She's a minor. I think that's what this is all about. The state couldn't pull this on an adult and get away with it.
yes, it is, but don't you agree it's quite silly that, according to our laws, that everyone in the country magically becomes competent at age 18? that's ludicrous. they obviously have to draw the line with some things somewhere, but to tell a 17 year old and her family that she requires treatment and she is being forced into it is just so beyond words for me.
But how - assuming she may not be considered competent solely due to her age (and I'm not sure I'm on board with that) - can her and her parents' wishes be trumped by some outside authority?
I guess I just feel for her.
I can imagine being 17 again, then faced with cancer, forced to be away from family, sick from unwanted treatment. It sounds like a nightmare and can't imagine how that would contribute to healing.
it sounds like something that would have happened in the 50's, to be honest.
in Sept. she can do as she wishes right ?
that aside..at the age of 17 even 21 we've made choices we now wish haddn't right ? if this were my child I don't believe I would let her refuse the treatment because there is so much she does not understand at that age, life has so much to offer..things she is not even aware of yet.
are there any 17- 18 year olds out there ? or anybody with children that age ? what would you do ?
Godfather.
I personally can't imagine supporting my child's wish to die when there is a good chance she would be cured and would live a full life. that is just beyond my capacity. Not sure how I would force her, but I'd do my best. Hold interventions with friends and family or something.
to me that's like supporting your child's wish for suicide. they are mentally ill, refuse medical treatment because of what the meds do to them, so they tell you they want to kill themselves, and the parent says "ok"?
But...refusing that particular treatment isn't necessarily equal to a desire to die. Perhaps there are other non-Western, non-traditional means they prefer? Perhaps she'd choose to forgo any treatment?
Perhaps she'd rather not take a gamble that the chemo wouldn't work and she'd have spent precious time sick?
I don't know, I really don't. I don't need to be a parent to see it from a human perspective, but I'm trying to see it from the patient's as well.
And yes, Hugh...something like out of a time warp.
But...refusing that particular treatment isn't necessarily equal to a desire to die. Perhaps there are other non-Western, non-traditional means they prefer? Perhaps she'd choose to forgo any treatment?
Perhaps she'd rather not take a gamble that the chemo wouldn't work and she'd have spent precious time sick?
I don't know, I really don't. I don't need to be a parent to see it from a human perspective, but I'm trying to see it from the patient's as well.
And yes, Hugh...something like out of a time warp.
true, I hadn't thought of alternative treatments.....probably what people meant about the article being incomplete.
a teacher I once had (ex-cop, tai chi "master"), once told us a story of a person in China that he knew that beat cancer through simply visualizing each day, for an hour or two, her white blood cells eradicating the cancer. He presented this to us as fact. Which is honestly impossible to quantify. Maybe they went into remission, but as far as "knowing" it was from their meditative activities can't ever be known.
edit: and yes, I get the part of not wanting to spend your final days sick. if it's terminal, absolutely I get that. I probably wouldn't either. But the article made it seem that her chances of survival were phenominal; I can't recall the percentage, but it was extremely high.
This article is indeed very poorly written, It's tendentious and doesn't give any information about, the chances of survival with or without chemo. It also doesn't give any info about alternative treatment possibilities. Besides It doesn't give any info on the quality of life after chemo. Chemo treatment can mean a lengthen of life, but that doesn't automatically mean that this lengthening has any quality.
I also don't believe that kids make choices of life and death, lightheaded. The have a longer life expectancy so that makes the choice even harder to make, because the have more to lose. You do not expect to die at such a young age.
By expanding the medical possibilities, mankind also has the responsibility to respect the boundaries individuals chose to sett for themselves, if you belief as I do in a right to choose for treatment, than the consequence is also the right to decline treatment.
I my opinion: this girl made a very difficult choice at such a young age, the hardest choice any person ever has to make. Every person who has such a choice in his or her life, makes the choice which fits him or her best. I think people can show respect for such a choice even if you yourself had chosen differently.
