the destruction just a little bit longer: it’s to stop the destruction. The scale of this emergency defies meaning. Mountains are falling. The oceans are dying. The climate itself is bleeding out and it’s our children who will find out if it’s beyond hope. The only certainty is that our one and only home, once lush with life and the promise of more, will soon be a bare rock if we do nothing.

We the undersigned are not part of the conservation-industrial complex. Many of us are long-term environmental activists. Some of us are Indigenous people whose cultures have been living truly sustainably and respectfully with all our relations from long before the dominant culture began exploiting the planet. But all of us are human beings who recognize we are animals who like all others need livable habitat on a living earth. And we love salmon and prairie dogs and black terns and wild nature more than we love this way of life.

Environmentalism is not about insulating this culture from the effects of its world-destroying activities. Nor is it about trying to perpetuate these world-destroying activities. We are reclaiming environmentalism to mean protecting the natural world from this culture.

And more importantly, we are reclaiming this earth that is our only home, reclaiming it from this extractive culture. We love this earth, and we will defend our beloved.

“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













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Comments

  • I saw the title Brian and thought "when did you ever give it up?"
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    edited February 2015
    Is the extractive culture completely at odds with environmetalism? This has always been the big question for me and for others on the right. I care about this earth but I also see extractive energy as necessary. Do these have to be at odds? Can we get extractive technologies to be cleaner? I think where environmentalism has its problems these days is from those who insist extractive energies must end. I believe we have the means to use these energies while protecting the earth at the same time.
  • WhatYouTaughtMeWhatYouTaughtMe Posts: 4,957
    edited February 2015
    http://youtu.be/MI0-rUHorj8
    Good read Brian. I saw you mention the underlying problem in another thread awhile back. There are just too many of us. This planet cannot sustain the amount of people currently inhabiting it. I don't have a rational answer or suggestion that would solve that problem. Unfortunately it will come down to the Earth taking care of it in it's own natural way.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    I think this writer is spot-on, but I don't think there is any real hope. The world will never willingly step back by toward a life that can last. We consume as a way of life, and how can that be changed?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    BS44325 said:

    Is the extractive culture completely at odds with environmetalism? This has always been the big question for me and for others on the right. I care about this earth but I also see extractive energy as necessary. Do these have to be at odds? Can we get extractive technologies to be cleaner? I think where environmentalism has its problems these days is from those who insist extractive energies must end. I believe we have the means to use these energies while protecting the earth at the same time.

    I think evidence going all the way back to the dawning of written history shows that the two are certainly at odds. I don't mean to offend but it seems you missed the entire point of the letter. Let's say we miraculously overcome the monetary barrier to making extractive tech better, (you do realize that can ONLY come from government control right? the very "free market pphilosophy" y'all on the right live by guarantees it) now what? We have clean energy so everyone uses it at will, life spans continue to get longer and population continues to increase exponentially. Where is everyone going to live? In the forest under the trees? Among the rocks and dirt? Nope, highrise apartments, more energy, more roads, more land being taken up for habitation, more industrial agriculture replacing natural ecosystems.
    You are deluding yourself and ignoring the empirical evidence to believe "we have the means to use these energies while protecting the earth at the same time"
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    BS, I agree that we should use technologies that will lessen our impact on the health of the planet but that alone will not be enough. Humans currently consume all the resources the earth reproduces by August of each year which means that everything we consume for the next (at least) four months comes out of what will be available in coming years. Changing technologies will change that some but as the rest of the world moves into the developed world (and yes, who are we to say they shouldn't since we are?), the impact on resources and planetary health will still be far too great.

