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Does a State of Palestine have a right to exist?

mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,594
in A Moving Train
Seems a pertinent question to me. If so , then should they wait for Israel to declare? Should they force the hands of the 2 countries who stand in the way?

I say no to my first question and a big FUCK YES to the second.

What do they have to lose at this point?
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Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14

Comments

  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    It's too bad Jordan or Syria won't just donate a corner and be done with it.
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    unsung said:

    It's too bad Jordan or Syria won't just donate a corner and be done with it.

    Sure, why not? Let's just take land from 2 OTHER countries. And syria has donated, Golan heights.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    This is why I usually stay out of this topic, too many d-bag comments.
  • benjsbenjs Posts: 9,147
    edited September 2014
    mickeyrat, it's a good question, but I believe they have a hell of a lot to lose.

    If an independent Palestinian state is declared in what is currently seen as Palestinian territory, or even if they somehow managed to get an agreement from Israel to move back to 1967 borders, the Palestinian government risk losing their ability to try and combat the injustices which began in 1948. When Khaled Meshaal states that it is for the future people of an established Palestine to decide whether Israel has the right to exist, I believe that he is saying that a two-state solution should be seen only as a temporary solution, with citizens of the state of Palestine to determine whether they should continue to fight for the states of Palestine and Israel to be amalgamated into one secularly governed state or not.

    Israel seems to have fought for Jewish sovereignty over the region since its inception, and naturally the potential for the introduction of a unified secular government would challenge the notion of Jewish superiority within Israeli borders - something any Zionist would find repulsive and unacceptable. Hence, the only way I could see Israel allowing Palestine to exist in its current form as a recognized and established state is if the Palestinian governing bodies were to accept that this comes with finality and peace (i.e. the understanding that any conflict beginning from the Palestinians would lead to the destruction of their nation). I think this, in turn, would be deemed equally repulsive and unacceptable from the perspective of the Palestinian government, and would allow major injustices (see: Nakba) to continue and flourish (the 700,000 Arabs displaced in '48 are now around 5 million in refugee camps).

    Something's got to give, and personally, I put the onus on Israel to accept a major and life-altering shift for literally every Jew in the region: Israel may be the Jewish homeland, but it should not be a Jewish state. A two-state solution is likely dead as Netanyahu stated, but it certainly isn't dead for the reasons he's stated. I believe that it's time for Israeli Jews to lower themselves from their place of assumed moral superiority, and do the thing that they've preached a necessity to do for so many years: coexist.
    Post edited by benjs on
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,594
    benjs said:

    mickeyrat, it's a good question, but I believe they have a hell of a lot to lose.

    If an independent Palestinian state is declared in what is currently seen as Palestinian territory, or even if they somehow managed to get an agreement from Israel to move back to 1967 borders, the Palestinian government risk losing their ability to try and combat the injustices which began in 1948. When Khaled Meshaal states that it is for the future people of an established Palestine to decide whether Israel has the right to exist, I believe that he is saying that a two-state solution should be seen only as a temporary solution, with citizens of the state of Palestine to determine whether they should continue to fight for the states of Palestine and Israel to be amalgamated into one secularly governed state or not.

    Israel seems to have fought for Jewish sovereignty over the region since its inception, and naturally the potential for the introduction of a unified secular government would challenge the notion of Jewish superiority within Israeli borders - something any Zionist would find repulsive and unacceptable. Hence, the only way I could see Israel allowing Palestine to exist in its current form as a recognized and established state is if the Palestinian governing bodies were to accept that this comes with finality and peace (i.e. the understanding that any conflict beginning from the Palestinians would lead to the destruction of their nation). I think this, in turn, would be deemed equally repulsive and unacceptable from the perspective of the Palestinian government, and would allow major injustices (see: Nakba) to continue and flourish (the 700,000 Arabs displaced in '48 are now around 5 million in refugee camps).

    Something's got to give, and personally, I put the onus on Israel to accept a major and life-altering shift for literally every Jew in the region: Israel may be the Jewish homeland, but it should not be a Jewish state. A two-state solution is likely dead as Netanyahu stated, but it certainly isn't dead for the reasons he's stated. I believe that it's time for Israeli Jews to lower themselves from their place of assumed moral superiority, and do the thing that they've preached a necessity to do for so many years: coexist.