Post edited by Aafke on
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
This article is indeed very poorly written, It's tendentious and doesn't give any information about, the chances of survival with or without chemo. It also doesn't give any info about alternative treatment possibilities. Besides It doesn't give any info on the quality of life after chemo. Chemo treatment can mean a lengthen of life, but that doesn't automatically mean that this lengthening has any quality.
I also don't believe that kids make choices of life and death, lightheaded. The have a longer life expectancy so that makes the choice even harder to make, because the have more to lose. You do not expect to die at such a young age.
By expanding the medical possibilities, mankind also has the responsibility to respect the boundaries individuals chose to sett for themselves, if you belief as I do in a right to choose for treatment, than the consequence is also the right to decline treatment.
I my opinion: this girl made a very difficult choice at such a young age, the hardest choice any person ever has to make. Every person who has such a choice in his or her life, makes the choice which fits him or her best. I think people can show respect for such a choice even if you yourself had chosen differently.
While many kinds of cancers have a low success rate in terms of chemotherapy treatment, Hodgkin lymphoma is successfully treated with chemo 85 percent of the time when caught and treated early on, as would be the case in Cassandra’s treatment.
also:
Art Markman, PhD, a psychologist with the University of Texas says the psychological state of teens is notoriously “short-term focused” when it comes to their decision making,” says Markman. “A teen may also be so focused on the negatives associated with treatment, that it is important to get them to consider the long-term benefits of treatment — this is particularly true for cancers that are highly treatable
which I would agree with. that being said, I still think this girl should not be forced to undergo treatment, but I think her parents have a responsibility to make sure she's completely informed. Maybe they have, maybe they haven't. hard to say.
The discussion around this has been interesting enough that it prompted me to do more reading on this case, and on Hodgkin lymphoma, and a few things became more clear.
The survival rate for Hodgkin lymphoma at an early stage (Stage 1) in a young person is extremely high when treated, about 95%. This girl's chance of survival with treatment is being estimated at 85%, likely because she was already at Stage 3 or maybe even Stage 4 before treatment eventually got started. The chance of survival without any treatment? Nothing in life is absolute, but it is close to zero. Of course, there are no current trials on this as virtually no-one refuses treatment for Hodgkins, but in the days before there was any treatment the average lifespan was about 18 months, and virtually everyone was dead by 5 years, often of horrible complications.
So on to the specifics of this case. The main reason that this girl's doctors were concerned, and a significant reason that the court ruled as it did, is that neither the girl nor her mother believe she will die without treatment. In fact, her mother is quoted as saying "This is not about death," Fortin says. "My daughter is not going to die". Except that all available evidence suggest she will die without treatment, and neither the girl nor her mother apparently have provided a reasonable explanation for why they believe she won't die. For this reason, the court decided her decision was based on "magical thinking".
Someone is judged to be competent to make a medical decision if they understand what condition they have, what the natural course is without treatment, what the proposed treatment is, what the potential side effects of the treatment are, and can apply those facts to their own situation. Apparently the court felt she lacked appreciation of the natural course of her disease, and thus did not grant her application to be recognized as a Mature Minor.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Well then that's a fantastic argument in favor of the state which I wasn't fully aware of. And honestly I was sort of a fence sitter on this for a while. Even last night I had read some quotes that sounded as if the girl (contrary to what her mother is saying apparently) is all about death. She doesn't care if this takes her at 17 which at least takes this argument away from the effects of the chemo or the possible curative properties of alternative treatments. So if she were to say I don't want chemo AND I don't mind dying I would totally support her.
The link wont work for me so I reserved judgement until the sort of facts that oftenreading just presented were laid out, thinking it would crystallize my opinion. It did not.
Aafake, teenagers absolutely DO make life or death choices lightly! Teenagers are notorious for holding the belief that "it won't happen to me" when confronted with serious consequences...hence teen pregnancy, STD's, fast driving, binge drinking, and a litany of risky behaviors.
