to a friend...

gimmesometruth27

i might get in trouble for this. but there is nothing i can really do about it. there is a big elephant in the room that i personally feel we need to be allowed to talk about. or in this case, there is a lack of a big british elephant in the room....i am trying to be as diplomatic as i can, and there is something that i need to say to my friend that i think you all should be able to read if you want to read it...

i've been gone for awhile. the last year or so i take self imposed breaks from here for prolonged periods of time, when i used to be on here all day or all night every single day. i find that life is better the further away you can get from the stuff we talk about on here. this most recent conflict in gaza has made me realize that personally, i have to bow out from time to time. it seems like the movement in support of israel is just too powerful. too many people have died. it just gets to be too much when you are on here typing away and nobody seems to be listening. it is too much to not just try to explain, but post evidence contrary to the fox news narrative that seems to have taken over and framed the debate on pretty much every singe issue. to me, it is just such a waste of time. such a monumental waste of time. i mean, really, are we really ever going to change anybody's mind about any of this stuff? i highly doubt it. and when you aren't opening minds or changing minds, you are wasting time.

but enough about me. it's not about me at all.

i just wanted to say that i am sorry to see you go, byrnzie.

we've been through some shit on here over the years. we have seen people come and go. some amazing people, some people i did not care much about. some people who left voluntarily, some who didn't.... i have developed relationships with people on here that last to this day. i have met many of the people on here over the years and drank beer with them. most times, the people we argue with on here are great people when you meet them and have a beer with them. some remain on here, some of them faded away over time. i had a girlfriend i met on amt and the musicians' thread. she is no longer here either. but the one constant on here was byrnzie.

dude, i owe you a lot. without interacting with you on here all these years, i would never have studied some of the issues as much as i have. i would never have posted so passionately. i would never have fought my "good fight" because i would have agreed with everybody else because i would not have questioned anything they were saying. i would never have stood my ground in the face of overwhelming opposition. like when i was being told by seemingly the entire message board to "get the fuck out of america" during the lead up to the iraq war and subsequent follow up incursions. without you being on here, i would probably be just another lunkhead supporting war and supporting israel at all costs because i would have been too lazy to really research it or study any of it on my own. i would have been a typical ethnocentric american, thinking america was the greatest thing god ever created, and screw everyone everywhere else. i would have fallen in line, most likely, and i would have been pro war in a lot of cases. i would never know who norman finkelstein is. i would never have known what aipac is. i would probably look on a map and not be able to tell you where the west bank was, or even gaza. or even tel aviv for that matter. i would not know about the 7 day war. i would not know what zionism is. i would not know that settlements are illegal and condemned by the world community. i would not know much about netanyahu or why hamas exists.

i thank you for opening up my eyes to the plight of the palestinians. before i started interacting with yourself and guys like el kabong, abook, drownedout, triumphantangel, commy, ahnimus, catefrances, and all of the old guard, even yosi and rafie i would stay out of those israel threads not just because i felt like i had nothing to contribute, but because i did not really care what was happening to a bunch of muslims halfway across the world. you and some others changed all of that, so i thank you for that. i owe you all for that. i think it might be because most of you were from other countries and were not american. i learned to take things from a different view. i expanded my world view.

you were a great voice for the palestinian people on these forums, and i for one, am going to miss your posts. i think i can say that whether people liked you or didn't like you, they could never ignore you. and to me, that is a greatest legacy to leave. in the end, they silenced you. i have gone on record here several times noting my dislike of permabans, especially when now we pay to post here, so i don't really need to get into that here.

i suppose this is the part where i am supposed to vow that i will carry your torch and continue fighting the good fight and all of that rah-rah bullshit, but i think i can say that at this point i am thinking "why bother?" nothing ever changes. nothing ever gets accomplished. the train never changes. only the screen names change.

i am thinking that the lesson here is to try to remind yourself when you are posting that the person you are addressing is more than that little picture off to the side of the screen. they are real people with real feelings at the other end of the keyboard. they have things they like and things they dislike. they have their beliefs that may be different than ours. but we have something in common. we all pay real money to come here and post with people that like the same band. that is a small thing to have in common, but at least it is something, ya know?? it took me a banning or two to realize that people are more than their avatars. you were more than a picture of db cooper. but i have to admit, there were times where i would see a documentary about db cooper and your avatar would pop up on tv and i would think to myself "man that cooper can be a real jerk sometimes" not realizing that you look nothing like db cooper...

at any rate, go easy bro. the place is already different without you. personally i don't like the "feel" anymore. if you are ever in the states, i would love to have that beer with you. look me up on facebook. maybe we can keep doing our thing over there. seems like everyone left here to go there anyway.

cheers mate,

Rod

callen

Nice post Rod.