    Thank you. Very insightful.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • benjsbenjs Posts: 9,147
    mickeyrat said:

    benjs said:

    mickeyrat, it's a good question, but I believe they have a hell of a lot to lose.

    If an independent Palestinian state is declared in what is currently seen as Palestinian territory, or even if they somehow managed to get an agreement from Israel to move back to 1967 borders, the Palestinian government risk losing their ability to try and combat the injustices which began in 1948. When Khaled Meshaal states that it is for the future people of an established Palestine to decide whether Israel has the right to exist, I believe that he is saying that a two-state solution should be seen only as a temporary solution, with citizens of the state of Palestine to determine whether they should continue to fight for the states of Palestine and Israel to be amalgamated into one secularly governed state or not.

    Israel seems to have fought for Jewish sovereignty over the region since its inception, and naturally the potential for the introduction of a unified secular government would challenge the notion of Jewish superiority within Israeli borders - something any Zionist would find repulsive and unacceptable. Hence, the only way I could see Israel allowing Palestine to exist in its current form as a recognized and established state is if the Palestinian governing bodies were to accept that this comes with finality and peace (i.e. the understanding that any conflict beginning from the Palestinians would lead to the destruction of their nation). I think this, in turn, would be deemed equally repulsive and unacceptable from the perspective of the Palestinian government, and would allow major injustices (see: Nakba) to continue and flourish (the 700,000 Arabs displaced in '48 are now around 5 million in refugee camps).

    Something's got to give, and personally, I put the onus on Israel to accept a major and life-altering shift for literally every Jew in the region: Israel may be the Jewish homeland, but it should not be a Jewish state. A two-state solution is likely dead as Netanyahu stated, but it certainly isn't dead for the reasons he's stated. I believe that it's time for Israeli Jews to lower themselves from their place of assumed moral superiority, and do the thing that they've preached a necessity to do for so many years: coexist.

    Thank you. Very insightful.
    Couldn't tell if this was sarcastic or not, but if so, sorry if this rubbed you the wrong way, it's just my opinion on the answer to your question.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,594
    Oh no. Heartfelt. Appreciate your measured tone and responses on the subject.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    Shit man, I say hell yes they have a right to exist. Not sure what/how you mean by "force the hands of the 2 countries who stand in the way". If it's just a matter of declaring independence, why haven't they done it?

    And please, all you experts on this topic please, hold back on throwing the insults. I really would like to learn more about all this without the usual castigation.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    brianlux said:

    Shit man, I say hell yes they have a right to exist. Not sure what/how you mean by "force the hands of the 2 countries who stand in the way". If it's just a matter of declaring independence, why haven't they done it?

    And please, all you experts on this topic please, hold back on throwing the insults. I really would like to learn more about all this without the usual castigation.

    He means we need to force the hands of the U.S and Israel - the two countries who stand in the way of a peaceful settlement. (The U.S having used it's power of automatic veto at the U.N to block any and all criticism of Israel for the past 46 years).

  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    Byrnzie said:



    brianlux said:

    Shit man, I say hell yes they have a right to exist. Not sure what/how you mean by "force the hands of the 2 countries who stand in the way". If it's just a matter of declaring independence, why haven't they done it?

    And please, all you experts on this topic please, hold back on throwing the insults. I really would like to learn more about all this without the usual castigation.

    He means we need to force the hands of the U.S and Israel - the two countries who stand in the way of a peaceful settlement. (The U.S having used it's power of automatic veto at the U.N to block any and all criticism of Israel for the past 46 years).

    How do you see that happening, Byrnzie. How does tiny Palestine force the hand of Mega U.S. and Mega U.S. fueled Israel?

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • benjsbenjs Posts: 9,147
    brianlux said:

    Byrnzie said:



    brianlux said:

    Shit man, I say hell yes they have a right to exist. Not sure what/how you mean by "force the hands of the 2 countries who stand in the way". If it's just a matter of declaring independence, why haven't they done it?

