A conversation with a Rabbi

benjs

I'm hoping this doesn't come back to bite me in the ass, but I wanted to share a correspondence I had with a Rabbi recently over Facebook. He emigrated to Israel from Canada, where I knew him personally.

Me:
Hey (Redacted), I just needed to say this. Inasmuch as you find yourself an ambassador to the Jews, i think your naiveté comes through in your predetermined notion that these attacks in Israel are attacks against Jews. They are attacks on the Jewish superiority within the region, and Jews by extension of that. The causality is important to study (i.e. what came first, the aggression from Arabs towards Jews, or the development of the Zionist movement), and I've found a grand total of perhaps two Jews in all of Toronto willing to entertain that thought. if you want your god (who, by the way, is not my god in spite of the people I was born to) to bring a complete recovery to those injured, maybe you should look at the imbalances in treatment between Jews and Muslims within the region and start to push for the abolishment of that fascist notion of superiority we as Jews have claimed for far too long. A while back you called me a contrarian and stressed the importance to seek facts, but while that may have been true when we knew each other, I assure you, that's not the case. I follow logic and have no desire to choose an opinion predicated upon how popular or unpopular it will be. I just want this bullshit to stop. And if you think I'm wrong and you can tell me with a straight face that Israeli Jewish society treats Israeli Muslims, Bedouins, Ethiopian Jews the exact same and that this is reflected all of politically, financially, and societally, I'm happy to revisit my stance. My only commitment is to an opinion based on logic, which tells me there's a real issue here and that not all is as it seems, and certainly not as my Jewish parents, school, and peers have indoctrinated me to believe for my whole life. And by the way - I'm not the only one with this moral dilemma. It's time for Israel and Israelis to start concerning itself with what is right and not what is best, or you risk losing the unequivocal support from global Jewry. At some point, something's got to give.

Rabbi:
Ben unfortunately you are blind. Islam is against all people other than themselves. They are even against their own brothers and sisters who dont see things the way they see fit. It is happening everywhere in the world not just in Israel.They would love to see you and your family in Toronto dead in a pool of your own blood. I'm sorry that you dont understand this. May God watch over you so that you won't have to learn this lesson the hard way. No need to respond.

Frankly, I don't care to discuss the Rabbi's absurd allegation that Islam and its members care to watch me and my family die, which in no way, shape, or form do I believe to be the case. What I'd like to ask is how, historically, campaigns of wrongful indoctrination have been ended. For example, how was the notion of white supremacy eliminated post-Apartheid in South Africa, or in the States post-slavery, or how was the notion of Aryan supremacy eliminated post-Nazi regime?

And could these have mentalities have ended prior to (and expedited) the abolishment of the injustice itself? Were there signs of this being the case that I don't know about?

rr165892

Ben,I always appreciate your well thought out post and contributions to this forum.I enjoy reading them as they make me think.
You are correct in many ways with your thinking,but You will find few within the Jewish Hierarchy sharing your common sense views.
The Rabbi like most in his position answered as expected(I almost guessed his response prior to reading it).
I just don't see any forward movement in the near future as the extremist on both sides continue to grow in numbers and the rhetoric and actions gets nastier

Idris

-Its time for Israel and Israelis to start concerning itself with what is right and not what is best.
-

Is doing whats 'right'...not also what is 'best'?

benjs

Idris said:

-Its time for Israel and Israelis to start concerning itself with what is right and not what is best.
-

Is doing whats 'right'...not also what is 'best'?

Sorry - that sentence was definitely incomplete. I meant they should be doing what's right, and not what's best for themselves

Idris

benjs said:

Idris said:

-Its time for Israel and Israelis to start concerning itself with what is right and not what is best.
-

Is doing whats 'right'...not also what is 'best'?

Sorry - that sentence was definitely incomplete. I meant they should be doing what's right, and not what's best for themselves

Surely doing whats 'right' is inherently 'what's best' anyway. (for ourselves).
(Perhaps not always in the short term, but eventually)

So Israelis can still do what is best for themselves, but a realization has to occur, the realization that whats best for them is doing what is 'right'.

So what is 'right'?

badbrains

Ben, I to always appreciate reading your posts. My man knows how to write/question.

mickeyrat

badbrains said:

Ben, I to always appreciate reading your posts. My man knows how to write/question.

