Yasmin Mogahed open letter #Gaza

Drowned Out

JimmyV said:

Drowned Out said:

benjs said:

Drowned Out said:

know1 said:

Maybe there should be a separate forum for discussions on this conflict....because with those 2 groups it's never ever ever going to end.

Oh come on kettle....how many police and gun threads do you start, with no end in site for those issues either?

The point in the op is well taken. One thing I've noticed with this latest aggression from Israel...they're creating a huge number of Hamas sympathizers. When this began, not many people were willing to defend Hamas actions. Now, most people I speak to say things like 'what would you do in their situation? I don't blame them one bit'...

Hm. I have to think about this one. I'm not sure that Hamas sympathizers is the right term. First of all, the news primarily tells of the innocents (civilians) when it reports on the brutality. The militant numbers are also far lower than the civilian casualties (which is curious when one country's intelligence is supposedly so far greater than the other's), and psychologically, that harm is minimal relative to civilians (since militants are expected to have opted-in, with an understanding of potentially being put in harm's way). I see this as creating a large number of Palestinian sympathizers (which is a good thing), with Hamas' actions (ie. the rockets being launched in Israel's direction) on behalf of (and via) its citizens being tolerated.

I've said it before and I'll say it again though: a government's first obligation is to protect its citizens, and in the eventuality of a two-state solution (which I keep my fingers crossed for each day), Israel's citizens most definitely will be targeted with hatred which began out of oppression, and will likely exist after oppression. So, to send rockets into Israel, from my perspective, is counter-productive from Hamas' perspective if their goal is a two-state solution, as it legitimizes hatred ("you threw rockets at me, so I hate you" - though, of course, that's not the full story). I have the exact same feeling about Israel's horrendous aggression towards the Palestinian regions, and think that Netanyahu's insistence that there will never be a two-state solution is actually CAUSED by his own government's aggression and imposed oppression. How's that for circular logic?

PS, I realized that was mildly confusing, hope I expressed myself properly there.

I see what you're saying...and unfortunately I don't have time to reply to all of this tonight. I'm speaking mostly about casual, uncensored conversations with people who don't know a lot of background on the occupation...they're all angry about this. Before this started, in any conversation I had, condemnation of Hamas violence was virtually universal...now people see these images of entire city blocks levelled, and the rockets don't seem so unreasonable. It's not hard for people to imagine themselves in gaza with their loved ones, considering the way social media has allowed us to see so much pain in real time. And if you try to put yourself in the shoes of those who have lost everything, it's not hard for the most pacifist person to imagine themselves partaking in the violence. That's what I'm getting from conversations I've had, anyway.

I see a changing tide in opinion here, with sympathy for Gaza and contempt for Israel both on the rise. That doesn't necessarily equate to sympathy for Hamas, and I have not heard anyone in my face to face conversations express such sentiment. The tide has turned for Gaza and against Israel, but not for Hamas.

Right. But have you taken those conversations to that point? Have you asked people if they think the Palestinians are justified to defend themselves? Or if they would think so if their home and family had been destroyed? You're probably right - supporting Hamas may still be taboo, so people are still reluctant to outright say they sympathize with them...but I think a lot of people can sympathize with their need/want to fight back, and if they can... they are still sympathizing with Hamas, even if they might not support all of their tactics....

benjs

Drowned Out said:

JimmyV said:

Drowned Out said:

benjs said:

Drowned Out said:

know1 said:

Maybe there should be a separate forum for discussions on this conflict....because with those 2 groups it's never ever ever going to end.

Oh come on kettle....how many police and gun threads do you start, with no end in site for those issues either?

The point in the op is well taken. One thing I've noticed with this latest aggression from Israel...they're creating a huge number of Hamas sympathizers. When this began, not many people were willing to defend Hamas actions. Now, most people I speak to say things like 'what would you do in their situation? I don't blame them one bit'...

Hm. I have to think about this one. I'm not sure that Hamas sympathizers is the right term. First of all, the news primarily tells of the innocents (civilians) when it reports on the brutality. The militant numbers are also far lower than the civilian casualties (which is curious when one country's intelligence is supposedly so far greater than the other's), and psychologically, that harm is minimal relative to civilians (since militants are expected to have opted-in, with an understanding of potentially being put in harm's way). I see this as creating a large number of Palestinian sympathizers (which is a good thing), with Hamas' actions (ie. the rockets being launched in Israel's direction) on behalf of (and via) its citizens being tolerated.