So easy to give up ones ideals. Few stick to them and most become cynical.

badbrains

gimmesometruth27 said:

i might get in trouble for this. but there is nothing i can really do about it. there is a big elephant in the room that i personally feel we need to be allowed to talk about. or in this case, there is a lack of a big british elephant in the room....i am trying to be as diplomatic as i can, and there is something that i need to say to my friend that i think you all should be able to read if you want to read it...

i've been gone for awhile. the last year or so i take self imposed breaks from here for prolonged periods of time, when i used to be on here all day or all night every single day. i find that life is better the further away you can get from the stuff we talk about on here. this most recent conflict in gaza has made me realize that personally, i have to bow out from time to time. it seems like the movement in support of israel is just too powerful. too many people have died. it just gets to be too much when you are on here typing away and nobody seems to be listening. it is too much to not just try to explain, but post evidence contrary to the fox news narrative that seems to have taken over and framed the debate on pretty much every singe issue. to me, it is just such a waste of time. such a monumental waste of time. i mean, really, are we really ever going to change anybody's mind about any of this stuff? i highly doubt it. and when you aren't opening minds or changing minds, you are wasting time.

but enough about me. it's not about me at all.

i just wanted to say that i am sorry to see you go, byrnzie.

we've been through some shit on here over the years. we have seen people come and go. some amazing people, some people i did not care much about. some people who left voluntarily, some who didn't.... i have developed relationships with people on here that last to this day. i have met many of the people on here over the years and drank beer with them. most times, the people we argue with on here are great people when you meet them and have a beer with them. some remain on here, some of them faded away over time. i had a girlfriend i met on amt and the musicians' thread. she is no longer here either. but the one constant on here was byrnzie.

dude, i owe you a lot. without interacting with you on here all these years, i would never have studied some of the issues as much as i have. i would never have posted so passionately. i would never have fought my "good fight" because i would have agreed with everybody else because i would not have questioned anything they were saying. i would never have stood my ground in the face of overwhelming opposition. like when i was being told by seemingly the entire message board to "get the fuck out of america" during the lead up to the iraq war and subsequent follow up incursions. without you being on here, i would probably be just another lunkhead supporting war and supporting israel at all costs because i would have been too lazy to really research it or study any of it on my own. i would have been a typical ethnocentric american, thinking america was the greatest thing god ever created, and screw everyone everywhere else. i would have fallen in line, most likely, and i would have been pro war in a lot of cases. i would never know who norman finkelstein is. i would never have known what aipac is. i would probably look on a map and not be able to tell you where the west bank was, or even gaza. or even tel aviv for that matter. i would not know about the 7 day war. i would not know what zionism is. i would not know that settlements are illegal and condemned by the world community. i would not know much about netanyahu or why hamas exists.

i thank you for opening up my eyes to the plight of the palestinians. before i started interacting with yourself and guys like el kabong, abook, drownedout, triumphantangel, commy, ahnimus, catefrances, and all of the old guard, even yosi and rafie i would stay out of those israel threads not just because i felt like i had nothing to contribute, but because i did not really care what was happening to a bunch of muslims halfway across the world. you and some others changed all of that, so i thank you for that. i owe you all for that. i think it might be because most of you were from other countries and were not american. i learned to take things from a different view. i expanded my world view.

you were a great voice for the palestinian people on these forums, and i for one, am going to miss your posts. i think i can say that whether people liked you or didn't like you, they could never ignore you. and to me, that is a greatest legacy to leave. in the end, they silenced you. i have gone on record here several times noting my dislike of permabans, especially when now we pay to post here, so i don't really need to get into that here.

i suppose this is the part where i am supposed to vow that i will carry your torch and continue fighting the good fight and all of that rah-rah bullshit, but i think i can say that at this point i am thinking "why bother?" nothing ever changes. nothing ever gets accomplished. the train never changes. only the screen names change.

i am thinking that the lesson here is to try to remind yourself when you are posting that the person you are addressing is more than that little picture off to the side of the screen. they are real people with real feelings at the other end of the keyboard. they have things they like and things they dislike. they have their beliefs that may be different than ours. but we have something in common. we all pay real money to come here and post with people that like the same band. that is a small thing to have in common, but at least it is something, ya know?? it took me a banning or two to realize that people are more than their avatars. you were more than a picture of db cooper. but i have to admit, there were times where i would see a documentary about db cooper and your avatar would pop up on tv and i would think to myself "man that cooper can be a real jerk sometimes" not realizing that you look nothing like db cooper...

at any rate, go easy bro. the place is already different without you. personally i don't like the "feel" anymore. if you are ever in the states, i would love to have that beer with you. look me up on facebook. maybe we can keep doing our thing over there. seems like everyone left here to go there anyway.

cheers mate,

Rod

Damn, thanks for sharing this Rod. No doubt bro, byrnzie is 100% gonna be missed and censorship is 100% wrong.