    And please, all you experts on this topic please, hold back on throwing the insults. I really would like to learn more about all this without the usual castigation.

    He means we need to force the hands of the U.S and Israel - the two countries who stand in the way of a peaceful settlement. (The U.S having used it's power of automatic veto at the U.N to block any and all criticism of Israel for the past 46 years).

    How do you see that happening, Byrnzie. How does tiny Palestine force the hand of Mega U.S. and Mega U.S. fueled Israel?

    Pretty sure he's said a number of times what one of the best ways is: BDS.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    edited September 2014
    benjs said:

    brianlux said:

    Byrnzie said:



    brianlux said:

    Shit man, I say hell yes they have a right to exist. Not sure what/how you mean by "force the hands of the 2 countries who stand in the way". If it's just a matter of declaring independence, why haven't they done it?

    And please, all you experts on this topic please, hold back on throwing the insults. I really would like to learn more about all this without the usual castigation.

    He means we need to force the hands of the U.S and Israel - the two countries who stand in the way of a peaceful settlement. (The U.S having used it's power of automatic veto at the U.N to block any and all criticism of Israel for the past 46 years).

    How do you see that happening, Byrnzie. How does tiny Palestine force the hand of Mega U.S. and Mega U.S. fueled Israel?

    Pretty sure he's said a number of times what one of the best ways is: BDS.
    That would help. Not sure it would force the U.S. hand. And I didn't know he had said that a number of times because after getting shit on once too many times I stopped reading this stuff for a while. But hey, by gones be by gones.
    Anyway, yes, good idea, I don't buy any of the crap those companies sell.

    Post edited by brianlux on
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    There's also direct action, like the blockades of Israeli cargo vessels at some U.S ports going on right now.
    Either way, the same methods used to overthrow Apartheid South Africa - which was supported by the U.S until the very end - need to be employed against Israel. The U.S government won't stop giving 100% unconditional support to Israel, so the only way is to pressure Israel economically, along with artistic boycotts.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    Byrnzie said:

    There's also direct action, like the blockades of Israeli cargo vessels at some U.S ports going on right now.
    Either way, the same methods used to overthrow Apartheid South Africa - which was supported by the U.S until the very end - need to be employed against Israel. The U.S government won't stop giving 100% unconditional support to Israel, so the only way is to pressure Israel economically, along with artistic boycotts.

    Makes sense, Byrnzie but I hate to say this (because I don't want to sound pessimistic) but the difference with South Africa was one major factor: popular entertainment support. Steven Van Zandt and the hugely popular and diverse enertainers in Artists United Against Apartheid etc. come to mind. I don't see that happening at that level in this culture. Let someone prove me wrong-- please!

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited September 2014
    brianlux said:

    Byrnzie said:

    There's also direct action, like the blockades of Israeli cargo vessels at some U.S ports going on right now.
    Either way, the same methods used to overthrow Apartheid South Africa - which was supported by the U.S until the very end - need to be employed against Israel. The U.S government won't stop giving 100% unconditional support to Israel, so the only way is to pressure Israel economically, along with artistic boycotts.

    Makes sense, Byrnzie but I hate to say this (because I don't want to sound pessimistic) but the difference with South Africa was one major factor: popular entertainment support. Steven Van Zandt and the hugely popular and diverse enertainers in Artists United Against Apartheid etc. come to mind. I don't see that happening at that level in this culture. Let someone prove me wrong-- please!
    I think we're actually getting closer to the same level of artistic boycotts that we saw employed against South African Apartheid.
    During Israel's most recent large scale massacre of Palestinians a large and diverse group of musicians and actors came forward to speak out against it.
    I think It's only a matter of time before somebody forms a collective group like the one you mention.


  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    Byrnzie said:

    brianlux said:

    Byrnzie said:

    There's also direct action, like the blockades of Israeli cargo vessels at some U.S ports going on right now.
    Either way, the same methods used to overthrow Apartheid South Africa - which was supported by the U.S until the very end - need to be employed against Israel. The U.S government won't stop giving 100% unconditional support to Israel, so the only way is to pressure Israel economically, along with artistic boycotts.