I've said it before and I'll say it again though: a government's first obligation is to protect its citizens, and in the eventuality of a two-state solution (which I keep my fingers crossed for each day), Israel's citizens most definitely will be targeted with hatred which began out of oppression, and will likely exist after oppression. So, to send rockets into Israel, from my perspective, is counter-productive from Hamas' perspective if their goal is a two-state solution, as it legitimizes hatred ("you threw rockets at me, so I hate you" - though, of course, that's not the full story). I have the exact same feeling about Israel's horrendous aggression towards the Palestinian regions, and think that Netanyahu's insistence that there will never be a two-state solution is actually CAUSED by his own government's aggression and imposed oppression. How's that for circular logic?

PS, I realized that was mildly confusing, hope I expressed myself properly there.

I see what you're saying...and unfortunately I don't have time to reply to all of this tonight. I'm speaking mostly about casual, uncensored conversations with people who don't know a lot of background on the occupation...they're all angry about this. Before this started, in any conversation I had, condemnation of Hamas violence was virtually universal...now people see these images of entire city blocks levelled, and the rockets don't seem so unreasonable. It's not hard for people to imagine themselves in gaza with their loved ones, considering the way social media has allowed us to see so much pain in real time. And if you try to put yourself in the shoes of those who have lost everything, it's not hard for the most pacifist person to imagine themselves partaking in the violence. That's what I'm getting from conversations I've had, anyway.

I see a changing tide in opinion here, with sympathy for Gaza and contempt for Israel both on the rise. That doesn't necessarily equate to sympathy for Hamas, and I have not heard anyone in my face to face conversations express such sentiment. The tide has turned for Gaza and against Israel, but not for Hamas.

Right. But have you taken those conversations to that point? Have you asked people if they think the Palestinians are justified to defend themselves? Or if they would think so if their home and family had been destroyed? You're probably right - supporting Hamas may still be taboo, so people are still reluctant to outright say they sympathize with them...but I think a lot of people can sympathize with their need/want to fight back, and if they can... they are still sympathizing with Hamas, even if they might not support all of their tactics....

You're probably right about this... I responded to your original post with a fairly lengthy semantic discussion, which I'm realizing now, however, is really a moot point. Whether people support Hamas or whether they support the cause which they represent - I'm not sure it really matters all that much. What's significant is the change that this will bring.

It's really interesting, but the parallelisms are really hitting home... Look at the birth of modern Canada, America, Australia as major examples of lands where people were already there, and a group comes along and says "yeah, this is ours now, so would you mind leaving? No? Okay, we'll exert our force then". This seems to be the similar to Israel's birth story. The only major perceivable difference to me is the power dynamic, where the natives residing in these three destinations were largely isolated, and quite powerless compared to the newcomers to the land. In this situation, you had Palestinians surrounded by sympathetic Arab nations who would not have the notion of a Jewish state - and ESPECIALLY not when it meant that Arabs themselves would be displaced from their homes. While it seems unreasonable to say "we adamantly oppose the existence of a home for Jews" from neighbouring countries (as well as Palestinian non-Jews), that becomes incredibly reasonable when you add the suffix "because Jews and Arabs alike have coexisted here for years and we should not be forced to live any differently in the interest of a Jewish home". Would it be incredibly difficult at this point to say that Israel should cease to exist? Certainly. What's shocking, however, is that at least in Canada's modern conception where natives were displaced, over time, reparations were insisted upon. Native reserves here (which natives are allowed to leave when ever they please) are only inhabitable by natives. Natives receive funds to obtain an education. See what I'm getting at? Where are the reparations? Instead of reparations and special privileges going above and beyond to make right by wrongs done by inappropriate seizure of land, Israel seems to have granted Palestinians unhappy with their situation the right to their own demise.