Edit-and Rod, if this gets you in trouble, then man, this place wouldn't be worth visiting for me anymore. Can't see why you'd get in trouble for this awesome post.

callen

To think how great it would be to meet this gentleman and discuss humanity.

badbrains

callen said:

To think how great it would be to meet this gentleman and discuss humanity.

And talk shit about his Reds! Byrnzie, "you'll never walk alone!" )

hedonist

:bz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF_WKwbueG8

unsung

This place has certainly changed.

badbrains

hedonist said:

:bz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF_WKwbueG8

Dude, fucken PERFECT! Of course it would be from hedonist

hedonist

Inspired by your avatar, BB :-B

And, with (honest) respect to the guidelines, I hope this thread can remain open for the content, the intent behind it; even though I don't think gimme and I have had much meeting of the minds, if any, discussing this could be a positive, something constructive.

Who knows. Maybe I should just hush

Last-12-Exit

Permanent bans are a lazy way to moderate.

hedonist

I don't know if it's lazy as I have no idea what went on behind the scenes, but I sure wish they'd be temporary/timed.

Not my board though, just riding it.

badbrains

hedonist said:

Inspired by your avatar, BB :-B

And, with (honest) respect to the guidelines, I hope this thread can remain open for the content, the intent behind it; even though I don't think gimme and I have had much meeting of the minds, if any, discussing this could be a positive, something constructive.

Who knows. Maybe I should just hush

I actually had the "original" pic chosen but DEF would've been joining byrnzie with the new "pay no mind/attention banned member" avatar.

Last-12-Exit

hedonist said:

I don't know if it's lazy as I have no idea what went on behind the scenes, but I sure wish they'd be temporary/timed.

Not my board though, just riding it.

It is our board. We pay for this board. If we don't spend our money here, there is no board.

hedonist

Last-12-Exit said:

hedonist said:

I don't know if it's lazy as I have no idea what went on behind the scenes, but I sure wish they'd be temporary/timed.

Not my board though, just riding it.

It is our board. We pay for this board. If we don't spend our money here, there is no board.

I pay to belong to the Ten Club, and the board is part of what my dues go for.

Not to battle, as I respect you. But as gimme posted about people beyond their avatars, I apply that to the mods as well. Actually, I don't really know Sea but my interactions with Kat over the last 15 years have shown a decent, thoughtful (and diplomatic when needed ) person.

As I said, I'm not privy to whatever preceded this.

Always enjoyed the various views and people and what I have learned and continue to.

So, hope the show can go on.

dignin

I've taken many breaks from this forum over the years. Whenever PJ tours nearby me I get drawn back but then I eventually take a break again.....this seems like a good time to bow out for awhile again. I think it's healthy to take a long break from this board....and the internet for that matter.

PJ_Soul

He who shall not be named had a consistent habit of belittling people. It wasn't about his opinions or knowledge (frankly, I found his general views re Gaza pretty mainstream... a lot of people are against Israel. Yes he is a good researcher, but that doesn't excuse the belittling factor). I'm sure he was warned a bunch of times before this, yet he kept up with the same behaviour because he thought anyone rejecting his style was rejecting the points he made and the facts he posted (he even quoted Chomsky), which i believe wasn't the case. He made the choice to ignore warnings and warning signs, I.e. so many people really getting into it with him. That doesn't happen to a lot of other people with controversial views (not that I think his views were particularly controversial for the most part), because they manage to have discussions without treating people poorly while they're at it. Thise who do really get into that with a lot of members inevitably get banned. Of course he took it too. I have no doubt that others got warnings because of how they treated him.

All one has to do is try to treat others - not just a few who are on their "side", but everyone - with some respect. Sure a lot of us make slips with that, and some get warned and learn their lesson, but when it's a constant pattern despite warnings you're eventually going to get banned permanently. This is nothing new, and it's clear in the forum guidelines that this is how it goes.