True but to be honest he was in part antagonistic in some wording/tone. Suggested to me a made up mind despite a line to the contrary.

benjs

Idris said:

benjs said:

Idris said:

-Its time for Israel and Israelis to start concerning itself with what is right and not what is best.
-

Is doing whats 'right'...not also what is 'best'?

Sorry - that sentence was definitely incomplete. I meant they should be doing what's right, and not what's best for themselves

Surely doing whats 'right' is inherently 'what's best' anyway. (for ourselves).
(Perhaps not always in the short term, but eventually)

So Israelis can still do what is best for themselves, but a realization has to occur, the realization that whats best for them is doing what is 'right'.

So what is 'right'?

Idris, I think the key point you brought up is the time factor. Over enough of a time span, I can imagine that the 'best' thing for a people to do likely does turn out to be the 'right' thing: especially in this day and age where anyone can become a media broadcaster if they have a computer, a camera, and something to say. That's enough to create momentum for significant change, and create serious conflict if change isn't brought around (like an intifada).

In the short-term, however, I'd be naive to say that true equality in the region will be 'best' for Israelis, as that would involve a transfer of power from Jews to non-Jews, and people don't typically take kindly to being asked to be rendered less powerful without serious pressure.

What would be great is for Israel to pivot to longer-term pro-active thinking (where 'best' actions align with 'right' or 'just' actions) instead of reactive thinking (where that's not necessarily the case), but unfortunately, I don't see that happening under Netanyahu. Societal bridging between people of all religion and race is a crucial first step, and he shows no signs of desiring anything like that. Rather, increased isolationism amongst Jewish communities as indicated in his Jewish nation-state policies suggest that he'd rather less intermingling, not more.

brianlux

Very interesting interaction between you and the Rabbi, benjs. It's especially bold of you as a person of Jewish background to speak out against the outrageous treatment of Israel toward, as you say, Israeli Muslims, Bedouins, Ethiopian Jews.

The Rabbi makes one point that is undeniably partially true which is that some (that's the part he left out) radical Islamist members are "against all people other than themselves" and would like to see them "dead in a pool of [their] own blood". What I think would be helpful would be to have a better understanding and documented proof of the small percentage of those Muslims who feel that way and for more Muslims, like our good man bb has done elsewhere, to make clear that it is, indeed, a small percentage radical Muslims who are so full of hate and are blood thirsty extremists. (Please correct me if I am in error on any of this, benjs or bb! I'm just trying to learn and understand here.)

Thanks for sharing your story with us.

benjs

brianlux said:

Very interesting interaction between you and the Rabbi, benjs. It's especially bold of you as a person of Jewish background to speak out against the outrageous treatment of Israel toward, as you say, Israeli Muslims, Bedouins, Ethiopian Jews.

The Rabbi makes one point that is undeniably partially true which is that some (that's the part he left out) radical Islamist members are "against all people other than themselves" and would like to see them "dead in a pool of [their] own blood". What I think would be helpful would be to have a better understanding and documented proof of the small percentage of those Muslims who feel that way and for more Muslims, like our good man bb has done elsewhere, to make clear that it is, indeed, a small percentage radical Muslims who are so full of hate and are blood thirsty extremists. (Please correct me if I am in error on any of this, benjs or bb! I'm just trying to learn and understand here.)

Thanks for sharing your story with us.

Brian, I agree with you entirely. It's getting people to understand that distinction between radicalism and moderate, fair, and just existences that's the tough sell, or so it seems. Part of the lack of recognition of radicalism in others might be because, in so many ways, Israeli lives have contained elements of radicalism inherently for so long now:

-Identifying one group as belonging to an elevated status: check
-Acting in ways of mass oppression and control of day-to-day life: check
-Recruiting with acts of propaganda: check
-Displaying lack of empathy towards those affected, while pushing forward with complete commitment to an end goal: check

So, maybe the next challenge becomes how to propose to Israelis that they start looking for these traits in themselves. I've always noticed that in life, there are things within your control, and things outside of your control. In both defining your state of mind, and your actions, these should be defined by things within your control. And what more of an obvious controllable entity is there than ourselves?

Edit: I realized I wasn't as clear in this as I had hoped to be. What I meant to say is that this notion of the 'gap' between moderatism and radicalism might not be present within Israeli culture, or at least not to the degree of discrepancy within modern Islam. As a result, acknowledging this gap might be a foreign notion to some Israelis. But I can only surmise without an Israeli opinion or several to validate or challenge this notion.