    WhatYouTaughtMe, Yes! Population is so much of the problem. I don't have an answer for that either. I never had kids of my own (but am a dad and dad-uncle) but I would never be so brazen as to tell others not to have children. I can only hope people world-wide will recognize the problem of population and act accordingly (like maybe have one and adopt if more are wanted). (Thanks for the Bill Burr video clip!)

    rgambs, hope is looking at Jensen's open letter this morning and seeing how many new signatures have been added to that list and passing this along and watching that number grow. Hope is doing what make sense no matter how things turn out. You're probably right in that the world will probably not step back. I just hope we can get enough people to realize what is happening so that maybe the slim chance of something being done will happen before we really screw up this planet. Chances are the earth will rebound after we are gone but are we sure of that? If the ocean die, the earth could could lose it's ability to support life. Do we really want to play Russian Roulette with the life of the planet? Or for that matter, do we really want to make the planet at the very least inhospitable for large mammals including homo sapiens? In any case, rg, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I understand the frustration of what seems like futility. I just have to keep putting it out there and hope for the best!

    If Jensen's letter rings true to any of you, please sign the letter and forward the link to others. Thank you!
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    I did get the point rgambs but I am not sure where that leaves us. We as humans are here on this earth. The majority of the world's population live in poverty. Cheap, reliable and abundant energy is needed to bring us out of poverty. Whether it is for providing food, water, heat, medicine etc...all of these things require energy. It is -20 celcius in Toronto right now! This energy that sustains us needs to come from somewhere. This does not mean that human needs should trump other species needs or the planet as a whole. We certainly need to work on the consumption angle but somehow we must continue to produce energy that sustains us and the planet.
  • I've been thinking for years that what will do us all in is capitalism. The love of money will ultimately cause humans demise. So, "sustainability" according to the article is correct. Businesses use the word to make themselves look like they care… but only if they can keep going forward in their businesses and continue to increase their profits. Industrial energy usage = not negotiable.

    And that's the biggest flaw. Because we live in a capitalistic world, where money and business trumps the planet. In order to save our planet from our obsession with money and gluttonous consuming nature, we need to teach our younger generations that money does not equal happiness, nor does it solve the planet's problems. Because they are the future and they will be dealing with harder environmental problems, much moreso than we are.
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    I'm not sure I see how supporting capitalism is equal to greed, or of the fall of human beings, or even being against environmental responsibility. A somewhat unfair and large leap of reason.

    Look at the items sold within the little world of the Ten Club here. They're charging - and people (we) are paying - quite a bit for hoodies and dog collars and posters. Almost a dozen categories of things to buy, for monetary profit.

    So does it come down to who the collective deems approved when it's OK to make any profit?
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038

    I've been thinking for years that what will do us all in is capitalism. The love of money will ultimately cause humans demise. So, "sustainability" according to the article is correct. Businesses use the word to make themselves look like they care… but only if they can keep going forward in their businesses and continue to increase their profits. Industrial energy usage = not negotiable.

    And that's the biggest flaw. Because we live in a capitalistic world, where money and business trumps the planet. In order to save our planet from our obsession with money and gluttonous consuming nature, we need to teach our younger generations that money does not equal happiness, nor does it solve the planet's problems. Because they are the future and they will be dealing with harder environmental problems, much moreso than we are.

    Good point, bsL- big business will capitalize on anything- even "sustainability" and especially anything labeled "green".

    We all have needs and I know a lot of us try to to over-consume but what Jensen's letter does for me is motivates me to take yet another look at how I live. I've really flipped out over the band Dinosaur Jr lately when I ran across a used CD copy of "Where You Been?". I could have been patient and waited for more used copies of other records but went and bought a bunch of new stuff. I like supporting good bands but after reading Jensen's letter I'm thing, wow- did I need to get carried away like that? I'll enjoy those records and I'm not going to beat myself up over it but I'll go back to proceeding with caution as I generally try to do.

    Hedo: Good question. Personally, I don't think any band needs to sell all the trinket stuff. Just give us the music! Now if they started selling t-shirts made from hemp I would be on that! We all need clothes and hemp is... well that's all in the hemp thread!

