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Murder rates higher...

unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
in A Moving Train
...when concealed carry was more restricted and when "assault weapons" and "high capacity" magazines were banned.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/13504851.2013.854294


The findings of the Gius study are essentially in line with two other major studies on the same subjects. John Lott’s and David Mustard’s study found that Right-to-Carry laws not only coincide with, but contribute to, a reduction in violent crime. Meanwhile, the Urban Institute’s study of the federal “assault weapon” and “large” magazine ban found that the ban was ineffective because the banned firearms and magazines were rarely used in crime prior to the ban.

Another study that shows the anti side is wrong...again.

Comments

  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    Aren't there a half dozen threads for this? A half dozen threads where you accept fringe studies like this and ignore the simplest correlation of all. The country with outrageous gun ownership rates is also the country with outrageous gun fatality rates.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Stickman12Stickman12 Posts: 504
    Both sides will always be able to find studies or arguments to support there stance. This is just one of those subjects that both sides can and will argue endlessly but little to nothing will change. Guns are in the United States (almost one per person) and they aren't going anywhere in our lifetime.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,042
    Sure seems to me like rgambs has summed up this topic:

    The country with outrageous gun ownership rates is also the country with outrageous gun fatality rates.

    Pretty hard to argue that one.

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    rgambs said:

    Aren't there a half dozen threads for this? A half dozen threads where you accept fringe studies like this and ignore the simplest correlation of all. The country with outrageous gun ownership rates is also the country with outrageous gun fatality rates.

    Or maybe, just maybe it correlates with a broken education system, an immigration and gang problem, socioeconomic problems, drug and parenting problems, overpopulation, a broken medical care system...nope, must be all them scary gun owners...
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 29,567
    What do you want that you don't allready have , all is quiet on the gun front no one is taken or changing any laws you'll never get me to agree on the gun debate with you , I hate guns & you love them so go ahead and make sure to kiss that rifle caress that gun underneath your pillow I'll just go and hug a tree ...
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • JimmyVJimmyV Posts: 19,172
    rgambs said:

    Aren't there a half dozen threads for this? A half dozen threads where you accept fringe studies like this and ignore the simplest correlation of all. The country with outrageous gun ownership rates is also the country with outrageous gun fatality rates.

    Well said.

    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    PJPOWER said:

    rgambs said:

    Aren't there a half dozen threads for this? A half dozen threads where you accept fringe studies like this and ignore the simplest correlation of all. The country with outrageous gun ownership rates is also the country with outrageous gun fatality rates.

    Or maybe, just maybe it correlates with a broken education system, an immigration and gang problem, socioeconomic problems, drug and parenting problems, overpopulation, a broken medical care system...nope, must be all them scary gun owners...
    Hmmmm.good points here
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    PJPOWER said:

    rgambs said:

    Aren't there a half dozen threads for this? A half dozen threads where you accept fringe studies like this and ignore the simplest correlation of all. The country with outrageous gun ownership rates is also the country with outrageous gun fatality rates.

    Or maybe, just maybe it correlates with a broken education system, an immigration and gang problem, socioeconomic problems, drug and parenting problems, overpopulation, a broken medical care system...nope, must be all them scary gun owners...
    Sure, those correlate as well, but it's pretty hard to shoot someone without a gun! Every kitchen has knives, why don't we see as many stabbing fatalities as gun fatalities? Knives aren't as easy to use effectively and they are easier to survive. If every nutso had to get up close and personal with their outbursts we would see less murder. Spend some time in an ER if you don't buy it.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited September 2014
    rgambs said:

    PJPOWER said:

    rgambs said:

    Aren't there a half dozen threads for this? A half dozen threads where you accept fringe studies like this and ignore the simplest correlation of all. The country with outrageous gun ownership rates is also the country with outrageous gun fatality rates.

    Or maybe, just maybe it correlates with a broken education system, an immigration and gang problem, socioeconomic problems, drug and parenting problems, overpopulation, a broken medical care system...nope, must be all them scary gun owners...
    Sure, those correlate as well, but it's pretty hard to shoot someone without a gun! Every kitchen has knives, why don't we see as many stabbing fatalities as gun fatalities? Knives aren't as easy to use effectively and they are easier to survive. If every nutso had to get up close and personal with their outbursts we would see less murder. Spend some time in an ER if you don't buy it.
    Trust me, I'm all about a "nutso" not having guns. The murder rates are ridiculous. Maybe we should focus on securing our borders, educating and providing children with opportunities other than gang memberships. Focus on changing the trend and infatuation with violent media, "gore porn", and rewarding children for killing through video games. I feel like we have a violence problem in this country, but I do not feel that gun owners are to blame for this. I say, focus our resources on the root of the problems instead of this absurd gun control debate. I would say that high gun ownership relates to fear and reality of violence more than people just wanting them to kill each other. And go to any social work or law enforcement training and learn the reality of violence in your backyard...or choose to ignore it. Either way, stop trying to take away means of protection for those who choose to use it. Any law enforcement officer that I know, and I know a hell of a lot, would say that EVERY law abiding citizen should be educated in and own a firearm...because many many not so law abiding citizens are and do.
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    PJPOWER said:

    rgambs said:

    PJPOWER said:

    rgambs said:

    Aren't there a half dozen threads for this? A half dozen threads where you accept fringe studies like this and ignore the simplest correlation of all. The country with outrageous gun ownership rates is also the country with outrageous gun fatality rates.