That said, i can't support reporting people for anything other than threats or serious harassment or scalping, and lifetime bans are harsh... but again, pretty sure it takes several warnings before that happens.

IBTL

kce8

Sorry to hear this all here.
Did anyone of you speak with him in person since he´s not here anymore?
Is it fact that he is banned permanently or is it just speculation? Were do you get that from?
Sorry to ask, but I have no glue about all of that but I would like to know how you get to know about that. Or did you all know it bc of his avatar?
Over all I just can agree with PJ_Soul. While living the passion for something you have to ensure to find the right words and behavior.

And I am sure it´s needed to speak about it...that´s just a natural behavior inside a community and surely in everybodys sense.

rr165892

hedonist said:

Last-12-Exit said:

hedonist said:

I don't know if it's lazy as I have no idea what went on behind the scenes, but I sure wish they'd be temporary/timed.

Not my board though, just riding it.

It is our board. We pay for this board. If we don't spend our money here, there is no board.

I pay to belong to the Ten Club, and the board is part of what my dues go for.

Not to battle, as I respect you. But as gimme posted about people beyond their avatars, I apply that to the mods as well. Actually, I don't really know Sea but my interactions with Kat over the last 15 years have shown a decent, thoughtful (and diplomatic when needed ) person.

As I said, I'm not privy to whatever preceded this.

Always enjoyed the various views and people and what I have learned and continue to.

So, hope the show can go on.

Lets keep it real Byrnzie pushed the envelope on many issues with many people.I don't agree with the Ban but I understand the background of why it was implemented.To Hedo's point ! Kat and Sea have been IMO very open to letting these conversations flow naturally.I think the leash for many of us has been plenty long.I hope that continues.

badbrains

kce8 said:

Sorry to hear this all here.
Did anyone of you speak with him in person since he´s not here anymore?
Is it fact that he is banned permanently or is it just speculation? Were do you get that from?
Sorry to ask, but I have no glue about all of that but I would like to know how you get to know about that. Or did you all know it bc of his avatar?
Over all I just can agree with PJ_Soul. While living the passion for something you have to ensure to find the right words and behavior.

And I am sure it´s needed to speak about it...that´s just a natural behavior inside a community and surely in everybodys sense.

I talked to him yesterday and he told me it's a perminate ban.

callen

Feel Having ones positions strongly debated is not personal and Byrnzie did push back when people pushed back personally after feeling frustrated at being out debated.

The post for which he was banned was due directly to being attacked personally. He didn't pull punches. Much like the frontman for the band we so love.

Also feel some didn't like him due to his intellect which made them feel uncomfortable.

Byrnzie brought facts to his debate with intelligence and thus boards overall IQ and fun have taken a hit. Some of the most interesting and informative threads were due to him. Gone. I learned tons on Middle East and yeah easy to say he was mainstream he backed up his position.

All you criticizing Byrnzie got pleasure due to his posts though at times you were challenged. Why I come here, to learn and have fun and yes to fuck with people and them fuck with me. Sparring. Good thing.

callen

rr165892 said:

hedonist said:

Last-12-Exit said:

hedonist said:

I don't know if it's lazy as I have no idea what went on behind the scenes, but I sure wish they'd be temporary/timed.

Not my board though, just riding it.

It is our board. We pay for this board. If we don't spend our money here, there is no board.

I pay to belong to the Ten Club, and the board is part of what my dues go for.

Not to battle, as I respect you. But as gimme posted about people beyond their avatars, I apply that to the mods as well. Actually, I don't really know Sea but my interactions with Kat over the last 15 years have shown a decent, thoughtful (and diplomatic when needed ) person.

As I said, I'm not privy to whatever preceded this.

Always enjoyed the various views and people and what I have learned and continue to.

So, hope the show can go on.

Lets keep it real Byrnzie pushed the envelope on many issues with many people.I don't agree with the Ban but I understand the background of why it was implemented.To Hedo's point ! Kat and Sea have been IMO very open to letting these conversations flow naturally.I think the leash for many of us has been plenty long.I hope that continues.

Isn't pushing the envelope good? Sometimes want to puke when people start the love fest and don't want to hurt feelings to stay popular. Fk that. We talk about death penalty, abortion, gun control religion. Israel. All heated topics. Sure we all want to "scream at the top of our lungs" and it's okay. It's the moving train.

It's not a popularity contest. Go to the porch and you can witness that behavior sometimes with cruel results at other members expense.

Byrnzie didn't care of your feelings. Admirable quality.