Who wants to slap their child across the face- let alone slap them with every bit of their might?
Hedonist...
You asked, "Is time served like this common in Canada? Not just the paltry length of sentence, but showing up a couple of days a week? Is that even considered punishment?"
I have been trying to tell anyone willing to listen to me... up here in Canada... we really think we got things figured out. We don't. Our legal system is a pathetic joke and our penal system is no better.
.
Sounds like you want an American style justice system. I say no thanks. Our system may not be perfect but I will take it over our neighbours to the south any day.
Longer and more harsh sentences over rehabilitation is show to not work time and time again. Particularly when the inmates are in for crimes related to drugs and alcohol which they are addicted to.
Exellently put.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Who wants to slap their child across the face- let alone slap them with every bit of their might?
Hedonist...
You asked, "Is time served like this common in Canada? Not just the paltry length of sentence, but showing up a couple of days a week? Is that even considered punishment?"
I have been trying to tell anyone willing to listen to me... up here in Canada... we really think we got things figured out. We don't. Our legal system is a pathetic joke and our penal system is no better.
Our criminal element kicks ass. Our weak judicial system routinely fails our law abiding, good citizens because our influential 'bleeding-hearts-with-their-heads-stuffed-squarely-up-their-asses-living-in-la-la-land' seem to think the worst in our society deserve our very, very best efforts.
If little children or others get hurt in the process of affording our worst such generosity... they rationalize that as an unfortunate, but necessary component of a fair legal system, but never stop to think that they might have actually played a role in allowing it to happen.
Don't believe me? Look at this fucking idiot and research his criminal past:
Well done, Canada. Well done! How enlightened and advanced we are.
Thirty, about the slap...I've never been, and from what I know of you, you never would impose that on your children. There are better, more constructive ways to teach and discipline and set an example.
More that I wonder about and related to dignin's post - how is a pedophile rehabilitated? How many repeat offenders must be given leeway?
Huge child porn bust today in NYC. Includes "prominent" or so-called noble professionals. How are these sick fucks - sadly, a drop in the bucket - to be rehabilitated?
Who wants to slap their child across the face- let alone slap them with every bit of their might?
Hedonist...
You asked, "Is time served like this common in Canada? Not just the paltry length of sentence, but showing up a couple of days a week? Is that even considered punishment?"
I have been trying to tell anyone willing to listen to me... up here in Canada... we really think we got things figured out. We don't. Our legal system is a pathetic joke and our penal system is no better.
.
Sounds like you want an American style justice system. I say no thanks. Our system may not be perfect but I will take it over our neighbours to the south any day.
Longer and more harsh sentences over rehabilitation is show to not work time and time again. Particularly when the inmates are in for crimes related to drugs and alcohol which they are addicted to.
Exellently put.
Not really. Not at all actually.
When he says:
Longer and more harsh sentences over rehabilitation is show to not work time and time again. Particularly when the inmates are in for crimes related to drugs and alcohol which they are addicted to.
I say:
The recidivism that we experience ad nauseum has placed way too many innocent people in harm's way. Our rehabilitative efforts have failed and, if you even bothered to read the link I provided, many do not care to change knowing they will be back in the public ready to roll in no time at all given the wet tissue stiff sentences we administer to pedophiles and the like.
Who wants to slap their child across the face- let alone slap them with every bit of their might?
Hedonist...
You asked, "Is time served like this common in Canada? Not just the paltry length of sentence, but showing up a couple of days a week? Is that even considered punishment?"
I have been trying to tell anyone willing to listen to me... up here in Canada... we really think we got things figured out. We don't. Our legal system is a pathetic joke and our penal system is no better.
Our criminal element kicks ass. Our weak judicial system routinely fails our law abiding, good citizens because our influential 'bleeding-hearts-with-their-heads-stuffed-squarely-up-their-asses-living-in-la-la-land' seem to think the worst in our society deserve our very, very best efforts.
If little children or others get hurt in the process of affording our worst such generosity... they rationalize that as an unfortunate, but necessary component of a fair legal system, but never stop to think that they might have actually played a role in allowing it to happen.
Don't believe me? Look at this fucking idiot and research his criminal past:
Well done, Canada. Well done! How enlightened and advanced we are.
Thirty, about the slap...I've never been, and from what I know of you, you never would impose that on your children. There are better, more constructive ways to teach and discipline and set an example.
