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Coal: the reduction myth

unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
in A Moving Train
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/10/23/so-you-think-were-reducing-the-use-of-coal-think-again/?ss=energy

I guess we better start buying those hamster wheels.

Comments

  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,602
    Yep. Theres a "war on coal and coal jobs".

    What we could be are leaders reducing the harmful to the environment byproducts of burning coal and exporting the technology or manufacture/export the hardware needed for the safer burning of this resource.


    As for coal use in this country I see nothing wrong with the requirement of such tech. Although I will cede to possibilty of abusive regulation. It needs to be smart , practical and pragmatic. With costs borne by those who have so handsomely profitted from it not the end user who largely has no control of energy source just use.
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  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    It's more than that. I'd like to add that the wind subsidy makes other options extremely difficult to not only profit but to even stay in business. EPA certs have also forced us into cheaper options like natural gas, but then that leads to fracking.

    We are simply cutting off our noses to spite our faces.
  • CM189191CM189191 Posts: 6,927
    unsung said:

    It's more than that. I'd like to add that the wind subsidy makes other options extremely difficult to not only profit but to even stay in business. EPA certs have also forced us into cheaper options like natural gas, but then that leads to fracking.

    We are simply cutting off our noses to spite our faces.

    Subsidies are a good way to promote and encourage new technologies that might otherwise be too costly or risky to invest in. Oil & gas receive more than their fair share of subsidies as well.

    Not a fan of fracking. But I think the increase in fracking has come from wanting to reduce our dependency on foreign oil, rather that EPA regulations. Something that could also be done by investing in wind/solar/renewables. Germany is going through an energy transformation to reduce their need for foreign oil, gas from Russia, and nuclear power.

    Not sure why you posted a link to this particular article though. The author seems to arguing for a reduction in fossil fuel usage. In fact, he's got a book that comes to the conclusion: recommendations for achieving the desired energy future: educate world citizens, begin building immediately to have needed energy 30 years from now, increase environmental consciousness at the governmental level, help developing nations avoid the mistakes of the past and implement a carbon tax.

    Even his closing comment "Just ask China" seems to point to China's desire to reduce their Greenhouse Gas emissions.

    dig deeper
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,042
    Energy production is a huge contributor to climate change and pollution and a hugely challenging issue that needs to be resolved in this century. I have yet to read any solution that adequately resolves this problem for a world of over 7 billion people. For the sake of generations beyond mine, I very much hope that a solution is found- otherwise the world will look very much like the one depicted in James Howard Kunstler's non-fiction book, The Long Emergency and his "World Made By Hand" novels.

    It's encouraging to see that some in China are working hard on these issues. How ironic that one of the most polluted countries in the world could potentially be the leader in solution. Wishful thinking? Perhaps.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Posts: 8,661
    If anyone could find an adequate solution to an environmental problem it's you Brian. But since you have not found that solution yet, why are a lot of people on the kill jobs bandwagon?

    The closing of power plants in this country is NOT helping the environment. Wind and solar power is a great start. But they can't provide the energy needs for a large population by themselves.

    They key is demand. I know you talk a lot about this Brian. If we can decrease the demand for electricity and gasoline, we can then begin to put a dent in the emissions released in the atmosphere.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,042
    Last-12-Exit said:

    If anyone could find an adequate solution to an environmental problem it's you Brian. But since you have not found that solution yet, why are a lot of people on the kill jobs bandwagon?

    The closing of power plants in this country is NOT helping the environment. Wind and solar power is a great start. But they can't provide the energy needs for a large population by themselves.

    They key is demand. I know you talk a lot about this Brian. If we can decrease the demand for electricity and gasoline, we can then begin to put a dent in the emissions released in the atmosphere.

    To be honest, Last 12, it always seems ironic to me that looking for alternative energy solutions is seen as job killing. New technologies can create new jobs- and hopefully better jobs. I'm not at all in favor of putting people out of work!

    I totally agree that decreasing demand is important but I think that has to coincide with population reduction (as in lowering birth rates rather than running herds of people off cliffs!)
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    The wind subsidy is killing a lot of jobs, and it is helping create discussion of closing down more plants.

    I'm sure that would make some of you happy, but there's no parking lots outside of wind farms. All the jobs are temporary and a lot of the materials are imported.
  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Posts: 8,661
    brianlux said:

    Last-12-Exit said:

    If anyone could find an adequate solution to an environmental problem it's you Brian. But since you have not found that solution yet, why are a lot of people on the kill jobs bandwagon?

    The closing of power plants in this country is NOT helping the environment. Wind and solar power is a great start. But they can't provide the energy needs for a large population by themselves.

    They key is demand. I know you talk a lot about this Brian. If we can decrease the demand for electricity and gasoline, we can then begin to put a dent in the emissions released in the atmosphere.

    To be honest, Last 12, it always seems ironic to me that looking for alternative energy solutions is seen as job killing. New technologies can create new jobs- and hopefully better jobs. I'm not at all in favor of putting people out of work!

    I totally agree that decreasing demand is important but I think that has to coincide with population reduction (as in lowering birth rates rather than running herds of people off cliffs!)
    Sorry, I wasn't trying to correlate what you said to job killing. I know you do a lot of research on the subject and I was asking why the first thing people want to do is shut down plants. My apologies for not being more clear.
  • CM189191CM189191 Posts: 6,927
    Last-12-Exit said:

    Sorry, I wasn't trying to correlate what you said to job killing. I know you do a lot of research on the subject and I was asking why the first thing people want to do is shut down plants. My apologies for not being more clear.

    Reduced supplies of coal energy increases demand for substitutes like wind & solar.

    Also, it's killing the earth with that whole climate change thingy...
  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Posts: 8,661
    edited October 2014
    CM189191 said:

    Last-12-Exit said:

    Sorry, I wasn't trying to correlate what you said to job killing. I know you do a lot of research on the subject and I was asking why the first thing people want to do is shut down plants. My apologies for not being more clear.

    Reduced supplies of coal energy increases demand for substitutes like wind & solar.

    Also, it's killing the earth with that whole climate change thingy...
    The problem with that is the demand for coal energy hasn't decreased. The other problem with that is wind and solar energy can't supply the energy needs for a state by itself, or a big city for that matter.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    Wind wouldn't even exist if it weren't propped up by the taxpayers.

    It also hinders innovation in other energy sectors because they are forced to sell power at a loss. That is by law as well.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    My cousin is a coal miner and each time there are cutbacks it is because they bought a new machine that eliminates a person. It's not Obama, it's not the EPA...it's the same thing that is happening in all industries.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,042
    Wind power needs to move forward into a more quite, bird friendly future. Here's one idea (among others being developed) that is promising toward those ends (see link for illustration):

    http://www.gizmag.com/bird-friendly-wind-turbine/23961/

    WWII veteran creates bird-friendly wind turbine

    World War II veteran Raymond Green, an 89 year old resident of Jackson, California, has created a working prototype of a "bladeless" wind turbine which is bird and bat-friendly, and very quiet in operation. Though still in development at present, Green intends his design to be produced in various sizes, from smaller personal versions to much larger turbines which could be implemented in wind farms.

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • CM189191CM189191 Posts: 6,927
    After Solyndra Loss, U.S. Energy Loan Program Turning A Profit

    Easy to criticize these programs, but they don't get enough publicity when they actually succeed....
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