What's my conclusion at the end of all of this? As I always have (I was suspended from Jewish day school for telling my teacher that Judaism was a load of crap in the sixth grade), I oppose religion more than ever. This is a country which exists solely because of a massive demonstration of religion-based hatred, used to justify further hatred and elitism by one religion unto another. If we cared about each other half as much as we cared about the words given to us by our personal version of the invisible man, this world would be a much better place. You could fill small oceans full with the blood that has been spilt in the name of religion, and it is a horrific tragedy. Be spiritual - but let the summation of the universe at large be your god, and understand that if god is everything, you are acting in self-destructive ways with every living thing which you harm. /rant concluded. My apologies in advance for anyone I've offended.

JimmyV

Drowned Out said:

JimmyV said:

Drowned Out said:

benjs said:

Drowned Out said:

know1 said:

Maybe there should be a separate forum for discussions on this conflict....because with those 2 groups it's never ever ever going to end.

Oh come on kettle....how many police and gun threads do you start, with no end in site for those issues either?

The point in the op is well taken. One thing I've noticed with this latest aggression from Israel...they're creating a huge number of Hamas sympathizers. When this began, not many people were willing to defend Hamas actions. Now, most people I speak to say things like 'what would you do in their situation? I don't blame them one bit'...

Hm. I have to think about this one. I'm not sure that Hamas sympathizers is the right term. First of all, the news primarily tells of the innocents (civilians) when it reports on the brutality. The militant numbers are also far lower than the civilian casualties (which is curious when one country's intelligence is supposedly so far greater than the other's), and psychologically, that harm is minimal relative to civilians (since militants are expected to have opted-in, with an understanding of potentially being put in harm's way). I see this as creating a large number of Palestinian sympathizers (which is a good thing), with Hamas' actions (ie. the rockets being launched in Israel's direction) on behalf of (and via) its citizens being tolerated.

I've said it before and I'll say it again though: a government's first obligation is to protect its citizens, and in the eventuality of a two-state solution (which I keep my fingers crossed for each day), Israel's citizens most definitely will be targeted with hatred which began out of oppression, and will likely exist after oppression. So, to send rockets into Israel, from my perspective, is counter-productive from Hamas' perspective if their goal is a two-state solution, as it legitimizes hatred ("you threw rockets at me, so I hate you" - though, of course, that's not the full story). I have the exact same feeling about Israel's horrendous aggression towards the Palestinian regions, and think that Netanyahu's insistence that there will never be a two-state solution is actually CAUSED by his own government's aggression and imposed oppression. How's that for circular logic?

PS, I realized that was mildly confusing, hope I expressed myself properly there.

I see what you're saying...and unfortunately I don't have time to reply to all of this tonight. I'm speaking mostly about casual, uncensored conversations with people who don't know a lot of background on the occupation...they're all angry about this. Before this started, in any conversation I had, condemnation of Hamas violence was virtually universal...now people see these images of entire city blocks levelled, and the rockets don't seem so unreasonable. It's not hard for people to imagine themselves in gaza with their loved ones, considering the way social media has allowed us to see so much pain in real time. And if you try to put yourself in the shoes of those who have lost everything, it's not hard for the most pacifist person to imagine themselves partaking in the violence. That's what I'm getting from conversations I've had, anyway.

I see a changing tide in opinion here, with sympathy for Gaza and contempt for Israel both on the rise. That doesn't necessarily equate to sympathy for Hamas, and I have not heard anyone in my face to face conversations express such sentiment. The tide has turned for Gaza and against Israel, but not for Hamas.

Right. But have you taken those conversations to that point? Have you asked people if they think the Palestinians are justified to defend themselves? Or if they would think so if their home and family had been destroyed? You're probably right - supporting Hamas may still be taboo, so people are still reluctant to outright say they sympathize with them...but I think a lot of people can sympathize with their need/want to fight back, and if they can... they are still sympathizing with Hamas, even if they might not support all of their tactics....

Supporting Hamas is a bridge too far for many people, myself included. I haven't heard anyone say that they do, but no I have not specifically asked.

Definitely, the idea that Palestinians have the right to defend themselves is gaining a greater foothold here than ever before. More than that though is the growing consensus that Israel's current offensive is a slaughter. All of that though stops well short of support for Hamas.

mickeyrat

Just watched Noah. Some of the lessons/statements contained within seem applicable to current events. Yes I get it its "just a movie" BUT the morality of it.......