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Marvel Cinematic Universe Movie Thread

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  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 24,402
    dankind said:
    goldrush said:
    igotid88 said:

    They brought back Doc Oc?  Interesting.
    Doc Oc and Jamie Fox’s Electro are in it. There’s also a load of rumours that Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield are in it too.
    It's de facto confirmed. 

    You forgot about Green Goblin which is confirmed now by the goblin bomb in the trailer.

    And also:

    Rhino and Sandman. You can see some Sandman sand in the trailer.

    Oh that's right!

    I want them to bring in tombstone. tarantula, rhino, Morbius.

    Will it be green goblin or Hobgoblin though.  Harry is dead so Hobgoblin should be next.
    It's Willem Defoe.



    Morbius is getting it's own movie by the way (Swedish director), but set in the Tobey Maguire-Spiderman universe. MCU Vulture pops up in that trailer.
    Again, I thought Harry(Defoe) was dead? And Norman is dead?

    Alternate universe stuff I guess? 

    I can't wait for the Venom/Spiderman xover!!!
    Isn't this what most folks refer to as Spider-Man 3?
    That was a friggin joke...
    Tom Hardy doesn't believe it to be a joke. He is trying to make it happen.

    And there were rumours about Tom Holland shooting a small scene for the first Venom, but Marvel told Sony to remove it.
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 24,402
    edited August 24
    goldrush said:
    igotid88 said:

    They brought back Doc Oc?  Interesting.
    Doc Oc and Jamie Fox’s Electro are in it. There’s also a load of rumours that Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield are in it too.
    It's de facto confirmed. 

    You forgot about Green Goblin which is confirmed now by the goblin bomb in the trailer.

    And also:

    Rhino and Sandman. You can see some Sandman sand in the trailer.

    Oh that's right!

    I want them to bring in tombstone. tarantula, rhino, Morbius.

    Will it be green goblin or Hobgoblin though.  Harry is dead so Hobgoblin should be next.
    It's Willem Defoe.



    Morbius is getting it's own movie by the way (Swedish director), but set in the Tobey Maguire-Spiderman universe. MCU Vulture pops up in that trailer.
    Again, I thought Harry(Defoe) was dead? And Norman is dead?
    Doc Ock died in Spider-Man 2 also...

    And Dafoe played Norman. James Franco played Harry.
    Dock oc went down but wasn't actually dead?

    James, Defoe, who gives a shit, they both are dead too.
    Always seemed dead to me:



    Doesn't matter - this is multiverse madness and from details of how and why things happens (from the teaser trailer too). Safe to say - Dock Ock died in Spider-Man 2.

    Electro died to. And Jamie Foxx himself has confirmed he is back.
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 26,045
    New MJ 1,000,000 times better than original MJ, hope they don't bring her back.
    Better than Kersten Dunst?  Cmon.

    They don't even try to make her a redhead anymore...It's not even Mary Jane anymore... She's Michelle.
    Yes, I think she is that many times better.  I have no live for Kirsten Dunst.  Think this actress and the character in this newer version is the best.
    Don't care if MJ is a ginger or not.
    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,225
    New MJ 1,000,000 times better than original MJ, hope they don't bring her back.
    Better than Kersten Dunst?  Cmon.

    They don't even try to make her a redhead anymore...It's not even Mary Jane anymore... She's Michelle.
    Yes, I think she is that many times better.  I have no live for Kirsten Dunst.  Think this actress and the character in this newer version is the best.
    Don't care if MJ is a ginger or not.
    It's also not MJ as MJ.  It's a Michelle instead of a Mary too...

    You read the comics for so long and it throws you for a loop.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,225
    goldrush said:
    igotid88 said:

    They brought back Doc Oc?  Interesting.
    Doc Oc and Jamie Fox’s Electro are in it. There’s also a load of rumours that Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield are in it too.
    It's de facto confirmed. 

    You forgot about Green Goblin which is confirmed now by the goblin bomb in the trailer.

    And also:

    Rhino and Sandman. You can see some Sandman sand in the trailer.

    Oh that's right!

    I want them to bring in tombstone. tarantula, rhino, Morbius.

    Will it be green goblin or Hobgoblin though.  Harry is dead so Hobgoblin should be next.
    It's Willem Defoe.



    Morbius is getting it's own movie by the way (Swedish director), but set in the Tobey Maguire-Spiderman universe. MCU Vulture pops up in that trailer.
    Again, I thought Harry(Defoe) was dead? And Norman is dead?
    Doc Ock died in Spider-Man 2 also...