More that I wonder about and related to dignin's post - how is a pedophile rehabilitated? How many repeat offenders must be given leeway?
Huge child porn bust today in NYC. Includes "prominent" or so-called noble professionals. How are these sick fucks - sadly, a drop in the bucket - to be rehabilitated?
I'd rather they be punished, and harshly.
(all 70, yes, 70 of them)
I don't slap my children. I couldn't imagine even wanting to.
And your point is bang on regarding the pedophiles. They aren't rehabilitated. They typically carry multiple offences and the moment they are out... begin to plot again. The fellow in the link I provided has over 50 offences and never once made any attempt to 'rehabilitate'.
Dignin and Hugh...
I guess you guys see things different than me. It would appear you seek to give such people chance after chance- shrugging your shoulders when another child falls prey to their deviant behaviours. I'm not there with you. I would rather protect our children and let the pedophiles hang out with each other behind bars.
Who wants to slap their child across the face- let alone slap them with every bit of their might?
Hedonist...
You asked, "Is time served like this common in Canada? Not just the paltry length of sentence, but showing up a couple of days a week? Is that even considered punishment?"
I have been trying to tell anyone willing to listen to me... up here in Canada... we really think we got things figured out. We don't. Our legal system is a pathetic joke and our penal system is no better.
.
Sounds like you want an American style justice system. I say no thanks. Our system may not be perfect but I will take it over our neighbours to the south any day.
Longer and more harsh sentences over rehabilitation is show to not work time and time again. Particularly when the inmates are in for crimes related to drugs and alcohol which they are addicted to.
For the record... somewhere in between.
And I don't think we should have to choose between two- I think we can at least talk about making an imperfect system better.
Who wants to slap their child across the face- let alone slap them with every bit of their might?
Hedonist...
You asked, "Is time served like this common in Canada? Not just the paltry length of sentence, but showing up a couple of days a week? Is that even considered punishment?"
I have been trying to tell anyone willing to listen to me... up here in Canada... we really think we got things figured out. We don't. Our legal system is a pathetic joke and our penal system is no better.
.
Sounds like you want an American style justice system. I say no thanks. Our system may not be perfect but I will take it over our neighbours to the south any day.
Longer and more harsh sentences over rehabilitation is show to not work time and time again. Particularly when the inmates are in for crimes related to drugs and alcohol which they are addicted to.
For the record... somewhere in between.
And I don't think we should have to choose between two- I think we can at least talk about making an imperfect system better.
Fair enough.
I think we can all agree that things can be better and we should always strive for a better system.
No one likes to see anyone get off easy. Punishing someone does tend to make us feel a lot better than rehabilitation.
But I worry about putting more people in jail for longer (like Harper and his mandatory sentences).
I have a good friend who is a behavioural scientist (who has studied inmates and incarceration for years) who knows much more about this than me. If you are interested in any papers and scientific data I can ask him to send me some reader friendly work and I can pass it along.
I have a good friend who is a behavioural scientist (who has studied inmates and incarceration for years) who knows much more about this than me. If you are interested in any papers and scientific data I can ask him to send me some reader friendly work and I can pass it along.
It was hard to tell from your initial post where you stood with regards to what I was getting at. It seemed as if you were saying you were content with our current system. I don't get that from this post though.
I have read the National Post article and the following excerpts are noteworthy from my perspective:
Sexual offences against children, extortion, violent firearm offences and non-homicide offences causing death were among a handful violent crimes that increased.
How many of these sexual offences against children were committed by registered sex offenders that served their crappy little sentence and were released to harm another child? If some loser rapes a child, I say we place him behind bars and make our very best effort to rehabilitate him. Once certified 'safe'... we release him with some degree of monitoring. Any breach of his conditional release or any attempt to molest another child... he's done: a life behind bars. It doesn't have to be 'hard time', but I do not care to 'roll the dice' with a pedophile who not only has committed an unspeakable crime- he shows a propensity for doing it again. No child should have to accept that risk to satisfy those that insist on treating the deviant as if he was normal.
It set a number of mandatory minimum penalties for drug trafficking and sex crimes against children and got tough on pot producers, young offenders, Canadians imprisoned abroad seeking a transfer to a Canadian institution and ex-cons seeking a pardon.
The drug penalties are harsh- drugs should be legal. Some ex-cons need a break- especially after proving they are worth it. You know where I sit with the approach to sex crimes.