    Makes sense, Byrnzie but I hate to say this (because I don't want to sound pessimistic) but the difference with South Africa was one major factor: popular entertainment support. Steven Van Zandt and the hugely popular and diverse enertainers in Artists United Against Apartheid etc. come to mind. I don't see that happening at that level in this culture. Let someone prove me wrong-- please!
    I think we're actually getting closer to the same level of artistic boycotts that we saw employed against South African Apartheid.
    During Israel's most recent large scale massacre of Palestinians a large and diverse group of musicians and actors came forward to speak out against it.
    I think It's only a matter of time before somebody forms a collective group like the one you mention.


    That would be great- let's watch for it/support it.

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • i_lov_iti_lov_it Posts: 4,007
    edited September 2014
    Byrnzie said:

    There's also direct action, like the blockades of Israeli cargo vessels at some U.S ports going on right now.
    Either way, the same methods used to overthrow Apartheid South Africa - which was supported by the U.S until the very end - need to be employed against Israel. The U.S government won't stop giving 100% unconditional support to Israel, so the only way is to pressure Israel economically, along with artistic boycotts.

    With the US it's all about the Money isn't it...as long as there is Money to be had.
    Post edited by i_lov_it on
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,594
    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/04/palestine-formally-joins-international-criminal-court-150401073619618.html
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    mickeyrat said:

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/04/palestine-formally-joins-international-criminal-court-150401073619618.html

    shit is about to get real in the next few months...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • benjsbenjs Posts: 9,147
    gimmesometruth27 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/04/palestine-formally-joins-international-criminal-court-150401073619618.html

    shit is about to get real in the next few months...
    I don't expect Israel to participate, and I expect the typical empty condemnations against them as a result. This time, however, the refusal of Israel to participate in a body which exists to put war criminals on trial according to the same Statute used by Israel to prosecute war criminals in Nazi Germany has the potential to really disturb the world to a point of action.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 29,555
    Why shouldn't they be allowed to exist aren't they people with a history just like any other I don't get why this is even a ????? Why should they be persecuted as if they are beneath any human value ......what a fucked up world we have created all because of Religion ....
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,594
    Revived because the joined the world court last week.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    josevolution said:

    Why shouldn't they be allowed to exist aren't they people with a history just like any other I don't get why this is even a ????? Why should they be persecuted as if they are beneath any human value ......what a fucked up world we have created all because of Religion ....

    Amen lol
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,594
    edited September 2015
    well how about that.
    U.N. has passed a resolution approviing of the flying of the Palestine national flag along side the Vaticans at the UN headquarters in New York.
    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/vote-palestine-flag-fly-headquarters-150910060007023.html
    Post edited by mickeyrat on
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    mickeyrat said:

    well how about that.
    U.N. has passed a resolution approviing of the flying of the Palestine national flag along side the Vaticans at the UN headquarters in New York.
    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/vote-palestine-flag-fly-headquarters-150910060007023.html

    what? we didn't veto it??

    imagine that....
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    gimmesometruth27 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    well how about that.
    U.N. has passed a resolution approviing of the flying of the Palestine national flag along side the Vaticans at the UN headquarters in New York.
    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/vote-palestine-flag-fly-headquarters-150910060007023.html

    what? we didn't veto it??

    imagine that....
    of course us and israel strongly opposed it.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • PJfanwillneverleave1PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    http://www.torontosun.com/2015/09/10/father-of-drowned-syrian-boy-blames-canadian-authorities
    Just putting this here too in addition to the Canadian politics thread.
    Seems no matter what you do these far away country issues fester again once settled.
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    josevolution said:

    Why shouldn't they be allowed to exist aren't they people with a history just like any other I don't get why this is even a ????? Why should they be persecuted as if they are beneath any human value ......what a fucked up world we have created all because of Religion ....

    Reread thread title and had same thought. Baffling it's even a question.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    http://www.torontosun.com/2015/09/10/father-of-drowned-syrian-boy-blames-canadian-authorities
    Just putting this here too in addition to the Canadian politics thread.
    Seems no matter what you do these far away country issues fester again once settled.

    What does this tragedy have to do with Palestine? You make no sense sometimes.
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