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Just to clarify, I wasn't saying we should give up trying just because we are all doomed. Hahaha
  • At a job I used to have that was heavily corporate (because we were acquired by a bigger company), they had a contest for the "next best thing" to come out of the publishing/marketing company. 4 co-workers and myself won by coming up with a company's green initiative, and the owner actively put it into their profile and practice. They were very wary about putting anything into action that would jeopardize costs and profits and our hands were tied with what we could actually do with the green initiative. It turned out to be nothing we envisioned, sadly.
  • Don't get me started about the merch here, Hedonist. Who needs all that stuff with the PJ label on it, really? Because aside from the 2 t-shirts I own, I'm all set.
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    I takes energy to both make and spin vinyl backseatlover12
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Posts: 12,845
    Yes, it takes energy to do absolutely everything, so it's all a matter of what choices we make. I'm also in the camp of believing that cutting down on trinkets and other unnecessary items is a reasonable start.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038

    Yes, it takes energy to do absolutely everything, so it's all a matter of what choices we make. I'm also in the camp of believing that cutting down on trinkets and other unnecessary items is a reasonable start.

    I think you both make a good point, BS and often. This is where it gets tricky. What do we decide is essential? Maybe a good place to start is to weigh what are the benefits are of an item or category of goods. I would guess most of us would agree that music and the arts in general are good things in that they are an important form of communication and bring people together and give us solace or an outlet for anger. But maybe some people feel the same way about monster trucks. But we can always move toward supporting local acts that don't involve owning every single piece of vinyl, sticker, t-shirt, and coffee mug put out by a band or going to local sporting events instead of driving to an arena to watch gas guzzling vehicles roar over mounds of dirt. One thing for sure- none of needs 99.9 percent of the plastic crap that gets used once and thrown in the trash. (I'd like to take a survey some day and find how how many people rinse or wash and reuse ziplock bags and containers and so forth.) Moving toward useful, durable (I love that word) goods makes more sense. Doesn't make as much profit for corporations but then... yeah, you know where I'm going with that!

    I'm with you on the cutting down of amassing trickets, oftenreading. I don't think we should expect a rock band to be on the forefront of environmentalism or any other movement although when they are, it's a big boost. And if a band does advocate for something, I would hope they go all out and not just give it lip service.

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    There are powers that want to strip every good effort we make for the environment.


    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • stuckinlinestuckinline Posts: 3,367
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/06/02/california-water-restrictions-drought/7484037001/

    Would it be possible for communities to use grey water to flush toilets and water lawns? Or better yet, replace portions of lawns with plants that don't need to be watered or mowed.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/06/02/california-water-restrictions-drought/7484037001/

    Would it be possible for communities to use grey water to flush toilets and water lawns? Or better yet, replace portions of lawns with plants that don't need to be watered or mowed.

    It could be done, but in most places it's illegal. 
    This will give you an idea of how (NOT) seriously many people are taking the water shortage her in the west:

    Which U.S. Cities Have the Most Homes With Swimming Pools?

    Phoenix, with a desert-type climate, is at the top with 32.7% of homes having a pool installed.



    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • stuckinlinestuckinline Posts: 3,367
    brianlux said:
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/06/02/california-water-restrictions-drought/7484037001/

    Would it be possible for communities to use grey water to flush toilets and water lawns? Or better yet, replace portions of lawns with plants that don't need to be watered or mowed.

    It could be done, but in most places it's illegal. 
    This will give you an idea of how (NOT) seriously many people are taking the water shortage her in the west:

    Which U.S. Cities Have the Most Homes With Swimming Pools?

    Phoenix, with a desert-type climate, is at the top with 32.7% of homes having a pool installed.



    I wonder what will it take for people to take the water shortage seriously? 
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 2022
    brianlux said:
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/06/02/california-water-restrictions-drought/7484037001/

    Would it be possible for communities to use grey water to flush toilets and water lawns? Or better yet, replace portions of lawns with plants that don't need to be watered or mowed.

    It could be done, but in most places it's illegal. 
    This will give you an idea of how (NOT) seriously many people are taking the water shortage her in the west:

    Which U.S. Cities Have the Most Homes With Swimming Pools?

    Phoenix, with a desert-type climate, is at the top with 32.7% of homes having a pool installed.