    Or maybe, just maybe it correlates with a broken education system, an immigration and gang problem, socioeconomic problems, drug and parenting problems, overpopulation, a broken medical care system...nope, must be all them scary gun owners...
    Sure, those correlate as well, but it's pretty hard to shoot someone without a gun! Every kitchen has knives, why don't we see as many stabbing fatalities as gun fatalities? Knives aren't as easy to use effectively and they are easier to survive. If every nutso had to get up close and personal with their outbursts we would see less murder. Spend some time in an ER if you don't buy it.
    Trust me, I'm all about a "nutso" not having guns. The murder rates are ridiculous. Maybe we should focus on securing our borders, educating and providing children with opportunities other than gang memberships. Focus on changing the trend and infatuation with violent media, "gore porn", and rewarding children for killing through video games. I feel like we have a violence problem in this country, but I do not feel that gun owners are to blame for this. I say, focus our resources on the root of the problems instead of this absurd gun control debate.
    Secure the border? It's absurd to talk about controlled access to guns but border security is on the table? That's just crazy!
    Why does it need to be all or none? Why can't we treat the symptoms WHILE we treat the disease?? If cultural violence is the cause and gun deaths are the effects it would be like saying HIV is caused by unsafe sex, so we shouldn't do anything to treat AIDS... After all, it isn't the viruses fault people die, it's their unsafe practices. Do you see how this approach fails to make sense?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited September 2014
    That actually sounds like an apple and orange argument but I'll bite. We are all trying to find the cure for aids, but we all have different ideas as to how that is remedied and different opinions on what exactly the disease even is. Better yet, how do you remedy a snake bite? You level the playing field.
    I think there are people stirring the pot on both sides that are nothing short of extremists. There are people that think all guns should magically disappear and those that believe they should be able to carry grenade launchers into Wal Mart. Those on both sides are preventing anyone from even wanting to hear the ideas of those of us with more logical approaches to the problems related to violence in this country...but how do you logically change the illogical thinkers? I hate to be cynical, but I do not see it happening. So, being that the violence is out there and rampant, how do you level the playing field if that violence comes to you? Personally, I'm not going to try throwing kitchen knifes at it.
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    PJPOWER said:

    That actually sounds like an apple and orange argument but I'll bite. We are all trying to find the cure for aids, but we all have different ideas as to how that is remedied and different opinions on what exactly the disease even is. Better yet, how do you remedy a snake bite? You level the playing field.

    A textbook will tell you exactly what the disease is. The snakebite business I can't make sense of. Typically antivenin is the remedy, bit I don't get the analogy.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    rgambs said:

    PJPOWER said:

    That actually sounds like an apple and orange argument but I'll bite. We are all trying to find the cure for aids, but we all have different ideas as to how that is remedied and different opinions on what exactly the disease even is. Better yet, how do you remedy a snake bite? You level the playing field.

    A textbook will tell you exactly what the disease is. The snakebite business I can't make sense of. Typically antivenin is the remedy, bit I don't get the analogy.
    That's where it's apples and oranges. People claim to know exactly what the disease is. There is no textbook to identify why someone goes crazy and shoots up a school. You treat snakebites with the same venom that they inject. If someone comes at me with violence, I will meet them with violence. I can only hope that my training in handgun practice staying calm in tense situations will be the anti venom to a nut case out for blood because he wanted to play more realistic version of Grand Theft Auto.
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    PJPOWER said:

    rgambs said:

    Aren't there a half dozen threads for this? A half dozen threads where you accept fringe studies like this and ignore the simplest correlation of all. The country with outrageous gun ownership rates is also the country with outrageous gun fatality rates.

    Or maybe, just maybe it correlates with a broken education system, an immigration and gang problem, socioeconomic problems, drug and parenting problems, overpopulation, a broken medical care system...nope, must be all them scary gun owners...
    Agree that all the issues you've presented in the end are the root cause for violence. With that said if we had less guns or restricted guns the murder rates would go down. And forget this study just again look at vastly less deaths in countries that do restrict guns. And it's those very gun owners that don't want to commit energy or funds to help some of our problems. Vicious cycle but arming everyone is not the answer.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    I don't want everyone armed. Where was that ever stated?
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