    And Dafoe played Norman. James Franco played Harry.
    Dock oc went down but wasn't actually dead?

    James, Defoe, who gives a shit, they both are dead too.
    Always seemed dead to me:



    Doesn't matter - this is multiverse madness and from details of how and why things happens (from the teaser trailer too). Safe to say - Dock Ock died in Spider-Man 2.

    Electro died to. And Jamie Foxx himself has confirmed he is back.
    I mentioned the multi universe thing earlier and got nadda...

    I thought it would be silly to kill doc oc off, just like it's ludacrous to kill off the Joker or Lex Luthor or the Kingpin or Destro, etc, etc.

    And yes Spiderman 3 stunk as far as unleashing Venom.
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 24,402
    I hope there once in my lifetime will be a series of Spider-Man movies that don't fuck up the Gwen Stacy/MJ/Peter Parker dynamic and chronology. 
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 8,235
    Doctor Strange is what allows them to have all these cameos of past villains (and maybe even Spider-Man actors) as Spider-Man travels through the multiverse. I hope it doesn't just turn in to a nostalgia trip. Concepts like this often interfere with having a well written story. First hiccup to me seems to be that Strange even casts the spell.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 24,402
    edited August 24
    No Spider-Man has ever looked as good as in ASM2 though:



    WHERE ARE THE SUITS' WRINKLES MCU SPIDER-MAN - WHERE ARE THEY?
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,225
    tbergs said:
    Doctor Strange is what allows them to have all these cameos of past villains (and maybe even Spider-Man actors) as Spider-Man travels through the multiverse. I hope it doesn't just turn in to a nostalgia trip. Concepts like this often interfere with having a well written story. First hiccup to me seems to be that Strange even casts the spell.
    I'm not that big of a fanboy but I'm wondering if it follows the "What if" series.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,225
    I hope there once in my lifetime will be a series of Spider-Man movies that don't fuck up the Gwen Stacy/MJ/Peter Parker dynamic and chronology. 
    They would have to redo the whole series again.
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 24,402
    goldrush said:
    igotid88 said:

    They brought back Doc Oc?  Interesting.
    Doc Oc and Jamie Fox’s Electro are in it. There’s also a load of rumours that Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield are in it too.
    It's de facto confirmed. 

    You forgot about Green Goblin which is confirmed now by the goblin bomb in the trailer.

    And also:

    Rhino and Sandman. You can see some Sandman sand in the trailer.

    Oh that's right!

    I want them to bring in tombstone. tarantula, rhino, Morbius.

    Will it be green goblin or Hobgoblin though.  Harry is dead so Hobgoblin should be next.
    It's Willem Defoe.



    Morbius is getting it's own movie by the way (Swedish director), but set in the Tobey Maguire-Spiderman universe. MCU Vulture pops up in that trailer.
    Again, I thought Harry(Defoe) was dead? And Norman is dead?
    Doc Ock died in Spider-Man 2 also...

    And Dafoe played Norman. James Franco played Harry.
    Dock oc went down but wasn't actually dead?

    James, Defoe, who gives a shit, they both are dead too.
    Always seemed dead to me:



    Doesn't matter - this is multiverse madness and from details of how and why things happens (from the teaser trailer too). Safe to say - Dock Ock died in Spider-Man 2.

    Electro died to. And Jamie Foxx himself has confirmed he is back.
    I mentioned the multi universe thing earlier and got nadda...

    I thought it would be silly to kill doc oc off, just like it's ludacrous to kill off the Joker or Lex Luthor or the Kingpin or Destro, etc, etc.

    And yes Spiderman 3 stunk as far as unleashing Venom.
    Comic book villains shouldn't be killed of. That tradition in story telling is shit. That is one good thing they did in Batman Forever with the Riddler - ending with him in Arkham reminding kids that "one day Jim Carrey might return". Same with Joker in The Dark Knight.

    If you want the leaked plot of this film:

    The villains are being plucked from their universes just before their demise. MCU-Spiderman needs to go get Garfield and Maguire to help out fighting them.


    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 24,402
    Another spoiler of someone who is returning

    Matt Murdoch from the Netflix Daredevil show, as Peter Parkers attourney

    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 24,402
    I hope there once in my lifetime will be a series of Spider-Man movies that don't fuck up the Gwen Stacy/MJ/Peter Parker dynamic and chronology. 
    They would have to redo the whole series again.
    I hoped they would correct this in The Amazing Spider-Man-movies with Gwen coming before MJ. But then it felt like that whole series tried to do "new" things just to be different from Sam Raimis films. Which irked me from the get go.