    I wonder what will it take for people to take the water shortage seriously? 
    We have a fresh water shortage and I saw an article today that the Greenland melting will raise sea level a foot and it’s too late to stop it.

    I really don’t think people understand sea level rise and a drought can happen at once.  You can’t drink ocean water but they seem to be confused at these scientists and their mixed messages.  You can’t have both too much water and too little right?

    unless they think we can somehow pipe it in direct from the glacier to Arizona 

    whatever happens though the democrats will be blamed for rationing water that there isn’t enough of.  They are coming for your pools 

    I still think the worst thing to ever happen to the environment was Al Gore. Not because of the content but because it made the issue political, at least to republicans. We have never recovered from that. A non partisan issue being partisan at the worst possible moment.
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • cblock4lifecblock4life Posts: 1,720
    brianlux said:
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/06/02/california-water-restrictions-drought/7484037001/

    Would it be possible for communities to use grey water to flush toilets and water lawns? Or better yet, replace portions of lawns with plants that don't need to be watered or mowed.

    It could be done, but in most places it's illegal. 
    This will give you an idea of how (NOT) seriously many people are taking the water shortage her in the west:

    Which U.S. Cities Have the Most Homes With Swimming Pools?

    Phoenix, with a desert-type climate, is at the top with 32.7% of homes having a pool installed.



    I wonder what will it take for people to take the water shortage seriously? 
    Standing in line waiting for drinking water while everyone’s holding an AR 15 because by then we’ll all need one 
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    brianlux said:
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/06/02/california-water-restrictions-drought/7484037001/

    Would it be possible for communities to use grey water to flush toilets and water lawns? Or better yet, replace portions of lawns with plants that don't need to be watered or mowed.

    It could be done, but in most places it's illegal. 
    This will give you an idea of how (NOT) seriously many people are taking the water shortage her in the west:

    Which U.S. Cities Have the Most Homes With Swimming Pools?

    Phoenix, with a desert-type climate, is at the top with 32.7% of homes having a pool installed.



    I wonder what will it take for people to take the water shortage seriously? 
    Standing in line waiting for drinking water while everyone’s holding an AR 15 because by then we’ll all need one 

    Yeah, it's gonna get rough.  We're going to see rationing and regulations that will be responded to by MAGATs, water wars, and, sadly, deaths due to dehydration and heat exposure.
    And let's face it, as much as most of us love her, Mother Nature has no tolerance and makes no exceptions for stupidity.

    And in other environmental news, check out this unsettling bit of news.

    The coup d'état applies to the U.S. branch of Sea Shepherds only.  I am changing my alliance to Sea Shepherd Global, the organization that continues to carry out the work of the original Sea Shepherd Conservation Society.  The founder of that organization, Captain Paul Watson has moved on to Sea Shepherd Global.  You can check them out here:



    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 2022
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/06/02/california-water-restrictions-drought/7484037001/

    Would it be possible for communities to use grey water to flush toilets and water lawns? Or better yet, replace portions of lawns with plants that don't need to be watered or mowed.

    It could be done, but in most places it's illegal. 
    This will give you an idea of how (NOT) seriously many people are taking the water shortage her in the west:

    Which U.S. Cities Have the Most Homes With Swimming Pools?

    Phoenix, with a desert-type climate, is at the top with 32.7% of homes having a pool installed.



    I wonder what will it take for people to take the water shortage seriously? 
    Standing in line waiting for drinking water while everyone’s holding an AR 15 because by then we’ll all need one 

    Yeah, it's gonna get rough.  We're going to see rationing and regulations that will be responded to by MAGATs, water wars, and, sadly, deaths due to dehydration and heat exposure.
    And let's face it, as much as most of us love her, Mother Nature has no tolerance and makes no exceptions for stupidity.

    And in other environmental news, check out this unsettling bit of news.