Crime rates being down cannot be attributed to a soft penal code. I would suggest to you- perhaps your friend knows better- that it has more to do with the fact that our country's social systems support many that might be inclined to turn to crime if they did not have the security blanket afforded to them. Jobs are abundant and a good living is possible for anyone who wishes to pursue one in an honest fashion.
I hold the opinion that many of the criminals in Canada are so by choice versus being shaped as a criminal through their experience within their environment. This statement certainly holds true with regards to the people I have known that have run afoul of the law.
Great points, and agree with you on many of them. I think we are pretty much on the same page.
You are correct in your assertion that a better economy and progressive social policies are the main reasons for falling crime levels.
Rehabilitation has been consistently more effective than punishment in reducing recidivism (the likelihood of committing a new offence after release). Of course, making conditions better for everyone so that crime is the lesser option for people would be even better
Who wants to slap their child across the face- let alone slap them with every bit of their might?
Hedonist...
You asked, "Is time served like this common in Canada? Not just the paltry length of sentence, but showing up a couple of days a week? Is that even considered punishment?"
I have been trying to tell anyone willing to listen to me... up here in Canada... we really think we got things figured out. We don't. Our legal system is a pathetic joke and our penal system is no better.
Our criminal element kicks ass. Our weak judicial system routinely fails our law abiding, good citizens because our influential 'bleeding-hearts-with-their-heads-stuffed-squarely-up-their-asses-living-in-la-la-land' seem to think the worst in our society deserve our very, very best efforts.
If little children or others get hurt in the process of affording our worst such generosity... they rationalize that as an unfortunate, but necessary component of a fair legal system, but never stop to think that they might have actually played a role in allowing it to happen.
Don't believe me? Look at this fucking idiot and research his criminal past:
Well done, Canada. Well done! How enlightened and advanced we are.
Thirty, about the slap...I've never been, and from what I know of you, you never would impose that on your children. There are better, more constructive ways to teach and discipline and set an example.
More that I wonder about and related to dignin's post - how is a pedophile rehabilitated? How many repeat offenders must be given leeway?
Huge child porn bust today in NYC. Includes "prominent" or so-called noble professionals. How are these sick fucks - sadly, a drop in the bucket - to be rehabilitated?
I'd rather they be punished, and harshly.
(all 70, yes, 70 of them)
I don't slap my children. I couldn't imagine even wanting to.
And your point is bang on regarding the pedophiles. They aren't rehabilitated. They typically carry multiple offences and the moment they are out... begin to plot again. The fellow in the link I provided has over 50 offences and never once made any attempt to 'rehabilitate'.
Dignin and Hugh...
I guess you guys see things different than me. It would appear you seek to give such people chance after chance- shrugging your shoulders when another child falls prey to their deviant behaviours. I'm not there with you. I would rather protect our children and let the pedophiles hang out with each other behind bars.
What the hell are you on about now? When did i ever say anything about the rights of pedophiles?? We were talking, last i was here, about drug addicts and alcoholics. Please stop with your overdramatic BS man. It only makes you look foolish.
Now, someone who has been pulled over for drunk driving.....what do you suggest? I suggest we do what is in the best interests of society's protection; friends of mine that were busted for it lost their licences on the spot for one year. Neither of them drove illegally during that time. If there was a second offence, i would suggest lifetime ban on driving, and if caught (sober or not), jail time. If caught drunk, then incarceration (not jail, but some other type of facility) with therapy and rehab. Until they are deemed fit to reenter society. Just like mental patients.
Incarcerating someone with an addiction that has not hurt anyone makes zero sense. They need help, not to be beat down so when they get out they are worse people than when they went in.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Well done, Canada. Well done! How enlightened and advanced we are.
(all 70, yes, 70 of them)
I don't slap my children. I couldn't imagine even wanting to.
And your point is bang on regarding the pedophiles. They aren't rehabilitated. They typically carry multiple offences and the moment they are out... begin to plot again. The fellow in the link I provided has over 50 offences and never once made any attempt to 'rehabilitate'.
Dignin and Hugh...
I guess you guys see things different than me. It would appear you seek to give such people chance after chance- shrugging your shoulders when another child falls prey to their deviant behaviours. I'm not there with you. I would rather protect our children and let the pedophiles hang out with each other behind bars.
What the hell are you on about now? When did i ever say anything about the rights of pedophiles?? We were talking, last i was here, about drug addicts and alcoholics. Please stop with your overdramatic BS man. It only makes you look foolish.