    But yeah. Maybe the fourth re-do will do the trick!

    MCU Spider-Man feels off-brand too me. Like if it was a DC comics version of their own "spider hero" or a chinese bootleg-version. Too much MCU in that Spider-Man universe. 

    And Vulture should have been played by Robert Englund - FOR SURE:




    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,225
    goldrush said:
    igotid88 said:

    They brought back Doc Oc?  Interesting.
    Doc Oc and Jamie Fox’s Electro are in it. There’s also a load of rumours that Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield are in it too.
    It's de facto confirmed. 

    You forgot about Green Goblin which is confirmed now by the goblin bomb in the trailer.

    And also:

    Rhino and Sandman. You can see some Sandman sand in the trailer.

    Oh that's right!

    I want them to bring in tombstone. tarantula, rhino, Morbius.

    Will it be green goblin or Hobgoblin though.  Harry is dead so Hobgoblin should be next.
    It's Willem Defoe.



    Morbius is getting it's own movie by the way (Swedish director), but set in the Tobey Maguire-Spiderman universe. MCU Vulture pops up in that trailer.
    Again, I thought Harry(Defoe) was dead? And Norman is dead?
    Doc Ock died in Spider-Man 2 also...

    And Dafoe played Norman. James Franco played Harry.
    Dock oc went down but wasn't actually dead?

    James, Defoe, who gives a shit, they both are dead too.
    Always seemed dead to me:



    Doesn't matter - this is multiverse madness and from details of how and why things happens (from the teaser trailer too). Safe to say - Dock Ock died in Spider-Man 2.

    Electro died to. And Jamie Foxx himself has confirmed he is back.
    I mentioned the multi universe thing earlier and got nadda...

    I thought it would be silly to kill doc oc off, just like it's ludacrous to kill off the Joker or Lex Luthor or the Kingpin or Destro, etc, etc.

    And yes Spiderman 3 stunk as far as unleashing Venom.
    Comic book villains shouldn't be killed of. That tradition in story telling is shit. That is one good thing they did in Batman Forever with the Riddler - ending with him in Arkham reminding kids that "one day Jim Carrey might return". Same with Joker in The Dark Knight.

    If you want the leaked plot of this film:

    The villains are being plucked from their universes just before their demise. MCU-Spiderman needs to go get Garfield and Maguire to help out fighting them.


    Sending them to Arkham has always been part of Batman comics.  Killing them off like Batmans Joker in the 1989 film, no.

    I read your spoilers.  Recycling an idea from a previous movie...
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 24,402
    goldrush said:
    igotid88 said:

    They brought back Doc Oc?  Interesting.
    Doc Oc and Jamie Fox’s Electro are in it. There’s also a load of rumours that Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield are in it too.
    It's de facto confirmed. 

    You forgot about Green Goblin which is confirmed now by the goblin bomb in the trailer.

    And also:

    Rhino and Sandman. You can see some Sandman sand in the trailer.

    Oh that's right!

    I want them to bring in tombstone. tarantula, rhino, Morbius.

    Will it be green goblin or Hobgoblin though.  Harry is dead so Hobgoblin should be next.
    It's Willem Defoe.



    Morbius is getting it's own movie by the way (Swedish director), but set in the Tobey Maguire-Spiderman universe. MCU Vulture pops up in that trailer.
    Again, I thought Harry(Defoe) was dead? And Norman is dead?
    Doc Ock died in Spider-Man 2 also...

    And Dafoe played Norman. James Franco played Harry.
    Dock oc went down but wasn't actually dead?

    James, Defoe, who gives a shit, they both are dead too.
    Always seemed dead to me:



    Doesn't matter - this is multiverse madness and from details of how and why things happens (from the teaser trailer too). Safe to say - Dock Ock died in Spider-Man 2.

    Electro died to. And Jamie Foxx himself has confirmed he is back.
    I mentioned the multi universe thing earlier and got nadda...

    I thought it would be silly to kill doc oc off, just like it's ludacrous to kill off the Joker or Lex Luthor or the Kingpin or Destro, etc, etc.

    And yes Spiderman 3 stunk as far as unleashing Venom.
    Comic book villains shouldn't be killed of. That tradition in story telling is shit. That is one good thing they did in Batman Forever with the Riddler - ending with him in Arkham reminding kids that "one day Jim Carrey might return". Same with Joker in The Dark Knight.

    If you want the leaked plot of this film:

    The villains are being plucked from their universes just before their demise. MCU-Spiderman needs to go get Garfield and Maguire to help out fighting them.