    The coup d'état applies to the U.S. branch of Sea Shepherds only.  I am changing my alliance to Sea Shepherd Global, the organization that continues to carry out the work of the original Sea Shepherd Conservation Society.  The founder of that organization, Captain Paul Watson has moved on to Sea Shepherd Global.  You can check them out here:



    I don’t think serious rationing will happen until it’s too late. It may seem too late now but it’s not. Phoenix having zero water is too late 

    Arizona is the perfect example. Republican led and the junior water rights partner on the Colorado. A democratic state will get blamed (Colorado or specifically California) for any lifestyle changes. Who knows if they will force the water they do get to be used sparingly 

    blame will get focused in the wrong places.  I’m convinced of that 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • jpgoegeljpgoegel Posts: 412
    oh wow, I havent thought of Derrick Jensen in a long time.   his culture of make believe book was some really interesting stuff
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    jpgoegel said:
    oh wow, I havent thought of Derrick Jensen in a long time.   his culture of make believe book was some really interesting stuff

    It is indeed.
    The latest post here are actually a bit off top but I didn't want to start yet another environmental thread.  I am tempted though.  The situation with SSCS (as in the link above) had a lot of folks in the world of ocean environmentalism really dismayed and unhappy (including myself).
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 2022
    brianlux said:
    jpgoegel said:
    oh wow, I havent thought of Derrick Jensen in a long time.   his culture of make believe book was some really interesting stuff

    It is indeed.
    The latest post here are actually a bit off top but I didn't want to start yet another environmental thread.  I am tempted though.  The situation with SSCS (as in the link above) had a lot of folks in the world of ocean environmentalism really dismayed and unhappy (including myself).
    As bad as it sounds that tv show was my only real Paul Watson exposure. Whale Wars I think it was 
    kind of lost track after the first few seasons 

    That guy is great. 
    He is sea shepherd and the article says the exact same thing 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    brianlux said:
    jpgoegel said:
    oh wow, I havent thought of Derrick Jensen in a long time.   his culture of make believe book was some really interesting stuff

    It is indeed.
    The latest post here are actually a bit off top but I didn't want to start yet another environmental thread.  I am tempted though.  The situation with SSCS (as in the link above) had a lot of folks in the world of ocean environmentalism really dismayed and unhappy (including myself).
    As bad as it sounds that tv show was my only real Paul Watson exposure. Whale Wars I think it was 
    kind of lost track after the first few seasons 

    That guy is great. He is sea shepherd 
    This!

    If you like that show, I think you would really appreciate this amazing documentary as well:
    Pirate for the Sea 2008 - IMDb



    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 2022
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    jpgoegel said:
    oh wow, I havent thought of Derrick Jensen in a long time.   his culture of make believe book was some really interesting stuff

    It is indeed.
    The latest post here are actually a bit off top but I didn't want to start yet another environmental thread.  I am tempted though.  The situation with SSCS (as in the link above) had a lot of folks in the world of ocean environmentalism really dismayed and unhappy (including myself).
    As bad as it sounds that tv show was my only real Paul Watson exposure. Whale Wars I think it was 
    kind of lost track after the first few seasons 

    That guy is great. He is sea shepherd 
    This!

    If you like that show, I think you would really appreciate this amazing documentary as well:
    Pirate for the Sea 2008 - IMDb



    Ha I had to edit my post. Down the article I saw it said what I said. 

    I’ll check it out 
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    jpgoegel said:
    oh wow, I havent thought of Derrick Jensen in a long time.   his culture of make believe book was some really interesting stuff

    It is indeed.
    The latest post here are actually a bit off top but I didn't want to start yet another environmental thread.  I am tempted though.  The situation with SSCS (as in the link above) had a lot of folks in the world of ocean environmentalism really dismayed and unhappy (including myself).
    As bad as it sounds that tv show was my only real Paul Watson exposure. Whale Wars I think it was 
    kind of lost track after the first few seasons 

    That guy is great. He is sea shepherd 
    This!

    If you like that show, I think you would really appreciate this amazing documentary as well:
    Pirate for the Sea 2008 - IMDb



    Ha I had to edit my post. Down the article I saw it said what I said. 

    I’ll check it out 

    Great!  :plus_one:
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













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