Now, someone who has been pulled over for drunk driving.....what do you suggest? I suggest we do what is in the best interests of society's protection; friends of mine that were busted for it lost their licences on the spot for one year. Neither of them drove illegally during that time. If there was a second offence, i would suggest lifetime ban on driving, and if caught (sober or not), jail time. If caught drunk, then incarceration (not jail, but some other type of facility) with therapy and rehab. Until they are deemed fit to reenter society. Just like mental patients.
Incarcerating someone with an addiction that has not hurt anyone makes zero sense. They need help, not to be beat down so when they get out they are worse people than when they went in.
Christ... you talk about being overdramatic... yet you offered an analogy comparing a 'spilled milk slip accident' to a drunk driver killing someone. Geezuz, man.
As good discussions sometimes do, this one shifted towards the appropriate mentality that should be taken towards drunk drivers who kill people. You were part of the discussion that included several comparatives for reference.
After introducing a case that detailed a 'slapping' accident (with no intent to do serious harm), Hedonist asked, "Is time served like this common in Canada? Not just the paltry length of sentence, but showing up a couple of days a week? Is that even considered punishment?"
I then expressed that there is a general theme of 'forgiveness' within Canadian law. To validate that statement, I offered a case (link provided in the original post) that clearly illustrates the dramatic failings of our legal system- making the 'slapper' case punishment seem like a gulag sentence in comparison.
Dignin, after reading that post, essentially said he was comfortable with our system given how bad it might be if it was that of the United States. You applauded this statement by saying something like, "Excellently put."
To me, at that moment in the discussion, that support you offered seemed to imply you were okay with the limp sentences we offer our criminals (in this case pedophiles) and I responded in kind.
And no... it shouldn't be a life sentence driving drunk.
Sure... I'll agree with you: a suspended license is fine for a first offence. A lifetime ban is fine for a second offence.
However... if one isn't so lucky while their dependency trumps their better judgement... and they kill people... sorry... but fuck 'em. They do time. I don't give a shit if some think they have a reasonable excuse (their dependency) to use that some feel affords them a 'pass' for their wrongdoings.
The guy caught in the pub for a few too many- that might have even have made only one mistake- has an excuse too. Regardless, he fucked up. And now... needs to pay the consequences for his poor choices.
If a drunkard rapes someone, do we offer lighter sentences in light of the fact that he was hammered?
Society has gone to great lengths to detail the risks associated with driving drunk. If people ignore them, what is one to do?
Comments
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
More that I wonder about and related to dignin's post - how is a pedophile rehabilitated? How many repeat offenders must be given leeway?
Huge child porn bust today in NYC. Includes "prominent" or so-called noble professionals. How are these sick fucks - sadly, a drop in the bucket - to be rehabilitated?
I'd rather they be punished, and harshly.
(all 70, yes, 70 of them)
When he says:
Longer and more harsh sentences over rehabilitation is show to not work time and time again.
Particularly when the inmates are in for crimes related to drugs and alcohol which they are addicted to.
I say:
The recidivism that we experience ad nauseum has placed way too many innocent people in harm's way. Our rehabilitative efforts have failed and, if you even bothered to read the link I provided, many do not care to change knowing they will be back in the public ready to roll in no time at all given the wet tissue stiff sentences we administer to pedophiles and the like.
And your point is bang on regarding the pedophiles. They aren't rehabilitated. They typically carry multiple offences and the moment they are out... begin to plot again. The fellow in the link I provided has over 50 offences and never once made any attempt to 'rehabilitate'.
Dignin and Hugh...
I guess you guys see things different than me. It would appear you seek to give such people chance after chance- shrugging your shoulders when another child falls prey to their deviant behaviours. I'm not there with you. I would rather protect our children and let the pedophiles hang out with each other behind bars.
And I don't think we should have to choose between two- I think we can at least talk about making an imperfect system better.
I think we can all agree that things can be better and we should always strive for a better system.
No one likes to see anyone get off easy. Punishing someone does tend to make us feel a lot better than rehabilitation.
But I worry about putting more people in jail for longer (like Harper and his mandatory sentences).
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/time-and-punishment-now-canadas-way/article4184777/
Crime rates have been falling steadily for years without massive incarceration.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/07/25/canadian-crime-rate-at-lowest-level-in-40-years-primarily-due-to-dip-in-non-violent-offences/
I have a good friend who is a behavioural scientist (who has studied inmates and incarceration for years) who knows much more about this than me. If you are interested in any papers and scientific data I can ask him to send me some reader friendly work and I can pass it along.