    Sending them to Arkham has always been part of Batman comics.  Killing them off like Batmans Joker in the 1989 film, no.

    I read your spoilers.  Recycling an idea from a previous movie...
    What is recycled?
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 24,402


    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 26,045
    edited August 24
    New MJ 1,000,000 times better than original MJ, hope they don't bring her back.
    Better than Kersten Dunst?  Cmon.

    They don't even try to make her a redhead anymore...It's not even Mary Jane anymore... She's Michelle.
    Yes, I think she is that many times better.  I have no live for Kirsten Dunst.  Think this actress and the character in this newer version is the best.
    Don't care if MJ is a ginger or not.
    It's also not MJ as MJ.  It's a Michelle instead of a Mary too...

    You read the comics for so long and it throws you for a loop.
    I guess you read them longer than I did.  Spider Man was a mainstay (I believe there were three monthly titles?) for years when I was a kid.  Sure I still have hundreds of them, all mixed up in boxes and in rough shape.  I loved Spider Man.  Haven't read comics much since I was probably 15-16.  Once I got a car and license, girls pretty much demolished comic books.  :lol:. No money to spend on comics at that point.
    (Not to say I didn't read some, but was never again a monthly buyer.)
    Anyway, I just think Dunst is totally lame as an actress.
    Also, I know too much about Tobey, who is a piece a crap dude irl.  
    Those movies take a big time back seat to this version, and they all are dwarfed by how damn cool Into The Spider-verse was, to me.

    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • dankinddankind I am not your foot. Posts: 18,805
    Don’t play poker with Tobey, right?
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 26,045
    dankind said:
    Don’t play poker with Tobey, right?
    Among other things, yes.  
    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • igotid88igotid88 Posts: 21,663
    goldrush said:
    igotid88 said:

    They brought back Doc Oc?  Interesting.
    Doc Oc and Jamie Fox’s Electro are in it. There’s also a load of rumours that Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield are in it too.
    It's de facto confirmed. 

    You forgot about Green Goblin which is confirmed now by the goblin bomb in the trailer (and a leaked photo).

    And also:

    Rhino, Lizard and Sandman. You can see some Sandman sand in the trailer.

    You also hear his voice
    I miss igotid88
  • igotid88igotid88 Posts: 21,663
    This Aunt May is better than all the MJ's. If we're talking looks. 
    I miss igotid88
  • igotid88igotid88 Posts: 21,663
    Also Matt Murdock from Netflix Daredevil might be in that police room scene
    I miss igotid88
  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 26,045
    igotid88 said:
    This Aunt May is better than all the MJ's. If we're talking looks. 
    Funny, the 7 year old was reading a spider man book today and they showed Aunt May.  First thing I thought was how they upgraded Aunt May massively in the recent Spider Man movies, as well.


    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 24,402
    igotid88 said:
    goldrush said:
    igotid88 said:

    They brought back Doc Oc?  Interesting.
    Doc Oc and Jamie Fox’s Electro are in it. There’s also a load of rumours that Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield are in it too.
    It's de facto confirmed. 

    You forgot about Green Goblin which is confirmed now by the goblin bomb in the trailer (and a leaked photo).

    And also:

    Rhino, Lizard and Sandman. You can see some Sandman sand in the trailer.

    You also hear his voice
    Yes, true, his laughter. 
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 24,402
    edited August 25
    igotid88 said:
    This Aunt May is better than all the MJ's. If we're talking looks. 
    Good for you.

    Rosemary Harris was good in Raimis "let's make a live comic book"-way. Looks the part. Everything was a bit stylistic in those films. A bit of theater. 

    I find Sally Field being the best character/acting wise (Martin Sheen was good too as Uncle Ben). She and Andrew Garfield I found worked well together.

    igotid88 said:
    Also Matt Murdock from Netflix Daredevil might be in that police room scene
    Nothing points to him being in that police room scene, from what we've seen in the trailer. 

    Rumors say he is Peters attorney though. And is used in future Marvel projects (She Hulk etc)

    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,225
    edited August 25
    goldrush said:
    igotid88 said:

    They brought back Doc Oc?  Interesting.
    Doc Oc and Jamie Fox’s Electro are in it. There’s also a load of rumours that Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield are in it too.
    It's de facto confirmed. 

    You forgot about Green Goblin which is confirmed now by the goblin bomb in the trailer.

    And also:

    Rhino and Sandman. You can see some Sandman sand in the trailer.

    Oh that's right!

    I want them to bring in tombstone. tarantula, rhino, Morbius.