The fact that her and her mother think she won't die is shockingly ignorant. It makes me wonder are they religious nutjobs? Do they believe in hocusy pocusy spiritual healing, or the mother of all idiotic healthcare options: homepathy?? Have they never seen someone die of cancer? It seems to me they have never known anyone young and vital to die of cancer, if they had they would jump all over treatment. It does make me question the competence of their decision-making ability.
On the other hand, it is scary to think the government can force things like this on a person, bypassing the right of choosing wrong. I firmly believe in an adults right to choose poorly. Our freedom is our greatest accomplishment and one of our greatest detriments, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I guess, in the end, I side with the government on this one. Treatment until she turns 18 and is a legal adult. It is a bit of an arbitrary designation of adulthood, but you have to draw the line somewhere. More important than forcing treatment, the government needs to force education on these idiots. Take them to a terminal ward and make them spend time there. Show them with documents and clinical observation the ups and downs of treatment and the results of refusing treatment.
Aafke, teenagers absolutely DO make life or death choices lightly! Teenagers are notorious for holding the belief that "it won't happen to me" when confronted with serious consequences...hence teen pregnancy, STD's, fast driving, binge drinking, and a litany of risky behaviors.
T
Yes, I know teenagers make life or death choices lightly, as long as they believe they're invincible. I didn't think this was the case up until the indeed shocking ignorance of this girl and her mom, became clear to me. I was referring to seriously sick teens, who understand their sickness, and willingly choose to not get treated, for a disease where they will die from, if not treated.
I've witnessed some teens make these kind of choices, and have the greatest respect for them.
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
in Sept. she can do as she wishes right ?
that aside..at the age of 17 even 21 we've made choices we now wish haddn't right ? if this were my child I don't believe I would let her refuse the treatment because there is so much she does not understand at that age, life has so much to offer..things she is not even aware of yet.
are there any 17- 18 year olds out there ? or anybody with children that age ? what would you do ?
Godfather.
I personally can't imagine supporting my child's wish to die when there is a good chance she would be cured and would live a full life. that is just beyond my capacity. Not sure how I would force her, but I'd do my best. Hold interventions with friends and family or something.
to me that's like supporting your child's wish for suicide. they are mentally ill, refuse medical treatment because of what the meds do to them, so they tell you they want to kill themselves, and the parent says "ok"?
I've read only a bit beyond the initial (lacking) article; again - and maybe it colored my view? - I was focusing more on the prospect of choice taken away...by which I still stand.
Suppose I should search out more information on this particular instance.
I've read only a bit beyond the initial (lacking) article; again - and maybe it colored my view? - I was focusing more on the prospect of choice taken away...by which I still stand.
Suppose I should search out more information on this particular instance.
Hedonist, you are absolute right that the issue of choice being taken away rightly causes concern. I think this is one of those unfortunate situations where there is no unequivocally good choice that would satisfy everyone. The court's choice in this case doesn't feel great but the alternative feels even worse. Those tough cases where human rights and autonomy bump up against care for people who might not be competent to care for themselves are always difficult.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
if she were my daughter(I have a 16 year old) I would stand by her totally compus decision to refuse treatment. and then wed go live in the woods so that the authorities couldn't usurp her sovereignty over her own body.
What would you do if she was not making a "totally compus" decision?
well knowing her as I do thered be no doubt in my mind after having everything laid out before her that the decision she made would be nothing but.
Well, but the question wasn't really "do you think your child would make a competent decision?", it was "what would you do if she weren't?".
There are a few different reasons why someone might not be competent to make that decision. Cognitive immaturity would be one potential reason, but 17 is also in the ballpark of prime age for development of serious mental illness.
then I would use my parental rights and refuse treatment on her behalf. Simple.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
honestly, with the mother believing the child will be ok without treatment, I am airing on the side of the courts here. but it's obviously not black and white.
Her decision. 100%. 17 is old enough to make that choice.