I have read the National Post article and the following excerpts are noteworthy from my perspective:
Sexual offences against children, extortion, violent firearm offences and non-homicide offences causing death were among a handful violent crimes that increased.
How many of these sexual offences against children were committed by registered sex offenders that served their crappy little sentence and were released to harm another child? If some loser rapes a child, I say we place him behind bars and make our very best effort to rehabilitate him. Once certified 'safe'... we release him with some degree of monitoring. Any breach of his conditional release or any attempt to molest another child... he's done: a life behind bars. It doesn't have to be 'hard time', but I do not care to 'roll the dice' with a pedophile who not only has committed an unspeakable crime- he shows a propensity for doing it again. No child should have to accept that risk to satisfy those that insist on treating the deviant as if he was normal.
It set a number of mandatory minimum penalties for drug trafficking and sex crimes against children and got tough on pot producers, young offenders, Canadians imprisoned abroad seeking a transfer to a Canadian institution and ex-cons seeking a pardon.
The drug penalties are harsh- drugs should be legal. Some ex-cons need a break- especially after proving they are worth it. You know where I sit with the approach to sex crimes.
Crime rates being down cannot be attributed to a soft penal code. I would suggest to you- perhaps your friend knows better- that it has more to do with the fact that our country's social systems support many that might be inclined to turn to crime if they did not have the security blanket afforded to them. Jobs are abundant and a good living is possible for anyone who wishes to pursue one in an honest fashion.
I hold the opinion that many of the criminals in Canada are so by choice versus being shaped as a criminal through their experience within their environment. This statement certainly holds true with regards to the people I have known that have run afoul of the law.
You are correct in your assertion that a better economy and progressive social policies are the main reasons for falling crime levels.
Rehabilitation has been consistently more effective than punishment in reducing recidivism (the likelihood of committing a new offence after release). Of course, making conditions better for everyone so that crime is the lesser option for people would be even better
http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.lawsocsci.3.081806.112833
I have the whole paper but would have to email it to you since I have it in PDF format. But I'm sure you get the jist of it.
Now, someone who has been pulled over for drunk driving.....what do you suggest? I suggest we do what is in the best interests of society's protection; friends of mine that were busted for it lost their licences on the spot for one year. Neither of them drove illegally during that time. If there was a second offence, i would suggest lifetime ban on driving, and if caught (sober or not), jail time. If caught drunk, then incarceration (not jail, but some other type of facility) with therapy and rehab. Until they are deemed fit to reenter society. Just like mental patients.
Incarcerating someone with an addiction that has not hurt anyone makes zero sense. They need help, not to be beat down so when they get out they are worse people than when they went in.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
As good discussions sometimes do, this one shifted towards the appropriate mentality that should be taken towards drunk drivers who kill people. You were part of the discussion that included several comparatives for reference.
After introducing a case that detailed a 'slapping' accident (with no intent to do serious harm), Hedonist asked, "Is time served like this common in Canada? Not just the paltry length of sentence, but showing up a couple of days a week? Is that even considered punishment?"
I then expressed that there is a general theme of 'forgiveness' within Canadian law. To validate that statement, I offered a case (link provided in the original post) that clearly illustrates the dramatic failings of our legal system- making the 'slapper' case punishment seem like a gulag sentence in comparison.
Dignin, after reading that post, essentially said he was comfortable with our system given how bad it might be if it was that of the United States. You applauded this statement by saying something like, "Excellently put."
To me, at that moment in the discussion, that support you offered seemed to imply you were okay with the limp sentences we offer our criminals (in this case pedophiles) and I responded in kind.
Sure... I'll agree with you: a suspended license is fine for a first offence. A lifetime ban is fine for a second offence.
However... if one isn't so lucky while their dependency trumps their better judgement... and they kill people... sorry... but fuck 'em. They do time. I don't give a shit if some think they have a reasonable excuse (their dependency) to use that some feel affords them a 'pass' for their wrongdoings.
The guy caught in the pub for a few too many- that might have even have made only one mistake- has an excuse too. Regardless, he fucked up. And now... needs to pay the consequences for his poor choices.
If a drunkard rapes someone, do we offer lighter sentences in light of the fact that he was hammered?
Society has gone to great lengths to detail the risks associated with driving drunk. If people ignore them, what is one to do?