    Will it be green goblin or Hobgoblin though.  Harry is dead so Hobgoblin should be next.
    It's Willem Defoe.



    Morbius is getting it's own movie by the way (Swedish director), but set in the Tobey Maguire-Spiderman universe. MCU Vulture pops up in that trailer.
    Again, I thought Harry(Defoe) was dead? And Norman is dead?
    Doc Ock died in Spider-Man 2 also...

    And Dafoe played Norman. James Franco played Harry.
    Dock oc went down but wasn't actually dead?

    James, Defoe, who gives a shit, they both are dead too.
    Always seemed dead to me:



    Doesn't matter - this is multiverse madness and from details of how and why things happens (from the teaser trailer too). Safe to say - Dock Ock died in Spider-Man 2.

    Electro died to. And Jamie Foxx himself has confirmed he is back.
    I mentioned the multi universe thing earlier and got nadda...

    I thought it would be silly to kill doc oc off, just like it's ludacrous to kill off the Joker or Lex Luthor or the Kingpin or Destro, etc, etc.

    And yes Spiderman 3 stunk as far as unleashing Venom.
    Comic book villains shouldn't be killed of. That tradition in story telling is shit. That is one good thing they did in Batman Forever with the Riddler - ending with him in Arkham reminding kids that "one day Jim Carrey might return". Same with Joker in The Dark Knight.

    If you want the leaked plot of this film:

    The villains are being plucked from their universes just before their demise. MCU-Spiderman needs to go get Garfield and Maguire to help out fighting them.


    Sending them to Arkham has always been part of Batman comics.  Killing them off like Batmans Joker in the 1989 film, no.

    I read your spoilers.  Recycling an idea from a previous movie...
    What is recycled?
    I'll PM you.

    Ahh screw it I'll talk here.
     
    Into the Spiderverse was about alternate realities and all the spidermen came together to defeat a common enemy.  If that is what's happening here in this movie then it is totally recycled.
    Post edited by tempo_n_groove on
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,225
    igotid88 said:
    This Aunt May is better than all the MJ's. If we're talking looks. 
    They gave Aunt May a complete makeover.  She was a grandma in the comics and now she is the hot older aunt, lol.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,225
    New MJ 1,000,000 times better than original MJ, hope they don't bring her back.
    Better than Kersten Dunst?  Cmon.

    They don't even try to make her a redhead anymore...It's not even Mary Jane anymore... She's Michelle.
    Yes, I think she is that many times better.  I have no live for Kirsten Dunst.  Think this actress and the character in this newer version is the best.
    Don't care if MJ is a ginger or not.
    It's also not MJ as MJ.  It's a Michelle instead of a Mary too...

    You read the comics for so long and it throws you for a loop.
    I guess you read them longer than I did.  Spider Man was a mainstay (I believe there were three monthly titles?) for years when I was a kid.  Sure I still have hundreds of them, all mixed up in boxes and in rough shape.  I loved Spider Man.  Haven't read comics much since I was probably 15-16.  Once I got a car and license, girls pretty much demolished comic books.  :lol:. No money to spend on comics at that point.
    (Not to say I didn't read some, but was never again a monthly buyer.)
    Anyway, I just think Dunst is totally lame as an actress.
    Also, I know too much about Tobey, who is a piece a crap dude irl.  
    Those movies take a big time back seat to this version, and they all are dwarfed by how damn cool Into The Spider-verse was, to me.

    There were as many as 5 in one month?   Amazing, Peter Parker, Web, 2099, Venom.  Venom is a stretch but it sparked his own branch of comic.

    I enjoyed Spiderverse but only as a 1 off.  All the different realms and such is a time continuum mess.  I would like to see more Spiderham though...
  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 26,045
    2099 and Venom weren't on my list, was the other three.  Not even sure I know what 2099 is, that likely was after I stopped.
    I did like the venom stuff but if he had his own comics I don't think I bought those or they came after I stopped.

    Spider Ham was one of the best parts of Spider-Verse and I would take a follow up movie for Spider-Verse every day of the week, loved it.
    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,225
    2099 and Venom weren't on my list, was the other three.  Not even sure I know what 2099 is, that likely was after I stopped.
    I did like the venom stuff but if he had his own comics I don't think I bought those or they came after I stopped.

    Spider Ham was one of the best parts of Spider-Verse and I would take a follow up movie for Spider-Verse every day of the week, loved it.
    2099 was mid 90's as well as Venom.  Maybe closer to 93?  I was a reader of Peter Porker so that was a real geek treat to see him in that movie.  

    I can do without the alternate universes though...
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