I'm just curious, not attacking your opinion or anything. I just want to understand your thoughts as a father. You said you have a 13 year old daughter. If she was 17 and was told she needed chemo to continue living, and the chances of it saving her life are pretty high, would you be ok with her saying no, she doesn't want to do it? Could you stand by and watch her die a painful death knowing that there is a great chance she would be healthy if she would have just taken the chemo?
Call me what you want, but I couldn't let my daughter give up that easily at 17. Yes there's a chance the chemo might not work but in my opinion, the chance has to be taken. There is so much to live for and if she decided not to do it, I would spend the rest of my life wondering what if...
Well at any rate, the 11 year old aboriginal girl whose family refused chemotherapy after a few treatments died, and the parents are blaming her death on the little chemotherapy she did get before they decided to stop all modern treatment methods. :-<
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Well at any rate, the 11 year old aboriginal girl whose family refused chemotherapy after a few treatments died, and the parents are blaming her death on the little chemotherapy she did get before they decided to stop all modern treatment methods. :-<
Yes, I read about that - so terribly sad. According to the family she didn't die of cancer, she died of "western medicine".
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Comments
yes, it is, but don't you agree it's quite silly that, according to our laws, that everyone in the country magically becomes competent at age 18? that's ludicrous. they obviously have to draw the line with some things somewhere, but to tell a 17 year old and her family that she requires treatment and she is being forced into it is just so beyond words for me.
www.headstonesband.com
it sounds like something that would have happened in the 50's, to be honest.
www.headstonesband.com
I personally can't imagine supporting my child's wish to die when there is a good chance she would be cured and would live a full life. that is just beyond my capacity. Not sure how I would force her, but I'd do my best. Hold interventions with friends and family or something.
to me that's like supporting your child's wish for suicide. they are mentally ill, refuse medical treatment because of what the meds do to them, so they tell you they want to kill themselves, and the parent says "ok"?
www.headstonesband.com
Perhaps she'd rather not take a gamble that the chemo wouldn't work and she'd have spent precious time sick?
I don't know, I really don't. I don't need to be a parent to see it from a human perspective, but I'm trying to see it from the patient's as well.
And yes, Hugh...something like out of a time warp.
true, I hadn't thought of alternative treatments.....probably what people meant about the article being incomplete.
a teacher I once had (ex-cop, tai chi "master"), once told us a story of a person in China that he knew that beat cancer through simply visualizing each day, for an hour or two, her white blood cells eradicating the cancer. He presented this to us as fact. Which is honestly impossible to quantify. Maybe they went into remission, but as far as "knowing" it was from their meditative activities can't ever be known.
edit: and yes, I get the part of not wanting to spend your final days sick. if it's terminal, absolutely I get that. I probably wouldn't either. But the article made it seem that her chances of survival were phenominal; I can't recall the percentage, but it was extremely high.
www.headstonesband.com
I also don't believe that kids make choices of life and death, lightheaded. The have a longer life expectancy so that makes the choice even harder to make, because the have more to lose. You do not expect to die at such a young age.
By expanding the medical possibilities, mankind also has the responsibility to respect the boundaries individuals chose to sett for themselves, if you belief as I do in a right to choose for treatment, than the consequence is also the right to decline treatment.
I my opinion: this girl made a very difficult choice at such a young age, the hardest choice any person ever has to make. Every person who has such a choice in his or her life, makes the choice which fits him or her best. I think people can show respect for such a choice even if you yourself had chosen differently.
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
While many kinds of cancers have a low success rate in terms of chemotherapy treatment, Hodgkin lymphoma is successfully treated with chemo 85 percent of the time when caught and treated early on, as would be the case in Cassandra’s treatment.
also:
Art Markman, PhD, a psychologist with the University of Texas says the psychological state of teens is notoriously “short-term focused” when it comes to their decision making,” says Markman. “A teen may also be so focused on the negatives associated with treatment, that it is important to get them to consider the long-term benefits of treatment — this is particularly true for cancers that are highly treatable
which I would agree with. that being said, I still think this girl should not be forced to undergo treatment, but I think her parents have a responsibility to make sure she's completely informed. Maybe they have, maybe they haven't. hard to say.
www.headstonesband.com
The survival rate for Hodgkin lymphoma at an early stage (Stage 1) in a young person is extremely high when treated, about 95%. This girl's chance of survival with treatment is being estimated at 85%, likely because she was already at Stage 3 or maybe even Stage 4 before treatment eventually got started. The chance of survival without any treatment? Nothing in life is absolute, but it is close to zero. Of course, there are no current trials on this as virtually no-one refuses treatment for Hodgkins, but in the days before there was any treatment the average lifespan was about 18 months, and virtually everyone was dead by 5 years, often of horrible complications.
So on to the specifics of this case. The main reason that this girl's doctors were concerned, and a significant reason that the court ruled as it did, is that neither the girl nor her mother believe she will die without treatment. In fact, her mother is quoted as saying "This is not about death," Fortin says. "My daughter is not going to die". Except that all available evidence suggest she will die without treatment, and neither the girl nor her mother apparently have provided a reasonable explanation for why they believe she won't die. For this reason, the court decided her decision was based on "magical thinking".
Someone is judged to be competent to make a medical decision if they understand what condition they have, what the natural course is without treatment, what the proposed treatment is, what the potential side effects of the treatment are, and can apply those facts to their own situation. Apparently the court felt she lacked appreciation of the natural course of her disease, and thus did not grant her application to be recognized as a Mature Minor.
Aafake, teenagers absolutely DO make life or death choices lightly! Teenagers are notorious for holding the belief that "it won't happen to me" when confronted with serious consequences...hence teen pregnancy, STD's, fast driving, binge drinking, and a litany of risky behaviors.
The fact that her and her mother think she won't die is shockingly ignorant. It makes me wonder are they religious nutjobs? Do they believe in hocusy pocusy spiritual healing, or the mother of all idiotic healthcare options: homepathy?? Have they never seen someone die of cancer? It seems to me they have never known anyone young and vital to die of cancer, if they had they would jump all over treatment. It does make me question the competence of their decision-making ability.
On the other hand, it is scary to think the government can force things like this on a person, bypassing the right of choosing wrong. I firmly believe in an adults right to choose poorly. Our freedom is our greatest accomplishment and one of our greatest detriments, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
I guess, in the end, I side with the government on this one. Treatment until she turns 18 and is a legal adult. It is a bit of an arbitrary designation of adulthood, but you have to draw the line somewhere. More important than forcing treatment, the government needs to force education on these idiots. Take them to a terminal ward and make them spend time there. Show them with documents and clinical observation the ups and downs of treatment and the results of refusing treatment.
Yes, I know teenagers make life or death choices lightly, as long as they believe they're invincible. I didn't think this was the case up until the indeed shocking ignorance of this girl and her mom, became clear to me. I was referring to seriously sick teens, who understand their sickness, and willingly choose to not get treated, for a disease where they will die from, if not treated.
I've witnessed some teens make these kind of choices, and have the greatest respect for them.
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
In the end, the issue of this choice being made by the government is where my worry lies.
fully agree.
Godfather.
www.headstonesband.com
Probably think all she needs is raw veggies and coffee enemas. Or prayer.
:-?
Suppose I should search out more information on this particular instance.
then I would use my parental rights and refuse treatment on her behalf. Simple.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
www.headstonesband.com
I'm just curious, not attacking your opinion or anything. I just want to understand your thoughts as a father. You said you have a 13 year old daughter. If she was 17 and was told she needed chemo to continue living, and the chances of it saving her life are pretty high, would you be ok with her saying no, she doesn't want to do it? Could you stand by and watch her die a painful death knowing that there is a great chance she would be healthy if she would have just taken the chemo?
Call me what you want, but I couldn't let my daughter give up that easily at 17. Yes there's a chance the chemo might not work but in my opinion, the chance has to be taken. There is so much to live for and if she decided not to do it, I would spend the rest of my life wondering what if...
Peace
Yes, I read about that - so terribly sad. According to the family she didn't die of cancer, she died of "western medicine".